Author Topic: Thinking about Dvorak  (Read 18648 times)

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Offline mizzoperator

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #50 on: Wed, 02 October 2019, 14:15:11 »
Imho, switching layouts is a massive pita. I'd rather lug around a programmable 60% (or something)  :thumb:

Yum yum, I love flatbread.
Yeah, though, it'd be easier to lug around a programmable 60% rather than change the layout of your keyboard to Dvorak when you come in and back to QWERTY when you leave every single time you come to work everyday.
Sure, it doesn't take long, but it begins to grind on you every day. Additionally, if you're forgetful like me and accidentally leave it on Dvorak, somebody is going to yell at you (especially if your company employs Hoteling in their cubicles).
Linears are for linear people. No offense if you use linears.
I prefer tactile switches, I'm reluctantly using the AULA SI-859 and my pronouns are she/her.

Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #51 on: Wed, 02 October 2019, 14:26:32 »
Yum yum, I love flatbread.
Yeah, though, it'd be easier to lug around a programmable 60% rather than change the layout of your keyboard to Dvorak when you come in and back to QWERTY when you leave every single time you come to work everyday.
Sure, it doesn't take long, but it begins to grind on you every day. Additionally, if you're forgetful like me and accidentally leave it on Dvorak, somebody is going to yell at you (especially if your company employs Hoteling in their cubicles).

In that case, a lots of people have dedicated work keyboards (that stay at work), just so they don't have to "lug".

P.S. There's even a tiny USB-USB converter which you can use to convert any (cheap) keyboard into anything your hearth desires (if you don't feel comfy leaving your $$$ keyboard at work).
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline Saga

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #52 on: Thu, 03 October 2019, 16:45:43 »
Nobody dares to ask longtime Dvorak/Colemak users if they would ever voluntarily consider downgrading to QWERTY?
I dare you to find someone who will anwser yes.

People really into homeopathy generally don't want to let it go, either.

Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #53 on: Fri, 04 October 2019, 03:40:41 »
Nobody dares to ask longtime Dvorak/Colemak users if they would ever voluntarily consider downgrading to QWERTY?
I dare you to find someone who will anwser yes.

People really into homeopathy generally don't want to let it go, either.

What I don't like is that there's more discouragement than encouragement when people want to learn/try/use new things.
Do you think you are better than us? Do you think you are smarter than us? Translate https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jantelagen
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Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #54 on: Fri, 04 October 2019, 04:44:00 »
Nobody dares to ask longtime Dvorak/Colemak users if they would ever voluntarily consider downgrading to QWERTY?
I dare you to find someone who will anwser yes.

People really into homeopathy generally don't want to let it go, either.

What I don't like is that there's more discouragement than encouragement when people want to learn/try/use new things.
Do you think you are better than us? Do you think you are smarter than us? Translate https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jantelagen
 
 
At first I thought he was trying to have a reasonable discussion, but it's become pretty clear that he's just an idiot who wants to feel superior to people who put in more effort and are better than him.

Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #55 on: Fri, 04 October 2019, 06:03:21 »
At first I thought he was trying to have a reasonable discussion, but it's become pretty clear that he's just an idiot who wants to feel superior to people who put in more effort and are better than him.

100% true.
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline Saga

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #56 on: Fri, 04 October 2019, 13:54:27 »
Nobody dares to ask longtime Dvorak/Colemak users if they would ever voluntarily consider downgrading to QWERTY?
I dare you to find someone who will anwser yes.

People really into homeopathy generally don't want to let it go, either.

What I don't like is that there's more discouragement than encouragement when people want to learn/try/use new things.
Do you think you are better than us? Do you think you are smarter than us? Translate https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jantelagen
 
 
At first I thought he was trying to have a reasonable discussion, but it's become pretty clear that he's just an idiot who wants to feel superior to people who put in more effort and are better than him.

Honestly a pretty hash and unfair characterization. I think itís completely fine if people want to use any layout they choose, but thereís a lot of people who genuinely believe that switching layouts is objectively faster for typing speed, which is really not backed up by too much evidence at this point; at most studies show a 5% boost to typing speed, which comes with a lot of downsides. People should do whatever they want but it's unfair to pretend that the efficiency boost from Dvorak is more than placebo in most cases.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/001872088202400502
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 October 2019, 14:05:18 by Saga »

Offline Polymer

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #57 on: Mon, 07 October 2019, 16:14:59 »
The study is flawed for a number of reasons...although I do agree with some of what you're saying..

Someone that is typing 75WPM having switched to Dvorak, could have gotten there with QWERTY because honestly, 75 WPM, while very sufficient for many, is not that fast...so that person, while they may believe Dvorak is what got them there, the result is pretty ordinary, enough to where I wouldn't give credit to the layout, more so just the fact that the person needed to practice and were likely forced to practice properly...or used the opportunity to...

Someone that is typing 120+WPM on QWERTY....there is going to be a limit on how fast they can go..and part of that limit is the inefficiency of QWERTY as a layout...and I have no doubt that if you want to get much faster than that, a layout change that is more efficient will help get you there...

That doesn't mean people shouldn't learn something like Dvorak..although I'm not sure I would recommend that from the start just because of the standard of QWERTY.   The reality is, even if you learn Dvorak, you will need to learn QWERTY..as you will, at some point, be forced to use it even if you don't want to, maybe not for long but enough....But I also think that is something you can eventually switch back and forth with so that shouldn't be a problem...

I do agree that I don't understand why people are bashing people that want to learn a new layout..I think its great and there isn't anything wrong with that....but I also agree that for many, the gains they've had aren't necessarily because of the layout..

Offline Saga

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #58 on: Mon, 07 October 2019, 20:20:18 »
The study is flawed for a number of reasons...

As a publishing researcher I firmly disagree with statements like this presented without qualification.

The idea that DVORAK is faster doesn't really hold water for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is the goal of minimizing travel time isn't the end-all, be-all of optimization, and things like clustering for travel matter a fair bit as well.

If people want to use DVORAK, more power to them, but there's not much evidence to back up the core claims.

Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #59 on: Mon, 07 October 2019, 22:21:06 »
The study is flawed for a number of reasons...

As a publishing researcher I firmly disagree with statements like this presented without qualification.

The idea that DVORAK is faster doesn't really hold water for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is the goal of minimizing travel time isn't the end-all, be-all of optimization, and things like clustering for travel matter a fair bit as well.

If people want to use DVORAK, more power to them, but there's not much evidence to back up the core claims.
 
 
Why does it offend you so much when someone points at clear evidence of something and you still rail on and on and on about it? Do you not realize how meaningless this entire discussion is and how asinine you are being? Give it a rest, every single person in this is tired of responding to your nonstop threadcrapping. You're wrong and making ten posts flaming other people isn't going to change that.

Offline Saga

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #60 on: Mon, 07 October 2019, 23:03:48 »
Jesus dude, step back from the keyboard a bit.

Itís fine to like something because you like it. Thatís a good enough reason, it doesnít need to be objectively better to be what you prefer. The notion that there is clear evidence that Dvorak is superior for typists is simply not substantiated. If itís more comfortable for you, then great! That sounds like as good of a reason as any to use it. The OP deserved a fair, data-backed response, and if that personally offends you then sorry, maybe donít read what I say?

Also, Iím done replying to you, but Iíll continue replying to others who reply to me regardless of your overly abusive behaviour.

Edit: your definition of ďflamingĒ is baffling
« Last Edit: Mon, 07 October 2019, 23:09:15 by Saga »

Offline Polymer

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #61 on: Tue, 08 October 2019, 03:46:38 »
The study is flawed for a number of reasons...

As a publishing researcher I firmly disagree with statements like this presented without qualification.

The idea that DVORAK is faster doesn't really hold water for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is the goal of minimizing travel time isn't the end-all, be-all of optimization, and things like clustering for travel matter a fair bit as well.

If people want to use DVORAK, more power to them, but there's not much evidence to back up the core claims.

I don't care if you disagree with the statement..the original "study" is not a study..just a mish mash of trying to discredit other studies while accepting others..the problem with many of the studies quoted in the "study" is they themselves are flawed...They make associations when those associations aren't there.  The assumptions were flawed, the process was flawed and the analysis was flawed.

Efficiency isn't everything and as I said before, if you're in the 30-70WPM range, there is so much improvement that can be had in QWERTY because you're nowhere near where efficiency starts to play a part in what you're trying to achieve.  You're probably not using proper form if you're still in that range and certainly you have a long ways to go before the efficiency of the layout plays a part...You have flawed subjects where it would hardly matter what layout they're using and so the study itself is flawed at least as far as the potential for Dvorak...If you can't see how their studies are flawed and picked apart each one, then you're injecting your own bias. 

But once you get to into the 100s...the efficiency will allow you to go further because it becomes more and more difficult to move your fingers fast enough in an inefficient way...Minimizing movement and balancing across both hands gives you better efficiency and speed and fewer awkward combinations.   The words that slow you down the most when you get fast enough are the words that are inefficient to type.

As far as whether or not it is worthwhile training people on Dvorak or the cost to change standards makes sense, the answer is clear, it is not worth doing.  Only a fraction of people are typing fast enough with QWERTY where a new layout may take their speed to a new level...and only a fraction of those people, at that point, even care about looking at doing so. 

In case it isn't clear..
I'm agreeing with you that for most people, them going to Dvorak didn't make any difference at all..maybe they're typing faster but that could've easily been achieved with QWERTY.  Comparing going from 35WPM to 55WPM doesn't mean Dvorak is better..just means they spent more time working on it. 
I'm not agreeing with you about the potential of Dvorak...because the reality is, QWERTY is not efficient...and when you start reaching a certain speed, those inefficiencies become more obvious and that's were Dvorak will start helping out significantly more.  But I also think most people won't bother because going to this next step doesn't really benefit most people unless you have a job where that extra bit of speed..say going from 120WPM to 150WPM, nets you something significant. 

Offline mizzoperator

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #62 on: Tue, 08 October 2019, 08:03:00 »
Good god, guys. Calm down. It's just a typing layout.
It's all just a matter of preference at the end of the day.
Linears are for linear people. No offense if you use linears.
I prefer tactile switches, I'm reluctantly using the AULA SI-859 and my pronouns are she/her.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #63 on: Tue, 08 October 2019, 23:28:43 »
I think that's part of the discussion..to some they think it is just a preference of layout...to others it is more than that and the efficiency can be significant...

There is a truth in both statements...

To be honest, I think both of those people arguing one side or the other ONLY have only half an argument..

Offline Stupidface

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #64 on: Wed, 09 October 2019, 07:00:43 »
P.S. There's even a tiny USB-USB converter which you can use to convert any (cheap) keyboard into anything your hearth desires (if you don't feel comfy leaving your $$$ keyboard at work).

Can you please give the name of this device (or, better still, a link to a product page)?  It sounds potentially useful for anyone lacking the funds to purchase another keyboard.


Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #65 on: Fri, 11 October 2019, 06:42:34 »
P.S. There's even a tiny USB-USB converter which you can use to convert any (cheap) keyboard into anything your hearth desires (if you don't feel comfy leaving your $$$ keyboard at work).

Can you please give the name of this device (or, better still, a link to a product page)?  It sounds potentially useful for anyone lacking the funds to purchase another keyboard.

I can only promote software I've used, and it's the TMK.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69169.0

If you don't want to buy an assembled one (price ballpark $50) you can build your own, or if you don't like TMK, feel free to dig on google, or dig on geekhack (I'm sure there are several decent alternatives).
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #66 on: Wed, 13 November 2019, 02:38:08 »
Reading through the comments, I didn't want to start some kind of verbal war.
Dvorak will always have its followers and there will always be those who claim that any layout over QWERTY is a pointless exercise.

Currently I have switched to Dvorak. I am no longer thinking about it.
Now this thread isn't about which one is better. Clearly on the side of numbers, metrics, etc., Dvorak is clearly better than QWERTY; and Colemak will be better than Dvorak.
But numbers aren't the deciding factor. Like others have said, it is clearly a matter of preference.
I came across a couple of videos, that I thought I would share.





Should answer a couple of questions that were asked before about long term Dvorak users.

At the moment, I am plateau at 41WPM in Dvorak. About the same as I was on QWERTY. So I am not sure how it matters.

What got me started thinking about Dvorak:

  • I wanted to increase my speed. I got tired of being held up at 40 WPM or less on QWERTY. Yes I do touch type. I thought that Dvorak will be better as it is certainly more comfortable. I figured that something that is more comfortable would probably help my fingers move more easier across the keys.
  • The typing comfort would probably avoid developing RSI and stuff. I've always thought that prevention is better than cure. In the long run, I didn't want to wait to have issues before moving over to something more comfortable.

Having moved over I have noticed a few things.
  • I sort of feel that my fingers are getting a bit cramped of being on the home row so often. Maybe it is something just to get used to.
  • I kind of feel that my fingers move more freely to the QWERTY layout; albeit not as fluidly across the keys as with Dvorak. Again, this could just mean that I am not fully trained and ready with Dvorak just as yet.
  • I sometimes kind of type one handed, for instance whilst drinking a cup of coffee or choco. On Dvorak it isn't as easy with this because the keys are more dispersed in a latitudinal manner.

The main factor for me is that I don't want to develop RSI or anything else down the line. I pretty sure that I would like to give Dvorak a pretty good chance. The one reason why I moved away from Colemak was because typing long stints made my arms ache. I didn't face that with QWERTY. But on QWERTY I plateaued at 40WPM and after a couple of years it was clear I wasn't getting faster.

QWERTY has quite a few benefits in the sense that by being proficient on it, I am able to type on any system pretty quickly.
It didn't make my arms ache and in a way felt more comfortable for my fingers. I am not sure what to make of it as yet as I am still getting to grips with Dvorak. Time is too soon to say.


« Last Edit: Wed, 13 November 2019, 05:01:05 by knightjp »

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #67 on: Tue, 19 November 2019, 21:20:58 »
I've been thinking of switching to Dvorak for quite a while though. I have been using QWERTY for a while now. I've noticed that for me, coming back to QWERTY is not that bad as I believe that the layout is so imprinted in my brain, my fingers already know where each letter is.
And I think that for those who choose to use an alternative layout and still keep the keys in the standard layout, this will be the case. The image of QWERTY is just imprinted in the brain because every time you look at your keyboard, that is what you see.

However I've noticed that I'm not making much improvement with QWERTY anymore. While others are getting over 70 WPM, I'm just barely scratching 35 WPM. Its slow. Too slow to be taken seriously.

I noticed that I was far more comfortable and a bit faster when using Dvorak. However I switched to QWERTY because I wanted to be able to type fast on anything without getting too hung up on layouts.

At first, you may notice a huge slowdown in your typing speed. This is perfectly normal, I had this when learning qwerty.

To get as fast as me it takes Years of practice . I practiced every day, for two hours straight, competing against other typists as well as doing exercises on websites.

That's probably why you would see over 1000 typing tests and at least 10 per day on my 10fastfingers typing profile.

Don't worry, you will get there soon. Have motivation and courage!

What is your wpm? I have been typing in QWERTY and I don't know if I want to switch to a different layout.

Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #68 on: Sun, 24 November 2019, 05:17:29 »
What is your wpm? I have been typing in QWERTY and I don't know if I want to switch to a different layout.

That's a good question. I would like to know that as well.

Offline rxc92

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #69 on: Sun, 24 November 2019, 13:55:47 »

Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #70 on: Sat, 30 November 2019, 06:36:19 »
Well being over a 100WPM makes you pretty fast. Way above average I would say.
I guess maybe I should take this as an encouragement to stay on QWERTY.
But what about hand health and comfort in the long run?

Offline Polymer

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #71 on: Sat, 30 November 2019, 18:55:05 »
How much are you typing per day?  I mean thinking about your hands, etc...that sounds great but if you're not typing a lot then it probably doesn't matter all that much.  Given your current speed, I'd say you're not typing a lot...

I'd also argue ergonomics will be more useful to you than changing the layout. 

That doesn't mean stay with QWERTY or go with QWERTY...for sure Dvorak can get you more speed at the really upper levels of speed (if you want to get into the 150+ WPM)...but if your goal is say, 80 WPM or 100 WPM..there is no reason you can't easily get there with QWERTY if you practiced..

Offline iMav

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #72 on: Sat, 30 November 2019, 19:54:34 »
Have you looked into Colemak?


This...

Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #73 on: Fri, 06 December 2019, 16:11:39 »
Have you looked into Colemak?


This...

I have looked at Colemak and even used it for the better part of two years. To be fair, I gave it my best shot and I wasn't impressed with the results. To be honest, while the layout was comfortable, it was only comfortable for short bursts. I did feel my fingers were cramping up after being on the home row for so long.
https://julxrp.wordpress.com/2014/08/25/good-bye-colemak-its-been-fun/

In addition, although is slightly better in feel due to the hand alteration, I am feeling the same when using it for long sessions at the computer. The upside to Dvorak is that my hands feel less tired than when they did with QWERTY. So I have a choice to make..
Cramped fingers or more tired fingers.


Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #74 on: Sat, 07 December 2019, 16:07:03 »
I advise you to stop thinking about Dvorak, Colemak, Workman, Mod-DH...
It's Christmas in two weeks, spend your time with family and loved ones, not learning a new layout  :thumb:
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #75 on: Sun, 08 December 2019, 01:20:37 »
Have you experienced difficulties switching between Dvorak and QWERTY layouts at short notice e.g. being asked of a sudden to type something on a colleague's QWERTY keyboard after you have been typing Dvorak for hours?  Or are you able to transition from one to the other after giving yourself only a minute or two for the different muscle memory to take effect?

I ask because I am interested in how much effort might be involved in making an impromptu switch between different keyboard layouts.

Sorry I missed this post. My apologies.

I have been going back and forth in between DVORAK and QWERTY. Here are my findings.
After getting quite used to the DVORAK layout, I did find that I was making quite a few mistakes when attempting to touch type on QWERTY.
Also, this come as no surprise, but I did feel that typing comes more natural to hand on DVORAK. QWERTY is more of an effort.
However, I am surprised that every time I come back to QWERTY, it takes me about a minute and I can almost touch type on it with the same speed that I am currently typing on DVORAK.
I don't know what to make of that, but I guess that it is because I am using a QWERTY layout keyboard. Constantly looking at it and every other keyboard in the office has basically ingrained it on my brain. I just have to tell my brain that I am using QWERTY, takes about a minute to familiarize myself and away I go. It does not feel as awkward as I thought it would be. 

I advise you to stop thinking about Dvorak, Colemak, Workman, Mod-DH...
It's Christmas in two weeks, spend your time with family and loved ones, not learning a new layout  :thumb:
Haha... Good one.  :thumb: :thumb:
« Last Edit: Sun, 08 December 2019, 01:22:12 by knightjp »

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #76 on: Mon, 09 December 2019, 21:16:51 »
I suppose Dvorak helps you type faster, but it is really going to be a pain to keep up if one has a relatively high WPM like me, at 125-130 average.

Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #77 on: Tue, 10 December 2019, 03:48:24 »
Questions for "qwerty typists":
1) Do you rest at ASDF JKL; >99% of the time?
2) Do you touch-type >99% of the time?
3) Do you use proper fingers >99% of the time?
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #78 on: Thu, 12 December 2019, 11:20:42 »
Questions for "qwerty typists":
1) Do you rest at ASDF JKL; >99% of the time?
2) Do you touch-type >99% of the time?
3) Do you use proper fingers >99% of the time?

Yes.
Yes.
No, I use my left ring finger for Q and Z.
I get around 130 wpm usually.

Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #79 on: Thu, 12 December 2019, 12:03:10 »
No, I use my left ring finger for Q and Z.

First of all, thank you for being honest.

It's really great that you have found one of the inherent flaws of QWERTY (and ANSI).
Luckily, a common fix that ergo people like to use on their laptops is called an "angle mod".
It would essentially enable you to use Z with it's designated finger.
Why would you use it? Well if you don't care to type properly you wouldn't.
Just to be clear, you can increase your ergonomics even without learning Dvorak or Colemak.




P.S. My quest to find a proper QWERTY typist is still ongoing...
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline Polymer

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #80 on: Sat, 14 December 2019, 06:30:23 »
I touch type with proper form using QWERTY. 

1.  yes
2.  yes
3.  yes  I think the only one in question is the number 6 which I've seen some places say it should be with your right index finger...but it is actually closer to the left which is why I use left...I've also seen references to people using it with their left....on the MS natural it is on the left....

I don't quite understand what the issue is with that...or if it is somehow unusual....if you take a typing class, that's how you learn to type...nowadays kids just learn how to type because they have to and develop their own style..but personally this is just how I learned to type so that's what I use...

Offline knightjp

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #81 on: Sun, 15 December 2019, 14:04:10 »
I suppose Dvorak helps you type faster, but it is really going to be a pain to keep up if one has a relatively high WPM like me, at 125-130 average.
Do you type on Dvorak or QWERTY?
I'm still deliberating on whether Dvorak or QWERTY would be better for me.
Could I ask, what are the symptoms for RSI?

Offline VimLover

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #82 on: Sun, 15 December 2019, 20:32:00 »
There is no conclusive evidence that there is any benefit to using Dvorak over qwerty, so I would not suggest switching to "gain something" and instead focus on improving your qwerty typing skills. 35wpm is a beginner pace, so you have plenty of room to grow. Most people can hit the ceiling of what is actually useful in terms of wpm around 80-100 - past that and your limiting factor is how fast you can think up things to type.

Offline superbia

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #83 on: Mon, 16 December 2019, 04:00:34 »
There is no conclusive evidence that there is any benefit to using Dvorak over qwerty, so I would not suggest switching to "gain something" and instead focus on improving your qwerty typing skills. 35wpm is a beginner pace, so you have plenty of room to grow. Most people can hit the ceiling of what is actually useful in terms of wpm around 80-100 - past that and your limiting factor is how fast you can think up things to type.

Assuming that you use Vim, you will have even more difficult time when switching to an advanced layout.
Same can be said for people that use other programs that developed their keybinding system heavily dependent of qwerty layout.
I forgot to mention these type of situations in one of my previous posts because I assumed that people can easily rebind shortcuts in 2020.
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline Tom_Kazansky

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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #84 on: Mon, 16 December 2019, 05:06:16 »
Questions for "qwerty typists":
1) Do you rest at ASDF JKL; >99% of the time?
2) Do you touch-type >99% of the time?
3) Do you use proper fingers >99% of the time?

1) yes
2) yes
3) for some reasons, my right hand always rest a bit lower than usual, resulting in my (right hand) pointer finger cannot reach "Y" and I use left hand pointer finger for "Y" instead. I'm trying to fix this habbit.

-----
I read somewhere that Dvorak is a layout for learning touch-typing, for anyone who can already touch-type, there is no significant benefit.  is this true?
aside from English, I also type other language (Vietnamese)
I have never tried Dovrak, though very tempted.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - Arthur C. Clarke


Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 415
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #85 on: Mon, 16 December 2019, 07:06:38 »
I read somewhere that Dvorak is a layout for learning touch-typing, for anyone who can already touch-type, there is no significant benefit.  is this true?
aside from English, I also type other language (Vietnamese)
I have never tried Dovrak, though very tempted.
 
 
I don't know if it would help as much for Vietnamese, but the vowels on Dvorak are much more accessible so it should be somewhat helpful in typing Vietnamese. Whoever said the first statement is wrong; Dvorak is functionally superior because you don't have to move your hands nearly as far and there's much better alternation of your hands, meaning you don't have to use one hand repeatedly (reducing accuracy and wasting your other hand). I personally went from 70-80 words/min on QWERTY to fairly over 160 on Dvorak. There's a big difference at least for me.

Offline treeleaf64

  • Posts: 387
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #86 on: Mon, 16 December 2019, 13:46:40 »
I read somewhere that Dvorak is a layout for learning touch-typing, for anyone who can already touch-type, there is no significant benefit.  is this true?
aside from English, I also type other language (Vietnamese)
I have never tried Dovrak, though very tempted.
 
 
I don't know if it would help as much for Vietnamese, but the vowels on Dvorak are much more accessible so it should be somewhat helpful in typing Vietnamese. Whoever said the first statement is wrong; Dvorak is functionally superior because you don't have to move your hands nearly as far and there's much better alternation of your hands, meaning you don't have to use one hand repeatedly (reducing accuracy and wasting your other hand). I personally went from 70-80 words/min on QWERTY to fairly over 160 on Dvorak. There's a big difference at least for me.

Ok, that statement alone is going to get me into Dvorak RIGHT NOW. I can't seem to get above 135 wpm on Qwerty and it's really annoying, as I've been there for around 3 months now.

Offline superbia

  • Posts: 130
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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #87 on: Mon, 16 December 2019, 14:46:54 »
I personally went from 70-80 words/min on QWERTY to fairly over 160 on Dvorak. There's a big difference at least for me.

I didn't really feel my WPM improved dramatically with learning Colemak or it's variants. Things just got "less stressful". My coding was more descriptive (more comments, descriptive naming, docs, etc.). I was never able to break the 100 WPM wall. I did break it eventually, but in the meantime I've gotten a split keyboard (so I don't know was it the split keyboard or Colemak DH or me getting more familiar with words in typing speed tests and English spelling).

tldr:
proper QWERTY -> 60 WPM
DH x SPLIT KEEB -> 120 WPM
Keebio Iris 2.8 (Alps) X Colemak Mod-DH

Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 415
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #88 on: Mon, 16 December 2019, 19:15:45 »
I read somewhere that Dvorak is a layout for learning touch-typing, for anyone who can already touch-type, there is no significant benefit.  is this true?
aside from English, I also type other language (Vietnamese)
I have never tried Dovrak, though very tempted.
 
 
I don't know if it would help as much for Vietnamese, but the vowels on Dvorak are much more accessible so it should be somewhat helpful in typing Vietnamese. Whoever said the first statement is wrong; Dvorak is functionally superior because you don't have to move your hands nearly as far and there's much better alternation of your hands, meaning you don't have to use one hand repeatedly (reducing accuracy and wasting your other hand). I personally went from 70-80 words/min on QWERTY to fairly over 160 on Dvorak. There's a big difference at least for me.

Ok, that statement alone is going to get me into Dvorak RIGHT NOW. I can't seem to get above 135 wpm on Qwerty and it's really annoying, as I've been there for around 3 months now.
 
 
Speed is temporary.. ergonomics is eternal 
@tp4tissue

Offline Tom_Kazansky

  • Posts: 361
  • Location: Vietnam
  • Oblivion Knight
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #89 on: Mon, 16 December 2019, 20:40:07 »
I read somewhere that Dvorak is a layout for learning touch-typing, for anyone who can already touch-type, there is no significant benefit.  is this true?
aside from English, I also type other language (Vietnamese)
I have never tried Dovrak, though very tempted.
 
 
I don't know if it would help as much for Vietnamese, but the vowels on Dvorak are much more accessible so it should be somewhat helpful in typing Vietnamese. Whoever said the first statement is wrong; Dvorak is functionally superior because you don't have to move your hands nearly as far and there's much better alternation of your hands, meaning you don't have to use one hand repeatedly (reducing accuracy and wasting your other hand). I personally went from 70-80 words/min on QWERTY to fairly over 160 on Dvorak. There's a big difference at least for me.

Ok, that statement alone is going to get me into Dvorak RIGHT NOW. I can't seem to get above 135 wpm on Qwerty and it's really annoying, as I've been there for around 3 months now.
 
 
Speed is temporary.. ergonomics is eternal 
@tp4tissue

thank for clarifying, I'm gonna try Dvorak... soon  :p

tp4tissue is going to lecture us about tenting AGAIN, I guess  :rolleyes:
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - Arthur C. Clarke


Offline treeleaf64

  • Posts: 387
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #90 on: Mon, 16 December 2019, 20:47:13 »
What about tenting? Is it just more comfortable, or is there actually a significant benefit to typing speed? Nothing really hurts me in Qwerty using a full-size right now, I'm just trying to get the split/Dvorak layout for speed improvement so I can finally break 160 and get on the top 25 list for 10 fastfingers :)

Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 415
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #91 on: Mon, 16 December 2019, 23:46:08 »
What about tenting? Is it just more comfortable, or is there actually a significant benefit to typing speed? Nothing really hurts me in Qwerty using a full-size right now, I'm just trying to get the split/Dvorak layout for speed improvement so I can finally break 160 and get on the top 25 list for 10 fastfingers :)
 
 
Tenting is not good for your wrists, it forces your wrists to bend upwards. Reverse tilt (higher at the spacebar end) is actually good, but it's not commonly offered.

Offline knightjp

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 176
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #92 on: Wed, 18 December 2019, 07:13:11 »

Tenting is not good for your wrists, it forces your wrists to bend upwards. Reverse tilt (higher at the spacebar end) is actually good, but it's not commonly offered.

Tenting is a problem that leads many people to issues with using keyboards regardless of the layout. It is just that on Dvorak the movement is more fluid than on QWERTY. So I guess you would have less people feeling discomfort while typing. But in the long run, tenting will cause issues.

Maybe that is why ergonomic keyboards seem to have more of a benefit over switching layouts.

Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 415
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #93 on: Wed, 18 December 2019, 09:51:59 »
If you're doing something inherently bad for your body, stopping will obviously have a benefit. If you're already doing everything else right, then the only thing that can change is the layout. 
A well-positioned desk and chair will do most of the work; ergonomic boards and layouts are beneficial too, but are primarily for when the problem goes deeper than just posture. 
 
Also, it makes me unhappy to see people who use their computer frequently use a wrist rest. Those things are really no good for you.

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1435
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #94 on: Wed, 18 December 2019, 19:22:19 »
What about tenting? Is it just more comfortable, or is there actually a significant benefit to typing speed? Nothing really hurts me in Qwerty using a full-size right now, I'm just trying to get the split/Dvorak layout for speed improvement so I can finally break 160 and get on the top 25 list for 10 fastfingers :)
 
 
Tenting is not good for your wrists, it forces your wrists to bend upwards. Reverse tilt (higher at the spacebar end) is actually good, but it's not commonly offered.

Are you saying tenting sideways is not good?  Tenting upwards is probably not good..but slightly sideways can have benefits...

As far as Dvorak...I said this earlier...If you want to get to 80-120wpm, it probably doesn't matter which layout you use...practice will get you there...if you want to get to the very fast speeds (160-180WPM) then a more efficient layout can only help you..

I think most people will not see a benefit of going over 100wpm...there are very few instances where this is necessary...unless that is your job (to type a lot)...
« Last Edit: Wed, 18 December 2019, 19:23:53 by Polymer »

Offline knightjp

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 176
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #95 on: Thu, 19 December 2019, 02:13:16 »
I do certainly want to get faster speeds. But WPM isn't my only goal. I am thinking about long term usage; having to use standard keyboards at work all the time. Prevention is better that cure. By that logic, Dvorak should be the way to go.
Having used Dvorak for the past couple of weeks, I do have to ask a question. Has anyone ever felt that QWERTY is more comfortable than Dvorak?
I do feel that for some movements, I find QWERTY much for free and comfortable; even if it is a little bit more effort.

Online yui

  • Posts: 253
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Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #96 on: Thu, 19 December 2019, 02:41:07 »

(https://xkcd.com/1787/)
(and go to XKCD it is funny and there is added mouseover text, you can even type is in dvorak if you wish)
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline treeleaf64

  • Posts: 387
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #97 on: Thu, 19 December 2019, 12:46:43 »
I just started using Workman, and I went from 7 wpm to 35 in just one day. I just want to reach above 160 wpm to be honest, and I couldn't do that with QWERTY

Offline rxc92

  • Posts: 415
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #98 on: Thu, 19 December 2019, 15:32:10 »
I do certainly want to get faster speeds. But WPM isn't my only goal. I am thinking about long term usage; having to use standard keyboards at work all the time. Prevention is better that cure. By that logic, Dvorak should be the way to go.
Having used Dvorak for the past couple of weeks, I do have to ask a question. Has anyone ever felt that QWERTY is more comfortable than Dvorak?
I do feel that for some movements, I find QWERTY much for free and comfortable; even if it is a little bit more effort.
 
 
Look, this thread has been out for 6 months and you still apparently haven't made a decision and are waffling back and forth asking for reasons to not do something. If you're really so dead set about not changing, then just don't. Nobody really cares what you do, and seeing you refresh the thread saying the same thing every two weeks is annoying and pointless.

Offline treeleaf64

  • Posts: 387
Re: Thinking about Dvorak
« Reply #99 on: Thu, 19 December 2019, 19:14:40 »
I agree with rxc, and I think you should switch to Dvorak already.