Garbage power supply

[muchadoaboutnothing]

I've heard of Bestec (Friend's HP) but I haven't heard of Bestect.

I buy Corsair in my new PCS (SeaSonic rebrands, if I recall correctly). I scored both for pretty cheap on sales (relatively. You don't skimp on a PSU).

I also have a ThermalTake that is probably a cheap rebrand but has been doing well, and an Antec TruePower that's a few years old that's also been chugging along.

I need a break after being victim of the capacitor plague that destroyed everything in one of my PCs. Then again, saying "everything is working fine" ALWAYS seems to bring on trouble.

*knocks on wood*

[gr1m]

Typo, I meant Bestec.

[muchadoaboutnothing]

Typo, I meant Bestec.

Yeah, that's REALLY bargain bin stuff right there. I remember because my friend had to replace his PSU after he put real load on it (6800GS when he previously used integrated).

[EverythingIBM]

Besides, cheap power supplies don't have to explode. They can do other subtler things like kill your hardware (a motherboard and a stick of RAM were the victims of a 250W Bestec HP PSU).

So cheap PSUs can spike the voltage and send incorrect amounts of power; thus destroying the hardware?

I've heard of Bestec (Friend's HP) but I haven't heard of Bestect.

I buy Corsair in my new PCS (SeaSonic rebrands, if I recall correctly). I scored both for pretty cheap on sales (relatively. You don't skimp on a PSU).

I also have a ThermalTake that is probably a cheap rebrand but has been doing well, and an Antec TruePower that's a few years old that's also been chugging along.

I need a break after being victim of the capacitor plague that destroyed everything in one of my PCs. Then again, saying "everything is working fine" ALWAYS seems to bring on trouble.

*knocks on wood*

I thought if a computer gets a broken capacitor, it just gives a silly message in the BIOS, rather than destroying the whole computer.

[kriminal]

im running a ABS tagan 800watt PSU for almost 2 years now with no issues..
guess i'll get a corsiar on my next build seeing as pc p and c got bought over...

[gr1m]

So cheap PSUs can spike the voltage and send incorrect amounts of power; thus destroying the hardware?

Yes, that's exactly what I imagine happened. My 7950GT was probably too much for the power supply, and so operating above the pathetic levels that cheap power supplies can operate at, it delivered inconsistent power and killed components.

[didjamatic]

It's only worked because you haven't run anything intensive on it.

I use Solidworks which is pretty intensive.  It's actually the reason I finally upgraded my 1999 440BX PII system in 2007 because there is no way on earth it would run Solidworks.  But I mostly surf the internet, and use it as a file server.

I hope to get 8 years longevity out of my current system too.  Excluding PSU, fans and drives of course.  Movable parts all fail eventually.

[Phaedrus2129]

When I built my current system I had a PSU fail.  When I got a replacement I ended up with a half aluminum, half clear acrylic LED infused PSU that has a knob on the back to adjust the fan, I liked that feature but the flo-green switch and neon blue were things I just accepted.  I'm not a gamer and typically try to stick to server-class hardware built for stability and longevity but in this case I went with the bling-bling neon disco-of-the-future affair.

Found the model, it's made by Apevia.  I don't know how good this PSU is, but it's worked well for over 2 years and I run a lot of drives and devices off of my system and I like the wrapped cables.

Show Image

It's a piece of garbage. HardwareSecrets tested one straight from the OEM and it tested out at 150W before going kaboom. Apevia might have paid more for upgraded parts, but it's still a crappy design.

Yeah, that's REALLY bargain bin stuff right there. I remember because my friend had to replace his PSU after he put real load on it (6800GS when he previously used integrated).

Bestec aren't *that* bad. They just had one model where the +5VSB's voltage would get higher the lower the load; so while your computer is off the +5VSB is running at 6.5V, killing your motherboard over time.

So cheap PSUs can spike the voltage and send incorrect amounts of power; thus destroying the hardware?

It's a bit more complicated than that; but yes, there are dozens of ways that a power supply can damage or destroy your computer.

I thought if a computer gets a broken capacitor, it just gives a silly message in the BIOS, rather than destroying the whole computer.

How can it tell the capacitor is broken? Your car doesn't know when you have a flat tire, or a cracked windshield. No, capacitor failure either causes the computer to stop working, or simply causes increased noise on that line, which can damage components.


Here's an article I did on ripple/noise, you might find it informative:
http://hardwareaware.com/article/20/

[EverythingIBM]

I use Solidworks which is pretty intensive.  It's actually the reason I finally upgraded my 1999 440BX PII system in 2007 because there is no way on earth it would run Solidworks.  But I mostly surf the internet, and use it as a file server.

I hope to get 8 years longevity out of my current system too.  Excluding PSU, fans and drives of course.  Movable parts all fail eventually.

If you have the thing on 24/7 you probably will need to replace the fans in 8 years; but I have some computers with some pretty ancient fans... you'd want fans with bearings instead of sleeves if you want longevity.

[kishy]

LOL BESTEC.

I did a co-op and some volunteer work for a local charity. Their office was equipped with custom form factor Asus Terminator computers and a couple of those unfortunate small ATX HPs.

Every single stupid one had a Bestec power supply, all of them the same ridiculously tiny form factor with minor model variations from unit to unit.

They all blew up in the course of a week or two, completely unprompted. Power on for the day, immediately arcing and flaming.

Unlike the Gateway fiasco, these Bestecs did not harm the other internal components, and I was able to build up one of the HPs in a generic case.

[ch_123]

So cheap PSUs can spike the voltage and send incorrect amounts of power; thus destroying the hardware?

It can manifest itself in all sorts of weird ways. You get crashes, freeze-ups, random reboots and some stuff that defies explanation - I've heard one case where a guy's DVD drive would read CDs but not DVDs, and it stopped when the PSU was replaced... Usually if people have problems with their computers that cannot be fixed by a simple reinstallation of Windows, the PSU is one of the first things to check along with RAM.

[muchadoaboutnothing]

So cheap PSUs can spike the voltage and send incorrect amounts of power; thus destroying the hardware?



I thought if a computer gets a broken capacitor, it just gives a silly message in the BIOS, rather than destroying the whole computer.

Depends on what the capacitor is for.

Cap in my Gateway from 2003 (last prebuilt desktop I ever bought) blew in 2006. It took out everything in the PC. I assume that it was for voltage regulation.

Still, it explains a lot. It blue screened and experienced random corruption for months before the caps blew. Once they did I finally opened the case, those caps that did not explode were either bulging and leaking or bulging.

EDIT: RAM, Processor, optical drives, and hard drive were all nonfunctional with a new PC. So when I say everything blew, I mean everything.

[didjamatic]

It's a piece of garbage. HardwareSecrets tested one straight from the OEM and it tested out at 150W before going kaboom. Apevia might have paid more for upgraded parts, but it's still a crappy design.

Good to know.  I guess I've been lucky so far.

If you have the thing on 24/7 you probably will need to replace the fans in 8 years; but I have some computers with some pretty ancient fans... you'd want fans with bearings instead of sleeves if you want longevity.

I already had to replace 2x 120mm 3spd. fans in my Antec P80 case and it's only 3 years old.  My home PC runs 24x7x365 in a home environment over carpet so I tend to go through fans quickly, even good bb fans.  In my data centers with clean air and stable temperatures, I seldom have a fan fail on anything.

See, I like understated cases, the bling-bling rice-a-roni PSU above was an exception I made to the rule because it had good ratings at the time I bought it.  But maybe those rating it were primarily interested in the LED's rather than Capacitors.

[EverythingIBM]

Depends on what the capacitor is for.

Cap in my Gateway from 2003 (last prebuilt desktop I ever bought) blew in 2006. It took out everything in the PC. I assume that it was for voltage regulation.

Still, it explains a lot. It blue screened and experienced random corruption for months before the caps blew. Once they did I finally opened the case, those caps that did not explode were either bulging and leaking or bulging.

EDIT: RAM, Processor, optical drives, and hard drive were all nonfunctional with a new PC. So when I say everything blew, I mean everything.

You can replace capacitors right? So if you caught them while the computer was having problems and re-soldered some on, it would have been fine?

The old computer I salvaged from my school has some capacitors that look a little bulgy, but nothing is wrong with it.

[muchadoaboutnothing]

You can replace capacitors right? So if you caught them while the computer was having problems and re-soldered some on, it would have been fine?

The old computer I salvaged from my school has some capacitors that look a little bulgy, but nothing is wrong with it.

Yeah, you can do it yourself if you're skilled or pay someone to do it for you

The stuff usually isn't worth repairing though. Not at this point, anyways.

[didjamatic]

Warning to any newbies... Capacitors can kill you long after being unplugged.  Really.

[ricercar]

Especially that big capacitor in the middle of a CRT.

[Phaedrus2129]

Fortunately most computer parts either the caps don't hold enough charge to kill you, or they have a bleed resistor. However, you can't count on that. For instance, any decent PSU will have a bleed resistor for the primary caps, but cheap-os often don't, and so can hold obscene amounts of power for hours or even days. But good ones are usually safe within a minute or two.

[kriminal]

even if the caps are bulgy it can still work, but leaky\faulty caps destroying other components in its wake is quite new info to me..
when the Caps in the dell machines on work started bulging and leaking, the machines gave a weird heating issue error upon POST.
ended up having to either change the caps or the motherboard...

[muchadoaboutnothing]

Fortunately most computer parts either the caps don't hold enough charge to kill you, or they have a bleed resistor. However, you can't count on that. For instance, any decent PSU will have a bleed resistor for the primary caps, but cheap-os often don't, and so can hold obscene amounts of power for hours or even days. But good ones are usually safe within a minute or two.

The take-away from this is if you are questioning whether or not you should try to repair your PSU yourself, the answer is no.

[EverythingIBM]

Yeah, you can do it yourself if you're skilled or pay someone to do it for you

The stuff usually isn't worth repairing though. Not at this point, anyways.

Thanks for the website! Although this isn't a great welcome for an IBMer like me:

when successful, Badcaps.net will offer a FULL polymer kit for these little jewels.  Long live the Mac users!

<-- pfff, if the macs were so great, such kits shouldn't even exist.
Well, I don't want to get rid of my computers, and usually capacitors are the first thing to go. Plus I'm paranoid of bad capacitors in my old intellistation, it's my favourite computer; a few rubycons would ease my worrying.

Especially that big capacitor in the middle of a CRT.

Yeah... those that retain a charge in them still. Although, I've been electrocuted by outdoor christmas lights and electrical wires in a light switch, I'm sure the current isn't THAT strong in little tiny dinky capacitors.

[Phaedrus2129]

Thanks for the website!
Well, I don't want to get rid of my computers, and usually capacitors are the first thing to go. Plus I'm paranoid of bad capacitors in my old intellistation, it's my favourite computer; a few rubycons would ease my worrying.



Yeah... those that retain a charge in them still. Although, I've been electrocuted by outdoor christmas lights and electrical wires in a light switch, I'm sure the current isn't THAT strong in little tiny dinky capacitors.

Famous last words...

[microsoft windows]

Garbage power supply...that seems like a great idea! I've heard of some power plants that burn garbage. I bet it's possible to do that to a smaller scale with a computer. The trash would blend right in with my computers so it'd hardly make a difference.

[kishy]

If unsure, get insulated-handle screwdriver, short posts. Then wait a sec and do it again. And a third time just in case.

[Nonmouse]

Famous last words...

Right up there with "Hey y'all- lookit this!"

[gr1m]

Right up there with "Hey y'all- lookit this!"

Or, "Grab my beer for a second, I'ma show you sumpn'"

[EverythingIBM]

Famous last words...

Well I was too lazy to turn off the power for the lightswitch. And the christmas lights... well... was trying to unscrew a [broken] bulb while they were plugged in (guess I was too lazy to unplug them lol).

Christmas lights were probably the worst since they were DC. Damn does DC ever bite.

[ch_123]

Can anyone with any sort of proper education in electrical engineering elaborate on what you have to do to make a PSU safe when you open it?

[Nonmouse]

Can anyone with any sort of proper education in electrical engineering elaborate on what you have to do to make a PSU safe when you open it?

Here ya go...

[EverythingIBM]

Here ya go...

I think this is better.

[Phaedrus2129]

Well, looky what I got. It's a turd in a box!



Seriously, have you ever seen a product box as bland as this? A picture of the power supply and the word "POWER" with a cheap photoshop globe effect in the background... There's no mention of the company/brand (Linkworld) no advertising BS, no specifications, nothing, just cheap cheap cheap. Utterly generic.

The box is extremely light too, like it might float away in a stiff breeze.



And here we have the model #. The average customer might not be able to tell, since it's just a stuck on sticker that you can't even tell if it's from the manufacturer or the store. But that's what it is: a Linkworld LBJ2 430W.



And here we have the contents of the box. A power cord and a power supply and hey wait a minute...




They're not the same power supply. The one on the box has one of those monitor plugs, while the one inside instead has a power switch and voltage selector switch. The one Gabe Torres got two years ago had the monitor plug; guess they've made some revisions. Can anyone say "borderline false advertising"? Granted I prefer this version, but how cheap are these guys?

(very)

Also, I just thought of something. Gabe's version had the monitor plug and no voltage selector switch... That means that his version can only use 115V input (since it lacks active PFC). However, his version also had upgraded versions of components used purely on the 230V input. Which means that those upgraded components were... ENTIRELY POINTLESS. Hold on tight, folks, I'll be saying that a lot.


Anyway, that's the first installment of "THIS POWER SUPPLY IS A PIECE OF ****ING TRASH". Stay tuned for more!

[Phaedrus2129]

Let's talk about the exterior more.



Here we have the cables, and cost cutting is extremely evident. The wires are very thin, 20AWG, while the recommended gauge is 18AWG. The loadout is as follows:
x1 ATX 20+4 pin
x1 ATX12V 4 pin
x2 Molex
x2 SATA
x1 Floppy

The connectors are all different, colors, indicating that they were picked to come from the cheapest source. The SATA connectors are obvious modifications to an original design, being black vs. translucent or white like the original connectors.



The exterior casing is about as generic as it gets. Note that there is no sleeving on the cables at all, even a plastic sleeve where they leave the housing. That means that these thin wires with their thin insulation will be rubbing up against bare metal. Can anyone else say "inevitable short circuit"?

There is very little space for airflow. I forgot to mention earlier, the unit uses an 80mm rear fan. Ok, fine, but at least give adequate venting for air to enter the power supply. Instead it just has a few holes punched through the case metal, which is, by the way, 0.5mm aluminum that bends very easily.

Oh, and you can see where a zip tie holding an internal component comes through under the cabling. Whoops.



Here we have the specification table, which lists info on all kinds of LPJ2 models from 180W to 500W. I'm curious to look at the <250W models, because... Oops, spoilers.

Ours is the 430W model, which gives us:
+3.3V - 25A
+5V - 34A
+12V - 18A
Combined +5V and +3.3V - 190W Max

Remember those figures, folks, 'cause we'll be talking about them later.

Anyway, these amperage ratings are typical of a low-end power supply adapted from a Pentium 3-era design, when computers drew mainly from the +5V and +3.3V rails, instead of the +12V like modern machines. The +12V rail is beefed up a little, but really a "430W" power supply should have a +12V amperage of at least 32A, over half again what this claims it can do.

It also provides a service number which would be helpful for submitting an RMA when this garbage inevitably self-immolates, except that there's no warranty card in the box, no contact info on the outside of the box, and Linkworld's website is a ****ing turd. Wonderful.



Looking on the bottom of the unit we find--da da-DA! MORE COST CUTTING!!!! Rather than use, you know. $0.005 standoffs to lift the main PCB off the casing they just punch and raise sections of the case. Fantastic. This also gives the user an idea of how thin and flexible the casing really is.



Let's break the warranty sticker and see what's inside this piece of ****.

[kishy]

Heh, I like this kind of critique.

Mind you, it's worth noting that crappy power supplies are quite useful when rebuilding older ATX systems, say P2-P3, as they don't need much juice and won't max out the crappy PSU, and the original PSU may be developing reliability or even safety issues as it ages.

It's especially nice when the cheap units have a proper disconnect switch on the back. One thing I've never trusted about ATX is the system is required to keep itself turned off.

Out of curiosity, what quality is the included cord? I've seen some pretty scary cords come with PSUs from all over the quality spectrum (regarding effective gauge of the conductor inside). 10A rating, my ass...

[Phaedrus2129]

I forgot to mention the cord. It isn't the worst I've seen... But I wouldn't power a computer on it. Maybe a printer.


And these aren't suitable for even old systems, as units of this caliber generally have little or no transient filter and wholly insufficient filtering on the secondary, meaning that ripple and noise levels will be above those allowed by the ATX specifications at all times, which will damage your hardware. Another model from Linkworld (not this one) was tested to have 3000mV of ripple on the +12V rail. That's 3V, 25 times the 120mV allowed by the ATX spec. That will kill your hard drives, motherboard, GPU, even your CPU, in days. This one isn't quite as bad, ~300mV, but you'll still have significant damage within a couple months.


Here's the full article:
http://hardwareaware.com/review/linkworld-430w/

[kishy]

Well...I wasn't expecting it to be THAT terrible.

All I know is I've run a lot of crappy off-brand power supplies and while a lot of them have become unreliable...toss another in the system and reliability problems go away. No catastrophic failures in this house yet.

I'm still surprised that the Bestec explosion computers were entirely usable with new power supplies as well.

[Phaedrus2129]

Well, consider that the PSUs in those machines lasted a good 8-15 years before becoming unusable. Why replace it with something that will fail inside of 2 years?

I recommend two units for old systems. One is the Zippy Emacs 300W:
https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&productId=2077482&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&ddkey=https:CookieLogon

Highest reliability ATX 1.3 PSU on the market, I highly recommend it. Only problem is the fan sounds like a jet engine, so if you don't like the noise or feel uncomfortable with undervolting the fan then I'd grudgingly recommend this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182006&cm_re=Rosewill_350W-_-17-182-006-_-Product

[microsoft windows]

That thing makes my 14-year-old Deer PSU look like Grade A quality.

[kishy]

Well, consider that the PSUs in those machines lasted a good 8-15 years before becoming unusable. Why replace it with something that will fail inside of 2 years?

I recommend two units for old systems. One is the Zippy Emacs 300W:
https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&productId=2077482&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&ddkey=https:CookieLogon

Highest reliability ATX 1.3 PSU on the market, I highly recommend it. Only problem is the fan sounds like a jet engine, so if you don't like the noise or feel uncomfortable with undervolting the fan then I'd grudgingly recommend this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182006&cm_re=Rosewill_350W-_-17-182-006-_-Product

Why replace with something failure prone? Easy, I get it for free.

That said, interesting recommendation on the Zippy. Brand name alone suggests utter crap that must be kept far, far away from anything...can't judge a book by it's cover I guess?

I've got an unfortunate situation with a Hipro standard ATX power supply out of an HP 505n. It works, it reliably powered the system, but I had to dump the HP case. Power supply mount holes are standard buuuuut....upside down. Mounting it right-side-up blocks the vent holes against the case top. I just wanted to equip that computer with a new case and be done with it, but instead I had to go hunting in the closet of doom for a PSU of unknown reliability.

[Phaedrus2129]

Nope, they're server grade. Compare the pictures of that Linkworld to this:



Absolutely packed with components, and weighs more than my Corsair TX750. +5V regulation inside of 1%. Quality capacitors. Good heatsinks. One of the best transient filters I've ever seen, and so beefy it needs its own PCB. A polished 1.25mm thick aluminum casing. It's a beast of a power supply. Zippy's retail units were even better, back around ~2007. The problem is they focused on electrical performance (voltage regulation, ripple suppression) and build quality, and so you ended up with some of the best power supplies of the time in plain aluminum casing with unsleeved cables and jet planes for fans. So they didn't sell, and now they're only available occasionally in Canada and from specialty stores like Jameco.

Beast of a power supply though.

[kishy]

Wow...really, really can't judge a book by its cover.

That might be a worthwhile purchase just to have one in the house as a spare. It couldn't do the job for my desktop (again with the 22A graphics card) but a good test bench PSU would be nice to have around.

[Phaedrus2129]

Yup. Only complaints about the Zippy are the fan, and I'd prefer to see the +12V at ~12-15A, and with a bit tighter regulation. But that's not a huge concern for P2/P3 systems. The +5V regulation, which is important, is amazing. 4.98V idle, 4.95V under maximum load. Steady as a rock.

[EverythingIBM]

Yup. Only complaints about the Zippy are the fan, and I'd prefer to see the +12V at ~12-15A, and with a bit tighter regulation. But that's not a huge concern for P2/P3 systems. The +5V regulation, which is important, is amazing. 4.98V idle, 4.95V under maximum load. Steady as a rock.

Those zippy things look very similar to the case of the 300PL PSU, whatever it is.

Would you be able to change the fan on those zippy PSUs?

[Phaedrus2129]

PHAEDRUS SMASH!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8J8p7I_FHY

[Nonmouse]

Would've been more amusing (and pyrotechnic) if it'd been plugged in...

[kishy]

What you should have done was overload it so it self destructed.

Props either way of course.

[Lenny_Nero]

Yup, SeaSonic S12. Same as the Corsair TX650 and HX620 (only those two). They're nothing great performance wise these days, just average, but they're still very reliable, usually the only part that wears out during normal use is the fan. Of course, I think most of them are still under warranty; we'll have to see how these units do a few years from now.

My first S12 is something like 7 years old. Its been running since I got it, same for my HX620's one of which I got a few weeks after they came out.
If I buy a PSU I go for Seasonic or the Corsair versions (some of the cap qualities go up from 85c to 105c), a few of the new Corsair units are Channel Well Tec, which are far from generic quality pony, but not my first choice, that said, via Corsair they have a 7 year warranty and they (Corsair) dont seem to muck you around when you back stuff.

I use a shop often that has a deal with OCZ and keeps pushing there POS PSU's in their forums saying they are some of the best quality money can buy, they are not happy with my posting of JG links and just telling people to go to the OCZ PSU forums and then the Corsair ones and look at the numbers. They might be less money but what is your kit worth to you ? IMO the PSU is the heart of the box.

At the end of it I just point out that I have never seen a Seasonic or Corsair PSU go bad and take anything else with it, in fact I've not seen that many go bad at all.
But I have seen FSP and no name units take out memory and motherboards.
Also the state of the power coming out of the cables from some of these 'came with the case' PSU's might be able to come close to their rated power (most far from it) but the line supply will be all over the place making all of your other kit have to work much harder.

[Lenny_Nero]

Well, very few do. I mean, doesn't PC P&C subcontract their production out to Seasonic as well?

Yes, for some of the range.

But as to the going ons now (post OCZ) who knows.

[microsoft windows]

I can just tell from the name "Linkworld" that it's a Chinese piece of junk.

[Phaedrus2129]

Brands and OEMs

1 Name Corsair's three current OEMs.

2 Name the OEM and platform of the OCZ StealthXStream 700W.

3 Name three retail PSU brands who are their own OEM.

4 What OEM uses the branding "Hi-Power" on its PCBs?

5 This OEM was founded in 1993 and has manufactured for many brands including Antec, Enermax, and Inwin. Their reputation was marred in 2005/6 due to incidents with poor capacitors, but are currently going strong. Who are they?



Technical

6 What's a reasonable +12V amperage for a 600W power supply?

7 Name five reliable capacitor brands.

8 Are ATX PSUs linear or switched?

9 Does active PFC have any impact on efficiency?

10 What's the role of the PWM chip in a power supply?


Opinion (do not score)

11 What's the difference between single rail and multi rail ATX PSUs and which is better in your opinion?

12 Is the Huntkey X7 900W a quality power supply or no?

13 Which is better: Antec Earthwatts EA430, Antec Earthwatts EA430D, Antec Earthwatts EA430D Green?





0-1 points = Completely incompetent, should not be giving any opinions on computer power supplies.

2-4 points = Some baseline knowledge, but lacks real understanding of PSUs' internal workings or knowledge of brands and OEMs.

5-8 points = Solid knowledge and competent enough to give basic advice and recommendations, but doesn't have a full understanding.

9-10 points = Knowledgeable enough to give reliable advice in most computer power supply subjects, though not necessarily an expert.


Opinion questions: these have no "correct" answer, but can be used to gauge the general PSU knowledge level of the tested individual based on expressed knowledge and how they justify their answers. Especially useful for weeding out those with good Google-fu, as they won't be able to justify their positions.



I'll post the answers on the second page. Get to it!


























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