Finger pain on membrane ergonomic, not on ThinkPad. Full keyboard recommendations?

[muchadoaboutnothing]

Sorry for the long title. I'll make a shorter summary for the impatient and put my long, nostalgic ramble after.

Short: I like my ThinkPad T61P keyboard, which causes me less pain than my Ergonomic MS membrane keyboard. I press the keys decently hard, but I have dormmates (if it's really CLICKY-CLACKY they may hate me), and I'm afraid of keys that require too much resistance. Someone suggested keyboards with Cherry Brown Switches. What should I get? "Quality only hurts once", etc., but I AM a college student- every dollar counts.

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So, if you went on to read the diatribe about when I learned to type, to the present, you're at the right place.

So it's quite a few years ago, when I was in Junior High School. We have a typing class in 6th grade. Most looked at the keys, but a few of us tried to do it legitimately - myself included. At the end, I had completed all the lessons before anyone else, and I was a speed demon. We had Model Ms, and when I was pounding the keys, people would stare- when I was feeling inspired, the click-clacking of the keys would garner me stares from anyone seating near . It was helpful, as quite a few kids gave me their handwritten assignments or typed assignments with revisions and I could type them up + save them to a floppy in a couple minutes, and make a couple bucks in the process

High School comes- no more model Ms, just Dells with slim keyboards. Godawful mush. I guess I got used to it- at home, we had replaced the keyboards too, and over time, I kind of got used to it.

In high school, I did not have a laptop that I brought to school. That changed in college, when we were leased a required Dell Latitude D series.

Ugh. They're horrible. Beyond horrible. Keys are mush, they're not durable at all. I'm on my ninth keyboard.

I get a desktop for myself. And an MS Ergonomic keyboard, because I had noticed over the past couple years that I suffer finger pain when I type for long periods (it's actually bothering me right now- I've been typing all day on an MS Ergonomic keyboard). I'm on my second- the first was replaced in warranty when a couple of the keys just gave. No improvement with pain on the second.

So I get a ThinkPad T61p by chance (I do PC repair, and I do a lot for one guy. He decided to upgrade his PC relatively early, and gave me the T61p for all the stuff). And the keyboard is great. When my desktop required repair and I was solely on the T61P, my finger pain was gone. I could type on it all day.

So now I realize that not only do I hate the feel of my keyboard, but the ThinkPad keyboard (despite not being ergonomic) is more comfortable to type on for long periods of time.

Now I'm lookinjg into a keyboard online. A friend on IM (don't know in real life) tells me that I should look into a keyboard with Cherry Brown switches if I like the feel of my T61P.

I start Googling, I get nowhere. Tons of brands, confusing information...I have no idea where to go.

What should I buy? Thanks for any and all advice.

[Rajagra]

Try getting an IBM Travel Keyboard with UltraNav cheap off eBay. It uses an actual Thinkpad keyboard in a slim desktop enclosure. They sometimes sell very cheap because the Trackpad at the bottom is too odd for most people, but you can disable it if you load the drivers (or use it for scrolling or whatever.) There are versions with or without number pads.

There is a newer version without the Trackpad, but looking at reviews, it seems to have a different feel and has some bugs (shift acts as if it stays down too long.)

[Nonmouse]

Welcome to Geekhack!  Incredibly detailed first post- which is good.  Geekhackers want to know every little detail of your keyboard experience...

The T60/61 is considered to be one of the best laptop keyboards around.  It's the usual scissors-mechanism-over-membrane keyboard, but they got all the details just right (or better) - which is pretty much the description of any good keyboard.

As to what desktop keyboard would be good for you, I'd second the Cherry browns recommendation- I'm typing this on a G80-8113HRBUS, with browns.  My WPM has never been as high as yours (and I still kick myself for not taking typing in high school- I was in the era just after typing was considered an important skill- when everybody thought that computers were going to make typing obsolete), but it's at least twice what is used to be on a crappy dome board, and still significantly higher now than on cheap boards.  The Cherry browns have a low activation (45cN, about what most notebooks have) and a butter-smooth motion, with a light tactile "bump" a little under halfway down, where the key actually fires.  If I'm paying attention, I don't bottom the keys out, and it's almost completely silent.  If I'm not paying attention, or trying to type fast (for me), I bottom out and it's about as noisy as a rubber-dome keyboard.

Cherry ML switches have been used in laptops- they're a low-travel (3mm) linear switch, with a 45cN  actuation force.  I've actually been considering trying to retro fit an ML keyboard into my laptop...

There are also Cherry MX whites (or clears), that are a non-clicky, tactile switch, but heavier than the browns.  The activation force for whites is 55cN.  They're similar to the browns, but heavier, and, IMNSHO, a little rougher, overall, not just a more noticeable "bump".  I don't like them so much- I actually can't think of anyone on GH that really does; they're kind of an "in-between" switch- not clicky, but not a light switch either.

Next is Cherry MX blues, which are the "clicky" cherry switch.  They're a little heavier than the browns- 50cN, a bit lighter than whites, but they have an audible "click" at the activation point.  I think the tactile click is more (tactility) noticeable than with Cherry whites, but I'm not sure everyone here would agree with me.

Cherry also makes a linear MX switch, which is black.  It has the the heaviest activation force of any Cherry switch- 60cN.  Like the description sounds, it's linear- the same force all the way down the switch, rather than: lighter; building up to the activation force; dropping off.  Gamers like them a lot- they're good for mashing the keys.

Then there are ALPS, which come in all the varieties that Cherries do- plus some.  I refer you to the Wiki (and the Cherry Wiki, for that matter.)

Plus there are desktop boards with scissors switches, MEIs, SMKs, Monterreys, Cherry MYs, other switch-over-membrane (like the model M), rubber domes (some of which don't suck too bad), etc, etc...

And, of course, the switches are only part of the equation- the board itself, and the way the switches are mounted, contribute to the typing experience (how much depends on who you ask- some people swear by  plate-mounted Cherries, others by PCB-mounted; plus there's the criticism of the PCBs on some boards- they can be (according to some GHers, at least) too thin, or too flexible.

Then there's he case, and the keycaps, and the cord and.....

If you're in a densely urban area in America (New York, LA, Boston, etc.), or just where you happen to be near some Geekhackers, you might be able to find someone(s) to let you try out different boards/switches.

Again, welcome!

[Arc'xer]

As always you should first check out the wiki, become a more informed consumer.

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Cherry+switches+and+boards

How they operate

Great diagram I found at overclock.net



The browns are quite light they actuate at 45cN(grams) and are popular with light typist or those wanting tactility without the noise.

Just to point out not all mechanical keyboards cost so much. You can easily find in ebay or someone here on GH. A Cherry MX-11800 which is a cherry mx brown keyboard, considering you mentioned you only type and not game I think the 11800 from seeing the posts can do typing and a few multiple key presses standard stuff. They usually go for 15-30 dollars depending on the seller.

It's not high-quality or anything and it's layout is a bit strange but cheap way of getting switches either for a taste of the tea axis or for cherry mx red switches(black housing with brown springs).

Also you mentioned Model Ms those keyboards are still around and still running depends on which model you got but aside from the modern model M clone the unicomp, many still sell model Ms at various affordable prices depending on rarity or odd models price may change.

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=IBM+Wiki

and

http://www.clickeykeyboards.com/

Just remember the actuation force of the Ms are a bit higher than most rubber dome and MX brown/blues. Around 60-70cN.

[keyb_gr]

Be aware that browns are pretty light indeed, there are people who notoriously miss the tactile point or cannot rest their fingers on them.
Neither of that should be an issue with blues, at the same time they're still quite easy on the fingers - typing with them feels nearly effortless.
Clears, about middle of the pack, are a decent compromise switch when noise levels are critical.
Buckling spring boards are a bit on the heavier side, but their very precise (and smooth) action makes them an old fav of mine.

I'm a bit of a heavy typist as well, and for the last few years MX blues and BS have been firmly occupying the top positions of my favorite switches list (they also proved the most popular options in a switch poll here). With some nice two-shot keycaps on the blues, I'd say they're about equal now.

[DreymaR]

According to this principle, exercise and sex are bad.

The trick is to avoid bottoming out with a high impact, and not have to twist anything in unhealthy angles. As long you have that down, it should be fine.

[DreymaR]

Muchadoaboutnothing: Finger pain? Wrist pain? Use a wide Colemak layout, and preferably ensure good underarm support. Or a DataHand (with Colemak like WebWit uses) if you can afford it and like the thought.

I think that's very useful measures too, besides getting a good keyboard.

[keyb_gr]

True, tackling ergonomics usually involves more than just swapping out the 'board. Sitting posture should be examined, too.

[gator456]

After 30+ years of typing I am being forced to learn a DataHand because of RSI pain.  The DataHand is a real freaking pain to learn but it is a real solution to RSI.  Before purchasing the DataHand I did quite a bit of reading.  What I learned is that there multiple factors that contribute to RSI.  You want to eliminate as many of them as you can.

- position of hands.  You want to minimize extension, deviation and pronation (great video on safetype.com)
- keyboard ergonomics - split vs curved vs tiefighter.  
- travel distance of fingers Dvorak vs QWERTY vs Colemak (I read some posts where people said that Dvorak alone solved their RSI issues)
- limbering of hand/arms - There are multiple web sites that say RSI can be resolved with massage alone.  Try some of the many stretches listed on the web.  
- your mouse - does your mouse hand hurt more?  Bad ergonomics on a mouse can be just a destructive as a keyboard.

[hyperlinked]

muchado, you mentioned you have finger pain. Did you specifically mean finger pain? Most people tend to have wrist or hand pain. Do other parts of your hand and arm hurt too or just your fingers?

What do you do most of the time when you're on the keyboard? Do you just type? Do you use a lot of shortcuts for say like a graphics editing or video editing program? Are you having pain in just your left or right arms?

There's a lot of advice that we're all going to throw at you. Here's the first rule you should observe. Forget about the word Ergonomic. It's meaningless in so far as concrete scientific results are concerned. It doesn't mean that an ergonomic product doesn't have its benefits, but what's ergonomic for your usage habits and your body may not necessarily be the same as for other people. It's also used to market products that have funny shapes.

The most important thing for you is to figure out what seems to cause you the least amount of pain. If you've already found a kind of board that is working for you already, just do the easy thing and stick to it.

There are many many ways in which you can injure your hands, but there's only one way that is true for everyone and Ripster brought it up. You do anything enough times, the odds are, you'll have problems and hopefully you can manage your symptoms through a combination of the right equipment, good posture, stretching, and rest. Ice can be your friend too if the source of your pain isn't stemming from circulatory  issues.

If you're a college student and you're already suffering from pain, then you're probably going to have to learn how to manage it as a chronic condition. You can't ever adopt an attitude that you're healed. This kind of thing never totally heals unless you stop doing it completely and even then it can come back. A lot of self awareness will go a long way. If you notice that a certain kind of activity makes your symptoms worse, you'll have to find ways to limit that activity or do it a different way.

I personally type on a Filco with Cherry Browns and I have speech recognition software as a backup. Once I start noticing that my left wrist is acting up to the point that it'll be a problem, I put on my headset and rest my hand before it becomes a serious problem again. I can't program through speech recognition, but I find that if I compose emails and other documents with my voice instead of my fingers, my wrist recovers enough within a week that I can resume my normal use again.