Author Topic: Staring blankly at my keys. (Read 5555 times)

InSanCen · « **on:** Mon, 18 January 2010, 16:57:24 »

Well, I'm just about to pull the trigger on a set of black blanks for my M13, along with a new SDL cable. Mine are about dead after 15 years of being pulled around various systems.

I'm ordering the US set for obvious reasons, but getting some Euro enter keys as well. My thinking being that I can, at a later date, use them on my 1391406's. Another thought did strike me though. As, underneath it all, the UK and US 139140x's are identical, could I use the whole set on one of my 1391406's? I tend to go back to it more than my M13, and with a new SDL cable it will have a whole new lease of life.

If my thinking is way off on this, please correct me.

@Bruce (keyboardco.com)
I still want some keys off of yourself (well, 2 actually), but I need a set now, as the lettering on my M13 is starting to wear.

ch_123 · « **Reply #1 on:** Mon, 18 January 2010, 17:14:04 »

Getting a new set of M13 keys is going to involve getting a new M13... There's just nobody who makes white on black keys for the Model M these days.

ch_123 · « **Reply #2 on:** Mon, 18 January 2010, 17:27:54 »

There wasn't.

InSanCen · « **Reply #3 on:** Mon, 18 January 2010, 18:07:45 »

Quote from: ch_123;151868

Getting a new set of M13 keys is going to involve getting a new M13... There's just nobody who makes white on black keys for the Model M these days.

Hence why I am getting a replacement set to type on, as while I am fixing my F, it will be my daily driver. The L is the worst, I'll see if I can get a picture of it. I am not sure if The daughter has been at the key with something pointy or sharp, (fairly likely), but it has noticeable bit's missing from the printing. The rest of the keys seem fine. I would like them to stay that way.

InSanCen · « **Reply #4 on:** Mon, 18 January 2010, 18:32:23 »

New, working linkage That will teach me to organise my stuff...

Be warned that this picture shows dust etc under the keybed. This is what happens when you take a picture of a black object with a flash you cannot control (Pics are from my phone). Everything is shown up. I have included a few keys around the L so you can compare for yourself.

InSanCen · « **Reply #5 on:** Tue, 19 January 2010, 01:38:31 »

Should be working now. I realised I had random 'board pictures everywhere, and went on a spring clean. I also forgot it will break any direct links... Oh joy...

sethstorm · « **Reply #6 on:** Tue, 19 January 2010, 04:27:15 »

Quote from: InSanCen;151885

New, working linkage That will teach me to organise my stuff...

Be warned that this picture shows dust etc under the keybed. This is what happens when you take a picture of a black object with a flash you cannot control (Pics are from my phone). Everything is shown up. I have included a few keys around the L so you can compare for yourself.

The key lettering is still there, but I have a similar issue w/ my M key. Either you're going to get to be an expert hand at carving out phoneboard keys, or you're destined for yet another M13.

What I'd like to know is what the minimum order (in sets) is for those kind of keys from those here who can make them. The capability is certainly out there, but I'm not sure the demand's been made clear.

Quote from: ripster;151881

I'm not too surprised. Don't send your daughter to her room.

M13 printing technology at 200x

Looks more like keyboard chow.

microsoft windows · « **Reply #7 on:** Tue, 19 January 2010, 08:16:59 »

Quote from: kishy;151872

This brings up my question again about if there were 2-piece black keys or not. Evidence is suggesting not, but it'd be nice to know for sure one way or the other.

You can custom-order black key caps for your IBM, but that's as close as it gets to black 2-piece keys.

ch_123 · « **Reply #8 on:** Tue, 19 January 2010, 12:11:00 »

You can? Where from?

itlnstln · « **Reply #9 on:** Tue, 19 January 2010, 12:17:56 »

I think he means that you can get a replacement set from Unicomp, but those are one-piece, IIRC. That is, unless Fentek is offering just the black caps for the two piece.

ch_123 · « **Reply #10 on:** Tue, 19 January 2010, 12:21:18 »

I think Ripster said that they had no black keycaps whatsoever.

I wish Unicomp would have some sense and contract some Asian manufacturer to churn out black, lettered BS keycaps. They'd probably be better made than Unicomp's ones anyway.

itlnstln · « **Reply #11 on:** Tue, 19 January 2010, 12:44:24 »

Quote from: ripster;152072

Somebody call them up and ask if the keys are PBT like the Topre's supposedly are (at least that's what Youtube said - pretty flimsy evidence).

From the pics posted here, the Topre keys don't really look much like Cherry keys (as far as things like finish and luster go), so I would doubt they are PBT (and certainly not POM), but who knows, I don't work in plastics manufacturing.

There goes that deductive reasoning again.

ch_123 · « **Reply #12 on:** Tue, 19 January 2010, 13:03:46 »

What's up with those black Unicomp keys? In pictures, they look like worn out Filco keys...

itlnstln · « **Reply #13 on:** Tue, 19 January 2010, 13:16:26 »

Quote from: ripster;152081

You may not like the way Filcos get shiny but they sure look sharp new with the matte finish.

I'll second that. If they would just hold that finish...

Filcos look money when they are brand new, but they show their age far too quickly. Stress, excessive exposure to sunlight and smoking are not good for you.

InSanCen · « **Reply #14 on:** Tue, 19 January 2010, 13:22:28 »

It's Chuck at Unicomp that I have been talking to. They have Blank, Black 1 piece keys. Trying to get an firm, inclusive price shipped to the UK, with a few extra's (SDL Cable, Coloured Euro enter keys for the 1391406's), is a task however.

InSanCen · « **Reply #15 on:** Tue, 19 January 2010, 15:05:20 »

Quote from: ripster;152087

Ask him what plastic they use in the keys. ABS or PBT or whatever. Tell him Geekhack sent you and he might not know off the top of his head but usually is happy to ask around.

Done. I pimped the site, and dropped some not so subtle hints about making a new Mini too... ;-)

itlnstln · « **Reply #16 on:** Tue, 19 January 2010, 15:09:48 »

Quote from: InSanCen;152112

I... dropped some not so subtle hints about making a new Mini too... ;-)

Uh oh.

InSanCen · « **Reply #17 on:** Tue, 19 January 2010, 16:11:09 »

Quote from: itlnstln;152114

Uh oh.

Well, I thought they were subtle, but my other half says that I am as subtle as a brick to the teeth, so I am assuming they weren't.

microsoft windows · « **Reply #18 on:** Tue, 19 January 2010, 17:29:12 »

Quote from: ripster;152072

Well, they may have black keycaps for two piece keys but I kinda doubt it. The history of these Unicomp Black Blanks is they were cranking them out M13 style but got too many customer complaints so they switched to the grey sparkly ones with dyesub as a compromise.

As a result they have boxes of blank keys that didn't go through the process. They appear to be just working off inventory of a lot of old stuff so don't get your hopes up unless their cash flow improves. This info was from Chuck at Unicomp.

Somebody call them up and ask if the keys are PBT like the Topre's supposedly are (at least that's what Youtube said - pretty flimsy evidence).

You can get black key caps custom-made here.

ch_123 · « **Reply #19 on:** Tue, 19 January 2010, 17:32:06 »

Again, Ripster was talking with MsKeyboard and she said they had no black keys whatsoever. I'm sure they could provide them if you ordered in very very large bulk quantities...

InSanCen · « **Reply #20 on:** Tue, 19 January 2010, 18:01:29 »

Having worked in an industrial environment for a while, a SWAG says it's not worth firing up the line for less than a thousand units (sets of keys).

InSanCen · « **Reply #21 on:** Wed, 20 January 2010, 16:13:10 »

Just had a reply from Chuck.

The material used is PBT, (260c melting point). Hope that's of some help.

itlnstln · « **Reply #22 on:** Wed, 20 January 2010, 16:35:03 »

Stong work, InSanCen. Ripster can sleep now.

itlnstln · « **Reply #23 on:** Wed, 20 January 2010, 16:40:49 »

Quote from: ripster;152437

Filcos would be better if they used PBT.

Seconded. Majestouch, pleeeeeeeease pass this on to Diatec. Hell, they could even make a keycap upgrade like a "Pro" series that you could sell for, say, $40. They could even make the NKRO 'boards with the PBT caps since those are their higher-end 'boards and use the regular caps for the regular 'boards. It could be magic.

microsoft windows · « **Reply #24 on:** Wed, 20 January 2010, 17:53:20 »

You know, speaking of N-key rollover, I did some more testing on my Model M5-2 and found the home keys to have 4-key rollover.

InSanCen · « **Reply #25 on:** Wed, 20 January 2010, 18:16:54 »

x-key rollover is defined as the minimum number of keys it takes to lock up. In the M's case, it is 2. The position on the keyboard is largely irrelevant. Just because keyboard a will take all the numpad keys, but only 2 alpha's does NOT mean it has 9KRO, it has 2KRO

Having never used an M5-2, I can't say 100% it is 2KRO, but I suspect the matrix and controller are largely similar, if not virtually identical to an M.

Look, I love the M's, and BS in general, but you defend their known weaknesses too much. Just chill out, there are other keyboards out there, and they are better at some things. When you get to availability, value and longevity, then the M's are pretty much unassailable. However, you need to stop trying to pigeon-hole them into spaces they won't go. Although I do game on one, I am not a serious gamer, and I have spent literally years getting used to what the can and cannot do in a game. Race Driver:Grid is not a good game to play on keys, but you can scream around like a maniac in NFS:MW. UT99 is about the limit of FPS games, and I only own in that game on an M because I have been playing it on an M since it's launch, OVER 10 YEARS AGO!

tl;dr
The M's are good, but have limitations. Get over it.

ch_123 · « **Reply #26 on:** Wed, 20 January 2010, 18:55:16 »

M5-2 = 1391401 + Trackball.

InSanCen · « **Reply #27 on:** Thu, 21 January 2010, 16:30:25 »

Quote from: ch_123;152508

M5-2 = 1391401 + Trackball.

2KRO then, IIRC.

I'm still not decided if mswindows is just a epic troll, misguided, or retarded. I think we can confirm the predictable bit though, most any "spec me" thread has him recommending an M regardless of what the OP's requirements actually are.

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Author Topic: Staring blankly at my keys. (Read 5555 times)