Author Topic: Dvorak?  (Read 14548 times)

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Offline Harry_Y

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Dvorak?
« on: Wed, 16 June 2010, 14:36:31 »
Does any one use Dvorak here.

If so what can you tell me about it?


I'm thinking about switching one of my keyboards around to try it

Offline Zalusithix

  • Posts: 165
Dvorak?
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 16 June 2010, 15:11:14 »
I use it with my Kinesis, but I'm not sure what you want to know about it. I mean, there's a ton of information out there on the layout, and a number of threads dealing with it here at GeekHack.

It's easy enough to try by just setting your keyboard settings in the OS. I'd highly recommend not switching your keyboard around for correct lettering. Memorization is easier if you can't cheat by glancing down. Be prepared to take a hit to your typing speed though. It'll take some time before you'll get to your current typing speed, and you might never actually get any faster. Speed aside, it is more comfortable over long typing sessions.

You might also want to look into Colemak and other alternate keyboard layouts.

Offline didjamatic

  • Posts: 1332
Dvorak?
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 16 June 2010, 15:51:50 »
Check out Colemak too, if I was to try another layout it would be that.  Less keys to memorize, supposedly more efficient.  Though there is more support out there for Dvorak.

Lots of info on this forum too.
IBM F :: IBM M :: Northgate :: Cherry G80 :: Realforce :: DAS 4

Offline Viett

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Dvorak?
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 16 June 2010, 15:56:47 »
Forget Dvorak, learn Colemak ;).

I would recommend you read my layouts review, where I discuss the pros and cons to alternative layouts.

Don't move your keys around, though. To learn a layout correctly, you should never look at the keys. Besides, moving the 'F' and 'J' means the dips that help you find home row will be in the wrong place.
Keyboards: FKBN87MC/NPEK, Dell AT101W (Black), IBM Model M 1391401 (91) x 2, Deck 82 Fire, Cherry MX8100 (Clears), Siig Minitouch
Layouts: Colemak (100WPM), QWERTY (100WPM) -- Alternative Layouts Review

Offline Zalusithix

  • Posts: 165
Dvorak?
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 16 June 2010, 16:33:32 »
The downside to Colemak would be the fact that you wont be able to easily change a Windows system to support it. It's not too much of a problem for home systems, but for school systems or other public terminals running Windows, you wont be able to switch to Colemak.

Offline chimera15

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Dvorak?
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 16 June 2010, 17:09:57 »
I tried to use it.  I got up to about 30 wpm then gave up since I normally type around 90wpm average in qwerty. There are little programs that will switch the layout around on dvorak.com I believe, as well as just the normal keyboard you can add in the language settings of windows.

 I was doing a typing test on typeracer lately that had a quote in it from a book about keyboards and ergonomics and it called the fact that dvorak was more effecient a myth, and that tests showed that it's no faster or better.  Pretty interesting.

Some of the key combinations I just couldn't get used to, it didn't make sense to me.  The ergonomics of it just isn't there.  There's a certain ergnomic justification to the qwerty layout in reality.

Besides I'm pretty sure that arenasnow uses qwerty and he can type like 220 wpm, and averages 170wpm so I know I have a long way to go mastering qwerty still.

Recently I hit 121 on typeracer, and reached bursts of 165 wpm, so I know I can at least approach the upper speeds using qwerty.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 June 2010, 17:20:51 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline Zalusithix

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Dvorak?
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 16 June 2010, 17:57:02 »
Quote from: chimera15;193775
There's a certain ergnomic justification to the qwerty layout in reality.
I'd love to see that justification. I fail to see any ergonomic design principles at all in the QWERTY layout. Just because you can get used to it, doesn't mean that it's ergonomic.

I mean, really... a semicolon on the home keys? Outside of programming, that has absolutely no business being there. QWERTY wasn't designed with programming in mind either, so it just goes to show how it wasn't designed with ergonomics or efficiency in mind.

Offline ecru

  • Posts: 73
Dvorak?
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 16 June 2010, 18:03:50 »
You may find this thread interesting.  My advice, and I haven't gone back :)

Offline chimera15

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Dvorak?
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 16 June 2010, 18:26:15 »
Quote from: Zalusithix;193796
I'd love to see that justification. I fail to see any ergonomic design principles at all in the QWERTY layout. Just because you can get used to it, doesn't mean that it's ergonomic.

I mean, really... a semicolon on the home keys? Outside of programming, that has absolutely no business being there. QWERTY wasn't designed with programming in mind either, so it just goes to show how it wasn't designed with ergonomics or efficiency in mind.

The ergonomic justification is that it moves your hands around the keyboard as you type, as opposed to just staying in one row mainly like with dvorak, which can be more comfortable at speed. I'll try to find the book or the passage and at least retype it here, it was pretty interesting.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 June 2010, 18:30:49 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline Zalusithix

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Dvorak?
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 16 June 2010, 18:58:11 »
In other words, ergonomics by virtue of being inefficient. Seems like quite a stretch to me. I can't see how moving your fingers *more* would be better than less. If that were the case, then chorded keyboards would be the least ergonomic choice out there since your hands and fingers don't move at all. Ditto to the Data Hand.

Offline Rusty Rat

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Dvorak?
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 17 June 2010, 01:12:59 »
I tried the Dvorak layout once because it was easy swapping caps on a Model M. Gave it away to a friend of mine who persevered for about 3 months. He gave up in the end claiming it was slower to type on. I have read elsewhere that any perceived gain on a Dvorak is lost when you factor in the time lost adjusting to it.

Offline DreymaR

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Dvorak?
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 17 June 2010, 02:43:44 »
Given how much you'll be typing in a lifetime, it'd take a lot of adjusting time to eat up any benefits. Maybe they're thinking of the time you use switching to your other layout when you come to a QWERTY keyboard? If so, it all depends a lot on whether you'll predominantly work on your own computer or on other peoples' computers. I do both.

Getting Colemak to work on a Windows system isn't hard at all if you can insert a flash drive into that computer. If you cannot, there may be solutions like what I'm doing at my work: Put a little executable on your home network area, and link to that so that it starts automatically when you log on to any given workplace computer. That way, Colemak autostarts as default whenever I log on to any computer at work.

But I don't recommend starting to use an alternative layout solely because you want to type faster easily. Layout switching, like the addiction to better keyboards, will cost you - but if you're among those who can enjoy the benefits it will be well worth it!
« Last Edit: Thu, 17 June 2010, 02:45:58 by DreymaR »
Better burden you cannot carry than man-wisdom much ~ Hávamál

Offline chimera15

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Dvorak?
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 17 June 2010, 03:25:21 »
Here's the book:

http://www.amazon.com/Famous-Fables-Economics-Market-Failures/dp/0631226753/ref=sr_1_1/184-1324461-5658458?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276763008&sr=1-1



It has a number of reasonable justifications for Qwerty that seem reasonable.

Actually that's not it, that one is another one that bases Qwerty being the superior layout because there were a lot of typing competitions in the early 1900's and also when computers came out, why it survived over other formats.
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline Harry_Y

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Dvorak?
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 17 June 2010, 07:58:16 »
Thank you all for the advice.

While Colemak actually looks a little better it
appears that Dvorak is more widely implemented.

So I may give Dvorak a try, I'm an odd typer to begin with. when I'm using
a good keyboard and the thoughts are flowing I am close to a touch typest
(just glancing ar the keyboard);
but when I'm struggling with an Idea I'm almost hunt and peck.

Ive been typing for over 30 years but I'm
nowhere close to where I would like to be.

Qwerty has always been a pir tough for me and it may be partially
because it is more left handed and I am extreemly right handed.

So it is more of an experiment to see if a different layout geared
to both hands may help me to actually be able to type better.

Again thank you to all.

Offline muchadoaboutnothing

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Dvorak?
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 17 June 2010, 09:44:22 »
Quote from: chimera15;193944
Actually that's not it, that one is another one that bases Qwerty being the superior layout because there were a lot of typing competitions in the early 1900's and also when computers came out, why it survived over other formats.

QWERTY was not designed with ergonomics in mind. It was designed to stop typewriter heads from getting stuck by not having keys you'd use together (th being a common combo) next to each other. This greatly reduced the jamming of the heads, which was a problem at higher typing speeds.This made it popular for typing at high speed.

In a day and age where there are no heads, QWERTY is an inefficient layout.

Now, the benefits of learning another layout are debatable. Doing a lot of home row typing is nice, but learning COLEMAK is taking a lot out of me. I'm not getting worse at QWERTY, but it is SLOW. I still don't have the COLEMAK layout memorized.

If it's more ergonomic to type on, I think it's worth the time. Any benefit in speed (if I do gain it) would be gravy.

Offline randku

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Dvorak?
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 17 June 2010, 12:57:22 »
I started out typing on QWERTY, I capped out at around 65 WPM and would get horrible pains in my wrists and hands from typing at that speed, so I would slow down.

I decided to switch to dvorak, mostly because it was the only layout I found when researching alternative ones.

There was a period of about a week where I was straining to get out 10wpm, but I got back up to speed within a month, and was up to around 80 WPM within about three months. The pain in my hands was completely gone. Dvorak is a lot more 'comfortable' to use than qwerty, probably because of the reduced finger travel.

I now type at around 100WPM, and I've been using DVORAK for about five years. It has never occurred to me to switch back, because Dvorak is just so much more efficient than qwerty. I've never had any pains in my hands again, even after hours of typing.

I can still type in qwerty, but it's only around 60wpm, and it's just not as pleasant to type in as dvorak. I feel like I'm reaching all over the place whenever I type in qwerty.

Also, Dvorak favors the right hand when typing, so it's good for righties. (it shifts 8-9% of the workload to the right hand over the left one.)

Any questions? Hope I helped.

Offline Harry_Y

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Dvorak?
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 17 June 2010, 14:57:30 »
Quote from: randku;194011
I started out typing on QWERTY, I capped out at around 65 WPM and would get horrible pains in my wrists and hands from typing at that speed, so I would slow down.

I decided to switch to dvorak, mostly because it was the only layout I found when researching alternative ones.

There was a period of about a week where I was straining to get out 10wpm, but I got back up to speed within a month, and was up to around 80 WPM within about three months. The pain in my hands was completely gone. Dvorak is a lot more 'comfortable' to use than qwerty, probably because of the reduced finger travel.

I now type at around 100WPM, and I've been using DVORAK for about five years. It has never occurred to me to switch back, because Dvorak is just so much more efficient than qwerty. I've never had any pains in my hands again, even after hours of typing.

I can still type in qwerty, but it's only around 60wpm, and it's just not as pleasant to type in as dvorak. I feel like I'm reaching all over the place whenever I type in qwerty.

Also, Dvorak favors the right hand when typing, so it's good for righties. (it shifts 8-9% of the workload to the right hand over the left one.)

Any questions? Hope I helped.




That may make it the one for me

I have two of the SIIG MiniTouches (one is my spare) I think
I'll switch one over to dvorak and leave the other qwerty.

Then I can give dvorak an honest try.

My left hand hurts right now after a day of typing.

Offline chimera15

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Dvorak?
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 17 June 2010, 15:14:15 »
Quote from: Harry_Y;194020
That may make it the one for me

I have two of the SIIG MiniTouches (one is my spare) I think
I'll switch one over to dvorak and leave the other qwerty.

Then I can give dvorak an honest try.

My left hand hurts right now after a day of typing.


It's the keyboard, not the layout.  Those keyboards make your hands hurt.  I'm glad I'm not the only one that experienced that. lol
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline Viett

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Dvorak?
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 17 June 2010, 15:52:21 »
I would like to stress three things to the OP that I think are very important:

  • Learn how to touch type before learning any alternative layout.
  • Learn Colemak, not Dvorak
  • Do not rearrange your keyboard


I think it's very important to learn how to touch type before learning any alternative layout. Learn to type the correct letters (QWERTY) using the correct fingers using a finger map.



For all we know, this may solve your comfort issues alone. If you are not satisfied, your time is not wasted, knowing how to touch type on QWERTY will save you the time of learning finger positions and keys when learning an alternative layout. Also, it's unrealistic to use an alternative layout all the time -- especially Dvorak. There are times when you will need to use hotkeys made with QWERTY in mind, and you will not always have access to your alternative layout.

Also, learn Colemak, not Dvorak. I'm not going to restate all of my arguments here, but they are all laid out in my review. You do bring up a good point by stating that Colemak is not always available, but if you are able to run an executable on a Windows machine, you can use Colemak Portable. There are also many options for Macs, and of course, Linux has Colemak built-in.

Lastly, as I said earlier in this thread, rearranging your keyboard is a bad idea. Your F and J need to be in the correct spots to help you find home row and you should not be looking at your keyboard anyway. If you need to look at the layout, bring up an image on your screen or use a printout and post it near your monitor. You should be translating position into finger-movement. If you look down, you will translate the key's location by sight into a press, which will not help you learn to type.
Keyboards: FKBN87MC/NPEK, Dell AT101W (Black), IBM Model M 1391401 (91) x 2, Deck 82 Fire, Cherry MX8100 (Clears), Siig Minitouch
Layouts: Colemak (100WPM), QWERTY (100WPM) -- Alternative Layouts Review

Offline Harry_Y

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Dvorak?
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 17 June 2010, 19:50:14 »
Quote from: chimera15;194023
It's the keyboard, not the layout.  Those keyboards make your hands hurt.  I'm glad I'm not the only one that experienced that. lol


No that was my work keyboard,  I'm on the Siig now and this is far better.

I would take one to work but they would probably lynch me.

So i did take an old keyboard and for the fun of it I moved the key caps around
into Dvorak, I Could feel the difference in finger travel and I was surprised I
started to figure out where the keys were fairly quick thought slow it did have a nice feel.

I'm not sure I'll switch since all the machines I work on are QWERTY so ?????

But it was an interesting  experiment non the less.


I may sit down the is weekend when my head is a lil clearer
and give it a days worth of use and see what I think.

Offline thegnu

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Dvorak?
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 17 June 2010, 21:06:26 »
Quote
I'm not sure I'll switch since all the machines I work on are QWERTY so ?????


this is exactly why i quit using dvorak.  i was working as a computer tech, and while i found dvorak to be comfortable enough, just as i started to approach a decent speed with it, i started being unable to type on a normal keyboard.

it's a bummer that qwerty is the main kb layout, but really, if you use multiple computers that other people use, you are probably causing a net inefficiency in the world either by forcing a bunch of muggles to use dvorak, or by having to switch your brain back and forth.

just my 2 cents.

Offline Harry_Y

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Dvorak?
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 17 June 2010, 21:36:12 »
I actually was surprised in just a few minutes I
was starting to remember where the  keys were.

I also work with computers all day (networking guy)

Offline Zalusithix

  • Posts: 165
Dvorak?
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 17 June 2010, 21:45:14 »
Personally, I have little problem with going between Dvorak and QWERTY. I'll sputter a long after a flip for a couple minutes while I regain my muscle memory, but after that, it's business as usual. Of course the fact that I only use Dvorak on my Kinesis, and QWERTY everywhere else might have something to do with that. The muscle memory is different enough for me that they don't interfere too much with eachother.

Also, I properly touch type on Dvorak, whereas I use my own improvised method that I developed over the years on QWERTY. This helps me keep them separate as my hand and finger motions are just way too different to get them confused. The fact that there's only two letters overlapping between Dvorak and QWERTY solidifies this even more.

I'll admit that my QWERTY speed has dropped a bit since I've used the Kinesis, but I'm not sure how much of that is due to it being QWERTY, and how much of it is due to the keyboard layout itself not being a split matrix formation.

And on a side note, I can type Dvorak on a standard keyboard, but it just feels strange due to the offset rows. Or rather, proper touch typing in general feels strange on a standard keyboard to me.

Offline Harry_Y

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Dvorak?
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 17 June 2010, 21:55:13 »
I really need to spend more time with it.

I wish i could move the key caps around (and have them fit right)
on my SIIG Mini touch then I would be all set,

Especially if I plan to keep it switched to Dvorak.

Out of all the keyboards I have here only a couple of old Compaq rubber dome
keyboards have the keys the same size and shape so i can switch them around
and then even on those the F&J cant be moved the way they made them.

I know It should not matter but I'm picky and like things to line up right.

Offline Zalusithix

  • Posts: 165
Dvorak?
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 17 June 2010, 22:05:58 »
For learning purposes, it really makes no difference. Well, as stated before, it's actually more beneficial to not have them correct.

I'd save the key moving for when you're actually proficient at the layout, or at least committed to it. Outside of a real Dvorak set of keycaps, you'll never have a perfect labeling anyhow due to the notches in the F and J keys.

Offline Harry_Y

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Dvorak?
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 17 June 2010, 22:10:15 »
Yes if I really fall in love with it I will probably
at that point splurge on a something nice.

Offline Rajagra

  • Posts: 1931
Dvorak?
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 17 June 2010, 22:55:16 »
I feel the same way about things having to be done right. But I went ahead and moved the keycaps on one of my boards to the Colemak layout despite it causing uneven rows. The funny thing is, it didn't feel to bad or affect my speed. It was just an alternative way of finding the home location to the usual F/J being different.

Offline hoggy

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Dvorak?
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 18 June 2010, 00:54:45 »
I found the difference in comfort between qwerty and dvorak really quite noticeable.  I'm still adjusting to dvorak (still can't type as fast as before) a few months later and I can't touch type on qwerty at all now, but I wouldn't swap back.
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Offline British

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Dvorak?
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 18 June 2010, 02:18:14 »
Quote from: Zalusithix;193796
I mean, really... a semicolon on the home keys? Outside of programming, that has absolutely no business being there.

Funny thing, on ISO that key is "M"... makes much more sense, heh ? :wink:
Of course, that's not taking into account that the enter key is faaaar.

Offline hyperlinked

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Dvorak?
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 18 June 2010, 02:27:00 »
I would probably also try a variety of keyboards before trying an alternative layout. Most of my hand problems have been addressed by the Cherry Brown Filco cure. When I got this keyboard, I was switching between voice recognition and a neverending cast of new and old rubber dome keyboards in order to be able to keep typing.

I was using ALPS based keyboards for years before my hands started to bother me. When my last ALPS board ran out of donor switches, I started buying rubber domes and I started my own business around the same time so I was working a lot of hours and using crappy equipment. My hands eventually paid the price.

I was severely bummed when I didn't have enough switches left in my last ALPS board to keep the keyboard alive. The funny thing is that I didn't know what an ALPS switch was back then and yet I was hanging out occasionally at a park in front of ALPS Electric USA. LOL, I probably could have gone in and begged someone for a few switches.
« Last Edit: Fri, 18 June 2010, 02:32:00 by hyperlinked »
-

Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
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Offline DreymaR

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Dvorak?
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 18 June 2010, 02:29:07 »
I disagree with that fingering scheme above - the row stagger makes it very hard on your left wrist. As mentioned before, use an ISO board and do this:



Bunch of problems solved, at minor cost. If you wish, you can do it with QWERTY too and the benefit will be quite tangible.
Better burden you cannot carry than man-wisdom much ~ Hávamál

Offline randku

  • Posts: 14
Dvorak?
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 18 June 2010, 06:05:57 »
Quote from: thegnu;194078
this is exactly why i quit using dvorak.  i was working as a computer tech, and while i found dvorak to be comfortable enough, just as i started to approach a decent speed with it, i started being unable to type on a normal keyboard.

it's a bummer that qwerty is the main kb layout, but really, if you use multiple computers that other people use, you are probably causing a net inefficiency in the world either by forcing a bunch of muggles to use dvorak, or by having to switch your brain back and forth.

just my 2 cents.

I can still type in qwerty, and it only took me about a month to re-gain my speed, after not using it at all for months.
The only thing is, I prefer not to use qwerty after using dvorak for so long. All the movement in qwerty is just wasteful, and I'm acutely aware of it with every key press.

EDIT: Carrying around something like Portable Keyboard Layout (made for colemak, but it has a dvorak profile) on a flash drive isn't too hard, and it only takes a couple seconds to run, assuming you're working on windows machines.
« Last Edit: Fri, 18 June 2010, 06:08:05 by randku »

Offline oldarney

  • Posts: 11
Dvorak?
« Reply #32 on: Fri, 18 June 2010, 07:21:33 »
Being by lingual isn't too hard either. On the other hand, switching layouts constantly will make your speed suffer. At least that was my experience, and still is. Good luck finding a phone with switchable keys... large android touchscreens arent bad though.

I use a custom layout, I have spent tons of hours building layouts for mac, windows and linux. And also learning how to install them on those operating systems. The truth is its more ergonomic and POSSIBLY, faster. Its really hard to concentrate though. For the ergonomics of it, I think its worth it. I have never had muscle fatigue of any sort on dvorak layouts, while I do get somewhat strained when doing essays on laptops.

You could get a dvorak keyboard, or a keyboard that has Dvorak to querty conversion built in. As for the home row, I think thats just a learning thing, I imagine most people got tutored to use those nipples... all it takes is a small glance to position your self, once thats done its all speeding. Its not hard to position your self by the enter and the caps button. I just did anyways.

Offline muchadoaboutnothing

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Dvorak?
« Reply #33 on: Fri, 18 June 2010, 07:25:05 »
Quote from: oldarney;194233
You could get a dvorak keyboard, or a keyboard that has Dvorak to querty conversion built in. As for the home row, I think thats just a learning thing, I imagine most people got tutored to use those nipples... all it takes is a small glance to position your self, once thats done its all speeding. Its not hard to position your self by the enter and the caps button. I just did anyways.


I never learned home row typing, but I do 80-100WPM (when I'm booking it, I can hit 120, but under realistic extended typing, ~80 is realistically sustainable) without looking at the keyboard.

I'm trying to learn the home row with COLEMAK, which should be beneficial given its greater use of letters on that row.

Old habits die hard though. Just keeping my hands on the now is weird, and the nubs on the Filco aren't big enough in my opinion (sometimes I can't find them).

Offline oldarney

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Dvorak?
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 18 June 2010, 07:41:37 »
Quote from: muchadoaboutnothing;194236
I never learned home row typing, but I do 80-100WPM (when I'm booking it, I can hit 120, but under realistic extended typing, ~80 is realistically sustainable) without looking at the keyboard.

I'm trying to learn the home row with COLEMAK, which should be beneficial given its greater use of letters on that row.

Old habits die hard though. Just keeping my hands on the now is weird, and the nubs on the Filco aren't big enough in my opinion (sometimes I can't find them).




Why not just use one of those. meh. I learned my layout by looking down, it was just tooooo unbearable to learn a new layout and not be able to do anything on my keyboard until i did something on it. I mean learn something on it.

Id advise against switching layouts every day. My speed fluxes about 30 to 40 wpm when I am constantly flipping layouts. When I sit down on my comp alone due to vacation my wpm skyrockets, which i love. Flipping layouts is easy, but not very benneficial to speed. But do we really need the speed. Like I said before, there ergonomics are reason enough.

OOOh, I was a technical director at a tv station, the board only had one row that we used. Meaning there was little motion, and little fatigue, that totally blows the claims of the dude in the first post about keeping in the home row being bad.

Offline muchadoaboutnothing

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Dvorak?
« Reply #35 on: Fri, 18 June 2010, 07:51:24 »
Quote from: oldarney;194242
(image of a tenkeyless, hotlinking isn't nice)

Why not just use one of those. meh. I learned my layout by looking down, it was just tooooo unbearable to learn a new layout and not be able to do anything on my keyboard until i did something on it. I mean learn something on it.


I do have a Majestouch Tactile Touch Otaku NKRO (not the Tenkeyless)

Quote from: oldarney;194242
Id advise against switching layouts every day. My speed fluxes about 30 to 40 wpm when I am constantly flipping layouts. When I sit down on my comp alone due to vacation my wpm skyrockets, which i love. Flipping layouts is easy, but not very benneficial to speed. But do we really need the speed. Like I said before, there ergonomics are reason enough.


Maybe that's why I'm having trouble. I think the bigger problem isn't every day as much as several times day (QWERTY at work, COLEMAK at home until I learn it). I'm switching between the layouts for when I want to make posts online and such.

Maybe I should just print a blank layout sheet and memorize the layout over and over again until I can remember the position of every key. Because having it in front of me while using TypeFaster seems to be giving me an easy way out.

Granted, TypeFaster is critical for me learning home row typing (seeing which finger to move up/down from the home row).

Even weirder for me is using R-SHIFT. I never use it while typing QWERTY.

Quote from: oldarney;194242
OOOh, I was a technical director at a tv station, the board only had one row that we used. Meaning there was little motion, and little fatigue, that totally blows the claims of the dude in the first post about keeping in the home row being bad.

Yeah, that doesn't make sense. Finger travel = fatigue. More you're on the home row, less fatigue.

Offline itlnstln

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Dvorak?
« Reply #36 on: Fri, 18 June 2010, 09:56:58 »
I think the biggest advantage for any "alternative" layout is having the hands alternate more key presses (this would be more of a speed advantage than a fatigue one).  I also think staying closer to the home row would lower fatigue myself.


Offline chimera15

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Dvorak?
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 22 June 2010, 20:41:51 »
oops
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline DreymaR

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Dvorak?
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 23 June 2010, 06:46:38 »
itlnstln: Dvorak focuses more on alternation, Colemak more on rolling. Both are fast, both are comfortable. Whether one or the other is inherently better remains to be seen I think.

I know that the fastest mock typing I've achieved (2000 cpm, iirc?) has been done using rolls. For what that's worth.
Better burden you cannot carry than man-wisdom much ~ Hávamál

Offline Coolzrock

  • Posts: 4
Dvorak?
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 23 June 2010, 14:13:46 »
It's a good alternative, but just an alternative. I don't like dvorak, or colemak, not because they are bad, because all standard keyboards are QWERTY right now and I'm used to type on a QWERTY based keyboard.
Keyboard:
IBM Model M 11391401 from 1988 on PS/2.

Notice:
Only some number caps (4 and 6) are missing (and F10), but i don\'t really use them. I use the right numbers, so it\'s all okay.

Offline chimera15

  • Posts: 1441
Dvorak?
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 04:54:59 »
Finally found it:  

"The evidence in the standard history of the Qwerty versus Dvorak is flawed and incomplete. First, the claims for the superiority of the Dvorak keyboard are suspect. The most dramatic claims are traceable to Dvorak himself, and the best-documented experiments, as well as recent ergonomic studies, suggest little or no advantage for the Dvorak keyboard."

http://www.amazon.com/Famous-Fables-Economics-Market-Failures/dp/0631226753/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277459620&sr=1-1
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline DreymaR

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Dvorak?
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 07:53:40 »
Yeah, yeah. Whether you subscribe to the 'fable of the keys', the 'fable of the fable of the keys' or another version entirely is a matter of how long it took you to google the eternal flame war of the keys.

*wants to post his star wars scroll image yet again*
Better burden you cannot carry than man-wisdom much ~ Hávamál

Offline spremino

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Dvorak?
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 28 June 2010, 14:57:26 »
Dvorak user here. Very satisfied.

Yes, switching has been hard, mainly because I didn't really learn touch-typing before, thus I have had to put real effort while learning. I also made the big mistake of learning while having to get things done, instead of profiting from an idle timespan.

To me, the main gain is that the smooth flow of fingers while typing does not break my flow of thought.

I considered Colemak too, but it seems to require somewhat awkward finger rolls, especially in my native language (Italian), albeit this could be just a perception of mine as a beginner, since there are enthusiast Colemak users out there.
A long space bar... what a waste of space!

Offline Specter_57

  • Posts: 143
Inline hardware converter QWERTY to DVorak
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 28 June 2010, 18:24:38 »
.

Take a look at this link:

http://dvorak-keyboard.net63.net/

An ATmega inline hardware QWERTY to DVorak converter....but of course the firmware could be modified to Colmak if need be...and the "inline" part could be inside the keyboard case itself.

Maybe of some interest to the thread readers....


............
Spec_57
« Last Edit: Mon, 28 June 2010, 21:21:05 by Specter_57 »

Offline Input Nirvana

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Dvorak?
« Reply #44 on: Mon, 28 June 2010, 18:47:10 »
Interesting.
Does someone have an idea of what the unit would cost?
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline randku

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Dvorak?
« Reply #45 on: Mon, 28 June 2010, 19:32:10 »
Quote from: input nirvana;197398
Interesting.
Does someone have an idea of what the unit would cost?


The chip is around $4, the cables and project box could probably be had for $15-20. You'd still need a way to program the chip though.

Offline Input Nirvana

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Dvorak?
« Reply #46 on: Mon, 28 June 2010, 19:41:17 »
About $25 materials. Ok, next item. Without sounding like a dork, if I wanted this to convert my Kinesis Contoured project into a hardware alternative keyboard, would I be able to pay someone to program it?
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline DreymaR

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Dvorak?
« Reply #47 on: Tue, 29 June 2010, 05:45:14 »
You guys REALLY need to use a little forum search magic...
Better burden you cannot carry than man-wisdom much ~ Hávamál

Offline Rentz

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Dvorak?
« Reply #48 on: Wed, 07 July 2010, 08:34:20 »
Quote from: oldarney;194233
Good luck finding a phone with switchable keys... large android touchscreens arent bad though.
I use Dvorak on my Iphone...

Offline Input Nirvana

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Dvorak?
« Reply #49 on: Fri, 09 July 2010, 21:42:38 »
Quote from: Rentz;200227
I use Dvorak on my Iphone...


Did you jailbreak your iPhone? Which iPhone model do you use?
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline spremino

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Dvorak?
« Reply #50 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 04:29:27 »
Quote from: DreymaR;194168
I disagree with that fingering scheme above - the row stagger makes it very hard on your left wrist. As mentioned before, use an ISO board and do this:

Show Image


Bunch of problems solved, at minor cost. If you wish, you can do it with QWERTY too and the benefit will be quite tangible.


I agree. Same mod here.
A long space bar... what a waste of space!