I feel like a ****... I think I should just suck it up and get a topre

[randku]

Most of my female friends think my keyboards if they see them.

...

[n3rrd]

...

He accidentally the whole thing (kind of).

[patrickgeekhack]

Really?  People look at me like some kind of retard.  It's the number one reason I do not evangelize keyboards.  I dismiss the topic and move on.  Most people do not share our enthusiasm.

True, most people don't share our enthusiasm. What I hate most, however, is that these same people feel they have the right to criticize or make fun of my enthusiasm for my keyboards, pens and paper and other hobbies.  I don't make fun of their hobbies. Some wash their cars and wax them every weekend. I don't do that. Some invest in big screen TV or home theatre. I don't do that either. So, why on earth, do they feel the need to make fun of my hobbies? I don't know.

[ch_123]

...

Fixed.

[unicomp]

Most

Well that really depends on how you are considering the 'fraction' 0/0, surely; which limit is being used?

[ch_123]

Well that really depends on how you are considering the 'fraction' 0/0, surely; which limit is being used?

Had to be done...

[wellington1869]

I think that was the problem I had in Computer Science in college.  I was under the impression that I was going to learn about Computer Science.  Little did I know classes were just a place for people that already knew everything about CS to come and socialize.  

grad school in the humanities is a lot like that too. You cant come here to learn about other cultures and sociology and politics. Its assumed that you already have a firm opinion and are merely here to find allies/socialize.  
 

I switched majors shortly after that.

i dont blame you, its a crock.

[wellington1869]

True, most people don't share our enthusiasm. What I hate most, however, is that these same people feel they have the right to criticize or make fun of my enthusiasm for my keyboards, pens and paper and other hobbies.  I don't make fun of their hobbies. Some wash their cars and wax them every weekend. I don't do that. Some invest in big screen TV or home theatre. I don't do that either. So, why on earth, do they feel the need to make fun of my hobbies? I don't know.

apparently thats a law of human society: Everyone else's hobbies suck.

speaking of which, I just bought an HP convertible tablet on ebay.  That brings the computer collection in my room up to seven.

why type when you can write?


I'm actually hoping the combination of Dragon voice recognition and ABBYY OCR and Win7/onenote handwriting recognition will all together allow me to type less and less. I think the technology is getting to a point where its almost useful now.

[ironman31]

True, most people don't share our enthusiasm. What I hate most, however, is that these same people feel they have the right to criticize or make fun of my enthusiasm for my keyboards, pens and paper and other hobbies.  I don't make fun of their hobbies. Some wash their cars and wax them every weekend. I don't do that. Some invest in big screen TV or home theatre. I don't do that either. So, why on earth, do they feel the need to make fun of my hobbies? I don't know.

I pretty much use this comeback whenever anybody questions my use of money

[ricercar]

just bought an HP convertible tablet on ebay. ... why type when you can write?

Welcome to the club. Tablets with styluses rule

[gr1m]

Looks like "butt" to me.

[wellington1869]

Welcome to the club. Tablets with styluses rule

playing around with it right now.  tablets have come a *long* way, i'm really very pleasantly surprised.  I used to own a tablet about 6-8 years ago, an M200 (from a company called M systems? something like that*). It was a great form factor ("pure" tablet/slate), but ran too slow, ran too hot, ran xp tablet edition, and worst of all the screen looked crappy if you didnt view it straight-on.

All of those problems are gone on this HP, its a really pleasant and even -- dare i say it -- efficient experience using the stylus.

*Motion Computing, thats what it was called.

[EverythingIBM]

Given that later IBM PCs more than likely came out of the same factories as HPs, Dells etc etc and were probably made to the same spec, If I take some HP computer and wrote "IBM" on it with a permanent marker, do I have an IBM PC?

The irony is that EIBM has no interest in the interesting stuff that IBM made/makes, only the useless, overpriced ****.

Nahh... I've opened HPs Dells and IBMs all from the same era, IBM always adds extra cool lavender doodads, easier access, quality control etc. The support is 1000x better too. Drivers are so easy to get. HP on the other hand; smack my skull against a wall until it bleeds, it took me hours... I did get the computer up and running with the drivers, but finding them was a b#tch. I told my step bro that he owed me big time lol.

And I should add, I DO use other brands, I am just more content with IBM 'cause they know how I like it.

[wellington1869]

re: the butt picture, that wasnt me. I found it on google images and thought it was humorous.

my old m200 ran XP tablet edition, it wasnt bad but desperately needed a faster processor. Win7's tablet mode is brilliant (and processors have caught up).  Even more than the accuracy though I really like the screen's "wide angle" display. A real pleasure to view it compared to my old XP slate.

Will install Onenote tomorrow, but also found this, which i'd never heard of before.
From MS: Inkseine

>

[wellington1869]

win7 handwriting recognition -- my HP is doing it about as fast and accurate as this dude's:

>

[ch_123]

The average person writes 30WPM, I can type 80-100... Even if the writing recognition worked perfectly, I could never imagine why I'd want to use it.

[Brodie337]

This is probably a good place to bring up my hobby of trolling the Mac fanboys with the Minitouch in the library...

[itlnstln]

Welcome to the club. Tablets with styluses rule

It's not styli?

[ironman31]

The only time id prefer a tablet would be for math and such

[wellington1869]

The average person writes 30WPM, I can type 80-100... Even if the writing recognition worked perfectly, I could never imagine why I'd want to use it.

ya it'll never compete with keyboard (i type about 100wpm and could never approach that with handwriting).

But I see handwriting recog as having its place; its a convenience which i'm increasingly appreciating. Basically whenever i'm not simply sitting upright in front of desk, the stylus is handy. And increasingly we compute away from our desks.

examples when I like/appreciate the stylus:
-taking notes while reading a book
-marking up/commenting an ebook while reading it on the tablet (and having those comments be searchable)
-outlining a quick things to do list (or a memo)
-planning workflows/organizing concepts and ideas -> drawing mind maps (that can be searched/shared easily)
-taking notes while on the phone/watching a movie/lying upside down in bed

When handwriting recog works well (and its really getting there to a useable standard), all the above things suddenly become truly possible to do in an efficient way (in fact, not doing them is what becomes inefficient).

Same for voice recognition -- its a niche input activity for me.
--reading long quotes from books directly into my document. This is handy especially for students and paper-writers and journalists and etc (probably not so much for coders).
--sending quick replies to your day's emails
--or simply when you're just tired of typing.

Dragon's voice recog (and for that matter, the voice recog built into win7) is still occasionally frustrating - no surprise there - but what is surprising is how well it DOES work.  

Handwriting recog in one way has a leg up on voice recog.  In voice recog, personal names etc are often the hardest to input (have to teach each one to dragon, laboriously). In handwriting recog, it simply recognizes each letter individually, so i find i dont need to 'train' it as often with words it doesnt know. So its better sometimes than voice recog.

Similarly with ABBYY finereader OCR (takes a photo of text and turns it into editable text) -- saves TONS of typing -- and invaluable when you have lots of printed text to input.  I've been using it a lot to convert some of my books to ebooks (searchable pdf's). I actually built a digitizing station at home and i'm able to achieve 1-second-per-page digitization of my books. I'm a big believer in ebooks - the convenience and the space- and cost-saving.

Taken together, even with their limitations, these things expand the variety of ways that text winds up on a computer. I'm not looking to replace the keyboard (i dont think that will ever happen), but i'm very glad to diversify my input methods if and when they work well.  Their current limitations dont surprise me; What i'm surprised about is how well they do work today, and i'm looking forward to continued rapid improvement in these alternate methods. I can use them.

[wellington1869]

ipads are neat alright, but too limited for me (in everything - power, expandability, accessories, interface options, etc).  

(not to mention my moral issues with apple culture

[ch_123]

People who dislike Apple products because they dislike Apple are almost as annoying as Apple fanboys... The merit of their products should be assessed on what they are, not who they are made by.

[ricercar]

people who dislike apple products because they dislike apple are almost as annoying as apple fanboys... The merit of their products should be assessed on what they are, not who they are made by.

qft

[washuai]

People who dislike Apple products because they dislike Apple are almost as annoying as Apple fanboys... The merit of their products should be assessed on what they are, not who they are made by.

I want to support the smack slapping sluts, but only Polly Pure Poodle gets the lead in the greatest movie ever made.  I damn well can dislike the movie, and refuse to buy/watch it, because it stars Polly Pure Poodle, instead of a smack slapping slut.

Although, I hadn't experienced the movie, so it would be really annoying if I ran around screaming "The movie sucks, the movie sucks!  Down with Polly Pure Poodle!"

To clarify without silliness - they're free to dislike the Apple.  Hell, they're free to trash Apple products.  But yea, I need to be free to ignore listening/reading to their uneducated biased drivel, just as much as the fan boys.

[wellington1869]

People who dislike Apple products because they dislike Apple are almost as annoying as Apple fanboys... The merit of their products should be assessed on what they are, not who they are made by.

disagree.  

First off, I have an ibook, and i've had an ipod, and etc. So i'm not avoiding apple products when I think they CAN fill a niche in my computing universe.

I'm avoiding the ipad because of genuine limitations of the product when compared to my actual needs.

But lets put aside what I'm doing here thats different from mac-evangelists.

Lets assume, for the sake of argument, that what i'm doing is the same as what mac-evangelists do.  Even so, I'd still disagree with your statement. On two grounds:

1) First, Tell me you've never boycotted a company because of some of their policies, regardless of the worth of their products? Its quite commonly done. Remember when everyone boycotted Coke because of their south africa policies? Exxon after the alaska spill? BP today?

How about the montgomery, Alabama bus system in 1955?

On the flip side:
Have you ever considered buying linux cuz you support open software as a concept, and are willing to put up with subpar support and few drivers just because you believe in the basic concept?  
How about supporting firefox for the same reason agianst IE?

How about supporting an environmentally friendly company (toms toothpaste, anyone?) because you believe in the underlying ecological morality even if the product, er, needs a little work? Same idea.

So all this has been done before, and sometimes for quite compelling reasons.

2) So I find it hard to conceptually separate issues of Corporate Morality from the products or even think that I ought to.  Corporate morality vs products - these clash (and come together) all the time in an open consumer market, and thats only natural.   People are not automatons. We have morals and values and these inform our purchasing decision as much as any other part of our lives. And should. We can argue about the relative merits about the values we hold -- and thats a normal conversation to have in a democracy too. But we cant pretend those values dont exist, or that our purchasing decisions dont impact the world around us in moral and ethical ways.

To take another analogy I like to give: I'll buy jet engines from non-nazi's, but not from nazi's. That decision has nothing to do with the jet engine itself, has everything to do with the corporate entity behind the product. And it should.
So yea, the culture of the entity behind the product, matters a great deal and ought to inform our larger conversation about values and morality and responsiblity.

With regards to "apple culture" specifically, I can give more details, but personally I have issues with apple culture on two levels:
1) Internal culture: draconian, dictatorial (suicides, secrecy to point of hurting people, bad engineering designs in favor of aesthetics, etc: draconian dictatorial culture to degree more any other consumer tech company I know: its a "culture" internal to the company, and has conseqeunces both for employees and for designs (gizmodo most recently quoted mac engineers complaining that iphone antenna flaw happened because dictatorial following of aesthetics over functionality). So their internal culture, I have issues with.
2) External popular culture: (a culture of (what i consider to be) deceit in advertising (the mac vs pc ads, I thought, were horrifyingly simplistic), brainwashing masses, creating cult/religion, encouraging it, using all the things cults use).

The combination of the two cultures is particularly abhorrent, in my view; and is a way of life in the apple world, as far as I can see. And both ends of it (its internal culture and its external culture) rubs me the wrong way, goes against many of my moral views on how companies ought to be run and the rules by which they ought to compete in the marketplace.

But look, thats just me. I'm not alone in these views, but I also dont let them entirely stop me from buying apple products. As I said, I have an ibook and I've owned an ipod and I might even buy an iPad if it fills a niche for me.  These are just some thoughts that I debate with myself (and friends) from time to time, thats all.  

Apple arent nazis, so its not such a cut and dry case, but they definitely do things that I'm concerned about, and I definitely believe these moral considerations are legitimate ones for a consumer to think about. Where mac-evangelists  rub me the wrong way, its because they're incapable of having that conversation as a conversation; and because their underlying moral universe prefers a dictatorship to a democracy. (Much like Apple - the company - itself). Dont even get me started on the (political) censorship issues in the App store, or the draconian licensing that controls app coders. Apple (and their evangelists) seem totally anti-democracy to me, from internal culture to external culture to treatement of coders, consumers, employees, all the way down the line. And thats something I must consider from time to time if my values run in the opposite direction.

[itlnstln]

I think ch_123 was talking about companies on average, not those that have committed gross ethics violations.  That's something different altogether.  The idea, which I agree with, is that there are a lot of people that judge a (normal) company based off some kind of irrational logic and not for the true merits of their products.  Really, when you look at an Apple PC, it is, for all intents and purposes, the same piece of equipment as an HP, Dell, etc.  With that in mind, where does all of the irrational love/hate come from?


Success.  Success breeds haters/bandwagoners.  It goes for MS, Dell, Google, etc.

[wellington1869]

I think ch_123 was talking about companies on average, not those that have committed gross ethics violations.  

ya, i guess i'm making an argument (no means my own argument, its increasingly common out there in the blogosphere) that while apple arent yet nazis, they are clearly leaning in one direction rather than another, and that leaning bothers me. ANd i think its a legitimate thing for me to think about and consider when I consider their products.

[itlnstln]

I guess from my perspective, all companies are just about the same; and outside of those like BP, Enron, Exxon and the like; whichever company has the best product gets my money.  It's rare when a company can stand out as being "good," and they have a lot of work to do to prove it to me.  Because of this, I think pretty much all companies are equally "evil," and the best product wins.

Applying this to your Linux example, those companies/products do not exist in my book.  The only company I support is the one I work for, and that is because they are a "good" company, they have the lowest prices, and I work for them.  In that case, they win on both image and product which is rare.

[ricercar]

people who dislike Dell products because they dislike Dell are almost as annoying as Microsoft Windows and eIBM fanboys... The merit of their products should be assessed on what they are, not who they are made by.

Michael Dell is an ass. I won't buy a retail Dell product thereby. I own a (donated) Dell Lattitude c810. It's OK for what it does.

Hey, I'm from the USA. We let a sexual predator remain President because he had been doing such a good job for 6 years.

[ch_123]

Woah, crushed... by... gigantic... tl;dr... rant...

1) First, Tell me you've never boycotted a company because of some of their policies, regardless of the worth of their products? Its quite commonly done. Remember when everyone boycotted Coke because of their south africa policies? Exxon after the alaska spill? BP today?

I haven't.

If you look long and hard enough into the ownership of any company or product, you'll find that just about everything is owned by egomaniac sociopaths who like to gangbang starving African orphans and club baby seals, often simultaneously, and all for the lulz.

Of course, you have these annoying hipster *******s with their boycotts and trendy causes, but really it all accomplishes nothing because for every quantifiable unit of 'good' they render on to the world, they cause more bad with all the other things that they do and buy that are just as bad... but hey, they aren't the trendy cause of the moment, so who cares?

To me, the logical conclusion of all this talk is to become a hermit and live off your immediate surroundings in a non-destructive way. However, I don't see many others doing that, so I don't see why I should either.
 
I assume you are referring to commonly cited allegations of unethical manufacturing carried out by Apple. The reality is that the companies who make Apple's paraphernalia are also the ones who make everyone else's goods. Foxconn? Hell, they make motherboards for every brand name PC you can think of. They also make loads of stuff for Microsoft. You know, that keyboard that you're using right now... that probably came from there too. So much for making a righteous stand against tyranny.
 

2) External popular culture: (a culture of (what i consider to be) deceit in advertising (the mac vs pc ads, I thought, were horrifyingly simplistic), brainwashing masses, creating cult/religion, encouraging it, using all the things cults use).

I had a conversation about this the other day with a friend. High end computer companies are not viable - look at what happened to Sun, SGI, DEC, IBM (before they became sellouts) and all the others... People aren't really that interested in good computes, they just want the basic cheapo Dell model so they can replace it in 18 months... Apple has very intensive marketing to keep strong brand loyalty, and it works for them. I find it a bit insidious myself, but I don't really let it into the decision matrix when I'm evaluating whether something of theirs is good or not.

Irrespective of whether you buy their stuff or not, I think Apple is a net positive force on the market because they have a funny habit of saving great ideas from obscurity. The GUI, mouse, MP3 player, touchscreen smart phone, tablet computer etc etc were not their creation, but they were responsible for creating demand, and thus competition, which is pretty good for the consumer and the general progression of technology, or at least so I think.

Dont even get me started on the (political) censorship issues in the App store, or the draconian licensing that controls app coders.

Just the other day it was announced that Google killed apps on their Android market. Yeah, you know, that one that is meant to be a shining beacon of liberty... I don't think that companies trying to control the quality of their platform is a bad thing. Look no further than Windows to see what happens when it goes horribly wrong...

[wellington1869]

If you look long and hard enough into the ownership of any company or product, you'll find that just about everything is owned by egomaniac sociopaths who like to gangbang starving African orphans and club baby seals, often simultaneously, and all for the lulz.

ya but ch, that doesnt excuse anyone, it merely condemns everyone. Again I feel like you're using the "they did it too" excuse to excuse an obvious wrong (like with founding fathers vs al queda).

Story: Its 10th grade, small upstate NY river town. I'm running down the hallway of my high school, late for class (or maybe for no particular reason, i dont remember). My english teacher walks by, grabs me.

Why are you running? You're not allowed to run. Walk, or I'll write you up.
me: but everyone else is running. (indeed, everyone else was running to class as the bell is ringing).
At this point he said something that I've mulled over in my mind in various ways over the years:
"I'm not talking to them, I'm talking to you."
me, scratching my head trying to make sense of what he means: yes, but they're all running and they're getting away with it. Why should *I* get in trouble?

I've thought about that little scene in my head so often over the years. Each time I think about it, I feel like I learn something new. I definitely firmly believed that either everyone gets punished, or none should. For me to be singled out, in my view, was the height of injustice.  

Today though, I'm not so sure of that particular reasoning any more. Not saying i'm in a better place; but whenever that reasoning comes up in conversation, I'm reminded of that hallway episode, lol.

But I think thats two ways to look at it, and both are valid. On the one hand it merely condemns everyone. On the other hand we can hold apple accountable regardless of what others are doing. And in either case apple doesnt get a free pass (any more than al queda in that other example).

[ch_123]

ya but ch, that doesnt excuse anyone, it merely condemns everyone. Again I feel like you're using the "they did it too" excuse to excuse an obvious wrong (like with founding fathers vs al queda).

I think you're missing the point. The problem is that Apple isn't necessarily more evil than any of its competitors. To say that one should refrain from purchasing Apple because of the unethical practices they stand over doesn't accomplish anything, because as long as you want to buy your laptop/phone/mp3/tablet etc you still inflict damange irrespective of where it comes from.

Really you could say that it is the product of this consumerism thing that people are always hawking on about. Perhaps the real issue is with yourself (or me, or anyone really) and not with the companies that facilitate you.

Story: Its 10th grade, small upstate NY river town. I'm running down the hallway of my high school, late for class (or maybe for no particular reason, i dont remember). My english teacher walks by, grabs me.

Why are you running? You're not allowed to run. Walk, or I'll write you up.
me: but everyone else is running. (indeed, everyone else was running to class as the bell is ringing).
At this point he said something that I've mulled over in my mind in various ways over the years:
"I'm not talking to them, I'm talking to you."
me, scratching my head trying to make sense of what he means: yes, but they're all running and they're getting away with it. Why should *I* get in trouble?

I've thought about that little scene in my head so often over the years. Each time I think about it, I feel like I learn something new. I definitely firmly believed that either everyone gets punished, or none should. For me to be singled out, in my view, was the height of injustice.  

Today though, I'm not so sure of that particular reasoning any more. Not saying i'm in a better place; but whenever that reasoning comes up in conversation, I'm reminded of that hallway episode, lol.

But I think thats two ways to look at it, and both are valid. On the one hand it merely condemns everyone. On the other hand we can hold apple accountable regardless of what others are doing. And in either case apple doesnt get a free pass (any more than al queda in that other example).

Lol, eye-opening school experiences... In the Irish equivalent of 'fourth grade', the rules of the school I was in were such that when walking to and from the yard for break, we were expected to do so in silence as to not disturb classes that were not on break. Well, one day we were coming back and a load of people were chatting away. The teacher waited till we were all seated in the class and then gave out to us and demanded to know who was talking. Being the impressionable youngster I was, I was one of the people who raised my hand... We weren't allowed to eat till the next break. People who talked an awful lot more didn't raise their hand and got to eat.

I credit that as the day I learned the importance of dishonesty

[microsoft windows]

The average person writes 30WPM, I can type 80-100... Even if the writing recognition worked perfectly, I could never imagine why I'd want to use it.

One of my Pocket PC's has writing recognition. I always got a kick of playing around with it for fun, but I've never had much practical reason to use it (the handwriting recognition).

[ricercar]

The Windows CE 2.x handwriting recognition in the Clio is good enough for realtime notes in a business meeting for my handwriting. Pocket PC is vastly underrated, was marketed poorly.

[jmpespxoreax]

People who dislike Apple products because they dislike Apple are almost as annoying as Apple fanboys... The merit of their products should be assessed on what they are, not who they are made by.

I disagree, mainly because that the company and product are closely tied together. When you buy something from a company, you're giving them your money, which contributes to the salary of the employees, their manufacturing equipment, etc. In the sense of "voting with your wallet", it makes sense to contribute / vote to the company which (in your eyes) is not engaged in bad practices, otherwise you are supporting them and their work, products, and practices.

I haven't heard anything first hand about Apple's internal culture, but if what was said here was true ( form over function, treating developers / engineers / designers poorly ), then that is one reason not to support them as a company. I also haven't read too much about the iPad, but other details that I heard about things like the walled garden App store culture, arbitrary app rejection, lack of USB ports, etc, seem like reasons not to buy one.

I think that it is fine not to buy a product because you dislike a company's reputation or practices. I also think that it is fine to like a product, but not buy it for the same reason.

[ch_123]

Yawn. The way I see it is that the product is good, or it is bad. If it is bad, it's not worthy of being bought. If it's good, it is worthy of being bought, in fact it could well be the best choice. What are you going to do - buy something you know to be inferior when you could have bought the best, but didn't because you don't like the guy who runs the company, or the other people who buy the same product?

Life is too short to be pulling a Mahatma Gandhi over a computer...

I also haven't read too much about the iPad, but other details that I heard about things like the walled garden App store culture, arbitrary app rejection, lack of USB ports, etc, seem like reasons not to buy one.

Why is that when, for example, Dell, leaves out important features in a product (which God knows they do all the time) people are like "Lol, silly old Dell!", but when Apple does it, it's suddenly some kind of gigantic conspiracy?

[quadibloc]

People who dislike Apple products because they dislike Apple are almost as annoying as Apple fanboys... The merit of their products should be assessed on what they are, not who they are made by.

That is a generally valid principle.

If it was a matter of like/dislike towards the manufacturer, I suppose I would like Microsoft even less than Apple.

Still, Apple has a history of making a certain kind of product. Good quality, but at a higher price than usual even for that level of quality. That already says "not for me" most of the time.

But the big issue is how the Macintosh worked with a smaller pool of software, and a selected and controlled pool of hardware. That directly ties in to usefulness.

Of course, the Intel Mac with Boot Camp changed that. It used to be that you had to buy a new computer to switch to a Macintosh, but you could buy Windows 3.1 to install on the MS-DOS computer you already had. Now, the Macintosh has the advantage that it is the computer that can run both Windows and Mac software on one box for the extra price of a copy of Windows.

And the iPhone and the iPad - and all the issues surrounding the AppStore.

This isn't about some animus I have towards Steve Jobs. If I buy a product, I want to be in control of it, and I want to be able to use it to the fullest. I can accept that in some contexts, like a video game console or a cell phone, there will be tie-ins from every supplier. But I will want the most freedom I can get, and unpredictable changes of policy will concern me greatly.

Bottom line: Apple is a company with a history of making products that are deficient in one crucial aspect of usability and value from my perspective.

[ricercar]

I read a story that some Nazi General fired a British Sten or Walther handgun while standing behind Hitler, just to demonstrate the quiet that German Engineering had yet to achieve with the Luger. The demonstration was ignored, because the Fuhrer refused to play catch up to anyone (... except the Russians, apparently. No wait, that was Napoleon).

[ironman31]

Since when does apple have anything to do with topre....?

(besides putting a hhkb on top of a mac book keyboard)

[spolia optima]

even if it means me taking a chubby, I will suck it up!

[ironman31]

yeah, I get on after work and see a couple pages have gone by with apple as the main subject, I guess I got what I needed out of this thread though. I'll most likely get the 86u when elitekeyboards starts carrying them.

[hyperlinked]

WTF, how the Welly did a thread with such a great title turn into another iPad and therefore Apple is evil smashfest? Boooring repetitive verbal masturbation on the part of the ranter. Totally old **** with perfume on it. I'm going to go throw up now.

[wellington1869]

WTF, how the Welly did a thread with such a great title turn into another iPad and therefore Apple is evil smashfest? Boooring repetitive verbal masturbation on the part of the ranter. Totally old **** with perfume on it. I'm going to go throw up now.

Lol, dude, not worth throwing up over. Just talkin'. I wont hold it against you if you love apple, a lot of my friends are apple fiends. (Others are religious in a different way ;-D  Oh ok i'll stop .

[wellington1869]

So fine, equal opportunity -- while you caress your ipads, I will wax poetic a bit more on the marvel that is my new (used) HP convertible tablet PC.

Just got done finishing the win7 install on it (originally shipped with XP) and win7 found all the drivers anyway but for one. Pretty amazing given there arent supposed to be any win7 drivers for this machine. A little googling and found the last one. Loaded up with office and onenote and windows journal. Going to try out Inkseine next.

Its very, very cool. I didnt think i'd like the 12" screen (i'm totally used to 14") but its so bright and the wide angle makes it a real pleasure to work with. Not minding the smaller size that much yet.

Might make the tablet my daily driver. Its liquid. Everything slides gently around the screen and glows and pulsates at me -- and just works.

[ironman31]

Hyperlinked, I'm diggin your sig

[hyperlinked]

I wont hold it against you if you love apple, a lot of my friends are apple fiends.

The Mac is my main computing platform, but I'm not a fiend. There's a big difference between being a fanboi whose panties get up in a bunch when anything bad is said of the Apple and someone who's just sick of the carbon copy same Apple anti-fanboi rant again and again. We already went through this in about a dozen other threads and I think both of us have posted to half of them. It'd be different if we had a whole different set of characters in this thread, but it's a lot of the same suspects.

Hyperlinked, I'm diggin your sig

Sad to say that I'm still a **** myself. Maybe later this year I'll graduate to the cool circle.

[wellington1869]

Just some responses to ch, who took the time to respond, after all, which I appreciate.

To me, the logical conclusion of all this talk is to become a hermit and live off your immediate surroundings in a non-destructive way. However, I don't see many others doing that, so I don't see why I should either.

we cant all be gandhi, but that doesnt mean we have to throw morality entirely to the wind either. Its perfectly legit to consider a company's history and culture, whichever side you're on. Dont have to go to extremes about it, in either direction. Apple's track record does matter to me, so does Michael Dell's, by the way, though apple is going to eat his lunch too, the way things are headed.

Just the other day it was announced that Google killed apps on their Android market. Yeah, you know, that one that is meant to be a shining beacon of liberty...

actually google is a great counterpoint to apple. Google pulled out of china to protest the forced censorship of their search. That was an extraordinarily courageous defense of free speech and democracy in the face of immense financial and political risk. And it contrasts quite sharply with apple's cooperation with chinese censorship. [Even now in google's ongoing negotiations with China, nothing may come of the talks because google continues to insist on leaving the link to the hong kong google page (totally uncensored) RIGHT ON the main china search page. So they're working to find a solution that wont leave free information twisting in the wind, like apple did.]

Keep in mind, we're not picking on apple for the hell of it. yahoo had its share of complicity with the chinese government, for instance. The issue here isnt just that apple wont get a free pass just because others have done it -- and not all have. The issue is that apple projects an image of such purity of character (which most apple fiends totally swallow) -- remember this, for instance? Oh the hypocrisy, the irony. Thats what adds to the apple problem here. Huge levels of blatant hypocrisy, that the apple consumer is expected to meekly swallow whole.

I don't think that companies trying to control the quality of their platform is a bad thing. Look no further than Windows to see what happens when it goes horribly wrong...

Not talking about 'quality control'. Talking about "1984" style supression of information. You know, the kind apple desperately wants people to think its against.

if you'll pardon my saying so, i'm surprised that you think this is merely about 'quality control'.  Maybe you genuinely havent heard how bad things have gotten.
A sampling... for your perusing pleasure. I'm not piling on links for the hell of it; you can click or not click on each as you see fit. But here are some examples of what I'm talking about.

Apple's iPad could be game-changer in digital-media censorship - washington post

Apple demands a developer removes Android references from iPhone app

Apple BANS Apps That Criticize Public Figures

Apple censorship at issue on its support forums, again -- guardian.co.uk

Daring Fireball: Ninjawords: iPhone Dictionary, Censored by Apple

Is Apple Now Censoring Tom's Hardware? - Article-Discussions - DenGuru

Apple Censorship: This Time It's Displays : - Review Tom's Hardware

Apple Thinks This Tiger Woods Cartoon Is Too Mean For Your iPhone

Apple Gestapo: How Apple Hunts Down Leaks - Apple Worldwide Loyalty Team - Gizmodo

Apple App Store Bans Pulitzer-Winning Satirist for Satire - Wired.com

IPad Apps Could Put Apple in Charge of the News - Wired.com
"Publishers should think twice before worshipping the iPad as the future platform for magazines and newspapers. That is, if they value their independence from an often-capricious corporate gatekeeper."

Apple going after the 'fake steve jobs' comedian

Apple's Censorship is Getting Ridiculous

Outraged Reznor (from Nine Inch Nails) criticizes Apple censorship | TG Daily

Apple Faces Federal Monopoly Suit

iPhone developer EULA turns programmers into serfs - Boing Boing

Steve Jobs Hating Again on Us c# Developers | Computer Science Schools

All Your Apps Are Belong to Apple: The iPhone Developer Program License Agreement


"The iPhone vision of the mobile Internet's future omits controversy, sex, and freedom, but includes strict limits on who can know what and who can say what. It's a sterile Disney-fied walled garden surrounded by sharp-toothed lawyers. The people who create the apps serve at the landlord's pleasure and fear his anger. I hate it. I hate it even though the iPhone hardware and software are great, because freedom's not just another word for anything, nor is it an optional ingredient."
--XML co-inventor Tim Bray


Like I said, apple isnt merely doing 'quality control', and I think its perfectly legitimate to think of all these moral questions when buying, with any company. Apple cant get a free pass any more than any other company. And throwing these concerns to the wind just because we cant get overnight perfection in the world is no solution at all.

[wellington1869]

There's a big difference between being a fanboi whose panties get up in a bunch when anything bad is said of the Apple and someone who's just sick of the carbon copy same Apple anti-fanboi rant again and again.

We're talking about much larger philosophical questions that CH (and Ricercar) brought up. Regarding corporate morality and consumer responsiblity, and the borders of each.  I (and a couple of other GH'ers above) took one position and they took the other. Nothing wrong with that, its a nice argument.  The OP had his question answered anyway (answer: yes, get a topre).

[quadibloc]

Well, the original topic of this thread was simple enough.  The OP felt badly because the mechanical keyboard he brought with him to school was making enough noise to distract other people, so he felt badly. But he would still like to use a keyboard with good tactile characteristics.

So, despite the expense, which is not inconsiderable to him in his current financial position, he was wondering if he would have no alternative but to purchase a Topre keyboard.

Some rubber dome keyboards have decent tactile characteristics, though; and, as well, there are keyboards which use the "scissor-switch" mechanism found in laptop computers that have some tactile feel, despite short travel. However, my understanding is that keyboards like that are mainly made by one specific manufacturer - for the Macintosh.

[ch_123]

If you really want quiet, get one of those Apple keyboards.

Oh yes, I'm being serious.