Author Topic: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?  (Read 6274 times)

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Offline jamster

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #50 on: Tue, 16 June 2020, 18:42:41 »
It'd be interesting to hear what you have to say about the ABKO.  The PLUM/NIZ 45g is their 35g + spring and that totally kills the feel...If you have 45g domes that would be nice as you'll have a better weighting and still keep the tactility...

Can I ask, you're quite sure on this?

If so this has totally wiped out any chance of me ever buying a NIZ board (was thinking of buying one for a family member).

Such a method of achieving a switch weighting sounds... totally disingenuous and misleading. You'd end up with something that doesn't feel like Topre at all, it just sounds purely linear. Even my silenced 45 is a tad too close to linear for my liking.

Offline al3azef

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #51 on: Wed, 17 June 2020, 04:39:22 »
Can we get photos of these differently sized keys?

Sounds like a production or assembly issue. It's costly to make specifically odd sized key caps, they're usually just produced by row number in identical moulds. So either a cap has been misprinted in some freak accident (don't know if Niz caps are double shot or printed), badly cast, or improperly seated. Or something else weird is going on here.

Sure. I have taken these photos from my phone. Excuse the quality.

As you can see in the first three photos, the Del is much bigger than the home and other keys around it. This makes it very annoying to hit while coding on the keyboard or doing Linux administration. Not only this, but as you can see in photo 2 the Del is not well fitted (I draw a line from  top to bottom). If I slightly touch it with my finger it gets aligned (photos 3)
 245111-0245113-1245115-2

Now I pulled the keys with fingers without the need for a puller and with 0 effort as they are all low quality, loosely fitted and wobbling :)
245117-3245119-4245121-5

If there is ONE thing that is good about this keyboard,  I would say the the sound, a way much better than any other keywords I have owned/seen. But, honestly for this price tag, I would expect much much better product.

Offline al3azef

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #52 on: Wed, 17 June 2020, 04:47:19 »
Ok. Once you have my "specific model" , then you can come back and share (not force) your opinions, feedback...etc
Quote

Why?  It isn't like they'd completely change what they're doing.  Nothing indicates the keycaps are smaller than normal ones, in fact all evidence points to them being at least the same size if not bigger based on other keyboards from this same manufacturer.  If it is smaller, grab your realforce keycap and the plum one and do a side by side.  Add value to this with proof. 

You're sure!! You must have surveillance in my home  :eek: Your title has been updated: the picture-based all-knowing reviewer  :)
Quote

If you had you would've either mentioned it or took pictures to show some real value here.  Neither of which you've done.  You can't even describe how this keyboard isn't a solid build even though every evidence suggests that in the least, it is a fairly solid build. 

Or show the extra wobbly keys.

Or show how the ESC/DEL is different than the rest of the F row...

I mean, why would you compare it to XT keycaps when you've suggested you have a RF.  Maybe a bit of making stuff up?

This post not for marketing  nor commissions - look for other posts. 

Offline jamster

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #53 on: Wed, 17 June 2020, 04:56:17 »
Thanks for the photos.

Coming off without a cap puller sounds not great.

The height comparison, is Del the same size and height as F12?  Those are the keys that should match. I'm not sure what profile Niz uses, I'd guess at OEM or Cherry as they're the most common on stock boards. R1 (Del) is higher than R2 (Home) on most profiles.

Edit: forgot to add this https://mechkeys.tech/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/keycap-profiles.jpg

Anyway, sounds like this board isn't really for you. Good luck with the search.
« Last Edit: Wed, 17 June 2020, 05:16:18 by jamster »

Offline al3azef

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #54 on: Wed, 17 June 2020, 05:15:31 »
Thanks for the photos.

Coming off without a cap puller sounds not great.

The height comparison, is Del the same size and height as F12?  Those are the keys that should match. I'm not sure what profile Niz uses, I'd guess at OEM or Cherry as they're the most common on stock boards. R1 (Del) is higher than R2 (Home) on most profiles.

Yes, you can remove all key caps without a puller and with 0-effort!  I just took two other photos for you to see the DEL compared to F12. what I noticed when they are on my table, there is a slight difference. But what makes it worse is when you put them back on the keyboard because of the fitting issue I mentioned before.
245123-0245125-1

Offline al3azef

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #55 on: Wed, 17 June 2020, 05:20:51 »
This is the last time that I buy Chinese product, not only this but from such private small business! If this keyboard were below 30 USD, it would not hurt. But it cost me about 130 USD :eek:

Unfortunately, there are so many people online who are affiliated with this NIZ and are spreading so much false reviews! For example, if you look at NIZ page on Ali Express, you will find that this product is rated as a 5-star by EU and Asians buyers  :eek:
« Last Edit: Wed, 17 June 2020, 05:26:04 by al3azef »

Offline jamster

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #56 on: Wed, 17 June 2020, 05:35:47 »
I think you just had bad luck and for a lemon, tbh. See if you can return it. I doubt whether anyone here had undeclared associations with an obscure Chinese keyboard maker ;)

Also 35g is just way too light if you're not being totally crippled by 55g Topre.

Offline phinix

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #57 on: Wed, 17 June 2020, 07:39:23 »
I would suggest something I've done for myself and many other friends around.

I would go for Realforce R2 TKL 45g, buy Novatouch sliders and install them and add Deskeys #3 silencing rings.

I did that with my 55g R2 and it is end-game topre board for me.

Then you could throw some SA, MT3 or MDA caps on it, which have bigger top surface - MDA is biggest I think.

Here's my RF R2 TKL 55g, modded with Novatouch sliders and rings with MDA caps.

For you - modded r2 45g would be best solution, in my opinion.

Show Image


It seems that's where I am heading :thumb:  Just a question: instead of modding, did you consider the PFU Topre R2 Limited Edition which is silenced already? Some people like the variable version of Topre R2, what do you think?

Thanks for sharing your awesome keyboard's pics!

If you pick limited edition, silenced, you will still have to swap sliders with Novatouch to use MX caps and move original topre silencing rings to Novatouch sliders. Of course only if you want to use MX caps - I understand you want to have bigger caps, so this is the only way.
Either - R2 45g - Novatouch sliders - Deskeys rings
or - R2 45g SE silenced - Novatouch sliders - original topre rings

Just a note - my personal opinion - original topre silence rings are pretty thick, #3 deskeys rings are thinner and take off less thock off the key strokes. Topre silencing is thick and makes it more muted and thock feeling is a bit muffled for my taste. Prefer thinner rings, like #3 deskeys.
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Offline Riverman

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #58 on: Wed, 17 June 2020, 11:22:56 »
If you really want a silenced Topre that will take MX keycaps, why not just silence a Realforce RGB?  I just silenced one with Deskeys #3 RGB rings, and it's heavenly now.  All of the nasty noises unique to the RGB are gone.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #59 on: Wed, 17 June 2020, 11:25:28 »
Thanks for the photos.

Coming off without a cap puller sounds not great.

The height comparison, is Del the same size and height as F12?  Those are the keys that should match. I'm not sure what profile Niz uses, I'd guess at OEM or Cherry as they're the most common on stock boards. R1 (Del) is higher than R2 (Home) on most profiles.

Yes, you can remove all key caps without a puller and with 0-effort!  I just took two other photos for you to see the DEL compared to F12. what I noticed when they are on my table, there is a slight difference. But what makes it worse is when you put them back on the keyboard because of the fitting issue I mentioned before.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

I'm not sure why you didn't compare it to the F row initially..and as expected they're the same...

Now you've said the keycaps themselves are smaller...why not do the same w/ your RF keycaps? 

I think what you'll find is they have more surface area....but they also feel a bit more scoopy which is why you might think they're smaller even though they're not.

If your keycaps can come off easily, that's odd...that's what you should specify in your comments about the build quality.  Other plums I've seen do not really have this problem.  Compared to normal Topre of course they're easier and maybe slightly easier than normal Cherry but not by much...it really isn't much different than any MX Topre slider.  Providing a frame of reference would be good because what you're saying seems to come from some inexperience. 

 

Offline Polymer

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #60 on: Wed, 17 June 2020, 11:33:37 »
It'd be interesting to hear what you have to say about the ABKO.  The PLUM/NIZ 45g is their 35g + spring and that totally kills the feel...If you have 45g domes that would be nice as you'll have a better weighting and still keep the tactility...

Can I ask, you're quite sure on this?

If so this has totally wiped out any chance of me ever buying a NIZ board (was thinking of buying one for a family member).

Such a method of achieving a switch weighting sounds... totally disingenuous and misleading. You'd end up with something that doesn't feel like Topre at all, it just sounds purely linear. Even my silenced 45 is a tad too close to linear for my liking.

Yes...100%...it is the one thing I dislike about the plum..The spring takes what is already very little tactility to basically no tactility...I currently have the "45g" version which basically feels the same (I haven't tried them side by side so I suspect they're the same domes just with "springs" you can add)...it works and I can work on it fine but it still feels super light and nowhere near the same tactility as normal Topre...for some people this might be good, for me it isn't.

But, I'm not worried about losing it or it getting stolen...

Variable RF:  If you use proper typing form, they're actually really nice to use...very comfortable and probably my favorite to type on for longer sessions (which seems less frequent now).  Gaming wise = sucks.   So if you only need one keyboard, it would suck.  For a work machine, it is great...It is easy to tell how much less work your fingers have to use because when I switch back and forth, my pinkies get tired on uniform until I get used to it again..
« Last Edit: Wed, 17 June 2020, 11:35:37 by Polymer »

Offline al3azef

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #61 on: Thu, 18 June 2020, 14:54:53 »

If you pick limited edition, silenced, you will still have to swap sliders with Novatouch to use MX caps and move original topre silencing rings to Novatouch sliders. Of course only if you want to use MX caps - I understand you want to have bigger caps, so this is the only way.
Either - R2 45g - Novatouch sliders - Deskeys rings
or - R2 45g SE silenced - Novatouch sliders - original topre rings

Just a note - my personal opinion - original topre silence rings are pretty thick, #3 deskeys rings are thinner and take off less thock off the key strokes. Topre silencing is thick and makes it more muted and thock feeling is a bit muffled for my taste. Prefer thinner rings, like #3 deskeys.


Thanks Phinix  for the info! it definitely helps me before placing my order.

Offline al3azef

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #62 on: Mon, 29 June 2020, 02:51:18 »

I would go for Realforce R2 TKL 45g, buy Novatouch sliders and install them and add Deskeys #3 silencing rings.

I did that with my 55g R2 and it is end-game topre board for me.

Then you could throw some SA, MT3 or MDA caps on it, which have bigger top surface - MDA is biggest I think.

Here's my RF R2 TKL 55g, modded with Novatouch sliders and rings with MDA caps.

For you - modded r2 45g would be best solution, in my opinion.



Are the SA, MT3 or MDA caps made of  PBT?  How is their quality compared to the stock Topre caps?

Offline jamster

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #63 on: Mon, 29 June 2020, 03:14:01 »
Are the SA, MT3 or MDA caps made of  PBT?  How is their quality compared to the stock Topre caps?

These are just profiles, not manufacturers. A manufacturer can use any material they want, to make keycaps in whatever profile they want. Similarly, they could make them in whatever profile to varying levels of quality. (SA used to be specific to Signature Plastics, but this is no longer the case).

So you're going to have to look at the specific set, find out who makes it and out of what material. Stock Topre caps are PBT, on the thin side (which seems to suit the mechanism well), and high quality. Spacebar might be ABS, but I can't remember. Anything else, and YMMV.

It's also worth mentioning that a profile like SA is spherical instead of cylindrical. These feel really different- maybe you will like them, maybe not. I really dislike the feeling of spherical caps.

Offline rxc92

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #64 on: Mon, 29 June 2020, 05:16:55 »
How is their quality compared to the stock Topre caps?
 
 
Topre caps are very good in terms of quality, they're medium-thick PBT with dye sublimation printing, a relatively high quality and permanent printing method. Thicker keycaps will significantly alter the feeling of the switch (as will thinner), so unless you dislike the inherent feeling of the switch, you shouldn't change them out. The different profiles are just different sculpts, and very much up to personal preference. Topre profile is the same sculpt as OEM and Cherry, but in between them in height; it's really not worth switching to either since there's no real change. SA (spherical) is super tall and has spherical scoops instead of the standard cylindrical; looks very aesthetic but feels awful. There are Realforce-made boards with SA keycaps called 'high profile' which are very expensive. MT3 is a slightly adjusted SA, MDA is a shorter SA and manages to be equally uncomfortable while being uglier.   

Offline jamster

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #65 on: Mon, 29 June 2020, 06:40:57 »
SA (spherical) is super tall and has spherical scoops instead of the standard cylindrical; looks very aesthetic but feels awful. There are Realforce-made boards with SA keycaps called 'high profile' which are very expensive. MT3 is a slightly adjusted SA, MDA is a shorter SA and manages to be equally uncomfortable while being uglier.

SA looks fugly, like a throwback to the days of 60s-70s minicomputer/mainframe terminals. It's compounded when the font is giant and centred.

Does MT3 retain the very pointy corners that you find on SA caps? If so I'll know to avoid that profile as well.

I'll likely be needing a constant-height keycap selection soon, and the options are looking quite limited. Off the top of my head it's DSA (spherical, but hopefully not as pointy as SA) or XDA (big, flat, chicklet-like).

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #66 on: Mon, 29 June 2020, 08:17:10 »
Isn't there KAM profile, which is KAT profile but all one row? These are well-liked profiles, Jamster, so you could try that.

MT3 is not a modified SA. It was designed from scratch to work with modern MX keyboards using modern angles.

Unlike SA, which probably was designed for keyboards prior to the Model M, which had different angles and sculpts from modern keyboards, MT3 is aligned correctly with the MX stem. It is a deep-dished spherical profile. I don't remember if it has sharp edges, but the spherical dishes on the keycap surfaces are very comfortable and deep. They are intended to evoke the old beamspring keycaps, but at the correct angle.

I've used SA and typed on MT3, and MT3 is a million times more comfortable. It takes some getting used to, but it's more like OEM on your fingers than SA. SA profile is going to decline in popularity as KAT and MT3 are modern designs that are much more comfortable for most people. MT3 is the only spherical that I enjoy typing on.

Offline al3azef

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #67 on: Tue, 30 June 2020, 05:24:05 »

@jamster @HungerMechanic  @rxc92

Thanks guys for the great info! I am learning a lot in here. 

Since I am looking for bigger key caps (with similar quality/feeling or better) than the stock ones of RF TKL R2 PFU edition, do you recommend any?  I am considering also buying the variable RF TKL and live with its small key caps till I get used to it :)


Offline jamster

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #68 on: Tue, 30 June 2020, 07:10:07 »
I don't remember if it has sharp edges, but the spherical dishes on the keycap surfaces are very comfortable and deep. They are intended to evoke the old beamspring keycaps, but at the correct angle.

Yeah, that's what I'm hoping to avoid. It's the exaggerated dishing that I find uncomfortable with SA (not a fan of the height either). It reminds me a bit of trying to type on dished F/J homing keys.

I'll keep an eye out for KAM, but suspect it's a bit obscure, will have to see if I can find a blanks set somewhere. DSA, on paper, looks like it might be okay.

Offline rxc92

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #69 on: Tue, 30 June 2020, 19:21:09 »

@jamster @HungerMechanic  @rxc92

Thanks guys for the great info! I am learning a lot in here. 

Since I am looking for bigger key caps (with similar quality/feeling or better) than the stock ones of RF TKL R2 PFU edition, do you recommend any?  I am considering also buying the variable RF TKL and live with its small key caps till I get used to it :)
 
 
Didn't people already say that no such thing exists? Keycaps are already near the maximum size they can be without being cubes. If you want more surface area, that's impossible. If you literally only want a physically larger keycap, then the high profile are 'bigger' because they're much taller. 

Offline jamster

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Re: Closest to Topre but with larger keycaps?
« Reply #70 on: Tue, 30 June 2020, 20:25:15 »

@jamster @HungerMechanic  @rxc92

Thanks guys for the great info! I am learning a lot in here. 

Since I am looking for bigger key caps (with similar quality/feeling or better) than the stock ones of RF TKL R2 PFU edition, do you recommend any?  I am considering also buying the variable RF TKL and live with its small key caps till I get used to it :)
 
 
Didn't people already say that no such thing exists? Keycaps are already near the maximum size they can be without being cubes. If you want more surface area, that's impossible. If you literally only want a physically larger keycap, then the high profile are 'bigger' because they're much taller.

XDA looks like a bunch of cubes. From the photos it'd be pretty unpleasant- like typing on high chicklets, but I'd curious to try it just to check this.

But maybe that's what the OP is looking for.

https://drop.com/talk/887/xda-keycaps-a-new-keycap-profile

« Last Edit: Tue, 30 June 2020, 20:26:46 by jamster »