Author Topic: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO  (Read 6117 times)

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Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #50 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 16:02:07 »
I was thinking about getting a topre, but I do not like the feel of rubber domes. I know they're good and all, but still...

Which part of Rubber Domes don't you like? 

Generally what people dislike is:  Instability.  The squishy uneven bottom out feeling.  The fact that you have to hit bottom for actuation.  Plus generally they're cheaply made in general so they feel meh...

So if you remove all of those, which part do you hate?

Do you like smooth MX switches?  What if you had one smoother than MX?  More stability?  More reliability?  Doesn't require bottoming out so responsiveness is quick.  No chance of chatter either. 

I'm not saying Topre is for everyone....MX switches are also very nice..but what people dislike about Rubber Domes tends to be what they're used to which is just a cheap iffy keyboard.

I haven't felt any MX switches that I would describe as particularly smooth. The linears are solidy mediocre though, in that regard.

You can get some pretty smooth feeling MX switches...Ones that have been used a lot or with lube (or both).  They're not as smooth as Topre but they're still pretty nice...

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #51 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 16:08:41 »
You can get some pretty smooth feeling MX switches...Ones that have been used a lot or with lube (or both).  They're not as smooth as Topre but they're still pretty nice...

I have a Cherry MX red K70 I have used with my gaming rig for 6 or 7 years now. The switches still don't feel as nice as brand new Kailh box reds, and I haven't even tried the fancy modern boutique linears. I also don't bother with lubing anything either though. I see MX as the Honda Civic of switches. They do their jobs, and they do them well, there's just no polish or flair. The tactiles have a ... feeling, the linears are linear, and the clickies certainly click.

Offline cari66ean

  • Posts: 26
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #52 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 17:59:41 »
I was thinking about getting a topre, but I do not like the feel of rubber domes. I know they're good and all, but still...

Which part of Rubber Domes don't you like? 

Generally what people dislike is:  Instability.  The squishy uneven bottom out feeling.  The fact that you have to hit bottom for actuation.  Plus generally they're cheaply made in general so they feel meh...

So if you remove all of those, which part do you hate?

Do you like smooth MX switches?  What if you had one smoother than MX?  More stability?  More reliability?  Doesn't require bottoming out so responsiveness is quick.  No chance of chatter either. 

I'm not saying Topre is for everyone....MX switches are also very nice..but what people dislike about Rubber Domes tends to be what they're used to which is just a cheap iffy keyboard.

If only one could type on Topre without bottoming-out :D.

Jokes aside: if pressed slowly the stroke on the Topre definitely feels more consistent and stable than even 'boutique' lubed linear MX switches. Those do come very close in terms of smoothness, though there's still a difference when compared in slow-mo.

The simple design on those big round Topre stems/sliders simply provides more stability and consistency even when pressed in odd directions. The rectangular stem on the MX switches simply can't compete with that (though there is progress been made with the round stem Box switches). Then of course you have the stems sliding against the leafs to make the switch actuate and that will always provide a bit of inconsistency and at least a minimum amount of friction. But I'm fairly happy with the smooth MX linears that have popped up in recent times.

Offline Nuclear Nachos

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #53 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 18:10:49 »
I agree with some parts, and disagree with others but thats okay. Its your opinion, and i cant force you to change that. But one thing topre boards cant compete with for mx is variety. You can get mechanical keyboards for under $50 new sometimes, which is far cheaper than topre. They might not be the greatest yes, but look at topre offerings for under $75. You also have such a wide variety of keycaps (ik topre to mx sliders exist, but thats another part to increase the price of topre and you have to buy seperately), and the dozens upon dozen different switches, mx is just more universal. At the end of the day, its just opinion, some like mx reds over everything, its personal opinions.

Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #54 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 18:18:28 »
You can get some pretty smooth feeling MX switches...Ones that have been used a lot or with lube (or both).  They're not as smooth as Topre but they're still pretty nice...

I have a Cherry MX red K70 I have used with my gaming rig for 6 or 7 years now. The switches still don't feel as nice as brand new Kailh box reds, and I haven't even tried the fancy modern boutique linears. I also don't bother with lubing anything either though. I see MX as the Honda Civic of switches. They do their jobs, and they do them well, there's just no polish or flair. The tactiles have a ... feeling, the linears are linear, and the clickies certainly click.

MX to me is any of the Cherry and the clones..they're all the same thing just slight variations of the same switch...

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #55 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 19:04:30 »
You can get some pretty smooth feeling MX switches...Ones that have been used a lot or with lube (or both).  They're not as smooth as Topre but they're still pretty nice...

I have a Cherry MX red K70 I have used with my gaming rig for 6 or 7 years now. The switches still don't feel as nice as brand new Kailh box reds, and I haven't even tried the fancy modern boutique linears. I also don't bother with lubing anything either though. I see MX as the Honda Civic of switches. They do their jobs, and they do them well, there's just no polish or flair. The tactiles have a ... feeling, the linears are linear, and the clickies certainly click.

MX to me is any of the Cherry and the clones..they're all the same thing just slight variations of the same switch...

Box switches aren't Cherry clones. You're of the opinion that Topre is smoother than the smoothest of the smooth boutique switches then? Just curious, haven't gotten to try Topre.

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #56 on: Thu, 30 April 2020, 20:25:41 »
Topre's pretty darn smooth. Lubed Topre is even better.

Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #57 on: Fri, 01 May 2020, 09:00:17 »
I was thinking about getting a topre, but I do not like the feel of rubber domes. I know they're good and all, but still...

Which part of Rubber Domes don't you like? 

Generally what people dislike is:  Instability.  The squishy uneven bottom out feeling.  The fact that you have to hit bottom for actuation.  Plus generally they're cheaply made in general so they feel meh...

So if you remove all of those, which part do you hate?

Do you like smooth MX switches?  What if you had one smoother than MX?  More stability?  More reliability?  Doesn't require bottoming out so responsiveness is quick.  No chance of chatter either. 

I'm not saying Topre is for everyone....MX switches are also very nice..but what people dislike about Rubber Domes tends to be what they're used to which is just a cheap iffy keyboard.

If only one could type on Topre without bottoming-out :D.

Jokes aside: if pressed slowly the stroke on the Topre definitely feels more consistent and stable than even 'boutique' lubed linear MX switches. Those do come very close in terms of smoothness, though there's still a difference when compared in slow-mo.

The simple design on those big round Topre stems/sliders simply provides more stability and consistency even when pressed in odd directions. The rectangular stem on the MX switches simply can't compete with that (though there is progress been made with the round stem Box switches). Then of course you have the stems sliding against the leafs to make the switch actuate and that will always provide a bit of inconsistency and at least a minimum amount of friction. But I'm fairly happy with the smooth MX linears that have popped up in recent times.

Who cares what it feels like in slo mo?  I mean, I get it...people nit pick on every detail but how often are you using a keyboard where you press it down slowly and that feel actually matters?  People have this same complaint about MX Browns..they just can't get that slow press feeling out of their head even though that's not how it feels during use.

I don't get the Topre joke..you'd never NOT want to bottom out with Topre...Its all about the thock.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #58 on: Fri, 01 May 2020, 09:20:14 »
I was thinking about getting a topre, but I do not like the feel of rubber domes. I know they're good and all, but still...

Which part of Rubber Domes don't you like? 

Generally what people dislike is:  Instability.  The squishy uneven bottom out feeling.  The fact that you have to hit bottom for actuation.  Plus generally they're cheaply made in general so they feel meh...

So if you remove all of those, which part do you hate?

Do you like smooth MX switches?  What if you had one smoother than MX?  More stability?  More reliability?  Doesn't require bottoming out so responsiveness is quick.  No chance of chatter either. 

I'm not saying Topre is for everyone....MX switches are also very nice..but what people dislike about Rubber Domes tends to be what they're used to which is just a cheap iffy keyboard.

If only one could type on Topre without bottoming-out :D.

Jokes aside: if pressed slowly the stroke on the Topre definitely feels more consistent and stable than even 'boutique' lubed linear MX switches. Those do come very close in terms of smoothness, though there's still a difference when compared in slow-mo.

The simple design on those big round Topre stems/sliders simply provides more stability and consistency even when pressed in odd directions. The rectangular stem on the MX switches simply can't compete with that (though there is progress been made with the round stem Box switches). Then of course you have the stems sliding against the leafs to make the switch actuate and that will always provide a bit of inconsistency and at least a minimum amount of friction. But I'm fairly happy with the smooth MX linears that have popped up in recent times.

Who cares what it feels like in slo mo?  I mean, I get it...people nit pick on every detail but how often are you using a keyboard where you press it down slowly and that feel actually matters?  People have this same complaint about MX Browns..they just can't get that slow press feeling out of their head even though that's not how it feels during use.

I don't get the Topre joke..you'd never NOT want to bottom out with Topre...Its all about the thock.

I agree in theory. I do think a lot of people probably do ignore how an actual real-world press feels vs their negative impression of a very slow/careful press. I still say browns feel terrible either way, they just feel a lot less terrible with actual presses than slow and careful nitpicking. Personal opinion.

Offline cari66ean

  • Posts: 26
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #59 on: Fri, 01 May 2020, 10:52:17 »
I was thinking about getting a topre, but I do not like the feel of rubber domes. I know they're good and all, but still...

Which part of Rubber Domes don't you like? 

Generally what people dislike is:  Instability.  The squishy uneven bottom out feeling.  The fact that you have to hit bottom for actuation.  Plus generally they're cheaply made in general so they feel meh...

So if you remove all of those, which part do you hate?

Do you like smooth MX switches?  What if you had one smoother than MX?  More stability?  More reliability?  Doesn't require bottoming out so responsiveness is quick.  No chance of chatter either. 

I'm not saying Topre is for everyone....MX switches are also very nice..but what people dislike about Rubber Domes tends to be what they're used to which is just a cheap iffy keyboard.

If only one could type on Topre without bottoming-out :D.

Jokes aside: if pressed slowly the stroke on the Topre definitely feels more consistent and stable than even 'boutique' lubed linear MX switches. Those do come very close in terms of smoothness, though there's still a difference when compared in slow-mo.

The simple design on those big round Topre stems/sliders simply provides more stability and consistency even when pressed in odd directions. The rectangular stem on the MX switches simply can't compete with that (though there is progress been made with the round stem Box switches). Then of course you have the stems sliding against the leafs to make the switch actuate and that will always provide a bit of inconsistency and at least a minimum amount of friction. But I'm fairly happy with the smooth MX linears that have popped up in recent times.

Who cares what it feels like in slo mo?  I mean, I get it...people nit pick on every detail but how often are you using a keyboard where you press it down slowly and that feel actually matters?  People have this same complaint about MX Browns..they just can't get that slow press feeling out of their head even though that's not how it feels during use.

I don't get the Topre joke..you'd never NOT want to bottom out with Topre...Its all about the thock.

Man you're surely a nice guy, you just gotta stop these strawman arguments, reading bs on purpose into what others said and then getting all smart-a$$ over it.

I didn't nit pick. As I mentioned like a hundred times already I personally even prefer smooth MX linears, I just gave credit where credit is due. In practice the boutique MX switches do come very close and I did mention that.

Regarding that "Topre joke"... you mentioned it as one of the pros that you don't have to bottom-out to actuate the switch. I joked about that because you can't actually _not_ bottom them out. And yes, personally: I don't like the feeling of a hard bottoming-out like on Topre, despite it sounding nice. Also I can barely hear the thock on my HHKB over the key rattle lol.


I was thinking about getting a topre, but I do not like the feel of rubber domes. I know they're good and all, but still...

Which part of Rubber Domes don't you like? 

Generally what people dislike is:  Instability.  The squishy uneven bottom out feeling.  The fact that you have to hit bottom for actuation.  Plus generally they're cheaply made in general so they feel meh...

So if you remove all of those, which part do you hate?

Do you like smooth MX switches?  What if you had one smoother than MX?  More stability?  More reliability?  Doesn't require bottoming out so responsiveness is quick.  No chance of chatter either. 

I'm not saying Topre is for everyone....MX switches are also very nice..but what people dislike about Rubber Domes tends to be what they're used to which is just a cheap iffy keyboard.

If only one could type on Topre without bottoming-out :D.

Jokes aside: if pressed slowly the stroke on the Topre definitely feels more consistent and stable than even 'boutique' lubed linear MX switches. Those do come very close in terms of smoothness, though there's still a difference when compared in slow-mo.

The simple design on those big round Topre stems/sliders simply provides more stability and consistency even when pressed in odd directions. The rectangular stem on the MX switches simply can't compete with that (though there is progress been made with the round stem Box switches). Then of course you have the stems sliding against the leafs to make the switch actuate and that will always provide a bit of inconsistency and at least a minimum amount of friction. But I'm fairly happy with the smooth MX linears that have popped up in recent times.

Who cares what it feels like in slo mo?  I mean, I get it...people nit pick on every detail but how often are you using a keyboard where you press it down slowly and that feel actually matters?  People have this same complaint about MX Browns..they just can't get that slow press feeling out of their head even though that's not how it feels during use.

I don't get the Topre joke..you'd never NOT want to bottom out with Topre...Its all about the thock.

I agree in theory. I do think a lot of people probably do ignore how an actual real-world press feels vs their negative impression of a very slow/careful press. I still say browns feel terrible either way, they just feel a lot less terrible with actual presses than slow and careful nitpicking. Personal opinion.

Yeah... I'd say they are a tad smoother and consistent, especially when pressed in odd angles. It's probably due to that big round stem/slider compared to the rectangular MX stem and the lack of the stem having to slide on the leaf for actuation. Though that's compared to lubed Tealios, I don't have the H1 and Tangerines yet.

Still in practice when typing the difference is negligible and the the overall feel of the stroke is just so very very different to MX. The tactile bump is starting from 0 and rising in a sine like wave. Once you reach your peak it's getting into a free fall that makes you bottom out hard - if you want to or not. I personally don't like it despite having used my HHKB for around 10 years between 2007 and 2017.  Though from the force curves of the lighter 30g Topres I'd probably really enjoy those, especially combined with a spring to increase the force towards the bottom as discussed earlier in this thread.
« Last Edit: Fri, 01 May 2020, 11:06:26 by cari66ean »

Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #60 on: Fri, 01 May 2020, 17:17:30 »

Man you're surely a nice guy, you just gotta stop these strawman arguments, reading bs on purpose into what others said and then getting all smart-a$$ over it.

I didn't nit pick. As I mentioned like a hundred times already I personally even prefer smooth MX linears, I just gave credit where credit is due. In practice the boutique MX switches do come very close and I did mention that.

I'm not making a strawman argument...You made some comments and I corrected them.  Read your post as if you didn't write it.  What does it sound like?  And btw, the nitpicking is not just you, it is tons of other people that have done the same thing. 

Point is, you and many others, have made this observation about slowly pressing a key..but it serves no purpose because that isn't how they're used.  Granted, you can still completely dislike a switch as a result and that's fine but I'd rather measure something useful, such as when I'm using it.  If a switch in slo mo was the worst feeling switch ever, but the best when using it, would you like it?  I don't think that's possible but lets say it is.  The answer to me would be yes.  For some the answer would be no - They could never get over the feel of the switch in slo mo even though they love it in usage...Not saying that's you, saying that some people. 


Regarding that "Topre joke"... you mentioned it as one of the pros that you don't have to bottom-out to actuate the switch. I joked about that because you can't actually _not_ bottom them out. And yes, personally: I don't like the feeling of a hard bottoming-out like on Topre, despite it sounding nice. Also I can barely hear the thock on my HHKB over the key rattle lol.

Not bottoming out on them to actuate IS an advantage but you don't seem to understand why.  First off, because it is more responsive.  If you change the actuation to bottom out or with APC try a lower actuation level (deeper) then you'll see, it feels sluggish.  You'll eventually get used to it but that responsiveness is a bonus to many mech switches and one reason I like Topre.  The other is, that responsiveness is because it is electro capacitive which also means it will be reliable.  It also means reset and actuation are at the same point which may not mean anything to some but will for others.  And yes, very aware you can't stop yourself from bottoming out..I was one of the first people to call out people's BS when they claim they can.  30/35g Topre, sure, that's possible although hardly worth it.  45g is just not possible without typing at such a stupidly slow rate it isn't worth it. 

If you can't hear the thock on a HHKB that would be weird....it has the loudest thock out of all Topre keyboards..and one of the reasons people love it.  Other than the spacebar stabilizer rattling, there isn't too much rattling going on..there are little raindrop noises but honestly, that's one of the best parts of that keyboard for a lot of people.  It is also one reason why a good number of people prefer the standard HHKB to the Type-S..specifically because they love the sound. 


Though from the force curves of the lighter 30g Topres I'd probably really enjoy those, especially combined with a spring to increase the force towards the bottom as discussed earlier in this thread.

Try it out then..or get a NIZ..those are like 35g..you can put a heavy spring on there or put two of the springs they've included in there.  They make the switch feel linear (as I've already told you) and harder to bottom out because of all the resistance. 

Offline Leslieann

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #61 on: Fri, 01 May 2020, 21:53:10 »
Who cares what it feels like in slo mo?  I mean, I get it...people nit pick on every detail but how often are you using a keyboard where you press it down slowly and that feel actually matters?

It does matter.

You are correct in that it needs to feel good while fast and what can feel good slow may not feel good fast, but the switch that feels good doing both is going to be the one you prefer. You may not feel it consciously but you might subconsciously, fingers are extremely sensitive, there's a reason craftsmen use their fingers to check the surface of things and not just their eyes or even tools.

Are we reaching a point of diminishing returns, absolutely, but at the same time that should be celebrated. It wasn't long ago we only had a handful of switch options, now we have so many we can debate the finer points of them.
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Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #62 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 00:25:09 »
Who cares what it feels like in slo mo?  I mean, I get it...people nit pick on every detail but how often are you using a keyboard where you press it down slowly and that feel actually matters?

It does matter.

You are correct in that it needs to feel good while fast and what can feel good slow may not feel good fast, but the switch that feels good doing both is going to be the one you prefer. You may not feel it consciously but you might subconsciously, fingers are extremely sensitive, there's a reason craftsmen use their fingers to check the surface of things and not just their eyes or even tools.

Are we reaching a point of diminishing returns, absolutely, but at the same time that should be celebrated. It wasn't long ago we only had a handful of switch options, now we have so many we can debate the finer points of them.

Sensitive fingers have nothing to do whether it feels bad to you subconsciously...  It either feels good typing normally or it doesn't.  Just because it feels bad in slo mo doesn't mean it'll feel bad typing normally.   It could be because it feels bad in slo mo subconsciously you dislike the switch..That's perfectly OK. 

If you're saying your sensitive fingers are feeling something is off under normal conditions (which is very valid) then yes, of course, that's not the right switch for you.  But it is hardly the case that a switch feels good but at the same time does not.    It might feel decent but you feel that something is off..that is still off.  You know how you test this?  Blind.  Reason why people don't do blind tests?  Because they start realizing that they're wrong about what they prefer. 

When I say it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter to someone that is looking at the usage of the device.  You don't subconsciously hate it because you can actually feel anything wrong (as your example), you subconsciously hate it because you can't get it out of your head you dislike how it feels in slo mo.

It is 100% the same as saying, the keyboard doesn't feel right because there is a small ink mark on the side of the keyboard.  You might be bothered by that mark, you might dislike the keyboard as a result...but it isn't impacting your normal typing. 

Again, if you dislike how the switch feels in slo mo...you don't have to like it.  But if you're never using it like that what does it matter?  Would you give up a switch you love in normal usage because you hate it in slo mo?  Or would you rather go with a switch you like a bit less in regular usage because you enjoy how it feels in slo mo?  For me, it is the former 100% of the time..for others it isn't but I think people need to just be honest with themselves about it.  What you wrote was some sort of justification as if they can really feel it is bad in normal conditions subconsciously but they love it consciously and that's just not the case. 

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #63 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 00:36:12 »
Who cares what it feels like in slo mo?  I mean, I get it...people nit pick on every detail but how often are you using a keyboard where you press it down slowly and that feel actually matters?

It does matter.

You are correct in that it needs to feel good while fast and what can feel good slow may not feel good fast, but the switch that feels good doing both is going to be the one you prefer. You may not feel it consciously but you might subconsciously, fingers are extremely sensitive, there's a reason craftsmen use their fingers to check the surface of things and not just their eyes or even tools.

Are we reaching a point of diminishing returns, absolutely, but at the same time that should be celebrated. It wasn't long ago we only had a handful of switch options, now we have so many we can debate the finer points of them.

Sensitive fingers have nothing to do whether it feels bad to you subconsciously...  It either feels good typing normally or it doesn't.  Just because it feels bad in slo mo doesn't mean it'll feel bad typing normally.   It could be because it feels bad in slo mo subconsciously you dislike the switch..That's perfectly OK. 

If you're saying your sensitive fingers are feeling something is off under normal conditions (which is very valid) then yes, of course, that's not the right switch for you.  But it is hardly the case that a switch feels good but at the same time does not.    It might feel decent but you feel that something is off..that is still off.  You know how you test this?  Blind.  Reason why people don't do blind tests?  Because they start realizing that they're wrong about what they prefer. 

When I say it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter to someone that is looking at the usage of the device.  You don't subconsciously hate it because you can actually feel anything wrong (as your example), you subconsciously hate it because you can't get it out of your head you dislike how it feels in slo mo.

It is 100% the same as saying, the keyboard doesn't feel right because there is a small ink mark on the side of the keyboard.  You might be bothered by that mark, you might dislike the keyboard as a result...but it isn't impacting your normal typing. 

Again, if you dislike how the switch feels in slo mo...you don't have to like it.  But if you're never using it like that what does it matter?  Would you give up a switch you love in normal usage because you hate it in slo mo?  Or would you rather go with a switch you like a bit less in regular usage because you enjoy how it feels in slo mo?  For me, it is the former 100% of the time..for others it isn't but I think people need to just be honest with themselves about it.  What you wrote was some sort of justification as if they can really feel it is bad in normal conditions subconsciously but they love it consciously and that's just not the case.

I think what she's saying there is actually kind of the reverse of how you're interpreting it. I think the point being made is that if you type normally on a switch and don't like it, but can't put your finger on exactly why, then actuating the switch very slowly to try to feel it out in more detail may help to further define the characteristics that you dislike.

Going back to this, for the sake of it, I happened to have my only MX brown board within arm's reach, and I actually noticed once more that MX brown actually seems to have a perceptible tactile bump when I press the switch down very slowly. When I type normally on it, it just feels like varying degrees of grit ... just less gritty than when I press it slowly, so ... pros and cons for both? Maybe if I just typed on it at 5 wpm, like I'm stuck in a perpetual explosion scene in a Michael Bay movie, I would be able to consider them tactile.

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #64 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 01:06:41 »
I never understand why people take things personally. On the internet yet.

Topre is supposed to be the definitive typists keyboard. You are forced to bottom out. Bottoming out can cause severe injury. You think that does not hurt? Just wait...
I still love Topre. I do not have long to live. Putting things into perspective. For myself at least. To me "MX" means "any" cherry-alike switch as well.
Honestly these boutique switches have outdone a niche market than cherry themselves. Cherry never intended too. I bet if Cherry did so, they might just win this game.
Honestly, I like plain old lubed O-ringed blues! Those are their "typing" switches after all. Why type on for instance, Reds a gaming switch? To each their own.
Downside Blues are not office friendly unless you are the CEO.
There are no rights or wrongs. No need to argue. Just enjoy whatever you do.
Stop writing in forums and do something constructive with your Keeb.
Unfortunately I just physically cracked a Topre R2 case manhandling it. There goes $350. Oh well. I just take things lightly seeing as I am going to die. that is actually more serious in the scheme of things.
I do not request pity. I am just stating a fact.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #65 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 01:40:25 »
I never understand why people take things personally. On the internet yet.

Topre is supposed to be the definitive typists keyboard. You are forced to bottom out. Bottoming out can cause severe injury. You think that does not hurt? Just wait...
I still love Topre. I do not have long to live. Putting things into perspective. For myself at least. To me "MX" means "any" cherry-alike switch as well.
Honestly these boutique switches have outdone a niche market than cherry themselves. Cherry never intended too. I bet if Cherry did so, they might just win this game.
Honestly, I like plain old lubed O-ringed blues! Those are their "typing" switches after all. Why type on for instance, Reds a gaming switch? To each their own.
Downside Blues are not office friendly unless you are the CEO.
There are no rights or wrongs. No need to argue. Just enjoy whatever you do.
Stop writing in forums and do something constructive with your Keeb.
Unfortunately I just physically cracked a Topre R2 case manhandling it. There goes $350. Oh well. I just take things lightly seeing as I am going to die. that is actually more serious in the scheme of things.
I do not request pity. I am just stating a fact.

I am in agreement on not taking things personally.

I don't think there's a definitive anything keyboard, myself.

I love bottoming out, on thick steel and aluminum plates with undampened switches no less.

For me, MX means MX, the clones are MX clones, and there are newer switches that are neither even though they're compatible with the same plates, boards, and caps.

I don't think Cherry even cares about playing that game, much less winning it. They don't need to.

I very slightly prefer MX blues to reds for typing these days, but only because blues are clicky, even if they're amongst the worst clicky switches I own, beating Futaba MA only because they don't decompose over time. They still don't feel, or sound, as nice as even those when they're working.

Blues are pretty quiet, nobody minds me using capacitive buckling spring in/near the libraries at work.

I don't think a keyboard should cost that much money if you can break the case with your bare hands, but to each their own.

You keep mentioning how you've got some terminal illness, if that's the case, shouldn't you be spending time with family, etc?

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1462
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #66 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 02:00:33 »
I think what she's saying there is actually kind of the reverse of how you're interpreting it. I think the point being made is that if you type normally on a switch and don't like it, but can't put your finger on exactly why, then actuating the switch very slowly to try to feel it out in more detail may help to further define the characteristics that you dislike.

But if you don't like it when typing on it normally then you don't like it.  You might investigate further why you think you don't like it but it doesn't change the fact that you don't like it.

The point I was making (since I made the point originally) was that if you type on it normally and you like it then pressing it in slo mo doesn't matter.  How it feels in slo mo doesn't change whether you like/dislike it in normal operations.  It might impact how you feel about the switch in general but that's psychological, not based on your normal usage.  Blind testing is pretty good for something like this. 

But look, if you dislike/like a switch for whatever reason that's your own personal preference which is why I said.

If there was a switch I loved during normal usage but hated in slo mo vs. a switch I liked during normal usage but loved in slow mo, which would I pick?  The former.  The latter might have "more points" it might be mentally easier to accept.  But ultimately I care about how a switch feels when I use it, not how it feels when I press it in a way I'll never use.

Offline cari66ean

  • Posts: 26
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #67 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 05:50:49 »

Man you're surely a nice guy, you just gotta stop these strawman arguments, reading bs on purpose into what others said and then getting all smart-a$$ over it.

I didn't nit pick. As I mentioned like a hundred times already I personally even prefer smooth MX linears, I just gave credit where credit is due. In practice the boutique MX switches do come very close and I did mention that.

I'm not making a strawman argument...You made some comments and I corrected them.  Read your post as if you didn't write it.  What does it sound like?  And btw, the nitpicking is not just you, it is tons of other people that have done the same thing. 

Point is, you and many others, have made this observation about slowly pressing a key..but it serves no purpose because that isn't how they're used.  Granted, you can still completely dislike a switch as a result and that's fine but I'd rather measure something useful, such as when I'm using it.  If a switch in slo mo was the worst feeling switch ever, but the best when using it, would you like it?  I don't think that's possible but lets say it is.  The answer to me would be yes.  For some the answer would be no - They could never get over the feel of the switch in slo mo even though they love it in usage...Not saying that's you, saying that some people. 

Yes you are arguing against something I haven't said and that wasn't my point. My point was exactly that: when comparing them at typing speeds lubed boutique MX feel pretty much as smooth as Topre. It's just my observation that if you press them very slowly you are able to realize that MX is not quite as consistent and smooth especially when pressed in odd angles and that the stem is touching the leaf.

That's just an observation anybody is allowed to make, even if it bears no significance on actual usage, as mentioned just before that.

So don't quote me as if I said Topre > MX in real usage because when you press slowly bla bla. I didn't.

Regarding that "Topre joke"... you mentioned it as one of the pros that you don't have to bottom-out to actuate the switch. I joked about that because you can't actually _not_ bottom them out. And yes, personally: I don't like the feeling of a hard bottoming-out like on Topre, despite it sounding nice. Also I can barely hear the thock on my HHKB over the key rattle lol.

Not bottoming out on them to actuate IS an advantage but you don't seem to understand why.  First off, because it is more responsive.  If you change the actuation to bottom out or with APC try a lower actuation level (deeper) then you'll see, it feels sluggish.  You'll eventually get used to it but that responsiveness is a bonus to many mech switches and one reason I like Topre.  The other is, that responsiveness is because it is electro capacitive which also means it will be reliable.  It also means reset and actuation are at the same point which may not mean anything to some but will for others.  And yes, very aware you can't stop yourself from bottoming out..I was one of the first people to call out people's BS when they claim they can.  30/35g Topre, sure, that's possible although hardly worth it.  45g is just not possible without typing at such a stupidly slow rate it isn't worth it. 

You see... you are again arguing and insinuating I don't understand something, even though that wasn't the point I was making. Classic strawman again, and I'm not arguing against the responsiveness. It was simply a f*cking JOKE which fit the moment, that you cannot not bottom-out Topre anyway.

If you can't hear the thock on a HHKB that would be weird....it has the loudest thock out of all Topre keyboards..and one of the reasons people love it.  Other than the spacebar stabilizer rattling, there isn't too much rattling going on..there are little raindrop noises but honestly, that's one of the best parts of that keyboard for a lot of people.  It is also one reason why a good number of people prefer the standard HHKB to the Type-S..specifically because they love the sound. 


Though from the force curves of the lighter 30g Topres I'd probably really enjoy those, especially combined with a spring to increase the force towards the bottom as discussed earlier in this thread.

Try it out then..or get a NIZ..those are like 35g..you can put a heavy spring on there or put two of the springs they've included in there.  They make the switch feel linear (as I've already told you) and harder to bottom out because of all the resistance.

That was also not to be taken so literally. You did notice the "lol" in the "Also I can barely hear the thock on my HHKB over the key rattle lol". I exaggerated it but yes the key rattle on the now 12yr old HHBK2 Pro is very noticeable. Of course it's not louder than the "thock" itself, which is also very low pitched while the key rattle is high pitched. Nonetheless the HHKB2 key rattle when typing normally is way louder than bottoming-out my glass-fiber plate (PCB) mounted lubed Tealios.

As much as I'm sure I'd enjoy the 35g NIZ Topres, especially with the springs as we already discussed, I don't think I'll go down that road for now. Lubed high-quality MX linears are smooth and nice enough for me and I vastly prefer split ergo keyboards over traditional ones and there's just no going back for me.

Offline SenhorHoshino

  • Posts: 7
  • Location: Portugal
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #68 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 11:58:39 »
This thread goes like a complete 180 pahahah

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1462
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #69 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 14:47:54 »
Yes you are arguing against something I haven't said and that wasn't my point. My point was exactly that: when comparing them at typing speeds lubed boutique MX feel pretty much as smooth as Topre. It's just my observation that if you press them very slowly you are able to realize that MX is not quite as consistent and smooth especially when pressed in odd angles and that the stem is touching the leaf.

That's just an observation anybody is allowed to make, even if it bears no significance on actual usage, as mentioned just before that.

OK.  So I misunderstood what you were trying to say.  So what you were talking about had no significance on the conversation, you just added some extra observation just because...Fair enough.  It doesn't read like that but if that is your point, my apologies, you weren't making that comparison. 

You see... you are again arguing and insinuating I don't understand something, even though that wasn't the point I was making. Classic strawman again, and I'm not arguing against the responsiveness. It was simply a f*cking JOKE which fit the moment, that you cannot not bottom-out Topre anyway.

You say these are a strawman but you said it...I didn't. 

Quote from: cari66ean
if pressed slowly the stroke on the Topre definitely feels more consistent and stable than even 'boutique' lubed linear MX switches. Those do come very close in terms of smoothness, though there's still a difference when compared in slow-mo.

You mention nothing of normal usage...So either you think you're communicating an idea and aren't..or you're changing your mind.  It isn't a strawman, you wrote it.  Maybe what you meant to say is in your head and didn't come out.  Maybe you didn't type it out and thought you did.  But it isn't a strawman.  I'm not comparing anything you didn't actually say/write.  I could be comparing something you didn't intend to write or mean but I can't read your mind. 

Here's more fuel to the argument..

Quote from: cari66ean
I do imagine them being quite amazing though when spring swapped to heavier springs that prevent you from bottoming out
To which you said you were talking about an extra external spring..but based on this quote, you weren't.  You're changing your argument now that you've been taught something but just admit, you didn't know.  Or you just didn't write what you intended to write, but how would I know that?  I should just assume you're more knowledgeable?  And when typo talked about the internal spring you didn't correct him there either.  Seriously, you didn't know what you were talking about with the spring or with the weight or how it feels or with what adding another spring will do...You're not going to learn anything if you insist you know it all already and can't even admit when you were wrong.  Either you wrote it wrong or you were wrong.  Only you know what the answer to that is but don't act as if this is something I'm making up.   

Also I can barely hear the thock on my HHKB over the key rattle lol". I exaggerated it but yes the key rattle on the now 12yr old HHBK2 Pro is very noticeable. Of course it's not louder than the "thock" itself, which is also very low pitched while the key rattle is high pitched. Nonetheless the HHKB2 key rattle when typing normally is way louder than bottoming-out my glass-fiber plate (PCB) mounted lubed Tealios.

Oddly enough, I have a HHKB2 from 2007 and mine thocks fine...The rattle from the spacebar stabilizer can be fixed if you care to fix it....

« Last Edit: Sat, 02 May 2020, 14:52:31 by Polymer »

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1396
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #70 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 18:04:50 »
I think what she's saying there is actually kind of the reverse of how you're interpreting it. I think the point being made is that if you type normally on a switch and don't like it, but can't put your finger on exactly why, then actuating the switch very slowly to try to feel it out in more detail may help to further define the characteristics that you dislike.

But if you don't like it when typing on it normally then you don't like it.  You might investigate further why you think you don't like it but it doesn't change the fact that you don't like it.

The point I was making (since I made the point originally) was that if you type on it normally and you like it then pressing it in slo mo doesn't matter.  How it feels in slo mo doesn't change whether you like/dislike it in normal operations.  It might impact how you feel about the switch in general but that's psychological, not based on your normal usage.  Blind testing is pretty good for something like this. 

But look, if you dislike/like a switch for whatever reason that's your own personal preference which is why I said.

If there was a switch I loved during normal usage but hated in slo mo vs. a switch I liked during normal usage but loved in slow mo, which would I pick?  The former.  The latter might have "more points" it might be mentally easier to accept.  But ultimately I care about how a switch feels when I use it, not how it feels when I press it in a way I'll never use.

I think we went over this, but I'm pretty sure that no relatively reasonable person would make a determination about a switch based primarily on how that switch feels when pressed very slowly. The only reason people do that to begin with is to try to get a more in-depth feel for a switch's characteristics after already having typed on it. Personally, even in a tester, I try my best to try to get the angle and momentum as close as possible to on an actual keyboard when trying something out, since I know that even then it is still going to feel a little different once it is mounted in a real board.

Have you ever felt a switch that you liked when pressed normally, but did not when pressed slowly, or vice versa? I haven't. Your hypothetical scenario, of course, makes sense. My problem with it is its feasibility, and actual application to an appreciable proportion of typists even if it were feasible.

Oddly enough, I have a HHKB2 from 2007 and mine thocks fine...The rattle from the spacebar stabilizer can be fixed if you care to fix it....

Rattle just adds character/personality if you ask me.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 May 2020, 01:57:44 by Maledicted »

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1462
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #71 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 21:13:04 »

Have you ever felt a switch that you liked when pressed normally, but did not when pressed slowly, or vice versa? I haven't. Your hypothetical scenario, of course, makes sense. My problem with it is its feasibility, and actual application to an appreciable proportion of typists even if it were feasible.

Yes..I think Browns feel absolutely terrible when you press them slowly..but typing with them they feel great.  I actually think that's the most obvious example because not many people actually think browns feel very good when you press them slowly...but at least some of those people like them when using them.  This subject has been brought up before on this board which why I know it isn't just myself and for sure it isn't hypothetical so it is more than feasible...You haven't experienced it so you wouldn't think so.   It's application?  Seriously?  It is really simple.  The application is:  If you like the switch when typing with it normally, that's the part that matters.  If you like or dislike it when pressing it slowly, that part doesn't matter because that isn't how you use it. 

How is that not applicable to basically everyone? 

Now, not everyone will apply this because they can't get out of their own way.  It is the same reason why BLIND tests can be embarrassing for people because they might completely trash a switch only to realize they like it when not knowing what it is and just typing with it. 


Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1396
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #72 on: Sat, 02 May 2020, 22:19:28 »

Have you ever felt a switch that you liked when pressed normally, but did not when pressed slowly, or vice versa? I haven't. Your hypothetical scenario, of course, makes sense. My problem with it is its feasibility, and actual application to an appreciable proportion of typists even if it were feasible.

Yes..I think Browns feel absolutely terrible when you press them slowly..but typing with them they feel great.  I actually think that's the most obvious example because not many people actually think browns feel very good when you press them slowly...but at least some of those people like them when using them.  This subject has been brought up before on this board which why I know it isn't just myself and for sure it isn't hypothetical so it is more than feasible...You haven't experienced it so you wouldn't think so.   It's application?  Seriously?  It is really simple.  The application is:  If you like the switch when typing with it normally, that's the part that matters.  If you like or dislike it when pressing it slowly, that part doesn't matter because that isn't how you use it. 

How is that not applicable to basically everyone? 

Now, not everyone will apply this because they can't get out of their own way.  It is the same reason why BLIND tests can be embarrassing for people because they might completely trash a switch only to realize they like it when not knowing what it is and just typing with it.

I think you may be misunderstanding what I mean by application. My only point is that I don't think that the vast majority of people care about whether or not a switch feels 100% perfect to them when pressed slowly, and only use it as a way of trying to glean more information on the inherent characteristics of the switch.

I find it hard to believe the assumption that you seem to be making that everybody that hates MX brown feels that way simply because some, many, or even most, feel that they only feel terrible when pressed slowly, but not at realistic real-world speed, and that in spite of this perceived disparity, some appreciable portion of this subgroup lack the capacity for rational thought to such a significant degree that they write the switch off entirely based primarily on that.

I find it hard to believe that this very specific scenario, which assumes an extreme lack of logic on their parts, could apply to an appreciable portion of any switch's detractors. It sounds to me though that either of us asserting that either is the case is mostly speculation.

In short, what you consider to be the application, is what I agreed with you on from the start, but consider the scenario in which it applies to be, at best, very unlikely to apply to many people, if any.

I'm not sure how blind tests would accomplish anything in this regard. I have seen videos done by channels like Linus Tech Tips, where it isn't even a keyboard channel, and on a whim they do a blind test and the individual being tested seems to have no difficulty determining between authentic MX blue and some knockoffs, etc. If someone were so blinded by their impressions of how a switch feels when pressed slowly, then maybe? Kind of?

We just disagree entirely on the premise.
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 May 2020, 01:47:19 by Maledicted »

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1462
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #73 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 01:36:49 »
I think you may be misunderstanding what I mean by application. My only point is that I don't think that the vast majority of people care about whether or not a switch feels 100% perfect to them when pressed slowly, and only use it as a way of trying to glean more information on the inherent characteristics of the switch.
I don't think a majority do either.  I'm saying some people allow themselves to get caught up with that when in reality, if you like how a switch feels, you shouldn't care how it feels when it is pressed slowly. 

I find it hard to believe the assumption that you seem to be making that everybody that hates MX brown feels that way simply because some, many, or even most, feel that they only feel terrible when pressed slowly, but not at realistic real-world speed, and that in spite of this perceived disparity, some appreciable portion of this subgroup lack the capacity for rational thought to such a significant degree that they write the switch off entirely based primarily on that.
I didn't say that everybody that hates browns hates it because of that.  I'm saying that is a common complaint.  Some people just hate browns because they don't like how they feel when they type with them.   They might think they're too light.  They might think the tactile bump is too small..they might not like the overall weight or feel...Tons of reasons why they might not like them.  Some people don't like them because of how they feel when you press them slowly. 

I'm not sure how blind tests would accomplish anything in this regard. I have seen videos done by channels like Linux Tech Tips, where it isn't even a keyboard channel, and on a whim they do a blind test and the individual being tested seems to have no difficulty determining between authentic MX blue and some knockoffs, etc. If someone were so blinded by their impressions of how a switch feels when pressed slowly, then maybe? Kind of?
I saw the video where they tested with like 8 different people...most of them didn't know what switches were which and more than half didn't even pick their favorite switches. 
By blind I mean the person types with them blind without knowing what they are. 

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1396
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #74 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 02:55:53 »
I think you may be misunderstanding what I mean by application. My only point is that I don't think that the vast majority of people care about whether or not a switch feels 100% perfect to them when pressed slowly, and only use it as a way of trying to glean more information on the inherent characteristics of the switch.
I don't think a majority do either.  I'm saying some people allow themselves to get caught up with that when in reality, if you like how a switch feels, you shouldn't care how it feels when it is pressed slowly.

More specifically, what I mean to say is that the proportion of people who completely disregard real world use for something as trivial as any perceived negatives when feeling out a switch slowly to people who do not do so must be so inconsequential that this doesn't really matter much. In repeatedly emphasizing it as a problem, it makes it seem like you think that this is something at least relatively common. I can't imagine that that would be the case. If they're that dense, there's probably no changing it anyway.

I find it hard to believe the assumption that you seem to be making that everybody that hates MX brown feels that way simply because some, many, or even most, feel that they only feel terrible when pressed slowly, but not at realistic real-world speed, and that in spite of this perceived disparity, some appreciable portion of this subgroup lack the capacity for rational thought to such a significant degree that they write the switch off entirely based primarily on that.
I didn't say that everybody that hates browns hates it because of that.  I'm saying that is a common complaint.  Some people just hate browns because they don't like how they feel when they type with them.   They might think they're too light.  They might think the tactile bump is too small..they might not like the overall weight or feel...Tons of reasons why they might not like them.  Some people don't like them because of how they feel when you press them slowly. 

I think my response above pretty well covers my thoughts on this.

I'm not sure how blind tests would accomplish anything in this regard. I have seen videos done by channels like Linux Tech Tips, where it isn't even a keyboard channel, and on a whim they do a blind test and the individual being tested seems to have no difficulty determining between authentic MX blue and some knockoffs, etc. If someone were so blinded by their impressions of how a switch feels when pressed slowly, then maybe? Kind of?
I saw the video where they tested with like 8 different people...most of them didn't know what switches were which and more than half didn't even pick their favorite switches. 
By blind I mean the person types with them blind without knowing what they are.

I know what you mean, obviously. We must be talking about different videos. I saw it a long while back now, I believe it was a single person, and maybe also Linus after, taking a blind test. The first to go guessed most of them right, although I believe that most, if not all, were MX blues and clones, which I could imagine may be easier than something like tactiles of one specific type. I also imagine that most, if not all, clones of MX brown don't feel particularly great, but I haven't felt any straight clones myself. Even box browns were ... ok, I suppose?

What sort of blind test was this? Had they all used each of the switches for any appreciable period of time first? If not, that would obviously be a point of failure.

When you break it up into, say various MX variants, I imagine that almost anyone would still get relatively close to their preferred switch, since we're then talking about differences in type, weighting and dampening for the most part. Of the MX clones I have felt, within a given switch type, the differences have been too little to make even having a favorite really matter. I imagine that, personally, I could mix up MX blue with at least one or two of its clones, since Outemus feel better to me than the real deal and the others I have felt are close enough to MX to feasibly be mixed up. I know it would be close to impossible to mix up capacitive buckling spring with anything else, and nothing modern would feel like SKCM blues. I haven't felt all weird dead clickies, but I imagine SKCM whites would be the most likely, and possibly only, doppelganger.

I imagine that literally nobody could correctly identify every single switch they've felt before if there's a close analogue in the running, maybe not even every single switch they've typed on extensively, but it seems to me that we get back into the territory of bizarre what-if scenarios if we're talking about people writing a switch off entirely for XYZ and doing a 180 just because they couldn't see it the next time they felt it. That's my reason for thinking a blind test would be of dubious purpose in a case like that. It would still feel just as terrible, or great, unless you're also limiting it to normal presses only, which should (hopefully) realistically still affect the opinion of an insignificant number of people. It would more likely sway people who had an unshakable preconceived opinion of a switch before ever having felt it at all, and then disregarded their own senses entirely. I would still hope, in a community like this, that that would still be an extremely small number of people, but I could see it being significantly more than the group we've been talking about.

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1462
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #75 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 03:19:01 »
More specifically, what I mean to say is that the proportion of people who completely disregard real world use for something as trivial as any perceived negatives when feeling out a switch slowly to people who do not do so must be so inconsequential that this doesn't really matter much. In repeatedly emphasizing it as a problem, it makes it seem like you think that this is something at least relatively common. I can't imagine that that would be the case. If they're that dense, there's probably no changing it anyway.
I don't know if you've been on this board longer than your registration but it has come up on here more than a few times over the years..and again in this thread. 

There is also an unusual level of OCD associated with this hobby so yes, people do nitpick at this type of thing because it isn't perfect in their mind. 

Another variation with this is when someone comes on about how every Topre key isn't the same weight that some are slightly heavier...or lighter..and they explain how they don't notice it when typing but it really bothers them that they're not exactly the same....It is all in their head. 

What sort of blind test was this? Had they all used each of the switches for any appreciable period of time first? If not, that would obviously be a point of failure.
They did a head to head comparison across a range of different switches in a given category.  I think only one of them was familiar w/ all of the switches...the rest of them had tried maybe some of them.

I imagine that literally nobody could correctly identify every single switch they've felt before if there's a close analogue in the running, maybe not even every single switch they've typed on extensively, but it seems to me that we get back into the territory of bizarre what-if scenarios if we're talking about people writing a switch off entirely for XYZ and doing a 180 just because they couldn't see it the next time they felt it. That's my reason for thinking a blind test would be of dubious purpose in a case like that. It would still feel just as terrible, or great, unless you're also limiting it to normal presses only, which should (hopefully) realistically still affect the opinion of an insignificant number of people. It would more likely sway people who had an unshakable preconceived opinion of a switch before ever having felt it at all, and then disregarded their own senses entirely. I would still hope, in a community like this, that that would still be an extremely small number of people, but I could see it being significantly more than the group we've been talking about.
The point of a blind test is not to identify them correctly but frankly, if you can identify them all blind this doesn't serve any purpose because you will know what they are...And yes, at that level, that person has probably tried most things and is just going with what they really enjoy without the bias.  And yes, I'm talking just normal usage..if you want to eliminate the bias of "slo mo" then you eliminate that as a test..not saying you have to do it that way but to get at what I'm talking about you would. 

You seem to be pretty convinced people don't convince themselves they like something/dislike something...but that happens in every hobby.  If you're honest with yourself, you won't fall into this trap but a lot of people do. 

Now, people will notice the difference between linear, tactile and clicky...So obviously someone that dislikes linear isn't suddenly going to like a linear switch because they'll know it is linear....But the differences in tactile switches lets say?  Or linear switches?  Within each category you'll no doubt find people that disliked a particular switch but liked it when trying them blind.   That is a complete 180.  Is it most people?  No..what you're more likely to find is some people that picked their favorite switch as their favorite..some people would have picked a different switch as their favorite (even if they've tried them all before) and a smaller number that picks their least favorite as their favorite...
 
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 May 2020, 03:38:52 by Polymer »

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1396
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #76 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 04:27:20 »
More specifically, what I mean to say is that the proportion of people who completely disregard real world use for something as trivial as any perceived negatives when feeling out a switch slowly to people who do not do so must be so inconsequential that this doesn't really matter much. In repeatedly emphasizing it as a problem, it makes it seem like you think that this is something at least relatively common. I can't imagine that that would be the case. If they're that dense, there's probably no changing it anyway.
I don't know if you've been on this board longer than your registration but it has come up on here more than a few times over the years..and again in this thread. 

There is also an unusual level of OCD associated with this hobby so yes, people do nitpick at this type of thing because it isn't perfect in their mind. 

Another variation with this is when someone comes on about how every Topre key isn't the same weight that some are slightly heavier...or lighter..and they explain how they don't notice it when typing but it really bothers them that they're not exactly the same....It is all in their head.

I did lurk for a few years first. I wouldn't say that anecdotal examples are indicative of any discernible trend, especially when the loudest voice draws the most attention. It is he same as what you do or do not see on the news. Accidental drownings, rampages, drunken brawls, plane crashes, someone being struck by lightning, all anecdotal events concentrated to the extreme that would make you think the world was coming to an end if you didn't know any better. Maybe I missed something, but I haven't seen it at all in this thread, unless you count just mentioning how smooth Topre feels when pressed slowly ... well, and you could probably count typo, but that's just typo. No offense, typo.

I have noticed the OCD, and I don't understand the levels to which it is sometimes applied, like how perfect the edges of legends on printed caps look when looking at them through a magnifying glass.

What sort of blind test was this? Had they all used each of the switches for any appreciable period of time first? If not, that would obviously be a point of failure.
They did a head to head comparison across a range of different switches in a given category.  I think only one of them was familiar w/ all of the switches...the rest of them had tried maybe some of them.

I imagine that literally nobody could correctly identify every single switch they've felt before if there's a close analogue in the running, maybe not even every single switch they've typed on extensively, but it seems to me that we get back into the territory of bizarre what-if scenarios if we're talking about people writing a switch off entirely for XYZ and doing a 180 just because they couldn't see it the next time they felt it. That's my reason for thinking a blind test would be of dubious purpose in a case like that. It would still feel just as terrible, or great, unless you're also limiting it to normal presses only, which should (hopefully) realistically still affect the opinion of an insignificant number of people. It would more likely sway people who had an unshakable preconceived opinion of a switch before ever having felt it at all, and then disregarded their own senses entirely. I would still hope, in a community like this, that that would still be an extremely small number of people, but I could see it being significantly more than the group we've been talking about.
The point of a blind test is not to identify them correctly but frankly, if you can identify them all blind this doesn't serve any purpose because you will know what they are...And yes, at that level, that person has probably tried most things and is just going with what they really enjoy without the bias.  And yes, I'm talking just normal usage..if you want to eliminate the bias of "slo mo" then you eliminate that as a test..not saying you have to do it that way but to get at what I'm talking about you would.

I was going to say something very similar to this effect if you had not. At the very least, if a particular mechanism was dismissed out of hand, and that is maintained in blind testing, that would also be a lack of bias, even if the individual switches that share that mechanism were not correctly guessed.

You seem to be pretty convinced people don't convince themselves they like something/dislike something...but that happens in every hobby.  If you're honest with yourself, you won't fall into this trap but a lot of people do. 

I mentioned the fact that it does happen, in multiple ways, just that I don't think that it is as common as you do.

Now, people will notice the difference between linear, tactile and clicky...So obviously someone that dislikes linear isn't suddenly going to like a linear switch because they'll know it is linear....But the differences in tactile switches lets say?  Or linear switches?  Within each category you'll no doubt find people that disliked a particular switch but liked it when trying them blind.   That is a complete 180.  Is it most people?  No..what you're more likely to find is some people that picked their favorite switch as their favorite..some people would have picked a different switch as their favorite (even if they've tried them all before) and a smaller number that picks their least favorite as their favorite...
 

Most of that is what I had already said, we only disagree on how common it would be for someone to suddenly like a switch they previously hated due to some kind of mental conditioning and/or irrational bias.

Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #77 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 16:22:02 »
I have noticed the OCD, and I don't understand the levels to which it is sometimes applied, like how perfect the edges of legends on printed caps look when looking at them through a magnifying glass.
So you've seen the levels of OCD...so you know it happens...I'm not saying it is a majority of people on this board..or even mech keyboard enthusiasts..but it isn't a rarity.   Far from it. 

Read Leslieann's post again...A reasonable number of people do care how switches feel when pressing them slowly..not because it has any functional benefit but because it bothers them to think it doesn't feel great under very condition, even conditions they don't use. 

But I'll say it again, IMO, people should be looking for a switch they like under normal conditions and the rest don't matter because that is just an irrational consideration.  Some people will disagree and that's fine but let's not try to justify it as anything but their OCD getting in the way.  I'm not saying they can't do that, it is their choice but let's just admit it is their OCD and not a rational argument.   It sounds like we agree, we just don't agree on the frequency.

So why do I mention it?  Same reason I mention how bottoming out is not a bad thing and you lose speed when you try not to bottom out.  The same reason I mention that we don't react to a tactile bump to tell us when to stop pressing.  These were all some weird thing people made up many years ago that still somehow makes its way through the hobby..you just see it talked about far less than you did a number of years ago..
« Last Edit: Sun, 03 May 2020, 16:24:05 by Polymer »

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #78 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 17:45:52 »
I have noticed the OCD, and I don't understand the levels to which it is sometimes applied, like how perfect the edges of legends on printed caps look when looking at them through a magnifying glass.
So you've seen the levels of OCD...so you know it happens...I'm not saying it is a majority of people on this board..or even mech keyboard enthusiasts..but it isn't a rarity.   Far from it. 

Read Leslieann's post again...A reasonable number of people do care how switches feel when pressing them slowly..not because it has any functional benefit but because it bothers them to think it doesn't feel great under very condition, even conditions they don't use. 

But I'll say it again, IMO, people should be looking for a switch they like under normal conditions and the rest don't matter because that is just an irrational consideration.  Some people will disagree and that's fine but let's not try to justify it as anything but their OCD getting in the way.  I'm not saying they can't do that, it is their choice but let's just admit it is their OCD and not a rational argument.   It sounds like we agree, we just don't agree on the frequency.

So why do I mention it?  Same reason I mention how bottoming out is not a bad thing and you lose speed when you try not to bottom out.  The same reason I mention that we don't react to a tactile bump to tell us when to stop pressing.  These were all some weird thing people made up many years ago that still somehow makes its way through the hobby..you just see it talked about far less than you did a number of years ago..

We do mostly agree, on most things other than how common it is for someone to be entirely blinded to real-world use of a switch based on how it feels when pressed slowly. I haven't seen anybody say as much, and we can't assume that even a large percentage of people who simply mention how a switch feels when pressed slowly fit into this theoretical group.

I don't think that acting OCD necessarily correlates at all to something like that.

I agree on bottoming out.

Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #79 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 18:13:44 »
I don't think that acting OCD necessarily correlates at all to something like that.

Of course it does...How can it not?

If you're particular about all the little things and obsess about each and every detail, even the ones that don't really matter, how do you mentally get over the fact that you don't like how the switch feels when pressed slowly?

Of course there are different levels of OCD but the one you quoted where people are concerned about how clean the lines are under a microscrope.  You don't think they care about every little detail?  More likely than not I'd say.

That isn't to say every individual with a bit of OCD cares about every single detail..but the people that do are the ones more likely to care about the little details that don't really matter..

And of course I'm not using OCD as in someone diagnosed with it..just in the more relaxed way of saying someone is a bit more obsessive about some of the details than they probably should be.    There is a bit of that in probably most keyboard people..




Offline funkmon

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #80 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 18:39:41 »
OCD is a disorder that doesn't manifest in a logical way much of the time. We can't simply extrapolate a person's behaviour in one aspect of his or her life and assume the other aspects. This is getting quite off topic, isn't it?

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #81 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 18:44:08 »
OCD is a disorder that doesn't manifest in a logical way much of the time. We can't simply extrapolate a person's behaviour in one aspect of his or her life and assume the other aspects. This is getting quite off topic, isn't it?

Agreed.

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #82 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 21:56:51 »
I can't believe you guy's are still arguing this. I would never started this. I hope mods lock it. You people really are not nice to each other. I thought it was something wrong with me to get insults, but no.
From Cherry I pick Blues. Blues suck. Cherry is old news. Today Boutique switches are just as nice as Topre. Just somewhat different feeling. Still every bit as good if you get used to them IMO.  My one good board has blues. not tried yet. Although "blue custom pandas". May be okay. Can't tell yet. Otherwise I swap. Please stop arguing.
There are more serious things. Such as Dying! Yes, Everyone down to all my great grand kids are here. Funny thing is I am not sad but my family is. I had a great life IMO. Even though many of you think I am just some low bit jerk. Why do you folk have such fervor? Need anger management. I figured you all "nerds" would be peaceful submissive crowd. Boy was I wrong. Maybe years of being misunderstood/ bullied? IDK. Please love thy neighbor. Peace.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #83 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 23:23:00 »
I can't believe you guy's are still arguing this. I would never started this. I hope mods lock it. You people really are not nice to each other. I thought it was something wrong with me to get insults, but no.
From Cherry I pick Blues. Blues suck. Cherry is old news. Today Boutique switches are just as nice as Topre. Just somewhat different feeling. Still every bit as good if you get used to them IMO.  My one good board has blues. not tried yet. Although "blue custom pandas". May be okay. Can't tell yet. Otherwise I swap. Please stop arguing.
There are more serious things. Such as Dying! Yes, Everyone down to all my great grand kids are here. Funny thing is I am not sad but my family is. I had a great life IMO. Even though many of you think I am just some low bit jerk. Why do you folk have such fervor? Need anger management. I figured you all "nerds" would be peaceful submissive crowd. Boy was I wrong. Maybe years of being misunderstood/ bullied? IDK. Please love thy neighbor. Peace.

I think that this has been mostly a healthy, civil conversation. Has anybody insulted someone else? I haven't seen it in the conversations in which I've been involved. Blue custom pandas? What are those? I try to learn about all of the wild custom linears and tactiles when I can, even if it may be some time before I bother to try any of them, but you make that sound like that one may be clicky?

You've got very vocal detractors, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is even a large proportion of people who read the things you've said. People who disagree with, or disbelieve what you say have greater motivation to respond than people who take it at face value, or have no opinion. I think of myself as neutral in that regard, and actually kind of like to watch the fireworks that result.

There's your problem, you assume. Stereotypes rarely reflect reality.

Enjoy their company, you're all fortunate to have time to have it. Sometimes it isn't so. I didn't have it with my father, not consciously anyway. At this moment my cousin is on life support, with an indeterminate outcome. Her parents were not present when that crisis began. You, on the other hand, have got time to say goodbye. I wish you luck, whatever that may entail.

Offline walie

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #84 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 08:52:00 »
Typo is just mad that the convo is no longer about him.

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #85 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 09:32:50 »
Alright, just spent a good 10 minutes reading through the entire thread.

Here is what it's about, for anyone who does not want to read through:

  • Topre is good and everything else is bad.
  • Some boutique switches get pretty close to Topre.
  • "Good" and "bad" switches are based on personal preference, but people can still agree on which switches feel better than others, generally.
  • If good or bad switches should be judged by pressing slowly or quickly.
  • Everyone and their mother insulting Typo.


Offline Polymer

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #86 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 09:50:45 »
Typo is just mad that the convo is no longer about him.

Winner Winner!

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #87 on: Mon, 04 May 2020, 10:48:02 »
Actually I am glad the heat is off of me.

The blues are not really pandas. They have a silent red spring, lubed and thin o-ring or so I am told. I will see how I like it. I guess it is coming today. Now I am going to get flamed again. It is Korean. I do not know whom. From the specs It "seems" nicer than Rama or OTD. I mean for instance they weighted it to like 13 pounds or something. The case is not anodized but electro plated. Of course fully milled by hand. The stainless plate is nearly 1/2" thick. .35" to be exact. The PBT DS caps are almost 3mm thick. You can believe me or not. Although I may very well think it stinks. Oh, I am sure they are clicky but I bet less noise than stock blues.

I am honestly just here trying to keep my mind off of what is going to happen to me. Yes, if you want to engage me great.

Offline tacomn

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #88 on: Fri, 15 May 2020, 17:33:37 »
So typo if you love topre so much, which boards are your favorite?

Offline IronCheeks

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #89 on: Fri, 15 May 2020, 19:53:21 »
As a newbie to this hobby, this thread is teaching me a lot about key switches, actuation force, design, and expectations about feel.
Regarding the opinion-driven comments, I mean hey, to each their own.
Maledicted could not have put it better for OP and for I.



Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #90 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 00:41:37 »
If no one noticed I have taken this back as of late. I have some unknown perhaps "blue" based MX switches I shall not look back! I can say this with confidence as I have about 100,000 words on them now. I love these. they are so lite and dainty. Like an angels dance. FYI, they are about as clicky as silent Red! I do not really know what they comprise but I love them!

Offline Maledicted

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #91 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 10:02:40 »
As a newbie to this hobby, this thread is teaching me a lot about key switches, actuation force, design, and expectations about feel.
Regarding the opinion-driven comments, I mean hey, to each their own.
Maledicted could not have put it better for OP and for I.

It is good to hear that something constructive has come from it all. Even opinions are data, when compared against other opinions ... so long as those opinions aren't all too influenced by trends vs pure unadulterated experiences.

I'm somewhat surprised you named me specifically. I can have some pretty strong opinions myself, but I like to think that they're usually pretty well-reasoned, and they're subject to persuasion. For whatever it's worth, I'm glad insights you found here may have helped.

If no one noticed I have taken this back as of late. I have some unknown perhaps "blue" based MX switches I shall not look back! I can say this with confidence as I have about 100,000 words on them now. I love these. they are so lite and dainty. Like an angels dance. FYI, they are about as clicky as silent Red! I do not really know what they comprise but I love them!

So, they're linears? What the heck are those things?

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #92 on: Mon, 18 May 2020, 23:30:33 »
I have no clue how to describe these switches, let alone what they even are. I think they "said" based off blue. that could be lost in Korean translation though completely. I honestly have no idea what they are. bottom of the switch is white with a gold dot and top is a very milky blue. Then I do not even think it has the stock spring or slider for whatever that is plus O-ring and lube. I honestly have no clue what these are. As quiet as a silent Red so could not really be blue? Could not be tactile either. No bump, very smooth. just press straight down but force ever so slightly increases, barely. I would say maybe these are 15-20G. not even kidding. You can sneeze to actuate these. these are great for very fast typing if you have very low mistype. My WPM increased drastically.  I guess it does not really matter now but short of taking one apart I kind of would like to know what they are comprised of. They may not have a single cherry part in fact. They could be Tealio/Zealio based or Drop or who knows. I did mention you because I have grown to value your opinion here.

Offline walie

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #93 on: Tue, 19 May 2020, 08:15:10 »
I have no clue how to describe these switches, let alone what they even are. I think they "said" based off blue. that could be lost in Korean translation though completely. I honestly have no idea what they are. bottom of the switch is white with a gold dot and top is a very milky blue. Then I do not even think it has the stock spring or slider for whatever that is plus O-ring and lube. I honestly have no clue what these are. As quiet as a silent Red so could not really be blue? Could not be tactile either. No bump, very smooth. just press straight down but force ever so slightly increases, barely. I would say maybe these are 15-20G. not even kidding. You can sneeze to actuate these. these are great for very fast typing if you have very low mistype. My WPM increased drastically.  I guess it does not really matter now but short of taking one apart I kind of would like to know what they are comprised of. They may not have a single cherry part in fact. They could be Tealio/Zealio based or Drop or who knows. I did mention you because I have grown to value your opinion here.

you're kinda grasping at straws here

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #94 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 08:42:18 »
Exactly. Hence, can't describe them. Duh! I never saw anything like them before. I can't say I have seen everything. I never felt anything like them either. I honestly guess these are 20g or less!

Offline DALExSNAIL

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #95 on: Wed, 20 May 2020, 09:09:29 »
Why does this ****ing thread exist tbh

Offline typo

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #96 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 04:31:26 »
That is not very nice. What is wrong with it exactly? So you don't enjoy it. Obviously others did.

Offline walie

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Re: There is only one kind of keyboard that is any(very) good IMO
« Reply #97 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 11:01:14 »
Why does this ****ing thread exist tbh

attention seekers seeking attention