Author Topic: On the availability of ISO in GB  (Read 10346 times)

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Offline lewisflude

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #50 on: Fri, 21 June 2019, 09:56:21 »
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You were moaning that Oblivion international kit would not hit MOQ but it has easily?

I said it was not unlikely that it wouldn't, but gave it a shot because it had a chance. Also I wasn't sure that I could offer it with MOQ 50, had it been MOQ 100 we'd still be far off.

Out of the 1574 Base Kits sold, only 65 people cared about proper legends (Base Kits offer physical ISO), that's 4.13%.

I wouldn't call it 'easily' when you need to sell 1500+ Base Kits to hit such a low MOQ. Oblivion will probably remain my only set that I will try serving with proper ISO/NorDeUK coverage, everything else will have physical ISO at most.

Still waiting for Zambumon or Puddsy to show up with a screenshot of the Jamon ISO UK kit only getting 30 orders as if that is proof that only 30 people in the world use ISO.


Sorry to break it to you but Jamon is just ugly af.

A set being pretty or not is irrelevant when you are analyzing percentages.

4.13% is just the percentage of people willing to pay almost twice the cost of the regular base kit for correct legends, for this particular run of Oblivion. It is impossible to analyse this data and make any sort of practical conclusions. Especially when it is from Massdrop which is almost universally hated by everyone in Europe.

I am going to join Oblivion and buy the international kit because I love the set and hate having incorrect legends, but I will have to pay 20% import tax + handling charge, bringing my total to $273 just go cover a 65% board. As you can imagine, not everyone loves the set enough or has enough disposable income to pay that much for a keycap set so will compromise by having incorrect legends with ISO enter. I bet if it was run on mykeyboard.eu or another EU proxy there might be even more interest in the international kit.

Massdrop data is useless for analysing demand in Europe, and if you and Zambumon can't see that then this is a pointless debate. By running the set on MD you are sacrificing EU exposure and sales for more US sales, which is fine, but don't then point at the lack of EU sales as evidence for dropping ISO.

Just out of interest, do you know how much including an additional 4 keys for full ISO UK support would push the base set price up? I can't imagine it is more than a few dollars at most.

Is buying from Massdrop and that handling charge when importing really that much of a deal breaker? I offered SA Arcane via MyKeyboard.eu, we sold 3 ISO-UK kits during the month long GB. (inb4 ArCaNe SuCkS).

Buying from Massdrop is a deal breaker for a lot of people in the EU community as opposed to buying from an EU proxy. Even with sets I've really liked, the extra shipping, fees and customer service of Massdrop has been enough to make me opt out of getting into a GB.
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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #51 on: Fri, 21 June 2019, 10:02:26 »
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You were moaning that Oblivion international kit would not hit MOQ but it has easily?

I said it was not unlikely that it wouldn't, but gave it a shot because it had a chance. Also I wasn't sure that I could offer it with MOQ 50, had it been MOQ 100 we'd still be far off.

Out of the 1574 Base Kits sold, only 65 people cared about proper legends (Base Kits offer physical ISO), that's 4.13%.

I wouldn't call it 'easily' when you need to sell 1500+ Base Kits to hit such a low MOQ. Oblivion will probably remain my only set that I will try serving with proper ISO/NorDeUK coverage, everything else will have physical ISO at most.

Still waiting for Zambumon or Puddsy to show up with a screenshot of the Jamon ISO UK kit only getting 30 orders as if that is proof that only 30 people in the world use ISO.


Sorry to break it to you but Jamon is just ugly af.

A set being pretty or not is irrelevant when you are analyzing percentages.

4.13% is just the percentage of people willing to pay almost twice the cost of the regular base kit for correct legends, for this particular run of Oblivion. It is impossible to analyse this data and make any sort of practical conclusions. Especially when it is from Massdrop which is almost universally hated by everyone in Europe.

I am going to join Oblivion and buy the international kit because I love the set and hate having incorrect legends, but I will have to pay 20% import tax + handling charge, bringing my total to $273 just go cover a 65% board. As you can imagine, not everyone loves the set enough or has enough disposable income to pay that much for a keycap set so will compromise by having incorrect legends with ISO enter. I bet if it was run on mykeyboard.eu or another EU proxy there might be even more interest in the international kit.

Massdrop data is useless for analysing demand in Europe, and if you and Zambumon can't see that then this is a pointless debate. By running the set on MD you are sacrificing EU exposure and sales for more US sales, which is fine, but don't then point at the lack of EU sales as evidence for dropping ISO.

Just out of interest, do you know how much including an additional 4 keys for full ISO UK support would push the base set price up? I can't imagine it is more than a few dollars at most.

Is buying from Massdrop and that handling charge when importing really that much of a deal breaker? I offered SA Arcane via MyKeyboard.eu, we sold 3 ISO-UK kits during the month long GB. (inb4 ArCaNe SuCkS).

Buying from Massdrop is a deal breaker for a lot of people in the EU community as opposed to buying from an EU proxy. Even with sets I've really liked, the extra shipping, fees and customer service of Massdrop has been enough to make me opt out of getting into a GB.

Okay, guess we've had very different experiences with Massdrop then. I've bought plenty of keysets from them, and I was sent entire kits to replace faulty keys I had. Headphones that I sent back I got replaced and a shipping label provided to send the old one back.

Offline lewisflude

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #52 on: Fri, 21 June 2019, 10:05:56 »
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You were moaning that Oblivion international kit would not hit MOQ but it has easily?

I said it was not unlikely that it wouldn't, but gave it a shot because it had a chance. Also I wasn't sure that I could offer it with MOQ 50, had it been MOQ 100 we'd still be far off.

Out of the 1574 Base Kits sold, only 65 people cared about proper legends (Base Kits offer physical ISO), that's 4.13%.

I wouldn't call it 'easily' when you need to sell 1500+ Base Kits to hit such a low MOQ. Oblivion will probably remain my only set that I will try serving with proper ISO/NorDeUK coverage, everything else will have physical ISO at most.

Still waiting for Zambumon or Puddsy to show up with a screenshot of the Jamon ISO UK kit only getting 30 orders as if that is proof that only 30 people in the world use ISO.


Sorry to break it to you but Jamon is just ugly af.

A set being pretty or not is irrelevant when you are analyzing percentages.

4.13% is just the percentage of people willing to pay almost twice the cost of the regular base kit for correct legends, for this particular run of Oblivion. It is impossible to analyse this data and make any sort of practical conclusions. Especially when it is from Massdrop which is almost universally hated by everyone in Europe.

I am going to join Oblivion and buy the international kit because I love the set and hate having incorrect legends, but I will have to pay 20% import tax + handling charge, bringing my total to $273 just go cover a 65% board. As you can imagine, not everyone loves the set enough or has enough disposable income to pay that much for a keycap set so will compromise by having incorrect legends with ISO enter. I bet if it was run on mykeyboard.eu or another EU proxy there might be even more interest in the international kit.

Massdrop data is useless for analysing demand in Europe, and if you and Zambumon can't see that then this is a pointless debate. By running the set on MD you are sacrificing EU exposure and sales for more US sales, which is fine, but don't then point at the lack of EU sales as evidence for dropping ISO.

Just out of interest, do you know how much including an additional 4 keys for full ISO UK support would push the base set price up? I can't imagine it is more than a few dollars at most.

Is buying from Massdrop and that handling charge when importing really that much of a deal breaker? I offered SA Arcane via MyKeyboard.eu, we sold 3 ISO-UK kits during the month long GB. (inb4 ArCaNe SuCkS).

Buying from Massdrop is a deal breaker for a lot of people in the EU community as opposed to buying from an EU proxy. Even with sets I've really liked, the extra shipping, fees and customer service of Massdrop has been enough to make me opt out of getting into a GB.

Okay, guess we've had very different experiences with Massdrop then. I've bought plenty of keysets from them, and I was sent entire kits to replace faulty keys I had. Headphones that I sent back I got replaced and a shipping label provided to send the old one back.

I'm glad you've had a good experience! The shipping, fees, delays and skew towards kits being run there being tailed for Drop-designed boards are all factors that turn EU people off buying from Massdrop. I think the shipping, fees and delays/lack of transparency (just look at the Holy Panda situation) are the biggest reasons.
« Last Edit: Fri, 21 June 2019, 10:09:16 by lewisflude »
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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #53 on: Fri, 21 June 2019, 10:14:52 »
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You were moaning that Oblivion international kit would not hit MOQ but it has easily?

I said it was not unlikely that it wouldn't, but gave it a shot because it had a chance. Also I wasn't sure that I could offer it with MOQ 50, had it been MOQ 100 we'd still be far off.

Out of the 1574 Base Kits sold, only 65 people cared about proper legends (Base Kits offer physical ISO), that's 4.13%.

I wouldn't call it 'easily' when you need to sell 1500+ Base Kits to hit such a low MOQ. Oblivion will probably remain my only set that I will try serving with proper ISO/NorDeUK coverage, everything else will have physical ISO at most.

Still waiting for Zambumon or Puddsy to show up with a screenshot of the Jamon ISO UK kit only getting 30 orders as if that is proof that only 30 people in the world use ISO.


Sorry to break it to you but Jamon is just ugly af.

A set being pretty or not is irrelevant when you are analyzing percentages.

4.13% is just the percentage of people willing to pay almost twice the cost of the regular base kit for correct legends, for this particular run of Oblivion. It is impossible to analyse this data and make any sort of practical conclusions. Especially when it is from Massdrop which is almost universally hated by everyone in Europe.

I am going to join Oblivion and buy the international kit because I love the set and hate having incorrect legends, but I will have to pay 20% import tax + handling charge, bringing my total to $273 just go cover a 65% board. As you can imagine, not everyone loves the set enough or has enough disposable income to pay that much for a keycap set so will compromise by having incorrect legends with ISO enter. I bet if it was run on mykeyboard.eu or another EU proxy there might be even more interest in the international kit.

Massdrop data is useless for analysing demand in Europe, and if you and Zambumon can't see that then this is a pointless debate. By running the set on MD you are sacrificing EU exposure and sales for more US sales, which is fine, but don't then point at the lack of EU sales as evidence for dropping ISO.

Just out of interest, do you know how much including an additional 4 keys for full ISO UK support would push the base set price up? I can't imagine it is more than a few dollars at most.

Is buying from Massdrop and that handling charge when importing really that much of a deal breaker? I offered SA Arcane via MyKeyboard.eu, we sold 3 ISO-UK kits during the month long GB. (inb4 ArCaNe SuCkS).

Buying from Massdrop is a deal breaker for a lot of people in the EU community as opposed to buying from an EU proxy. Even with sets I've really liked, the extra shipping, fees and customer service of Massdrop has been enough to make me opt out of getting into a GB.

Okay, guess we've had very different experiences with Massdrop then. I've bought plenty of keysets from them, and I was sent entire kits to replace faulty keys I had. Headphones that I sent back I got replaced and a shipping label provided to send the old one back.

I'm glad you've had a good experience! The shipping, fees, delays and skew towards kits being run there being tailed for Drop-designed boards are all factors that turn EU people off buying from Massdrop. I think the shipping, fees and delays/lack of transparency (just look at the Holy Panda situation) are the biggest reasons.

You keep repeating fees, how much are they in your country? I pay 6.5eur to DHL for handling the import, which is easily offset by the lower pricing that Massdrop tends to achieve (e.g. GMK Oblivion V2's Git Base Kit will be hitting 1k units at the end of the drop with incoming proxy orders and last day customers, which will shave off 10$. If the set was run through community vendors, we'd not be hitting those price points).

Offline lewisflude

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #54 on: Fri, 21 June 2019, 10:24:22 »
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You were moaning that Oblivion international kit would not hit MOQ but it has easily?

I said it was not unlikely that it wouldn't, but gave it a shot because it had a chance. Also I wasn't sure that I could offer it with MOQ 50, had it been MOQ 100 we'd still be far off.

Out of the 1574 Base Kits sold, only 65 people cared about proper legends (Base Kits offer physical ISO), that's 4.13%.

I wouldn't call it 'easily' when you need to sell 1500+ Base Kits to hit such a low MOQ. Oblivion will probably remain my only set that I will try serving with proper ISO/NorDeUK coverage, everything else will have physical ISO at most.

Still waiting for Zambumon or Puddsy to show up with a screenshot of the Jamon ISO UK kit only getting 30 orders as if that is proof that only 30 people in the world use ISO.


Sorry to break it to you but Jamon is just ugly af.

A set being pretty or not is irrelevant when you are analyzing percentages.

4.13% is just the percentage of people willing to pay almost twice the cost of the regular base kit for correct legends, for this particular run of Oblivion. It is impossible to analyse this data and make any sort of practical conclusions. Especially when it is from Massdrop which is almost universally hated by everyone in Europe.

I am going to join Oblivion and buy the international kit because I love the set and hate having incorrect legends, but I will have to pay 20% import tax + handling charge, bringing my total to $273 just go cover a 65% board. As you can imagine, not everyone loves the set enough or has enough disposable income to pay that much for a keycap set so will compromise by having incorrect legends with ISO enter. I bet if it was run on mykeyboard.eu or another EU proxy there might be even more interest in the international kit.

Massdrop data is useless for analysing demand in Europe, and if you and Zambumon can't see that then this is a pointless debate. By running the set on MD you are sacrificing EU exposure and sales for more US sales, which is fine, but don't then point at the lack of EU sales as evidence for dropping ISO.

Just out of interest, do you know how much including an additional 4 keys for full ISO UK support would push the base set price up? I can't imagine it is more than a few dollars at most.

Is buying from Massdrop and that handling charge when importing really that much of a deal breaker? I offered SA Arcane via MyKeyboard.eu, we sold 3 ISO-UK kits during the month long GB. (inb4 ArCaNe SuCkS).

Buying from Massdrop is a deal breaker for a lot of people in the EU community as opposed to buying from an EU proxy. Even with sets I've really liked, the extra shipping, fees and customer service of Massdrop has been enough to make me opt out of getting into a GB.

Okay, guess we've had very different experiences with Massdrop then. I've bought plenty of keysets from them, and I was sent entire kits to replace faulty keys I had. Headphones that I sent back I got replaced and a shipping label provided to send the old one back.

I'm glad you've had a good experience! The shipping, fees, delays and skew towards kits being run there being tailed for Drop-designed boards are all factors that turn EU people off buying from Massdrop. I think the shipping, fees and delays/lack of transparency (just look at the Holy Panda situation) are the biggest reasons.

You keep repeating fees, how much are they in your country? I pay 6.5eur to DHL for handling the import, which is easily offset by the lower pricing that Massdrop tends to achieve (e.g. GMK Oblivion V2's Git Base Kit will be hitting 1k units at the end of the drop with incoming proxy orders and last day customers, which will shave off 10$. If the set was run through community vendors, we'd not be hitting those price points).

Good question! It's not always the easiest thing to break down.

VAT is 20%
Customs duty of around 2.5% (for things above £135)
With royal mail, another fixed fee of £8
Plus shipping

So for a $250 buy + $20 shipping that takes it to $270.

270 + 22.5% = $330.75

Add on a $10 Royal Mail fee for a final cost of $340.75.

That's about $90 or £71 in fees. Or a 36% increase over the base price of the set when you include shipping. To be fair, you'd have to pay for shipping wherever you are, but we pay import tax on the price plus the shipping so it ends up hurting a fair bit.

Some sources:

HMRC import tax info/banding: https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/tax-and-duty
Reddit post that goes over it pretty well: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3hicqy/guide_uk_import_costs_a_basic_guide/
« Last Edit: Fri, 21 June 2019, 10:25:59 by lewisflude »
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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #55 on: Fri, 21 June 2019, 10:27:37 »
Good question! It's not always the easiest thing to break down.

VAT is 20%
Customs duty of around 2.5% (for things above £135)
With royal mail, another fixed fee of £8
Plus shipping

So for a $250 buy + $20 shipping that takes it to $270.

270 + 22.5% = $330.75

Add on a $10 Royal Mail fee for a final cost of $340.75.

That's about $90 or £71 in fees. Or a 36% increase over the base price of the set when you include shipping. To be fair, you'd have to pay for shipping wherever you are, but we pay import tax on the price plus the shipping so it ends up hurting a fair bit.

Some sources:

HMRC import tax info/banding: https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/tax-and-duty
Reddit post that goes over it pretty well: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3hicqy/guide_uk_import_costs_a_basic_guide/

Why do you list VAT as an additional cost as if it wouldn't exist if buying from MyKeyboard.eu?

Offline lewisflude

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #56 on: Fri, 21 June 2019, 10:33:12 »
Good question! It's not always the easiest thing to break down.

VAT is 20%
Customs duty of around 2.5% (for things above £135)
With royal mail, another fixed fee of £8
Plus shipping

So for a $250 buy + $20 shipping that takes it to $270.

270 + 22.5% = $330.75

Add on a $10 Royal Mail fee for a final cost of $340.75.

That's about $90 or £71 in fees. Or a 36% increase over the base price of the set when you include shipping. To be fair, you'd have to pay for shipping wherever you are, but we pay import tax on the price plus the shipping so it ends up hurting a fair bit.

Some sources:

HMRC import tax info/banding: https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/tax-and-duty
Reddit post that goes over it pretty well: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3hicqy/guide_uk_import_costs_a_basic_guide/

Why do you list VAT as an additional cost as if it wouldn't exist if buying from MyKeyboard.eu?

I was using this as an example of fees when buying from Massdrop. When buying from MyKeyboard.eu they'd have to either pay the tax and increase the cost or swallow the cost. Unless set designers are selling to EU proxies at a loss?
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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #57 on: Fri, 21 June 2019, 10:37:26 »
Good question! It's not always the easiest thing to break down.

VAT is 20%
Customs duty of around 2.5% (for things above £135)
With royal mail, another fixed fee of £8
Plus shipping

So for a $250 buy + $20 shipping that takes it to $270.

270 + 22.5% = $330.75

Add on a $10 Royal Mail fee for a final cost of $340.75.

That's about $90 or £71 in fees. Or a 36% increase over the base price of the set when you include shipping. To be fair, you'd have to pay for shipping wherever you are, but we pay import tax on the price plus the shipping so it ends up hurting a fair bit.

Some sources:

HMRC import tax info/banding: https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/tax-and-duty
Reddit post that goes over it pretty well: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3hicqy/guide_uk_import_costs_a_basic_guide/

Why do you list VAT as an additional cost as if it wouldn't exist if buying from MyKeyboard.eu?

I was using this as an example of fees when buying from Massdrop. When buying from MyKeyboard.eu they'd have to either pay the tax and increase the cost or swallow the cost. Unless set designers are selling to EU proxies at a loss?

VAT is added on top by MyKeyboard.eu, every business does. Why would they eat that cost, they aren't a charity.

"an example of fees" - yeah but you are painting it bad even though the majority of that "fee" still exists when buying within the EU.
« Last Edit: Fri, 21 June 2019, 10:39:27 by Oblotzky »

Offline lewisflude

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #58 on: Fri, 21 June 2019, 11:12:04 »
Good question! It's not always the easiest thing to break down.

VAT is 20%
Customs duty of around 2.5% (for things above £135)
With royal mail, another fixed fee of £8
Plus shipping

So for a $250 buy + $20 shipping that takes it to $270.

270 + 22.5% = $330.75

Add on a $10 Royal Mail fee for a final cost of $340.75.

That's about $90 or £71 in fees. Or a 36% increase over the base price of the set when you include shipping. To be fair, you'd have to pay for shipping wherever you are, but we pay import tax on the price plus the shipping so it ends up hurting a fair bit.

Some sources:

HMRC import tax info/banding: https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/tax-and-duty
Reddit post that goes over it pretty well: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3hicqy/guide_uk_import_costs_a_basic_guide/

Why do you list VAT as an additional cost as if it wouldn't exist if buying from MyKeyboard.eu?

I was using this as an example of fees when buying from Massdrop. When buying from MyKeyboard.eu they'd have to either pay the tax and increase the cost or swallow the cost. Unless set designers are selling to EU proxies at a loss?

VAT is added on top by MyKeyboard.eu, every business does. Why would they eat that cost, they aren't a charity.

"an example of fees" - yeah but you are painting it bad even though the majority of that "fee" still exists when buying within the EU.

Good point to be fair, my VAT maths doesn't really work out. I dun goofed.

Although what I would say is kits in the EU whether through a vendor or through Drop do end up being more expensive than when buying within the US by quite a significant amount. This means that it's harder for people to buy all the kits they want anyway! This is a subtly different issue from "why don't more sets include ISO support" though.

I do think there is a level of apprehension knowing that there will be a bill coming through the post separately to the main order, it all being bundled together is much more convenient. Not to mention shipping is cheaper, quicker and more visible.
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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #59 on: Fri, 21 June 2019, 12:07:35 »
The main difference for me with buying from Drop to an EU vendor is that I know what Iím getting into and a more reliable shipping time and arrival. (And in The Netherlands you also have to pay VAT for the shipping costs but for keycap sets shipping is $15 most of the times so thatís not a lot). Overall I would say the exact same set with an EU vendor would be about Ä25 cheaper compared to Drop.


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Offline Acereconkeys

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #60 on: Fri, 21 June 2019, 13:31:56 »
Back on topic, does the agreement seem to be physical Iso support is worth it while more specific legends you'd fine in NordeUK kits are not worth it and only barely meet low MoQs on big orders? That seems pretty reasonable to me. Everyone gets their compatibility.

Can I expect the same support from this group when I start pushing for 1.25u r3 and 1.75u r3 in base kits for bare minimum keycap support for 40% users? 
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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #61 on: Fri, 21 June 2019, 15:00:59 »
Back on topic, does the agreement seem to be physical Iso support is worth it while more specific legends you'd fine in NordeUK kits are not worth it and only barely meet low MoQs on big orders? That seems pretty reasonable to me. Everyone gets their compatibility.

I... uhhh... which ones are the "more specific legends" again?

FWIW, I'm fine with a compromise of having all legends in English, in spite of the keyboard using, say German or Spanish alphas. Getting keys with the "proper" legends such as "Strg" or "Mayķs" will be feasible only when numbers for custom orders are high enough to disagregate NORDEUK and LAPTES kits into kits for each individual language ("German kit", "Spanish (old) kit", "Spanish (Iberoamerican)", etc.).

Now, if it were for me, I'd have ALL non-alphas in a keyboard use icons and only icons (this making the internationalization issue an alphas-only thing), but I don't expect many people to follow me - it's difficult enough already to convince people that the numpad's bottom row should be zero/comma/period instead of 2Uzero/period.  ;D


Can I expect the same support from this group when I start pushing for 1.25u r3 and 1.75u r3 in base kits for bare minimum keycap support for 40% users?

I'll support your 1.25U R3 Tab key if you support my 1.25U R3 Enter key. :cool:

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Offline Acereconkeys

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #62 on: Fri, 21 June 2019, 17:03:39 »
Back on topic, does the agreement seem to be physical Iso support is worth it while more specific legends you'd fine in NordeUK kits are not worth it and only barely meet low MoQs on big orders? That seems pretty reasonable to me. Everyone gets their compatibility.

I... uhhh... which ones are the "more specific legends" again?

FWIW, I'm fine with a compromise of having all legends in English, in spite of the keyboard using, say German or Spanish alphas. Getting keys with the "proper" legends such as "Strg" or "Mayķs" will be feasible only when numbers for custom orders are high enough to disagregate NORDEUK and LAPTES kits into kits for each individual language ("German kit", "Spanish (old) kit", "Spanish (Iberoamerican)", etc.).

Now, if it were for me, I'd have ALL non-alphas in a keyboard use icons and only icons (this making the internationalization issue an alphas-only thing), but I don't expect many people to follow me - it's difficult enough already to convince people that the numpad's bottom row should be zero/comma/period instead of 2Uzero/period.  ;D


Can I expect the same support from this group when I start pushing for 1.25u r3 and 1.75u r3 in base kits for bare minimum keycap support for 40% users?

I'll support your 1.25U R3 Tab key if you support my 1.25U R3 Enter key. :cool:

Specific legends meaning the modified 1, 2 and 3 keys for UK iso or some of the other modified keys you'd find in a Norde kit for example.

And what layout do you have that uses 1.25u R3 enter key? The beauty of my idea of only have bare minimum compatibility is i'm fine with having either a 1.25u r3 enter or tab key as long as i have some r3 1.25u key for mah board.
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Online depletedvespene

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #63 on: Fri, 21 June 2019, 17:25:17 »
Ö
Specific legends meaning the modified 1, 2 and 3 keys for UK iso or some of the other modified keys you'd find in a Norde kit for example.

Oh, alphas! I thought you were talking about mods.

MY opinion (YMMV, of course) is that the minimum support a base kit should have is US ISO (as stated in my first post in this thread), with ISO Enter, ISO left Shift and two \| keys (R3 and R4) always present; optionally, an "accent" Enter key could be added (and perhaps even an <> R4 key, too). From then on, UK specific alpha keys (namely: `¨  2"  3£ '@ #~  ----- note that R4 \| is already present in US ISO) should go into an "international" kit, which would have 2 or 3 AltGr keys as well. Nowadays, these alphas for UK layouts would be part of a NORDEUK kit. Later, when numbers merit it, NORDEUK could be separated into NOR and DEUK. Later still, into a specific UK kit.

Same would go for a LAPTES kit (with keycaps for |į — « 3∑ +*~  ◌́◌̈ ◌̀◌̂ Ņ° <> ęĽ etc.), a BEFRIT kit (R2 A, R3 M, Ŕß, »…, etc.), and whatever else comes our way.



And what layout do you have that uses 1.25u R3 enter key? The beauty of my idea of only have bare minimum compatibility is i'm fine with having either a 1.25u r3 enter or tab key as long as i have some r3 1.25u key for mah board.

Havve you ever seen a "kishie" or an F107 keyboard? I am of the (quite unpopular) opinion that compact keyboards (70% and under) should use neither ANSI nor ISO Enter keys, and go instead with a "TIE" Enter: a 1.25U key in R3. No one listens to me on this, but one day, everyone shall see the... error of my ways, I guess? :))
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Offline lewisflude

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #64 on: Fri, 21 June 2019, 17:31:41 »
Ö
Specific legends meaning the modified 1, 2 and 3 keys for UK iso or some of the other modified keys you'd find in a Norde kit for example.

Oh, alphas! I thought you were talking about mods.

MY opinion (YMMV, of course) is that the minimum support a base kit should have is US ISO (as stated in my first post in this thread), with ISO Enter, ISO left Shift and two \| keys (R3 and R4) always present; optionally, an "accent" Enter key could be added (and perhaps even an <> R4 key, too). From then on, UK specific alpha keys (namely: `¨  2"  3£ '@ #~  ----- note that R4 \| is already present in US ISO) should go into an "international" kit, which would have 2 or 3 AltGr keys as well. Nowadays, these alphas for UK layouts would be part of a NORDEUK kit. Later, when numbers merit it, NORDEUK could be separated into NOR and DEUK. Later still, into a specific UK kit.

Same would go for a LAPTES kit (with keycaps for |į — « 3∑ +*~  ◌́◌̈ ◌̀◌̂ Ņ° <> ęĽ etc.), a BEFRIT kit (R2 A, R3 M, Ŕß, »…, etc.), and whatever else comes our way.



And what layout do you have that uses 1.25u R3 enter key? The beauty of my idea of only have bare minimum compatibility is i'm fine with having either a 1.25u r3 enter or tab key as long as i have some r3 1.25u key for mah board.

Havve you ever seen a "kishie" or an F107 keyboard? I am of the (quite unpopular) opinion that compact keyboards (70% and under) should use neither ANSI nor ISO Enter keys, and go instead with a "TIE" Enter: a 1.25U key in R3. No one listens to me on this, but one day, everyone shall see the... error of my ways, I guess? :))

This is the best practical way ISO should be broken down Iíve seen in this thread so far. Iíd also add that Iím personally fine with ISO being merged with numpad if the set is gonna be mega popular.
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Online depletedvespene

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #65 on: Fri, 21 June 2019, 17:44:48 »
And what layout do you have that uses 1.25u R3 enter key? The beauty of my idea of only have bare minimum compatibility is i'm fine with having either a 1.25u r3 enter or tab key as long as i have some r3 1.25u key for mah board.

Havve you ever seen a "kishie" or an F107 keyboard? I am of the (quite unpopular) opinion that compact keyboards (70% and under) should use neither ANSI nor ISO Enter keys, and go instead with a "TIE" Enter: a 1.25U key in R3. No one listens to me on this, but one day, everyone shall see the... error of my ways, I guess? :))

This is the best practical way ISO should be broken down Iíve seen in this thread so far. Iíd also add that Iím personally fine with ISO being merged with numpad if the set is gonna be mega popular.

I've actually tested this out a bit: the "top" side serves as a HHKB 1.5U backspace and the "bottom" side as the 1.25U Enter key, and I like it. Then again, by actually using constantly BOTH ANSI and ISO keyboards for years, I trained myself (albeit unconsciously) to hit the Enter key (either the ISO or the ANSI) in the area that is common to both: and that' why I call it "TIE".

But let me emphasize that this makes sense for 70% keyboards and smaller. 75%, 79%, TKL form factors and over... not really. ISO is best there (or ANSI... except in the 79% form factor, where it's ISO totally outdoes ANSI - YMMNV).


With respect to the numpad... while I agree that separating it into its own kit apart from the base kit is a good idea, I'll have to seriously disagree on putting the ISO keys there (which are, after all, an integral part of the main alpha block).


Later, in another thread, I'll share what I think a proper (for my own definition of "proper", of course) numpad should be like.
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Offline Auxo

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #66 on: Sun, 23 June 2019, 00:35:46 »
I'll slightly echo what Dym mentioned earlier:

But for those who are interested in ISO availability, I think it'd be a good idea to look up manufacturers who have molds for ISO layout.

Check out their qualities, gather up a good set of options, and bring light into what's available out there for GB runners and keyset designers to consider.

I would absolutely love to see more coverage, but at the moment, it looks like there are only a small number of manufacturers to choose from, coupled with good customer service and QC, that is.

I notice that there is a lot of talk about including ISO, with justification.. and I may be missing something, but nobody is offering a real solution.


Edit: Also want to thank you guys for taking this matter off the GB thread :)
« Last Edit: Sun, 23 June 2019, 00:38:53 by Auxo »

Online nguyenhimself

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On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #67 on: Sun, 23 June 2019, 10:23:10 »
On the other hand I'm not pretending ISO is a 50% of the enthusiasts, probably far from it actually.

But how far are they from the 75% users, 1800 users , ergo users  ?
Because when I buy a set with all the keys for those other layouts, I reserve the option to use them on other keyboards down the line, i.e a very common thing in this hobby.
As an ANSI user, I literally will never touch those ISO keys. I might as well throw them into the trash.
Fine, like the kids say, Iíll take an L on this for inclusivityís sake.
But then the UK folks start demanding GB runners add UK-ISO keys to the base kit, and thatís just one step too far.
Stop being so wasteful.
« Last Edit: Sun, 23 June 2019, 10:31:15 by nguyenhimself »

Offline lewisflude

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On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #68 on: Sun, 23 June 2019, 10:28:47 »
On the other hand I'm not pretending ISO is a 50% of the enthusiasts, probably far from it actually.

But how far are they from the 75% users, 1800 users , ergo users  ?
Because when I buy a set with all the keys for those other layouts, I reserve the option to use them on other keyboards down the line, i.e a very common thing in this hobby.
As an ANSI user, I literally will never touch those ISO keys. I might as well throw them into the trash.
Fine, like the kids say, Iíll take an L on this for inclusivityís sake.
But then the UK folks start demanding ISO-UK keys in the base kit, and thatís just one step too far.
Stop being so wasteful.

Totally get your perspective and itís a really interesting to hear the perspective of someone who uses ANSI thinking about what boards they might want to build in the future.

US-ISO in base is totally fine by me, and I think thatís the main thing people are asking for. So that people who use ISO can also look at other layouts (the ISO variants).

If there isnít a NorDeUk kit, I think having UK-ISO in base is a good step as it seems like a lot of international ISO users would rather have that than nothing. I could be wrong on that!

Personally I think US-ISO in base is the bare minimum but totally acceptable with a separate NorDeUk kit.
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Online depletedvespene

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #69 on: Sun, 23 June 2019, 11:07:54 »
On the other hand I'm not pretending ISO is a 50% of the enthusiasts, probably far from it actually.

But how far are they from the 75% users, 1800 users , ergo users  ?
Because when I buy a set with all the keys for those other layouts, I reserve the option to use them on other keyboards down the line, i.e a very common thing in this hobby.
As an ANSI user, I literally will never touch those ISO keys. I might as well throw them into the trash.
Fine, like the kids say, Iíll take an L on this for inclusivityís sake.
But then the UK folks start demanding GB runners add UK-ISO keys to the base kit, and thatís just one step too far.
Stop being so wasteful.

This is a faulty argument. I use full-size, battleships and TKL keyboards constantly, and the lowest I'll ever go is 75%. Therefore, I "literally will never" use keys like 1U Ctrl and Alt (or, for that matter, those Code keys), yet you don't see me complaining about those (plus some others) being part of a base kit.

That said, I think the best compromise is US ISO support as an integral part of the base kit; UK ISO can then be added as an option (with five, not six, alphas, as one is in the base kit already).
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Online depletedvespene

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #70 on: Sun, 23 June 2019, 11:13:47 »
US-ISO in base is totally fine by me, and I think thatís the main thing people are asking for. So that people who use ISO can also look at other layouts (the ISO variants).

If there isnít a NorDeUk kit, I think having UK-ISO in base is a good step as it seems like a lot of international ISO users would rather have that than nothing. I could be wrong on that!

I believe (and I might be wrong as well) that this is for historical reasons: kits commonly support in the base kit either plain ANSI or go straight to UK ISO, with the US ISO solution being seldom seen; therefore "ISO support in the base kit" is often equated to "UK ISO support in the base kit" (with an additional "NORDE" kit being as an extra - note how the other common one, "NORDEUK", has "-UK" at its tail end instead of at its start).
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Offline lewisflude

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #71 on: Sun, 23 June 2019, 11:18:40 »
US-ISO in base is totally fine by me, and I think thatís the main thing people are asking for. So that people who use ISO can also look at other layouts (the ISO variants).

If there isnít a NorDeUk kit, I think having UK-ISO in base is a good step as it seems like a lot of international ISO users would rather have that than nothing. I could be wrong on that!

I believe (and I might be wrong as well) that this is for historical reasons: kits commonly support in the base kit either plain ANSI or go straight to UK ISO, with the US ISO solution being seldom seen; therefore "ISO support in the base kit" is often equated to "UK ISO support in the base kit" (with an additional "NORDE" kit being as an extra - note how the other common one, "NORDEUK", has "-UK" at its tail end instead of at its start).

That makes total sense. I think the smart move is to go straight to UK-ISO and have a NorDe kit, but the bare minimum I expect is US-ISO with NorDeUk. Considering thereís more people after UK-ISO than US-ISO, sticking UK-ISO in the base kit is the best solution.

Like I said earlier, I think inclusion should be at the centre of discussions around keyset design. I think that geographically speaking, ISO matters to people across the pond from America and people should make an effort to support it so that the many people whoíve grown up using ISO can build something that feels familiar.
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Online depletedvespene

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #72 on: Sun, 23 June 2019, 11:27:21 »
That makes total sense. I think the smart move is to go straight to UK-ISO and have a NorDe kit, but the bare minimum I expect is US-ISO with NorDeUk. Considering thereís more people after UK-ISO than US-ISO, sticking UK-ISO in the base kit is the best solution.

I'm gonna have to disagree on that. The US ISO compromise implies adding four keys to the base kit that ANSI users won't touch (plus one or two optional extra keys, according to the designer's whim), while "full" UK ISO support implies NINE keys (the US ISO four, plus: `¨ 2" 3£ #~ '@ ). ANSI users would see this as too much, and I'd be hard-pressed to disagree. Heck, non-British ISO users would probably complain, too.


Like I said earlier, I think inclusion should be at the centre of discussions around keyset design. I think that geographically speaking, ISO matters to people across the pond from America and people should make an effort to support it so that the many people whoíve grown up using ISO can build something that feels familiar.

Across the pond AND south of the RŪo Grande, mind you. :cool:
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Online nguyenhimself

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On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #73 on: Sun, 23 June 2019, 11:33:15 »
On the other hand I'm not pretending ISO is a 50% of the enthusiasts, probably far from it actually.

But how far are they from the 75% users, 1800 users , ergo users  ?
Because when I buy a set with all the keys for those other layouts, I reserve the option to use them on other keyboards down the line, i.e a very common thing in this hobby.
As an ANSI user, I literally will never touch those ISO keys. I might as well throw them into the trash.
Fine, like the kids say, Iíll take an L on this for inclusivityís sake.
But then the UK folks start demanding GB runners add UK-ISO keys to the base kit, and thatís just one step too far.
Stop being so wasteful.

This is a faulty argument. I use full-size, battleships and TKL keyboards constantly, and the lowest I'll ever go is 75%. Therefore, I "literally will never" use keys like 1U Ctrl and Alt (or, for that matter, those Code keys), yet you don't see me complaining about those (plus some others) being part of a base kit.

That said, I think the best compromise is US ISO support as an integral part of the base kit; UK ISO can then be added as an option (with five, not six, alphas, as one is in the base kit already).
The point is, you may and could at some point in the future go for smaller layouts.
The probability is therefore >0%.
And the longer you remain in this hobby, the more likely that you might ďexperimentĒ with other, smaller layouts.
Meanwhile, for ANSI users, the probability of them ever switching to ISO is 0%. I can say with some certainty as Iíve moved to Germany for awhile, and all working expats I met there still kept using ANSI.

Offline lewisflude

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #74 on: Sun, 23 June 2019, 11:33:23 »
That makes total sense. I think the smart move is to go straight to UK-ISO and have a NorDe kit, but the bare minimum I expect is US-ISO with NorDeUk. Considering thereís more people after UK-ISO than US-ISO, sticking UK-ISO in the base kit is the best solution.

I'm gonna have to disagree on that. The US ISO compromise implies adding four keys to the base kit that ANSI users won't touch (plus one or two optional extra keys, according to the designer's whim), while "full" UK ISO support implies NINE keys (the US ISO four, plus: `¨ 2" 3£ #~ '@ ). ANSI users would see this as too much, and I'd be hard-pressed to disagree. Heck, non-British ISO users would probably complain, too.


Like I said earlier, I think inclusion should be at the centre of discussions around keyset design. I think that geographically speaking, ISO matters to people across the pond from America and people should make an effort to support it so that the many people whoíve grown up using ISO can build something that feels familiar.

Across the pond AND south of the RŪo Grande, mind you. :cool:

Very good point r.e. adding nine extra keys! Can totally see why people wouldnít want that. US-ISO in base + NorDeUk kit seems like the real winner then.

Hello from north of the Rio Grande and across the pond!
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Offline Acereconkeys

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #75 on: Sun, 23 June 2019, 14:51:48 »
That makes total sense. I think the smart move is to go straight to UK-ISO and have a NorDe kit, but the bare minimum I expect is US-ISO with NorDeUk. Considering thereís more people after UK-ISO than US-ISO, sticking UK-ISO in the base kit is the best solution.

I'm gonna have to disagree on that. The US ISO compromise implies adding four keys to the base kit that ANSI users won't touch (plus one or two optional extra keys, according to the designer's whim), while "full" UK ISO support implies NINE keys (the US ISO four, plus: `¨ 2" 3£ #~ '@ ). ANSI users would see this as too much, and I'd be hard-pressed to disagree. Heck, non-British ISO users would probably complain, too.


Like I said earlier, I think inclusion should be at the centre of discussions around keyset design. I think that geographically speaking, ISO matters to people across the pond from America and people should make an effort to support it so that the many people whoíve grown up using ISO can build something that feels familiar.

Across the pond AND south of the RŪo Grande, mind you. :cool:

Very good point r.e. adding nine extra keys! Can totally see why people wouldnít want that. US-ISO in base + NorDeUk kit seems like the real winner then.

Hello from north of the Rio Grande and across the pond!

+1 for US-ISO in Base + all the specific legended keys in a NorDeUk kit!
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Online depletedvespene

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #76 on: Sun, 23 June 2019, 18:06:34 »
Ö
The point is, you may and could at some point in the future go for smaller layouts.
The probability is therefore >0%.
And the longer you remain in this hobby, the more likely that you might ďexperimentĒ with other, smaller layouts.
Meanwhile, for ANSI users, the probability of them ever switching to ISO is 0%. I can say with some certainty as Iíve moved to Germany for awhile, and all working expats I met there still kept using ANSI.

Actually, I have... and bounced back. When I said "... and the lowest I'll ever go is 75%." is because I have found, indeed, that that is the smallest usable layout for me.

To put the argument into another layout, I hate the 1800 layout (and I dislike the "common" 96% for the exact same reason), so the probability of me using that layout is 0%... meaning that the R1 PgDn and End keys in a kit are straight up useless for me. Yet, I don't complain about it because I understand that they're part of a compromise solution that maximizes layout coverage.

... same goes for those ugly, disheveled, evil, Satan-worshipping, party-pooper non-stepped Caps Lock keys. But base kit is base kit, isn't it? ;D
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Online Poesjuh

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #77 on: Sun, 23 June 2019, 18:34:34 »
The main reason to include the 4 ISO keys is that literally >anybody> that used any kind of iso layout will be able to put caps on their board. Yes they may be the wrong legend, but at the very least they’ll physically fit.
« Last Edit: Mon, 24 June 2019, 02:40:55 by Poesjuh »

Offline Yeoh

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #78 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 01:57:52 »

4.13% is just the percentage of people willing to pay almost twice the cost of the regular base kit for correct legends, for this particular run of Oblivion. It is impossible to analyse this data and make any sort of practical conclusions. Especially when it is from Massdrop which is almost universally hated by everyone in Europe.

I am going to join Oblivion and buy the international kit because I love the set and hate having incorrect legends, but I will have to pay 20% import tax + handling charge, bringing my total to $273 just go cover a 65% board. As you can imagine, not everyone loves the set enough or has enough disposable income to pay that much for a keycap set so will compromise by having incorrect legends with ISO enter. I bet if it was run on mykeyboard.eu or another EU proxy there might be even more interest in the international kit.

Massdrop data is useless for analysing demand in Europe, and if you and Zambumon can't see that then this is a pointless debate. By running the set on MD you are sacrificing EU exposure and sales for more US sales, which is fine, but don't then point at the lack of EU sales as evidence for dropping ISO.

Just out of interest, do you know how much including an additional 4 keys for full ISO UK support would push the base set price up? I can't imagine it is more than a few dollars at most.

Regardless of your opinion on (mass)Drop, the data is objectively relevant. Data is still data, even if you dont like it.

Earlier in the thread, Zambumon asked possibly the most poignant & obvious question that seems to be (purposely?) ignored by those who discount Drops gb numbers as legitimate data. Ill pose the same question to you: Why do you list VAT as an additional cost as if it wouldn't exist if buying from MyKeyboard.eu, or similar eu proxy?

Taking into account the price drops already achieved in Oblivion v2 (by selling an amount of units thats only possible on Drop) and the fact that you would be paying VAT regardless if it were sold through Drop or an EU proxy, your argument makes little sense when claiming that running it elsewhere would have much of an effect on price, or total number of ISO participants.

Additionally, as others have pointed out elsewhere in the thread: ISO isnt used exclusively in Europe. There are plenty of areas other than the EU where Drop is also a viable option to ISO users and yet despite this, the demand simply isnt there. Hell, the closest non-standard layout to the International Kit is Colevrak, which should give you some perspective as to how prevalent ISO is. Its also solid data in establishing the fact that while it may be arguably widespread in oem keyboards globally, ISO is obviously a non-standard layout in the custom keyboard community.

In any case, regardless of the cost, the four additional extra keys to provide full ISO UK coverage in the base kit would have to be subsidized by the vastly overwhelming majority purchasers who have no use for them in the first place (in addition to the extra they are already paying for to have basic physical ISO coverage included.) If you cant see that, then this is a pointless debate. Its not the lack of EU sales that have designers considering dropping ISO support, its the lack of ISO sales globally, in general.
« Last Edit: Mon, 24 June 2019, 02:01:23 by Yeoh »

Offline lewisflude

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #79 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 02:15:31 »

4.13% is just the percentage of people willing to pay almost twice the cost of the regular base kit for correct legends, for this particular run of Oblivion. It is impossible to analyse this data and make any sort of practical conclusions. Especially when it is from Massdrop which is almost universally hated by everyone in Europe.

I am going to join Oblivion and buy the international kit because I love the set and hate having incorrect legends, but I will have to pay 20% import tax + handling charge, bringing my total to $273 just go cover a 65% board. As you can imagine, not everyone loves the set enough or has enough disposable income to pay that much for a keycap set so will compromise by having incorrect legends with ISO enter. I bet if it was run on mykeyboard.eu or another EU proxy there might be even more interest in the international kit.

Massdrop data is useless for analysing demand in Europe, and if you and Zambumon can't see that then this is a pointless debate. By running the set on MD you are sacrificing EU exposure and sales for more US sales, which is fine, but don't then point at the lack of EU sales as evidence for dropping ISO.

Just out of interest, do you know how much including an additional 4 keys for full ISO UK support would push the base set price up? I can't imagine it is more than a few dollars at most.

Regardless of your opinion on (mass)Drop, the data is objectively relevant. Data is still data, even if you dont like it.

Earlier in the thread, Zambumon asked possibly the most poignant & obvious question that seems to be (purposely?) ignored by those who discount Drops gb numbers as legitimate data. Ill pose the same question to you: Why do you list VAT as an additional cost as if it wouldn't exist if buying from MyKeyboard.eu, or similar eu proxy?

Taking into account the price drops already achieved in Oblivion v2 (by selling an amount of units thats only possible on Drop) and the fact that you would be paying VAT regardless if it were sold through Drop or an EU proxy, your argument makes little sense when claiming that running it elsewhere would have much of an effect on price, or total number of ISO participants.

Additionally, as others have pointed out elsewhere in the thread: ISO isnt used exclusively in Europe. There are plenty of areas other than the EU where Drop is also a viable option to ISO users and yet despite this, the demand simply isnt there. Hell, the closest non-standard layout to the International Kit is Colevrak, which should give you some perspective as to how prevalent ISO is. Its also solid data in establishing the fact that while it may be arguably widespread in oem keyboards globally, ISO is obviously a non-standard layout in the custom keyboard community.

In any case, regardless of the cost, the four additional extra keys to provide full ISO UK coverage in the base kit would have to be subsidized by the vastly overwhelming majority purchasers who have no use for them in the first place (in addition to the extra they are already paying for to have basic physical ISO coverage included.) If you cant see that, then this is a pointless debate. Its not the lack of EU sales that have designers considering dropping ISO support, its the lack of ISO sales globally, in general.

I appreciate your input! Itís a totally valid stance on this issue. If you look at existing sales data, I can totally see why it would make sense to follow the numbers and continually optimise kits to benefit the larger demographic of buyers. I do think that this would be a mistake as it makes set uses homogenous, and excludes a huge part of the world where mechanical keyboards as a hobby is rapidly growing.

For one reason or another Drop is massively more popular in the US than it is in Europe.

Similarweb estimates that over 50% of Dropís traffic is from US and Canada with less than 5% coming from the UK (and even less from other European countries).

The sentiment from Europeans around ordering from Drop is not great to say the least, with many actively avoiding it, some missing out on GBs that are ran there etc.

Youíre right in that their sales data is data, but itís massively skewed by the people who actually buy from there. I donít think it really adds much to this discussion.

Objectively, ANSI is an American standard and ISO is used in large parts of the rest of the world. From a purely capitalistic point of view, I can totally see why people would want to drop the price for as many people as possible but I think that inclusion should be a big part of this discussion.

IMO there is a big difference between ďI donít have the correct legends for my 40% layoutĒ and cutting out a huge portion of the world that grew up using ISO.

Sets, boards, PCBs not supporting ISO creates a downward spiral and sort of imposes American ideas of what a keyboard should be on the rest of the world.

As this hobby expands globally I think itís really important that we keep finding ways to maintain ISO support. To try and make all future keyboard layouts more homogenous would be a bit short sighted.
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Offline jonowarren94

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #80 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 02:27:23 »
Just a quick clarification about massdrop. I think most EU people resent paying the 20% tax twice with GMK sets. This happens because the set is made and sold to US with 20% tax, then shipped back to EU for another 20% tax plus fees, hence the minor annoyance about not shipping from EU, if all the EU proxy orders are shipped from GMK this would be resolved.
EDIT: I don't want anyone to eat the cost of VAT, I just dont want to pay it twice. If something moves out of the EU and then comes back in you pay VAT twice, if it was shipped from within the EU entirely then VAT is paid once.

Personally I see this as 2 different issues - keyboards supporting layouts and keycaps supporting layouts. I am personally happy if the base keyboard doesn't support ISO, but there is little reason the PCB shouldn't and a plate file released so that people can have it if they want it. This way you get the cost savings and benefits of only having a fixed layout but you are still being inclusive of other people - To me this is acceptable, but obviously I wouldn't buy a keyboard that I could not ever get ISO on as that is just what I use.

For keycaps personally I won't buy it unless it supports my layout with the correct legends, but I'm in the minority here (I think?). This hobby is a small one it would be nice if we weren't further fragmented by people refusing to offer coverage for everyone. I think GMK cafe is a good example of how kits can be done in such a way that minimizes overall the number of kits but also gets a good coverage of layouts which are likely to hit MOQ with people not having too many 'wasted' keys.
« Last Edit: Mon, 24 June 2019, 02:34:40 by jonowarren94 »

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On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #81 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 02:28:19 »
To add a bit more to the above poster:

The hard cold fact is that, while ISO users keep demanding for.vendors to eat their VAT cost, they fail to see that the majority of buyers in America, China, and the rest of Asia are in fact eating the cost of production for their ISO keys.

And now to come and demand everyone should also eat the cost of a bunch other ISO-exclusive keys? Jeez, try seeing it from our perspective too, you guys.

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #82 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 02:28:45 »
Ok, so I wasnít going to post in this thread, but was interested to see where it was going...

Firstly a couple of things to clarify:

1 - Basic ISO support for EU users is 4 keys, 1.25u Shift, 1uR4, 1uR3 and the ISO enter. ISO-US does not cover this as it uses full left shift and the ISO enter key with the 1uR3... small distinction but I do feel that this stuff is important.

2 - Iím primarily an ISO user as most know, and build 90% or more of my boards in ISO layout.

Ok on to the meat and gravy...


ISO in the community is a minority. This is without a shadow of a doubt the case; the hobby is significantly more prevelant in the US and Asian communities than it is in Europe; but the hobby is growing significantly here. You can look at retail manufacturers such as Ducky, corsair, Apple etc, and youíll see that overall in the non-mech-community, ISO vs ANSI is split pretty closely. I did some Freedom of Information requests on this last year, and the broad strokes of the results were that ISO was about 46% with ANSI being 53% and the rest being Ďotherí layouts.

But this community is not representative of the keyboard industry as a whole. Itís a microcosm, with its own quirks and idiosyncrasies (i.e. HHKB layout is much more prevalent in our community than it is in the keyboard industry).

There are lots of arguments against putting ISO in base kits or including support at all - whilst my preference is for UK ISO, I still buy stuff that only includes basic ISO support (note as I said above ISO-US is different). I get most of these arguments. I understand them: it basically boils down to the markets, is there significant demand for the keys, and does this make financial sense to the majority of buyers.

Yes ISO has always been included traditionally, and lots of base kits used to carry UK ISO as the default option. But now people are pushing for cheaper kits, which means culling keys. Fully understand. But that being said, financial motivation isnt the only reason to do something. Cost reduction, price per key, volume of users all boil into one argument - ďdoes it make financial sense to add 4 keys to a base kit at a cost of say $2-3 for c. 10% of users at bestĒ.

The answer to this is usually a resounding ďNOĒ, and then ISO gets moved into a subsequent kit (numpad, 40ís etc), or removed in its entirety.

There are challenges and benefits to moving it to a kit, and I appreciate that - the benefit being it reduces base kit cost slightly, the negatives being that the user that needs those 4 keys now needs to pay $40 or more for a kit for keys that used to be in the base...(look at GMK calm Depths - had ISO UK and a huge base at a great price; other sets have fewer keys and are way more expensive (and I know that there is MOQís and price breaks at play here as well - its just an example).

But why does a financial motivator have to be the only rational for any decision? EU folks tend to spend less, buy fewer keysets, and have a smaller community. Look at any GB - the NA figures are higher than the EU ones for pretty much everything in the hobby from boards to keysets to artisans (except Norde/Uk/ISO kits). But that doesnít mean there isnt a community here. That doesnít mean that a minority should be ignored.

In any other industry, country, hobbies etc Minorities are supported. As this hobby becomes bigger and bigger we should be more Inclusive rather than Exclusive from an inclusivity POV. As the hobby grows in time there is more demand for everything. That will include ISO in terms of sheer numbers; even if the overall %age doesnít change.

I dont think there is a right or wrong answer to any of this - Iím just playing Devils Advocate to say that in a hobby not all decisions should be made on financial factors alone. We often make decisions for reasons of Inclusion, sentiment, historical value, future value etc - but here the only real argument is a financial one.

My personal feeling is that Iíd like to see a basic ISO support at least in either the base or a kit (i.e. numpad - the buyers for each will bolster the others). I dont want to have to pay more for the kit for those keys, but I will do to get my compatibility.

Iíd also like to see more NordeUK kits run outside of Massdrop - In the EU we just hit MOQ on WoB and BoW NordeUK kits which is great.

Finally - Iíd like us to be more inclusive as a community, and even if ISO moves out of base kits more often going forwards, I really dislike how people are mocked and derided for using ISO; thats just unfair and drives exclusivity and isnít fair on newcomers to the community. We should strive to get along, reduce drama and increase positivity in the community.

I know Iíve not addressed everything or gone into tons of details for the arguments above - this is just an overview, but Iím happy to discuss some of the finer points.







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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #83 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 02:46:04 »
To add a bit more to the above poster:

The hard cold fact is that, while ISO users keep demanding for.vendors to eat their VAT cost, they fail to see that the majority of buyers in America, China, and the rest of Asia are in fact eating the cost of production for their ISO keys.

And now to come and demand everyone should also eat the cost of a bunch other ISO-exclusive keys? Jeez, try seeing it from our perspective too, you guys.

Eating production cost for 4 iso keys is perhaps around $5-10 at most. (Guessing here, don't know the numbers.) Eating VAT is 20% on top of an already paid 20% from EU to US. So technically it's more than 20% from the original GMK price. I'm not starting the VAT war here, but your equation makes no sense.

Reading through the comments the majority of ISO users are actually able to see it from your perspective and agree that just the 4 basic ISO keys in base kits will be enough. That's what they need to have fitting caps. An additional NordeUK kit is mostly a big bonus. I'm getting the feeling though that you lack to see it from ISO perspective. Would you like it if you physically CAN'T put keycaps on your keyboard because they simply don't exist...?

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #84 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 03:56:28 »
But why does a financial motivator have to be the only rational for any decision?

You did a great job of outlining how reasonable an idea financial motivation is in the bulk of your post actually.

I think you'll find there are very few who are seriously asking for ISO to be banned entirely, or anything of that sort; just for those who need that extra compatibility to pay for it. Personally id be fine if that was the case for alot of extra keys being included in the majority of sets nowadays. GMK sets in particular have become quite bloated. Its rare (and welcomed) when a set can fit into a single tray.

Combining ISO with 40's or Numpad is just as unfair to be honest. As in those cases you are still forcing other people to pay more for the sake of someone else's compatibility.

I agree with being inclusive and not shaming others for their layout choices, but its not a charity. Its actually rather entitled to try and justify asking everyone/anyone else to pony up more cash to help meet MOQs. Ultimately the companies making the keycaps are running a business, and the majority of buyers (who presumably work for their money) are tired of subsidizing other users for keys that are useless to them.

Would you like it if you physically CAN'T put keycaps on your keyboard because they simply don't exist...?

Of course not, which is why I have no trouble paying more for any non-standard layouts I want to cover.

I also wouldnt expect other people to pay more for keys they cant use, just so I dont have to pay anything extra for my non-standard layout.

No one is arguing not to provide ISO coverage period - simply to move it to its own kit.

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #85 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 04:27:39 »
But why does a financial motivator have to be the only rational for any decision?

You did a great job of outlining how reasonable an idea financial motivation is in the bulk of your post actually.

I think you'll find there are very few who are seriously asking for ISO to be banned entirely, or anything of that sort; just for those who need that extra compatibility to pay for it. Personally id be fine if that was the case for alot of extra keys being included in the majority of sets nowadays. GMK sets in particular have become quite bloated. Its rare (and welcomed) when a set can fit into a single tray.

Combining ISO with 40's or Numpad is just as unfair to be honest. As in those cases you are still forcing other people to pay more for the sake of someone else's compatibility.

I agree with being inclusive and not shaming others for their layout choices, but its not a charity. Its actually rather entitled to try and justify asking everyone/anyone else to pony up more cash to help meet MOQs. Ultimately the companies making the keycaps are running a business, and the majority of buyers (who presumably work for their money) are tired of subsidizing other users for keys that are useless to them.

Would you like it if you physically CAN'T put keycaps on your keyboard because they simply don't exist...?

Of course not, which is why I have no trouble paying more for any non-standard layouts I want to cover.

I also wouldnt expect other people to pay more for keys they cant use, just so I dont have to pay anything extra for my non-standard layout.

No one is arguing not to provide ISO coverage period - simply to move it to its own kit.

Underlined the part I'm replying to. This is the main issue. You're saying it but I'm sure others think the same so don't see it as an attack on you :) In this case you're the messenger :P

This means that, according to you and perhaps others, ISO is not a standard layout. And even though I'm an ANSI user, I can't agree on that. ANSI is a standard layout for most of the users in the community, I think we can all agree on that. But what makes ISO a non-standard layout? At the very least the 4 basic ISO keys have been included in many base kits for years. And now all of a sudden, perhaps because of price perhaps other reasons, ISO is turned into a non-standard layout.

Can I make F keys a non-standard key as well? Only use them on one board, have no use for them :P


Imho, a base kit should do what the name implies. It should provide a base that supports as much standard keyboards as possible without completely breaking the bank. The 4 basic ISO keys are required for this.

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #86 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 04:46:14 »
But why does a financial motivator have to be the only rational for any decision?

You did a great job of outlining how reasonable an idea financial motivation is in the bulk of your post actually.

I think you'll find there are very few who are seriously asking for ISO to be banned entirely, or anything of that sort; just for those who need that extra compatibility to pay for it. Personally id be fine if that was the case for alot of extra keys being included in the majority of sets nowadays. GMK sets in particular have become quite bloated. Its rare (and welcomed) when a set can fit into a single tray.

Combining ISO with 40's or Numpad is just as unfair to be honest. As in those cases you are still forcing other people to pay more for the sake of someone else's compatibility.

I agree with being inclusive and not shaming others for their layout choices, but its not a charity. Its actually rather entitled to try and justify asking everyone/anyone else to pony up more cash to help meet MOQs. Ultimately the companies making the keycaps are running a business, and the majority of buyers (who presumably work for their money) are tired of subsidizing other users for keys that are useless to them.

Would you like it if you physically CAN'T put keycaps on your keyboard because they simply don't exist...?

Of course not, which is why I have no trouble paying more for any non-standard layouts I want to cover.

I also wouldnt expect other people to pay more for keys they cant use, just so I dont have to pay anything extra for my non-standard layout.

No one is arguing not to provide ISO coverage period - simply to move it to its own kit.

Everyone is paying for keys they won't end up using. There are other reasons to put keys in a base kit aside from financial efficiency too. As others have said, it'd be much more convenient for me if ANSI and F-keys were left out, but a base kit is meant to provide basic coverage. It's not any more unfair that people who don't use ISO have to pay for a few extra ISO keys than it's unfair that an ISO user has to pay for ANSI keys they won't use, or someone who doesn't use F keys has to pay for those.

I totally agree that set designers are running a business, but ethics and inclusive design choices do have a seat at the table. As a community we have a responsibility to think about minority use cases and make sure they're catered for. This means basic ISO in base kit at a bare minimum, and NorDeUk if it's at all possible.

If you optimise too much for the majority of users then the set becomes more homogenous, less inclusive and totally unusable for the entire ISO-using keyboard community. As mechanical keyboards grows as a hobby, it'll become more global and it'll become increasingly important to support ISO. When people are spending $100+ on a base kit, the least they can expect is for it to physically fit on their board.

ISO is often presented as a default option on most popular boards, which sort of reflects the 50/50% split of ISO vs ANSI in the non-mechanical keyboard world. To not provide coverage for something which is one of the default layout varieties is just bad design IMO. The benefits brought to the set designer and ANSI-only buyers (financially) surely doesn't outweigh alienating an entire community of keyboard users.

Do we really want ANSI-only keysets?

Do we really want to pretend like ISO is some weird esoteric layout instead of what many in the world consider to be "the standard"?

Do we really not want to enable people who are spending $150+ on plastic to have correct legends on their keyboards so that other people spending $150+ on plastic can save $2-3?
« Last Edit: Mon, 24 June 2019, 04:49:07 by lewisflude »
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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #87 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 06:02:07 »
Ö
Earlier in the thread, Zambumon asked possibly the most poignant & obvious question that seems to be (purposely?) ignored by those who discount Drops gb numbers as legitimate data. Ill pose the same question to you: Why do you list VAT as an additional cost as if it wouldn't exist if buying from MyKeyboard.eu, or similar eu proxy?

You're actually right on this ó extra VAT costs (or IVA, in my case, or plain "sales tax" in the USA's case in the near future) can't be part of the equation.


Additionally, as others have pointed out elsewhere in the thread: ISO isnt used exclusively in Europe. There are plenty of areas other than the EU where Drop is also a viable option to ISO users and yet despite this, the demand simply isnt there. Hell, the closest non-standard layout to the International Kit is Colevrak, which should give you some perspective as to how prevalent ISO is. Its also solid data in establishing the fact that while it may be arguably widespread in oem keyboards globally, ISO is obviously a non-standard layout in the custom keyboard community.

But here you are dead wrong (YMMV). ISO totally IS a standard in the custom keyboard community, even if "less popular" than ANSI; both, after all, predate this hobby itself. Also, I'll stress this, please let's stop the faulty argument of calling ISO a "layout", as it is NOT a "layout" any more than the stepped/non-stepped Caps Lock variants are. ANSI/ISO left Shift and ANSI/ISO(/BAE/TIE) Enter are variants within a same layout (be it battleship, TKL, 60% or 30% [Ü]).


In any case, regardless of the cost, the four additional extra keys to provide full ISO UK coverage in the base kit would have to be subsidized by the vastly overwhelming majority purchasers who have no use for them in the first place (in addition to the extra they are already paying for to have basic physical ISO coverage included.) If you cant see that, then this is a pointless debate. Its not the lack of EU sales that have designers considering dropping ISO support, its the lack of ISO sales globally, in general.

Lack of ISO sales is explained in part because of lack of support for it in the first place. The rest is, obviously, ANSI's higher popularity within the community.

A community that GROWS, as has been mentioned several times now. A community that at some point in the foreseeable future WILL have a substantial percentage of ISO users. It's not a smart strategy anymore to keep pushing ISO aside as if it were the plague (again, while much lesser used keys, like the 2.0U Shift key, get added to the base kit without any questioning), if only to preserve the inve$tmÄnt a buyer makes on a kit (if a couple years from now he or she might want to sell it, only for his or her chances to be hurt by having only a part of the market to cater to).




[Ü] A 30% with a BAE. That is a mental image I did NOT want in my head...
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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #88 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 06:17:12 »
Your post is pretty good. I'll just make a comment on one small thing:

1 - Basic ISO support for EU users is 4 keys, 1.25u Shift, 1uR4, 1uR3 and the ISO enter. ISO-US does not cover this as it uses full left shift and the ISO enter key with the 1uR3... small distinction but I do feel that this stuff is important.

US ISO is short left Shift and vertical Enter. What you describe (long left Shift and vertical Enter) is the ANSISO hybrid (just as ISANSI is the hybrid of short left Shift and horizontal Enter).


This isn't just "OCD" from my part (ok, it is, but there is a point to it): part of the heavy opposition to ISO support from ANSI users is that "ISO support" (4 keys) is often equated to "UK ISO support" (9 keys), so we need to be extra precise in what we talk about here, to avoid further problems down the line ("What do you mean, four keys? It's supposed to be TWO!").
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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #89 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 06:17:20 »

You did a great job of outlining how reasonable an idea financial motivation is in the bulk of your post actually.

Yes, I know - my point was I appreciate the financial side - but why is that the ONLY consideration point to make a decision. You seem to have missed that.



Combining ISO with 40's or Numpad is just as unfair to be honest. As in those cases you are still forcing other people to pay more for the sake of someone else's compatibility.


We can all agree ISO wonít make it on its own to MOQ - which is actually partially the route cause we are experiencing here. The GMK MOQ for child kits is still usually 100 units.




I agree with being inclusive and not shaming others for their layout choices, but its not a charity. Its actually rather entitled to try and justify asking everyone/anyone else to pony up more cash to help meet MOQs. Ultimately the companies making the keycaps are running a business, and the majority of buyers (who presumably work for their money) are tired of subsidizing other users for keys that are useless to them.


I see this as a null argument tbh - we all get keys we donít use in any kit. I rarely use ANSI keys for example but I have to purchase them. Saying that you only want keys you use in a base kit and nothing you wonít use as you donít want to pay for em is kinda entitled tbh. We all have to make sure we are purchasing stuff to help others out sometimes.

And if buying two kits bundled together gets me the keys I need and helps someone else hit MOQ for the kit they need then Iím comfortable with that.

This comes back to my earlier point of everyone wanting to make this decisions solely based on financial motivation and not for any other reason.

You have to remember that this is something that was a standard inclusion and is now being phased out. Thatís quite emotive for some. But itís a double edged sword as we need to embrace change for the right reasons. Iím not sure saying ďwe canít include a dollars worth of keys in the base set; so you now have to pay $50 to re-obtain themĒ is necessarily the right view to have. I must have over 100 ansi enters Iíll never use, but I never begrudged buying them. Same as numpads. I have one board they get used on, but I have no issue buying a set if it includes numpad.

And some sets manage to include a numpad and ISO at a competitive price point; and cheaper than some sets that donít....



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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #90 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 06:23:23 »
For keycaps personally I won't buy it unless it supports my layout with the correct legends, but I'm in the minority here (I think?). This hobby is a small one it would be nice if we weren't further fragmented by people refusing to offer coverage for everyone. I think GMK cafe is a good example of how kits can be done in such a way that minimizes overall the number of kits but also gets a good coverage of layouts which are likely to hit MOQ with people not having too many 'wasted' keys.

I'm gonna have to disagree here. GMK Cafť's proposed "sugar" kit is supposed to be "numpad + ISO", but instead is actually "numpad + UK ISO". If I were to consider this for my upcoming build, I'd have to buy a kit with 32 keys... to use exactly THREE of them. I won't say anything of the lack of numpad comma here, though, as that's another matter (oops, I just did).

Surprisingly, the 1.25U left Shift is already in the base kit... why is it there?
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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #91 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 06:29:47 »
No one is arguing not to provide ISO coverage period - simply to move it to its own kit.

At some point, it'll become feasible to have a smaller base kit and a larger bunch of extra SMALL kits with 4-ish keys. When that happens, we'll be able to drop, for example, 1800 support (moved to the 1800 kit) and BOTH ISO and ANSI variants (each moved to their own extra kit). Heck, we'll be able to eliminate the base kit entirely and sell separately alphas from mods (different alpha packs for each language; different "ANSI/ISO agnostic" mod packs for iconists and legendists).

Until that happens, we need to reach a good compromise. Let's do that.
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On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #92 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 06:45:46 »
No one is arguing not to provide ISO coverage period - simply to move it to its own kit.

At some point, it'll become feasible to have a smaller base kit and a larger bunch of extra SMALL kits with 4-ish keys. When that happens, we'll be able to drop, for example, 1800 support (moved to the 1800 kit) and BOTH ISO and ANSI variants (each moved to their own extra kit). Heck, we'll be able to eliminate the base kit entirely and sell separately alphas from mods (different alpha packs for each language; different "ANSI/ISO agnostic" mod packs for iconists and legendists).

Until that happens, we need to reach a good compromise. Let's do that.
We used to have kits for ďexotic layoutsĒ like Tsangan or Moggle.
At some point, people noticed how popular those kits were, so they integrated them into the base kit.
Meanwhile, the one recent time we experimented with moving the ISO keys out, well:

And at >800 base kits sold, you canít say this was not a popular set.
« Last Edit: Mon, 24 June 2019, 06:47:52 by nguyenhimself »

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #93 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 06:52:06 »
I'm not saying that those numbers don't say anything. However... it's just one set that was sold, so also can't say it really says anything. Plus it's a pretty "out there" colorway that doesn't appeal to everyone, perhaps better to look at numbers from Oblivion V2 for example.

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #94 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 06:57:04 »
221666-0

In Oblivion, 66 international kits out of 1767 base kits is about 4% of all orders.

Imagine if any other community alienated 4% of the hobbyists around the world so that the majority can save less than 1-2% off their order? All of us support keys we don't use, it's just par for the course with buying keysets. Removing ISO benefits many people a tiny bit (financially) at the cost of totally removing that set as an option for a large community of people. Not all Europeans want to use ANSI.

This is a clear example of how Jamon is a really bad example to cherrypick. This is especially surprising given how over 50% of all traffic to Drop comes from America/Canada alone. The site and it's userbase has a massive US bias that is not representative of the wider keyboard community.
« Last Edit: Mon, 24 June 2019, 07:05:59 by lewisflude »
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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #95 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 07:00:10 »
It makes sense (to me) to compare a set that has everything split out. https://drop.com/buy/80090

UK + NORDE kits = 122 ISO kits

Is that really that far off the other 'unusual' kits sold.

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On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #96 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 07:05:24 »
(Attachment Link)

In Oblivion, 66 international kits out of 788 base kits is over 8% of all orders.

Imagine if any other community alienated 8% of the hobbyists around the world so that the majority can save less than 1-2% off their order? All of us support keys we don't use, it's just par for the course with buying keysets. Removing ISO benefits many people a tiny bit (financially) at the cost of totally removing that set as an option for a large community of people. Not all Europeans want to use ANSI.

This is a clear example of how Jamon is a really bad example to cherrypick. This is especially surprising given how over 50% of all traffic to Drop comes from America/Canada alone. The site and it's userbase has a massive US bias that is not representative of the wider keyboard community.
Oblivion has 4 base kits, 3 if you (rightly) exclude the Assembly one.
Thatís 68 out of 1615, or 4%.
And remember, Massdrop GBs donít have international proxies, so those numbers include all the buyers from China and other Asian countries, all of whom use ANSI.
« Last Edit: Mon, 24 June 2019, 07:07:47 by nguyenhimself »

Offline lewisflude

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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #97 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 07:06:58 »
(Attachment Link)

In Oblivion, 66 international kits out of 788 base kits is over 8% of all orders.

Imagine if any other community alienated 8% of the hobbyists around the world so that the majority can save less than 1-2% off their order? All of us support keys we don't use, it's just par for the course with buying keysets. Removing ISO benefits many people a tiny bit (financially) at the cost of totally removing that set as an option for a large community of people. Not all Europeans want to use ANSI.

This is a clear example of how Jamon is a really bad example to cherrypick. This is especially surprising given how over 50% of all traffic to Drop comes from America/Canada alone. The site and it's userbase has a massive US bias that is not representative of the wider keyboard community.
Oblivion has 4 base kits, 3 if you (rightly) exclude the Assembly one.
Thatís 68 out of 1615, or 4%.

Worked that out after I hit the submit button and have updated my post. I think the point still stands with 4% as it does 8%.
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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #98 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 07:13:09 »
(Attachment Link)

In Oblivion, 66 international kits out of 788 base kits is over 8% of all orders.

Imagine if any other community alienated 8% of the hobbyists around the world so that the majority can save less than 1-2% off their order? All of us support keys we don't use, it's just par for the course with buying keysets. Removing ISO benefits many people a tiny bit (financially) at the cost of totally removing that set as an option for a large community of people. Not all Europeans want to use ANSI.

This is a clear example of how Jamon is a really bad example to cherrypick. This is especially surprising given how over 50% of all traffic to Drop comes from America/Canada alone. The site and it's userbase has a massive US bias that is not representative of the wider keyboard community.
Oblivion has 4 base kits, 3 if you (rightly) exclude the Assembly one.
Thatís 68 out of 1615, or 4%.
And remember, Massdrop GBs donít have international proxies, so those numbers include all the buyers from China and other Asian countries, all of whom use ANSI.

Iím aware that US, Canada, China primarily use ANSI, whereas the rest of the world uses ISO. Itís about a 50/50 split globally.
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Re: On the availability of ISO in GB
« Reply #99 on: Mon, 24 June 2019, 07:24:51 »
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In Oblivion, 66 international kits out of 1767 base kits is about 4% of all orders.

Note that ALL base kits (and the alternate alphas) in Oblivion already support US ISO, so that 4% is strictly for the international kit... which is NORDEUK with a different name.
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