Author Topic: Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards  (Read 5983 times)

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Offline travnewmatic

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« on: Mon, 05 April 2010, 22:01:00 »
Hello all!

I'm taking a public speaking class and our next assignment is to create a persuasive presentation (specifically, proposition of policy).  

My central idea is this:  Texas State University should use mechanical keyboards in computer labs in place of rubber dome keyboards.

I know the pros and cons of rubber dome keyboards and how they compare to mechanical keyboards, but I need sources.  

I was wondering if there are any case studies or articles out there that have been published that document the benefits of switching to mechanical keyboards.  I know that lots of businesses use mechanical keyboards for POS applications.

What are yall's thoughts on this?

Thank you for your input!

-Travis Newman
Latest addition: KBT Race 75% (Cherry Brown), IBM Model M (white label 1991), Cherry G80-3000 (Blue Cherries), Unicomp Customizer (Black on black, blank), DSI Big Font Keyboard (Alps linear)

Offline Nonmouse

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 05 April 2010, 22:20:00 »
I know I've seen some studies on repetitive motion injuries and efficiency related to mechanical switch keyboards, but I haven't any on tap.  You might try searching "repetitive motion injury" and "mechanical keyboard" or variants thereof.

Or just wait for a few more people to chime in...

Offline travnewmatic

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 05 April 2010, 22:46:02 »
Quote from: Nonmouse;169929
I know I've seen some studies on repetitive motion injuries and efficiency related to mechanical switch keyboards, but I haven't any on tap.  You might try searching "repetitive motion injury" and "mechanical keyboard" or variants thereof.

Or just wait for a few more people to chime in...


I'll do both! :D
Latest addition: KBT Race 75% (Cherry Brown), IBM Model M (white label 1991), Cherry G80-3000 (Blue Cherries), Unicomp Customizer (Black on black, blank), DSI Big Font Keyboard (Alps linear)

Offline Phaedrus2129

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 05 April 2010, 22:59:15 »
Facts? We don't need no steenkin' facts.



As for businesses using mechanical POS boards, I think that's more for durability reasons; they buy it once and don't ever need a replacement. The Cherry MY boards are very common in POS applications, partly because MY switches are just about invincible and will probably outlast a buckling spring switch. Too bad they're about as pleasant to type on as jagged metal.
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Offline travnewmatic

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 05 April 2010, 23:08:31 »
Quote from: ripster;169934
I just posted this repetitive injury study in another thread.

Frankly I think the current state of the art in research stinks so you may have to wing your speech class like I always did.  This skill BTW is essential in any business.

The other problem is that if you do the math I'm pretty sure it does NOT make sense to use mechanical keyboards instead of just forcing students to use mushy keyboards until too many keys stop working.


since this is entirely hypothetical, maybe i could base everything on the ergonomics...  and not on cost.  and yeah, that whole winging it thing...  i have some time to do this speech so maybe i could do that, but this is something that i'm definitely interested in :D  i like spreading the mechanical keyboard love.

and yeah i guess i can imagine that.  mechanical keyboards are pretty expensive...

Quote from: Phaedrus2129;169935
Facts? We don't need no steenkin' facts.



As for businesses using mechanical POS boards, I think that's more for durability reasons; they buy it once and don't ever need a replacement. The Cherry MY boards are very common in POS applications, partly because MY switches are just about invincible and will probably outlast a buckling spring switch. Too bad they're about as pleasant to type on as jagged metal.


i've seen cherry keyboards all over POS.  hell, they even use them in our schools bookstore.  I've never typed on one though.  i have the G80-3000 with cherry blue's...  which i think are MX, not MY?  (in fact thats actually what i'm using right now)
Latest addition: KBT Race 75% (Cherry Brown), IBM Model M (white label 1991), Cherry G80-3000 (Blue Cherries), Unicomp Customizer (Black on black, blank), DSI Big Font Keyboard (Alps linear)

Offline travnewmatic

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 05 April 2010, 23:32:04 »
ripster,

i think that article is very interesting and i'm reading it right now...  maybe its because its late at night but i was wondering if you could use a different set of words to describe what you found from your study.  (i'd like to use your article as a source :D)
Latest addition: KBT Race 75% (Cherry Brown), IBM Model M (white label 1991), Cherry G80-3000 (Blue Cherries), Unicomp Customizer (Black on black, blank), DSI Big Font Keyboard (Alps linear)

Offline Arc'xer

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 00:18:26 »
I think the biggest hurdle is monetary. Manyak said I believe it was either here at GH and on OCN or both a monetary figure which is good, http://www.overclock.net/8790019-post16.html. Let's assume your computer labs I assume use Dell since dell has a pretty nice grab on schools and whatnot. I could be wrong you didn't mention which brand.

But lets say dell, lets assume in bulk they cut the price per board from 50 dollars to 40 or so. Let's say those keyboards are replaced every 3-4 years some wear and tear policy or whatever. Say dell settled some deal to have a recycle trade back for a lower price and instead of paying the 40 dollars it's 35. In those 3-4 years, that's about 10-14 dollars per year with 35 at the 3rd or 4th, so in reality it's more like 45-49 per year assuming there is some deal in place.

And even if the department just goes out and buys keyboards or has them ordered it's still 30-50 dollars for a new keyboard. Assuming that they aren't those 2-3 dollar keyboards because then it becomes cents per year. But considering quality I assume they want a few good years of use they'd most likely pay slightly more for a higher premium.

Considering mechanical keyboards go from 60-200 dollars. And can last decades thing is at first they seem expensive. But as time goes on they save you money. Say a cherry mx switch keyboard costs 110 dollars. That's a lot of money on paper, compared to the deal say dell would offer in bulk and policy. If we say that cherry mx keyboard lasts 23 years. 110/23 would be about 4-5 dollars per year. But considering that money is the issue that is most bickered about. Plus the MX switches are fairly cheap and easy to fix with the right information.

Someone will go out and be like "Why in the **** do we need to put so much money on keyboards etc.etc. Not realizing the long-term saving, short-term wise it's an investment. Especially in this day of economical turmoil.

I think this is the biggest problem; equally to the ergonomic factor.

Offline itlnstln

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 08:08:22 »
Southwest... err... Texas State?  You guys have computers?  I thought all you guys do out there at A&M Jr. is drink, **** and go to Austin to party because San Marcos is such a **** hole.


Just kidding, man.  Well except for the whole San Marcos being a **** hole part.  It was funny. When I was going to UT, you would see all these hot chicks walking around campus before the Fall semester. After you would talk to them for a few minutes, you would find out they all went to Southwest (now Texas State) or ACC.


Offline Nonmouse

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 12:29:35 »
Quote from: ripster;170063
I find props persuasive in a presentation.

Show Image


That'd be one big keyboard....

Offline Otterclock

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 13:12:13 »
It's for a speech class, so obviously the point is to make a case for it by any means, and I'm sure you can, but just for discussion's sake. Wall of text inc...

I'm in charge of classroom technology at a state university. I've installed a couple thousand keyboards into classrooms, media labs, study rooms, libraries etc. Cost wise, membranes are the clear winner. Our keyboards are more likely to be retired in full working condition and replaced by newer ones that come packaged with the new computers, than replaced due to breaking. Most replacement due to breakage is the result of trauma to the keyboard or spilled drinks, not normal wear and tear. We have hundreds of membrane boards over seven years old that work flawlessly. OEM membranes that come with education/institutional computers tend to be VERY tough, unlike consumer-end logitechs and such. And they are dirt cheap. We get new computers long before the keyboards on the old ones break, and the new comps come with keyboards; we'll get charged the same even if we ask for them to be left out.

As far as ergonomics/repetitive strain issues: Yes, mechanicals. Here's the problem, keyboards in an educational setting are rarely used at length by one person, but instead at short intervals by multiple people. Few people sit for hours at these boards. In a business setting, I think this argument is more easily made since employees use the boards for entire shifts.

Noise. Often the boards are used in rooms with dozens of people typing away; libraries, study rooms, labs.

Since most of our keyboards are retired before they falter, and replaced mostly when subject to accident, I can't justify spending 10x as much on mechanicals that are just as likely to befall accident, and then cost us 10x as much to replace. I don't believe a 3lb keyboard made up of 104 independent multi-part switches is gonna survive a 5 foot drop onto concrete better than a 1lb board comprised of a sheet of rubber with nubs molded in. (actually our best boards are about 2lbs).

Also here's a big one: Theft. It's a university, nuff said. Keyboards are difficult to secure.




Gateway KB-2961. Thing is a BEAST. Metal backplate, solid case, and pretty low force keys once broken in. I've seen these things thrown across rooms and be no worse for wear. About $5 to replace. I have over 400 of them in rooms and maybe have seen two malfunction from normal wear and even then I suspect shenanigans.

However I am STILL trying to get the university to invest in 20-30 topre boards for a special writing lab used by doctoral candidates doing their dissertation. And of course, one extra for me to "evaluate.":smile:
« Last Edit: Tue, 06 April 2010, 13:27:31 by Otterclock »
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Offline kishy

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 13:16:32 »
Quote from: travnewmatic;169937
schools bookstore.


Is that, by chance, a Follett store as with my college?

We've got Cherry POS boards but they certainly don't click. Can't find an opening to ask to see the sticker. I believe they're the Dell OEM variety as they're attached to Dell systems.
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Offline nraymond

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 13:20:00 »
Quote from: Arc'xer;169950
Someone will go out and be like "Why in the **** do we need to put so much money on keyboards etc.etc. Not realizing the long-term saving, short-term wise it's an investment. Especially in this day of economical turmoil.


I have a theory that one of the reasons membrane keyboards are popular in some businesses are exactly because they are cheap and effectively disposable - I work IT in an industry where lots of people 'crunch' for long hours, work weekends etc. and the company gets people food however there is no cafeteria type space to hold the whole company, just a kitchen with a few tables and a nearby conference room, so lots of people eat at their desks.  I've tried to clean some of those keyboards, and they just get disgusting.  It's probably made worse by the endless supply of free soda (fizzy drinks coating the keyboards with their aerosol fizz every day...) As much as I really like mechanical keyboards and use them at home, at least in a business where employees eat and drink at their desks/over their keyboards, sadly there will probably always be a market for a cheap, disposable keyboard.

Offline itlnstln

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 13:25:52 »
This.  If I were running my company, I wouldn't buy these slobs a nice keyboard.


Offline Otterclock

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 13:33:23 »
In a business setting I can see arguing for mechanical boards, definitely. But don't forget about workplace noise pollution. It seems silly, but people would cry up a storm. Yes businesses used to use loud boards back in the day, but you also used to be able to smoke on airplanes.

Also I can imagine employees stealing their keyboard and replacing it with a Logitech, ha.
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Offline itlnstln

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 13:33:43 »
Quote from: webwit;170082
I would. Peopleware principle. If you have guys on the road, you don't give them the cheapest throw-away Chinese cars to replace them when the ashtrays are full. They will be ill-motivated and walk. If my expensive people would be using keyboards many hours each day, it would be economically stupid to give them cheap crap.

Then it gets back to what people consider to be nice keyboards and the whole circular argument of the blah, blah, blah.  In other words, I see your point.


Offline Otterclock

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 13:37:40 »
If you really want to make a case for cost-saving reliability/longevity: hall effect. Well maybe not cost saving.
« Last Edit: Tue, 06 April 2010, 13:41:44 by Otterclock »
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Offline Otterclock

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 13:45:05 »
coffee is for closers.
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Offline itlnstln

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 13:46:03 »
I'm having coffee right now.  It's been a long month, and my Chi is ****ed up.


Offline didjamatic

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 13:52:43 »
Most modern keyboards are a bundled item, bought with a PC.  The PC segment has become so competitive and margins so thin that an expensive keyboard is not an option for a low or middle of the road system.  But, they should offer a higher priced alternative if you want to upgrade.

I think the mentality is that consumers expect simple, cheap input devices that come bundled with their computers.  If they want higher end input devices, they assume the users will purchase them separately.

Management and higher tend to have aftermarket keyboards that they cycle through nearly as quickly as computers.  Companies seem to expect to spend a little more on them than the lower end users.  And if you're going to replace the PC every 3 years anyway, they just plan on doing the keyboard as part of the package and stick to cheap items... unless of course you're management, then you get perks like better peripherals, larger screens, better office chairs, etc.

Now a cash register/point of sale device is designed to have more than 3 years of production, hence the extra money spent on a mechanical keyboard.  It would be very expensive to have an airport terminal, bank teller or cash register down for service or have incorrect data entry from a worn out rubber dome, so the extra money is spent on something that will perform more consistently and not need replacement.

What you might want to convey is that people don't know what they're missing.  The keyboard and mouse are our only physical interface to interact with a computer.   The screen being our visual interface.  Upgrading the physical interfaces with a computer to something that is pleasing to use can create an experience that people can really enjoy.  Typing can be fun again the way it was on typewriters and in the early days of computing.  We're stuck in cubicles and offices all day and something as simple as a keyboard upgrade can improve the quality of life for many people.  Hit on that and you might get a better response.
« Last Edit: Tue, 06 April 2010, 13:56:27 by didjamatic »
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Offline itlnstln

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 13:55:41 »
We have been out-of-town, busy, etc. the last four weeks, and I have not had a chance to get a few days to relax/sleep.  This "life" stuff sucks.


Offline Ulysses31

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 15:31:17 »
Most people have been brainwashed (by those big loveable corporations that tell us all what to like or we can sod off) into thinking that the less tactility an interface has, the better it is.  Coming soon, the Apple-themed smart-car with a gesture-based steering wheel... yeah that's right, I blame THEM for popularising the thoroughly unpleasant touch-screen interface that's only tolerable for very short data-entry tasks.  Maybe LCARS too :P.  

In all seriousness though, good luck with that presentation, but it's often too much for people to believe that an old way of doing things was better than something fresh and new.  I think the main obstacle you'd face is getting people to accept the increased noise when there are hundreds of keyboards in the same room.

Offline itlnstln

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 15:34:28 »
Quote from: Ulysses31;170131
it's often too much for people to believe that an old way of doing things was better than something fresh and new.

I run into this all the time.  The ironic thing about this statement is that mechanical keyboards are the old way of doing things.  Point taken, though.


Offline wellington1869

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 16:20:41 »
if you ask me the biggest hurdle mechanicals face in terms of institutional acceptance comes from the lack of innovation in switch design (quieter mechanicals? mechanicals for laptops? cost efficiencies in design and production?) by mechanical switch companies themselves. But thats an ax i've ground to a nub.

If you want to sell mechanicals in this presentation tho, maybe another tack to take is the play up the niche exclusivity, present it as a positive rather than a negative. Some university (Seton?) is offering free ipads to incoming students as a perk; they could, technically, similarly advertize their mechanical boards in their labs to lure comp sci candidates.  Its potentially a similar kind of expensive exclusivity as the i-products with its own similar allure. So the higher expense is seen as a write-off with other benefits.

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Offline clickclack

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 16:35:58 »
Quote from: Nonmouse;170064
That'd be one big keyboard....


HAAHAAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
nice!


...oh umm... I have nothing to contribute =S
sorry and good luck =)
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Offline itlnstln

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 16:37:36 »
Quote from: clickclack;170171
...oh umm... I have nothing to contribute =S

Join the rest of us.


Offline travnewmatic

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 16:40:58 »
Quote from: Otterclock;170074
It's for a speech class, so obviously the point is to make a case for it by any means, and I'm sure you can, but just for discussion's sake. Wall of text inc...

I'm in charge of classroom technology at a state university. I've installed a couple thousand keyboards into classrooms, media labs, study rooms, libraries etc. Cost wise, membranes are the clear winner. Our keyboards are more likely to be retired in full working condition and replaced by newer ones that come packaged with the new computers, than replaced due to breaking. Most replacement due to breakage is the result of trauma to the keyboard or spilled drinks, not normal wear and tear. We have hundreds of membrane boards over seven years old that work flawlessly. OEM membranes that come with education/institutional computers tend to be VERY tough, unlike consumer-end logitechs and such. And they are dirt cheap. We get new computers long before the keyboards on the old ones break, and the new comps come with keyboards; we'll get charged the same even if we ask for them to be left out.

As far as ergonomics/repetitive strain issues: Yes, mechanicals. Here's the problem, keyboards in an educational setting are rarely used at length by one person, but instead at short intervals by multiple people. Few people sit for hours at these boards. In a business setting, I think this argument is more easily made since employees use the boards for entire shifts.

Noise. Often the boards are used in rooms with dozens of people typing away; libraries, study rooms, labs.

Since most of our keyboards are retired before they falter, and replaced mostly when subject to accident, I can't justify spending 10x as much on mechanicals that are just as likely to befall accident, and then cost us 10x as much to replace. I don't believe a 3lb keyboard made up of 104 independent multi-part switches is gonna survive a 5 foot drop onto concrete better than a 1lb board comprised of a sheet of rubber with nubs molded in. (actually our best boards are about 2lbs).

Also here's a big one: Theft. It's a university, nuff said. Keyboards are difficult to secure.


Show Image


Gateway KB-2961. Thing is a BEAST. Metal backplate, solid case, and pretty low force keys once broken in. I've seen these things thrown across rooms and be no worse for wear. About $5 to replace. I have over 400 of them in rooms and maybe have seen two malfunction from normal wear and even then I suspect shenanigans.

However I am STILL trying to get the university to invest in 20-30 topre boards for a special writing lab used by doctoral candidates doing their dissertation. And of course, one extra for me to "evaluate.":smile:


Alright, thanks for everyones input.  I really appreciate it, however I think that i need to go in a different direction.

Ergonomics says yes, money says no.  Also, theres not a whole lot of literature out there on the subject and i have to have a bibliography.  Theres lots of information out there on RSI, but not a whole lot out there on cost/benefit analysis of using mechanical keyboards in place of rubber dome.  And like this guy is saying, it would probably point in favor of rubber dome.
Latest addition: KBT Race 75% (Cherry Brown), IBM Model M (white label 1991), Cherry G80-3000 (Blue Cherries), Unicomp Customizer (Black on black, blank), DSI Big Font Keyboard (Alps linear)

Offline Otterclock

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 18:31:45 »
Quote
Ergonomics says yes, money says no. Also, theres not a whole lot of literature out there on the subject and i have to have a bibliography. Theres lots of information out there on RSI, but not a whole lot out there on cost/benefit analysis of using mechanical keyboards in place of rubber dome. And like this guy is saying, it would probably point in favor of rubber dome.


That doesn't mean you can't still make a case for them. Heck, it's a speech course, the important part is delivery and style. I think arguing for something that is difficult to advocate would be the most fun, and the best demonstration of skill.

Just wave your arms and shout a lot. Use props. Like a baby.
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Offline Ulysses31

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 18:46:21 »
Quote from: itlnstln;170134
I run into this all the time.  The ironic thing about this statement is that mechanical keyboards are the old way of doing things.  Point taken, though.


Well, that's what I meant.  A lot of people are into the so-called bleeding-edge for the sake of it.  Give me back my steam locomotives and computer rope memory knitted by little old ladies.

Offline Otterclock

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 06 April 2010, 18:47:57 »
Quote
Americans. Educated to be good liars! Ehm I mean stylish debaters.

Only our upper class. The rest are educated to be good believers.
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Offline itlnstln

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 07 April 2010, 07:49:52 »
Quote from: ripster;170223
And the ISRAELIS are the world's best debaters.  Better than the Dutch.  The Dutch can take both sides. The Israelis can take three sides.

Women are pretty good, too, especially when they go both ways.


Offline ricercar

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 07 April 2010, 11:35:27 »
SO they're master debaters?
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Offline itlnstln

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 07 April 2010, 12:04:00 »
I think you've got it licked.


Offline spremino

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #32 on: Thu, 08 April 2010, 04:31:43 »
Quote from: travnewmatic;170173
Ergonomics says yes, money says no.


Environment friendness says yes, too. Does that matter?

Know your audience first. Your goal is to persuade, not presenting facts. Persuasion is about emotions, not facts. For instance: are you talking to older people? Well, play on nostalgia; stress how older durable appliances were better than modern throwaways.

Selling is persuading. The best book about sales principles I know about is "The art of salesmanship" by Heinz Goldmann.
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Offline ch_123

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Persuasive Presentation about Mechanical Keyboards
« Reply #33 on: Thu, 08 April 2010, 14:23:54 »
At least it isn't an American policy debate.