KBD75 | hotswappable | ISO [First keyboard, need some guidance]

[Adelscott]

Hi !
I'm looking to build my first KB.
The form factor I want is 75% so I was thinking about using a KBD75 rev2 but I want it to be hotswappable.

At the moment my references are

Some threads on reddit :
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/76lwlp/finally_finished_my_hotswappable_kbd75_with/
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/bmw07t/is_there_a_75_hotswappable_pcb/
where some folks did this using Mill-Max pins that seems better than Holtite

A youtube video showing how to fix those pins with a soldering iron but without soldering

It does not seem too hard, I think I can do it despite my total inexperience. Anyway, you have to get started in one way or another 

My concerns are more about making an ISO-FR layout buying a KBD75v2 custom keyboard DIY kit.  The PCB product page says it supports ISO. I wonder if I have to solder / fix something else than the Mill-Max pins ?


Any idea is welcome, I'll take all the help and love I can get !

[RETURNISO]

Hey!

The PCB is fine and supports ISO.

Depending if you are using Mill-Max sockets or holtites, you would need so solder in the holtites or socket firmly bc the ANSI & ISO hole positioning interference.
Imho, i would advise against making your first board hotswapple with the use of Mill-Max sockets or holtites.
Do not count on the sockets to have a perfect fit in the PCB and be cautious for switches just falling out when you are changing key-caps etc

You would be better off using the socket money on a extra PCB and just solder everything nicely in.

[Adelscott]

Thanks !

So there's no bridging or resistance soldering to do ? I just have to put the keyswitches in the right ISO holes ?

For hotswappability it's because I have not decided yet what switches to use (my only experience is MX Speed on my Corsair keyboard). I think I want something with a nice clicky sound but if I do not get used to it I would like to be able to change easily afterwards.

Found a video where longer Mill-Max are used, allowing to solder them from behind. This may be the best of two worlds ?

[Findecanor]

TL;DR: Holtites don't fit.

Original message:
According to entries on the DT Wiki, Holtites should fit in the V1 but not in the V2. The V2 should have different holes on the function-key row. You can see that that the latter is the case by looking closely in pictures on KBDfans' shop.

Edit:
I'm not sure about V1 working with Holtites.
In this image of what is supposedly revision 1 with mini-USB, the function keys' holes are bigger than the rest here as well.
Edit 2: This black PCB looks fine though...  What's up?
Edit 3: this video of PCB with mini-USB shows different-sized switch holes.

[RETURNISO]

Thanks !

So there's no bridging or resistance soldering to do ? I just have to put the keyswitches in the right ISO holes ?

For hotswappability it's because I have not decided yet what switches to use (my only experience is MX Speed on my Corsair keyboard). I think I want something with a nice clicky sound but if I do not get used to it I would like to be able to change easily afterwards.

Found a video where longer Mill-Max are used, allowing to solder them from behind. This may be the best of two worlds ?

You should look into a 60% layout. A few more options for PCB´s with kalih sockets which are the best of the hotswap solution on the market.
Though a 60% ISO PCB with Kalih hotswap sockets only exits on 1 PCB atm. This one

[nevin]

Don't forget most cherry/gateron switch parts are interchangeable (4 tabs). (cherry/gateron not compatible with box or outemu like switch housings 2 long tabs). So, if you solder in your switches you can change out the stem/spring or even top housing without desoldering as long as the switches are PCB mounted or mounted in a plate that supports switchtop removal. So you could easily go from Cherry blue (clicky) to a tactile stem or even a linear stem. Most stems should work (obviously Box stems would not work in Cherry housings). You could also do the same with the Box switches but PCB MOUNT ONLY because you can't do switchop removal on any Box or outemu while in plate because of the two long tabs vs. cherry/gaterons 4 small tabs.

[Adelscott]

TL;DR: Holtites don't fit.

Original message:
According to entries on the DT Wiki, Holtites should fit in the V1 but not in the V2. The V2 should have different holes on the function-key row. You can see that that the latter is the case by looking closely in pictures on KBDfans' shop.

Edit:
I'm not sure about V1 working with Holtites.
In this image of what is supposedly revision 1 with mini-USB, the function keys' holes are bigger than the rest here as well.
Edit 2: This black PCB looks fine though...  What's up?
Edit 3: this video of PCB with mini-USB shows different-sized switch holes.

Thanks for the Wiki link ! Most of the posts I've read say that Mill-Max pins are better. I'll see what I can get most easily here from France.

Don't forget most cherry/gateron switch parts are interchangeable (4 tabs). (cherry/gateron not compatible with box or outemu like switch housings 2 long tabs). So, if you solder in your switches you can change out the stem/spring or even top housing without desoldering as long as the switches are PCB mounted or mounted in a plate that supports switchtop removal. So you could easily go from Cherry blue (clicky) to a tactile stem or even a linear stem. Most stems should work (obviously Box stems would not work in Cherry housings). You could also do the same with the Box switches but PCB MOUNT ONLY because you can't do switchop removal on any Box or outemu while in plate because of the two long tabs vs. cherry/gaterons 4 small tabs.

Thanks ! I see how to open easily a switch (lubing seems to be a thing) but is it easy when soldered to a pcb ?

Thanks !

So there's no bridging or resistance soldering to do ? I just have to put the keyswitches in the right ISO holes ?

For hotswappability it's because I have not decided yet what switches to use (my only experience is MX Speed on my Corsair keyboard). I think I want something with a nice clicky sound but if I do not get used to it I would like to be able to change easily afterwards.

Found a video where longer Mill-Max are used, allowing to solder them from behind. This may be the best of two worlds ?

You should look into a 60% layout. A few more options for PCB´s with kalih sockets which are the best of the hotswap solution on the market.
Though a 60% ISO PCB with Kalih hotswap sockets only exits on 1 PCB atm. This one

This one was in my shortlist when I was still wondering about form factor. But I really don't think I'm ready to go from full size to 60% in one step 

[nevin]

Thanks ! I see how to open easily a switch (lubing seems to be a thing) but is it easy when soldered to a pcb ?

Yes. as long as they are of the cherry/gateron style housing and are either in a plate that supports switchtop opening or PCB mounted without a plate.

Quick video by keychatter on opening a switch when in keyboard.

This one was in my shortlist when I was still wondering about form factor. But I really don't think I'm ready to go from full size to 60% in one step 

Don't be scared to go to 60% the function layers are really easy to get used to and you will like the smaller form factor and how it allows you to put your mouse closer. if you use a number pad a lot or are more proficient on a number pad get a separate number pad and put it on the other side of your mouse. that's what i did when i first moved to the 60% form factor. So like this.... [keyboard] mouse [number pad] or reverse it if you're a lefty.

All of your F-keys are there as well as arrows, home, page up/dn, etc... they are just triggered by holding Fn then the key (see yellow highlights in typical Poker layout below)

If your board is programmable, you can make the layers whatever you want. (personally, i keep my arrows in the bottom right as dedicated keys)

[Adelscott]

Thanks ! I see how to open easily a switch (lubing seems to be a thing) but is it easy when soldered to a pcb ?

Yes. as long as they are of the cherry/gateron style housing and are either in a plate that supports switchtop opening or PCB mounted without a plate.

Quick video by keychatter on opening a switch when in keyboard.

This one was in my shortlist when I was still wondering about form factor. But I really don't think I'm ready to go from full size to 60% in one step 

Don't be scared to go to 60% the function layers are really easy to get used to and you will like the smaller form factor and how it allows you to put your mouse closer. if you use a number pad a lot or are more proficient on a number pad get a separate number pad and put it on the other side of your mouse. that's what i did when i first moved to the 60% form factor. So like this.... [keyboard] mouse [number pad] or reverse it if you're a lefty.

All of your F-keys are there as well as arrows, home, page up/dn, etc... they are just triggered by holding Fn then the key (see yellow highlights in typical Poker layout below)
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ]
If your board is programmable, you can make the layers whatever you want. (personally, i keep my arrows in the bottom right as dedicated keys)

Finally I preordered a HS60 V3 
I think it will it work with a KBDFans Tofu case, am I right ?
For the plate, this one will work ?

[nevin]

i can't comment if any of those parts fit together well as i don't have any of them. although, the 60% form factor has become pretty standard, with standard-ish mounting points. do some searching and see if anyone else has put together this combination.

usually only one mounts to the case. (pcb OR plate)
- if you're using a plate, usually, the pcb is suspended under the plate by the switches and the plate screws into the case. the holes in the pcb are usually larger to go AROUND the posts (not sit on top of them)
- if you're just using a pcb, usually that just mounts to the case at the same points on TOP of the posts.

BUT, this is hot swappable. so suspending the plate would not work. on the GMMK the PCB is screwed to the plate, and the plate to the case. i have never messed with hot swap boards and they are rather new, so i'm not sure what's standard for these.

looking at the couple pictures of the components... best i can come up with is.... maybe spacers between the pcb and the plate the same height as what the switches make the distance to be. and using longer screws to go though the plate, spacer, pcb and then into the case.

(...some time passes....)

looks like i was wrong. here's a setup and the pcb is screwed into the case and the plate is floating above. look at the screws.

pulled from this video

...which really isn't ideal, but could work.

here's another one with hotswap that's built with the HHKB version of the TOFU case which has a built-in plate (plate part of the case) and the pcb screws into the top half of the case which is also the plate. (some prefer the sound of a standard setup over a built in plate)

[Adelscott]

Thanks for your time helping me !

Found this video, HS60 v2 + Tofu

The plate seems to "clip" onto the pcb ? Stabs maintaining it ? 

[nevin]

skimmed through the video... the click you hear was just a tight fitting stab. the plate was custom made. it's not the brass plate from kbdfans.

the plate is suspended above pcb by the switches. (basically just for added support/stability/alignment because the switches are in a hot swap pcb (instead of being soldered to the pcb). the pcb gets secured to the case with screws. from the couple videos, it looks like the components you mention (should) fit together. one thing that was not on your list of parts was stabs, so don't forget to get those too if you don't have them on hand.

the VIA configurator looks really nice. i've heard about it for a while now, but was nice to see it in action in the last video you linked. i'll have to look into it more, and see what all it's compatible with. hopefully it's compatible with some controllers for custom/split/hand-wired boards. (fingers crossed)

[Adelscott]

Watched some QMK videos/screenshots, VIA seems a lot easier !
I guess screw-in stabs are better than standards ? And it's better to lube ?
Right now I'm waiting for the Tofu color I want to be back on stock. Can't wait to begin.

[nevin]

the VIA configurator is just a dynamic front end for QMK. it's still QMK running on your keyboard. VIA support is hit & miss right now because it's so new. there is a QMK configurator that has both V1 & V2 (so far) of of the HS60.
https://config.qmk.fm/#/hs60/v2/LAYOUT_60_iso

stabs.... screw in stabs are more popular (and make more sense) if you're planning on changing your keycaps frequently. if not, the standard clip-in stabs are more than fine.

lubing stabs make them sound better, but it's not required.

start collecting parts and start watching the calendar for the pre-order to ship.