Author Topic: [IC] Sagittarius, a gasket-mount optimized ergonomic layout custom keyboard  (Read 32448 times)

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Offline gnho

  • Posts: 105
  • Location: ATX/US
I am really confused about this IC. Is there any feedback actually useful? I'm seeing a lot of suggestions and why these suggestions are bad. Maybe they're bad, who knows? But if this community, or the people who are interested in this board, are not able to provide useful suggestion, what's the point of all these?

I mean given the amount of work and experimentation etc. that went into the designing the layout, it is understandable that basically any suggested change to the layout is going to have to meet a certain threshold of merit before the suggestion is considered. Suggestions like "I would prefer a second B" are valid but not particularly useful when Gondo has already explained why a second B won't be included. Further they have already stated that the feedback regarding the case design is being taken into account. So its more a matter of what ones suggestions are. Do the suggestions attempt to change a fundamental part of the layout design? Then they probably won't result in a change. If they are concerned with something less central to the project (like the case design) then they are more likely to result in change.
Yeah and I'm totally fine with that. Maybe just from this point make clear that the layout is not negotiable. Other feedbacks are welcome.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


Offline deepmail

  • Posts: 8
I am taking online classes right now and have never typed so much and so often in my life. So I've been looking into ergonomic oriented layouts. I think this is the first I've seen with citations and that interests me. I would love to grab this if it isn't prohibitively priced; though I'm curious, is this style of keyboard better than a split?

Online stein3

  • Posts: 53
There are two problems with right side B.

The first one being of course that you need two B keys and end up having to take one of those extra keyset kits. The second one being that, ultimately, the idea between two angled alpha clusters is to force you touch type. Now this ramificates into two more issues: the first being that if you have two keys for the same character it can mess up your muscular memory, and the second being that the B key is meant to be hit with the left hand on touch typing. We can consider adding an extra B key, but that can interfere with the plans we have for that huge middle space between the alpha clusters (yes, we do have something special intended there).

Just from my personal experience, I touch type but have developed the muscle memory in both hands to use the b key (and y key). The hand I use depends on the previous and next keypresses.
Mostly I use the Y key with my right hand, and the B key with my left hand, but not always (unless I'm typing on a split with only one key).

That's not to say that I wouldn't use this keyboard and de-train old habits, just sharing where I am coming from.

I am curious why the extra keys would "mess up your muscle memory." If that's not already part of your typing style, would you even press that key? I think of it being included for people who already have the "incorrect" muscle memory so that those people don't need to retrain themselves. And for those who do not need the second B, it can serve as a layer switch button or other modifier.

I feel like most base sets come with extra 1u R4 keys even though they might not have the B legend, but at the very least I nearly always see them included in spacebars kits (at least for GMK sets), which people are going to want for this anyway, right?

The one reason I would vote against having the second B is if it affects the layout of any other key, but it looks like there's room to add it as-is.
Individual users can decide if that B is worth the extra index finger stretch or whether its better to force the left B and retrain their brain. Best of all, this can change over time, so users can start out using both Bs and work their way towards only using the left B.

Sorry to keep badgering on this point, I am just trying to understand the negatives to it when it appears to me that it won't affect anything else on the board.

Offline Zeelobby

  • Posts: 737
I am really confused about this IC. Is there any feedback actually useful? I'm seeing a lot of suggestions and why these suggestions are bad. Maybe they're bad, who knows? But if this community, or the people who are interested in this board, are not able to provide useful suggestion, what's the point of all these?

I mean given the amount of work and experimentation etc. that went into the designing the layout, it is understandable that basically any suggested change to the layout is going to have to meet a certain threshold of merit before the suggestion is considered. Suggestions like "I would prefer a second B" are valid but not particularly useful when Gondo has already explained why a second B won't be included. Further they have already stated that the feedback regarding the case design is being taken into account. So its more a matter of what ones suggestions are. Do the suggestions attempt to change a fundamental part of the layout design? Then they probably won't result in a change. If they are concerned with something less central to the project (like the case design) then they are more likely to result in change.
Yeah and I'm totally fine with that. Maybe just from this point make clear that the layout is not negotiable. Other feedbacks are welcome.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

I mean I think anything is still open to discussion. As said in the previous reply, you just gotta come with compelling scientific research in this case. I mean I doubt anyone has any but I'd definitely welcome it as someone sitting on the sidelines.

Its just insufficient to come with a request for any personal preference as far as layout goes. If the layout is missing something a person needs, the board is likely a pass for them. But the board layout was generated with collected input from many individuals and represents an optimized result of that sample set. It's not really a board made for one specific group or individual, but optimized for an average human's capabilities.

Now I could see some layout or design commentary pertaining to case shape/style or mod keys outside the core alphas and mods.
« Last Edit: Tue, 23 June 2020, 19:22:40 by Zeelobby »

Offline gnho

  • Posts: 105
  • Location: ATX/US
Don't get me wrong. I'm a scientist myself and I teach statistics at both the graduate and undergraduate level. I am not against science.

My priors are:
1. There are clusters of typing patterns.
2. For each cluster, there may be an optimal layout.

Now, I'm not sure what sample the algorithm used to generate this layout. What I am seeing here is that the sample may not include many people cared enough to give feedback in this thread. This may or may not be a problem. There could be many people who think this is perfect and don't bother to say anything. It could also be the case that people will learn how great this design is once it's in the market. I honestly don't know. What I worry is that the type of people that were used to train the algorithm may not necessarily be the type of people who are willing to try alternative layouts, which is the majority of the people I know. Even for a devoted community like this one, most people still stick with standard layouts instead of more ergonomic ones. So, I doubt that there's any scientific study having a big sample of mechanical keyboard hobbyists.

At the end of the day, I'm not putting any money in creating the board and am still considering purchase one. I'm just not sure if I should still follow this thread if the discussion will just be about the case. Don't we have enough discussion about cases?

Offline vurtomatic

  • Posts: 17
We can consider adding an extra B key, but that can interfere with the plans we have for that huge middle space between the alpha clusters (yes, we do have something special intended there).

1) Nobody seems to be paying that last sentence any attention. Maybe when they reveal what's happening there, it'll calm the B requests.

2) That said, I do find it somewhat ironic that a purported optimized ergonomic layout is forcing people to type its way over a B key.

3) Gondolindrim I applaud your patience!
« Last Edit: Wed, 24 June 2020, 00:14:43 by vurtomatic »

Offline TheMegaSean

  • Posts: 14
  • Location: Taiwan
There are two problems with right side B.

The first one being of course that you need two B keys and end up having to take one of those extra keyset kits. The second one being that, ultimately, the idea between two angled alpha clusters is to force you touch type. Now this ramificates into two more issues: the first being that if you have two keys for the same character it can mess up your muscular memory, and the second being that the B key is meant to be hit with the left hand on touch typing. We can consider adding an extra B key, but that can interfere with the plans we have for that huge middle space between the alpha clusters (yes, we do have something special intended there).

Just from my personal experience, I touch type but have developed the muscle memory in both hands to use the b key (and y key). The hand I use depends on the previous and next keypresses.

.....

I am curious why the extra keys would "mess up your muscle memory." If that's not already part of your typing style, would you even press that key? I think of it being included for people who already have the "incorrect" muscle memory so that those people don't need to retrain themselves. And for those who do not need the second B, it can serve as a layer switch button or other modifier.


Sorry to continue this entire 2 B issue, but I feel the need to echo the above quote and that the forefinger that presses B entirely depends on which word came before and comes after. Even typing this previous sentence, for me it was all right forefinger :))  After doing some self-analysis, I use right forefinger 90% of the time. I just tried a 5min typing test and only used my right forefinger. I failed miserably :)) hahaha One could just set which B to be the primary and have the other as a macro. That would actually be fabulous!

I see that you've made it clear though that the layout is pretty much set though. I just wanted to chime in to give my experience.

Offline Gondolindrim

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 394
  • Location: Gondolin
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I am really confused about this IC. Is there any feedback actually useful? I'm seeing a lot of suggestions and why these suggestions are bad. Maybe they're bad, who knows? But if this community, or the people who are interested in this board, are not able to provide useful suggestion, what's the point of all these?

I mean given the amount of work and experimentation etc. that went into the designing the layout, it is understandable that basically any suggested change to the layout is going to have to meet a certain threshold of merit before the suggestion is considered. Suggestions like "I would prefer a second B" are valid but not particularly useful when Gondo has already explained why a second B won't be included. Further they have already stated that the feedback regarding the case design is being taken into account. So its more a matter of what ones suggestions are. Do the suggestions attempt to change a fundamental part of the layout design? Then they probably won't result in a change. If they are concerned with something less central to the project (like the case design) then they are more likely to result in change.
Yeah and I'm totally fine with that. Maybe just from this point make clear that the layout is not negotiable. Other feedbacks are welcome.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


At the end of the day, I'm not putting any money in creating the board and am still considering purchase one. I'm just not sure if I should still follow this thread if the discussion will just be about the case. Don't we have enough discussion about cases?

The layout is absolutely not impervious to feedback here. But the feedback so far has been for a second B or because the column/row stagger is bad, and the arguments are "because I think it will be better" and "I use it other way and it works for me". I'm not saying that these allegations are not legitimate -- lest see my reply to kraukat:

Seems my questions left unanswered so I honestly want to wish good luck with IC and hopefully smooth GB as well.

The initiative brought by Gondolindrim is very important for our community. The more ergonomic keyboards we have, the better consequences will be there and the more impact on future designs such experiments will have.

I am sorry I was too aggressive and unfriendly with my feedback.

(...)

In the same metaphor, your granny's tea is like your symmetrical layout right now. It works for you, it has worked wonderfully so why the heck would you buy a several-hundred dollar keyboard that has this overly-engineered layout that needs a 2500+ word essay to be presented and described? I think that it's totally legitimate you say "well, it's not for me". And I'm okay with that. I'm very conscious Sagittarius is not meant to be the next Alice nor am I trying to be the next yutski.

(...)

The problem with these arguments is that they are not good reasons to change the layout when I have solid proven foundation that the suggestions are not good ideas for a layuout aimed not at individual comfort, but results for a certain public.

I respect the feedback that is given here, and I am grateful to those ones that take the time to read my long-ass replies and posts. So I think I respect them enough to give said long-ass replies and posts showing exactly why and how I think this or that suggestion is a bad idea. That way no feedback foes unquestioned or unfounded. I am trying to be transparent.

Notwithstanding, all of the suggestions were already tested and considered at some point in the design and I already chose not to do them even before the IC due to various reasons. The alternatives we considered include, but are not limited to:

  • Symmetrical layout
  • Two Bs
  • Different column and row staggers in the form of the splits and ergos we have today
  • Different key grid (use something larger than 19.05mm)
  • Make the clusters closer or make them farther
  • Make a different (smaller or bigger) thumb cluster
  • Using a 6.25U / 7U spacebar below the clusters
  • Doing a stepped layout where the keys are in different heights
  • Using a fixed angle like the alice and the FLX Virgo
  • Having more layer modifier keys, specially done so that each hand has at least two or three possibilities
  • Using encoders between the clusters or above them
  • Making the bottom bezel bigger so the user is forced to type with standing arms and elbows
  • Making the top bezel bigger so the user is encouraged to type with the keyboard closer to the body, forcing a straigh spine position
  • Using only longer modifier keys (2U and beyond) to make it easier to hit those keys

Each single one of these concepts was tested and proven to either perform badly on optimization, having incompatibility with a keyset base kit, or simply not affecting the matter at hand so much so that it's worth the consideration. Have in mind seventeen iterations of the layout were done, tested and the three final ones were tested in locu, with real patients.

So it's not that this post is a "fake IC" that I did just to be on the moral high ground and secretly ditch all the feedback. It's just that every single feedback was considered and no compelling arguments were given. The only thing I wouldn't mind including layout-wise would be the second B key, but the real problem I don't want to include one is that I have a special purpose for that middle space between the clusters.

That being said, I reiterate that every single aspect of the layout is subject to feedback but in order for me to revise all that I did and renew the layout I need to hear something material about how it might make the layout better or fit the theme.

« Last Edit: Wed, 24 June 2020, 01:53:37 by Gondolindrim »
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline Gondolindrim

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  • Location: Gondolin
    • My GitHub
(...)

Now, I'm not sure what sample the algorithm used to generate this layout. What I am seeing here is that the sample may not include many people cared enough to give feedback in this thread. This may or may not be a problem (...). What I worry is that the type of people that were used to train the algorithm may not necessarily be the type of people who are willing to try alternative layouts, which is the majority of the people I know .

(...)

Now we are talking.

The huge question any Data Scientist has to constantly ask him or herself is is: is the dataset biased in any way? That will deeply affect the algorithm, the optimization and the final results, of course! Well, the data science method leaves us to inquiry:

  • What are the possible biases the dataset could have,
  • How would these biases affect the final results and to which extent
  • If the biases impact the results singnificantly, what kind of correction or restriction to the dataset would it require to yield more credible results

Analizing trends among the subjects we found out that there are three biases our dataset had:

  • The great majority of subjects were right-handed
  • Most injuries were caused by repetitive hand movement, but a significant portion were caused by accidents
  • Many of the subjects had significant nerve, joint, bone or ligament lesions before our research took plate, some of them having records of surgical intervention on the wrist or hands

However, there were some qualities to our dataset we coudl be certain about:

  • None of the subjects were children/adolescents who are still developing joints. All subjects were adults with completely formed joints, muscles and bones.
  • No subject was under effect of anesthetic or drug that could affect their response
  • All of the subjects had access to computers or mobile devices that carry a keyboard-type input, meaning we didn't teach anyone to use a keyboard. This is important because one might suspect we taught them the wrong way to use the keyboard, afffecting how they perceive the peripheral.

From these biases, we inferred that they could affect the datashet (thence the optimization) in the following ways.

Having the majority of data being from right-handed subjects proved not to be so impactful on usability. I did respond detailedly on this in a previous comment:


Thanks for spoon-feeding me the info!   I actually took time to read the full post today.  First thing--I'm truly sorry for the loss of Tom...  It's a great thing you're doing making this board a part of his legacy.  I didn't quite grok that the alternative layout option was showing that the two bottom rows could be swapped for arrow keys--and now I feel even sillier knowing that the arrows are part of the Sagittarius name! 

I was also wondering about the differences in the stagger between right and left, but I see you've answered that.  I suppose that this actually makes the board right-handed?  (I'm a righty, so that's fine for me, but I just wanted to check). 

It's also too bad that the last thing to be open-sourced will be the optimization algorithm, as that is the part that interests me the most! :D

This is an interesting question too: is Sagittarius left or right handed?

The optimization algorithm did take into accound a "left-handed or right-handed" parameter. We did take samples and measurements from a wide array of people, so we did have data from both orientations. The problem is that the majority of people (that's statistical, not personal opinion) are right-handed, so we did eventually ask the questions if our data was biased towards right-handed (which it clearly was). Since I was the data scientist I did some experimentation of rolling the algorithm only with left-handed data or even 50/50.

The results were very interesting. What it did show us is that the "left-handed oriented" layout was VERY harmful to right-handed people, that is, the right handed-oriented coordination tends to be more inflexible to orientation changes, whereas the "right-handed-biased" layout we had was not so bad to left-handed people.

Upon concluding this, we took is to Tom's advisor -- big rehabilitation surgeon and researcher -- and he told us that the result is completely understandable since everything in our world tends to be designed/aimed at righties because the big majority is right-handed, so the righties don't have to adapt. The lefties, on the other hand, are more tolerant towards right-handed appliances because they have to train their physiology -- muscles and muscular memory -- to use right-oriented appliances.

Our ultimate decision was to keep the layout with the whole of the data. Upon running the optimization results and the in locu testing -- we did het a dozen people to use the layout -- the left-handed that used the layout told us they were comfortable using the layout as well.

(...)

As for the bias number two -- the fact that some of the subjects were recovering from accident-induced lesions -- we concluded that it didn't make sense for us to make a layout optimized towards that public, simply because the focus of this keyboard is not being a physiotherapy, but offer a more comfortable option to those who have the exact opposite lesion, induced by repetitive hand movements. Hence we removed from the dataset the subjects with those kinds of lesions (accidental).

Finally, as for the third bias -- subjects that already had significant lesions before the research took place -- we considered that the fact they had this history was statistically enriching to us, because it will allow us to train the algorithm to accomodate people with these conditions. We don't know if the user that will type on a Sagittarius has or had previous lesions, and having that influence to the dataset is welcome. So we left those subjects there.

These were our thoughs and method. If you have an opinion on them, please share.

For your comments:

(...)
1. There are clusters of typing patterns.
2. For each cluster, there may be an optimal layout
(...)

You are completely right and we did think of that. The main motivation for statistics is that obviously for every single individual there is an optimal solution, but it's unfeasible to give each and everyone their particular optimal solution. So we adopt criteria and methods to ensure that one or a couple solutions are optimal to everyone in a degree of certainty.

Those are fancy words, so let us translate that to the problem at hand. The problem is: knowing that there are different typing patterns, how do we make a commercially viable layout that single-handedly attends to all of those typing patterns? Take for instance the mice market. As you might know, there are three main types of mouse grips: palms, fingertips and claw. This means that a particular mouse might feel obnoxious to you but estupendly comfortable to a friend; you should get a mouse that fits your particular grip, and there are tens if not hundreds of options to choose from. However we can't make two or three different layouts for Sagittarius, as that would probably require three different plates, three different PCBs and three different cases -- that is, three different keyboards altogether. This not only makes for a logistical nightmare but also divides the GB units, making the cases more expensive or even not meeting MOQ. In order to help with this, we tried adding as many layout compatibilities as we could -- ISO option, arrow options, split shift, split spaces, and so on.

On this, if you have a nice idea on how to help us, I'd appreciate a lot.

Another point where you are completely right is:

(...) So, I doubt that there's any scientific study having a big sample of mechanical keyboard hobbyists. (...)

This is indeed correct; our dataset comes from subjects that have little to no familiarity with this community. However, please note that the data group from this community that I have available is close to nonexistant. I would love to do that with people from the hobby, but even with all of these requirements the MKBR community is so ridiculously small that I can safelly assume the data we collected outnumbers the members of our entire Discord server, let alone the ones near me. I did, however, run the "pseudo-placebo" tests on five friends of mine that participate in the community, so I think I can have some validation there.

Also, please bear in mind that these are health-related tests, and in this field any kind of research or development has really tight requirements to be even considered scientific at all. Take for instance the COVID19 vaccine reserches in place: the tests and interviews have to be done in a very specific environment, under the guidance of a very specific and highly trained set of professionals in locu, using very controlled and precise measurements from hundred-thousand-dollar machines, on a strict control group that was watched closely for weeks, with a very specific care on treatment of the data, and using an equally specific method. As a statician you can vouch to the care and ultimate delicacy we have to treat results from the pharmacology/medicine industries and academia, and I can't make all of that work remotely.

Since we are past the point and already have some solid results, I'd love in the future to get very deep feedback from members and have them help us fine-tune the layout, without the intention of publishing papers or making hard science. But as Sagittarius is today, I intend to leave it as it is -- perhaps with some minimal changes due to the feedback we are receiving or significant changes if the reasoning is sound -- , not only in respect to the gargantuan amounts of effort I put into it but also in respect to the other people that worked on this -- specially Tom.

I apologise if this reply is too long or sounds arrogant in any way, as I tried to chew down and explain my thought train here with very basic concepts. You said you were a graduate-level statician, but I have to reply to everyone here that is reading this, not only those with a technical background.
« Last Edit: Wed, 24 June 2020, 01:50:50 by Gondolindrim »
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline danieljgrouse

  • Posts: 41
I think sometimes people forget that IC stands for Interest Check, not Committee Design Panel. The point is to present a thing and gauge how many people would be interested in buying it, maybe implementing small changes that allow for the eventual GB to accommodate as many people as possible. However many of the suggestions here are more along the lines of asking for the colours of the mods and alphas of a keycap set to be completely changed during IC. That said I am glad it gives Gondo an opportunity to explain so much of the reasoning behind the board and many of the design decisions. Itís always nice to see when OP has thorough well explained responses for why certain changes canít be implemented. The level of effort thatís gone into this is breathtaking and I hope weíll see more data driven designs like this in the future.
I assume I wonít be able to afford the first run of this board, itís probably gonna be relatively expensive and deservedly so. This 100% deserves to be run as a high end premium board. Though I also hope there will eventually be a more budget run as well since accessibility aids like this deserve to be accessible to as many people as possible.
Overall the board looks amazing and this is one of the most impressive ICs Iíve seen in a long time.

Offline gnho

  • Posts: 105
  • Location: ATX/US
To be very clear, I'm supportive of this project. It's very exciting to see people innovate. I actually think you should change nothing. I don't think layouts like HHKB, Alice, or Planck became classics because of IC. Invention requires some conviction. Be the leader and let others follow.

Now, apparently there are a number of people expressing some level of discontent. It could be the case that they just don't know how much they will love it when they give it 30 minutes (cue Steve Jobs). It could be the case that this layout won't work for them but will work for many other people. But every invention requires some early adopters. The MOQ needs to be hit. To convince people to share this risk, I don't think it's enough to say SCIENCE! I'm a scientist myself and sometimes it's not enough to generate trust.

I wonder whether it makes sense to go for a budget version of this keyboard first. You're likely to get more buy-ins if the price is low. If the layout does accumulate a reputation, I'm sure a premium version will sell. Another strategy is to send some prototypes to a number of influencers in the community and have them make some videos about the layout. I don't think your friends are the best sample to check external validity, scientifically speaking.

Moving forward, I wonder whether it's possible to collect data from the community so we can identify the clusters collectively. I imagine this can be done by letting people submit a video of themselves typing a long text, shot from a certain angle. I imagine all major layouts can be improved/optimized this way.

Cheers!

Offline MdotMaxson

  • Posts: 254
Iíd love to see someone try to argue against the ergonomics of this board. And if you do please bring adequate scientific journal or research papers in your defense because this guy put some god damn brain power into this. As someone with a few degrees myself (also I design surgical instruments for a living so medical industry is also my thing) I thoroughly loved the explanation you wrote out complete with sources. Also I read to the end where you thanked me for getting there and my only response is anyone who didnít make that far probably just has an IQ of sisterís dog. Iím in. Please. That curve is aggressive AF and I like it....

Offline MdotMaxson

  • Posts: 254
Also I sent you a PM. Not sure if would know to check them or not as Iíve personally never checked mine (I also know no one in their right mind would want to PM me so thereís that as well )

Offline alphabirth

  • Posts: 110
  • Location: Italy
It seems ironic that the keyboard community seems to have poor typing habits as compared to the general public, what with all the right-side 'B's and whatnot.   :))

Anyway, I was just thinking that, while probably not for this version, you might want to check out the Carpalx project: http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/.  It's applying an optimization algorithm to design a key layout based on an input dataset.  I've been meaning to try putting something together for myself to maybe start un-learning QWERTY, but haven't got around to it yet.  It would be really neat if it could account for the physical board layout too (I mean, I guess I could add that functionality myself).  Or vice versa--if your optimization algorithm for physical layout accounted for an optimized key layout... 

Offline Zeelobby

  • Posts: 737


It seems ironic that the keyboard community seems to have poor typing habits as compared to the general public, what with all the right-side 'B's and whatnot.   :))

...

It is pretty funny.

Gon: This keyboard is ergonomically optimized and it's layout is meant to break bad habits and reduce strain while touch typing.

Audience: Can we add some bad habits back in?

Offline the_real_shoes

  • Posts: 3
  • Location: CT, USA
I'd be so down if it had a right hand B and if you could do 2.25 -> 1 on the left space instead of 1 -> 2.25

Offline deepmail

  • Posts: 8
Taeha says "Interestingggg" and he wants to try it.

Offline ubmit

  • Posts: 23
Will there be an EU proxy? Please!!!
KFE


Offline Findecanor

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It seems ironic that the keyboard community seems to have poor typing habits as compared to the general public, what with all the right-side 'B's and whatnot.   :))
Maybe the keyboard community is more varied than you think...
I see posts about "key on the wrong side" everywhere there is a discussion on an ergonomic keyboard with any mainstream appeal.

But enthusiast forums have been the only places where I've seen requests for right-side 'B' or left-side 'Y' on columnar keyboards. :rolleyes:
Man must shape his tools lest they shape him
-- Arthur Miller

Offline gnho

  • Posts: 105
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I wonder what the statistics look like if we just sample 100 typing test videos on Youtube...

Offline Zeelobby

  • Posts: 737
Probably all over the place. The majority of people type horribly. Even some of the influencers of the hobby type in unorthodox (and sometimes terrifying) ways. Lol. Nathan does hit consistently high speeds and uses left b, so.... Good enough for me. I do wonder how much of this would have never been an issue if em7 and Alice hadn't made dual B such a thing.

Offline deepmail

  • Posts: 8
I'm a horrid typer, but I've been practicing touch typing in my spare time (not fast enough with it to use it normally right now, wouldn't get any work done if I did). That's partially why I'm interested in this board too. The main thing is the research-backed layout.

Offline rymnd6c28

  • Posts: 26
  • Location: IND
Welp this is just taste breaking keeb right here. I had A TASTE dude. Clean TKLs, 75%s, and a hard maybe for 65%. Ergo isn't even in the equation. But dayuumm.
« Last Edit: Thu, 25 June 2020, 22:10:59 by rymnd6c28 »

Offline Gondolindrim

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Taeha says "Interestingggg" and he wants to try it.

Sounds like we should send him one then

I informed Upas, let's see if we can
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline Gondolindrim

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    • My GitHub
It seems ironic that the keyboard community seems to have poor typing habits as compared to the general public, what with all the right-side 'B's and whatnot.   :))

Anyway, I was just thinking that, while probably not for this version, you might want to check out the Carpalx project: http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/.  It's applying an optimization algorithm to design a key layout based on an input dataset.  I've been meaning to try putting something together for myself to maybe start un-learning QWERTY, but haven't got around to it yet.  It would be really neat if it could account for the physical board layout too (I mean, I guess I could add that functionality myself).  Or vice versa--if your optimization algorithm for physical layout accounted for an optimized key layout...

I totally missed that project! Will take a look ASAP
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline Gondolindrim

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  • Posts: 394
  • Location: Gondolin
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Update 2:

We are working on revamping the case. The layout stays the same, but we took the feedback and are devising a more harmonic case that follows the layout better.
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline ExtraSaltyBS

  • Posts: 4
  • Location: USA
I know this is probably an impossible idea because the project is already so far through. But... I think to cut down on bezel size you should switch which side the lights and extra navigation keys are. I think the navigation keys on the right side of the board can go hand in hand with a normal board, and if someone chooses to use arrows instead of Ctrl and Alt. Additionally, what if the Cannon logo went in between the right space bar and the CtrlAlt/arrow key section? It's an idea that could potentially fill in that bare space. If not, maybe even adding an extra key could be useful.

Just some ideas I thought of. I'm guessing it's too late, but new ideas could always help. Love the design; I'm very interested.




TKC1800 . DSA Ice Cream

Offline hkhawk

  • Posts: 79
I've never liked that the 6 is on the left side in Alice style layouts (it's just wrong, haha, you're supposed to use your right index finger to type 6) but on this layout it seems especially egregious as Y, H, and N are all in basically a columnar layout. I think this would be awesome if 6 was on the right and the left side was a bit less staggered.

Offline bakuretsu

  • Posts: 76
I've never liked that the 6 is on the left side in Alice style layouts (it's just wrong, haha, you're supposed to use your right index finger to type 6) but on this layout it seems especially egregious as Y, H, and N are all in basically a columnar layout. I think this would be awesome if 6 was on the right and the left side was a bit less staggered.

100% agree about the 6. The positioning of everything else is completely correct when considering the proper way to type, so I don't get why the 6 is on the left side. Aesthetics? That goes against the whole concept of the board though.

Unless for some reason the typing lessons I took in school were correct about everything else except for which hand to use for 6.

Offline konstantin

  • Formerly constexpr
  • Posts: 1148
  • Location: Serbia
I've never liked that the 6 is on the left side in Alice style layouts (it's just wrong, haha, you're supposed to use your right index finger to type 6) but on this layout it seems especially egregious as Y, H, and N are all in basically a columnar layout. I think this would be awesome if 6 was on the right and the left side was a bit less staggered.

100% agree about the 6. The positioning of everything else is completely correct when considering the proper way to type, so I don't get why the 6 is on the left side. Aesthetics? That goes against the whole concept of the board though.

Unless for some reason the typing lessons I took in school were correct about everything else except for which hand to use for 6.

That depends on who you ask.



To illustrate my point, these are the first  two results for ďtouch typingĒ on Google Images.

On standard row stagger, the 6 key is physically closer to the left index finger, so you could argue that you should use your left hand for 6. Which, indeed, is what a lot of typists do. Hands do not follow the same stagger pattern as the keys do. If you had two right hands, they would, but as is, they don't, so the second image makes more sense imo/ime.


Edit: I think a lot of thought, time and effort has gone into developing this layout. Maybe we should focus our comments more on the other stuff, like the case design, cause there's a bigger chance that we can help improve that.

Personally I would like to see the outer and inner corners of the case reconciled. At the moment it seems like there's a big discrepancy between them.
« Last Edit: Fri, 26 June 2020, 00:37:33 by konstantin »

Offline Zilleon

  • Posts: 80
Count me in 100%

The only thing that concerns me about this kind of board is not being able to get one dues to limited units or something like that.

Hope this happens and I can get one :)

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Offline econeuler

  • Posts: 51
  • Location: Sweden
First, sorry about your friend  :(
Second, the most interesting IC, awesome job! Think it would be nicer without the page up/down keys to the left, but count me in regardless  :thumb:

Offline FunBox

  • Posts: 33
  • Location: US
    • Null
I had some of the same concerns as others about the B and the 6 being on the wrong sides but I feel like enough research has gone into this keyboard that I could simply alter my habits and the end result would be a more ergonomic/better typing experience. I know I'm sounding like a blindfolded fan boy but I don't know anyone else that might have researched this issue even half as much

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


Offline Aevyn

  • Posts: 58


I had some of the same concerns as others about the B and the 6 being on the wrong sides but I feel like enough research has gone into this keyboard that I could simply alter my habits and the end result would be a more ergonomic/better typing experience. I know I'm sounding like a blindfolded fan boy but I don't know anyone else that might have researched this issue even half as much

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk

While the 6 is incorrect on the left side, the B is meant to be hit with your left hand

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk


Offline Zeelobby

  • Posts: 737
It is fun to see how many people prefer one side to the other for B or 6, or claims that one is correct over the other.

It's definitely an interesting discussion, but imo kind of flawed. Touch typing patterns were created on a board with no curvature and with little scientific study beyond basic premises like each finger should reach the same amount of keys, or, whatever key is closer to one sides home row is the correct one (both assumptions assume ambidexterity). The Alice layout (and em7 before it) definitely didn't take any scientific studies into consideration when choosing sides. Just because certain things were done these ways before doesn't necessarily mean it's the most ergonomic solution (even the QWERTY layout itself). The "this is how I was taught as a kid" argument is a bad one.

We have to kind of throw these previous recommendations and misconceptions out the window. It's already been stated that the layout has a right handed preference because the majority of people are right handed and left handed individuals found it easier to adjust. It's not shocking then that placing the 6 on the right side might be the most ergonomic solution considering the increased dexterity and accuracy of the right hand for those who are right handed. In the end data models can't lie (though sample size does matter). And the way we think touch typing should be kind of has to be redefined when given a blank slate (even if this one does have some restrictions like being able to use a base kit, or sticking with the QWERTY layout carried over from typewriters' physical limitations).

Just sharing my 2 cents. Not trying to shut any discussion down. Definitely thought provoking.
« Last Edit: Fri, 26 June 2020, 07:01:37 by Zeelobby »

Offline FunBox

  • Posts: 33
  • Location: US
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I had some of the same concerns as others about the B and the 6 being on the wrong sides but I feel like enough research has gone into this keyboard that I could simply alter my habits and the end result would be a more ergonomic/better typing experience. I know I'm sounding like a blindfolded fan boy but I don't know anyone else that might have researched this issue even half as much

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk

While the 6 is incorrect on the left side, the B is meant to be hit with your left hand

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk
"Wrong" or "Incorrect" are strong words to use for this. As others have posted above and Zeelobby mentions. What is considered the right way has far more variables than simply "this I what I was taught" and so everyone else is wrong. There's a post in this thread that demonstrates this perfectly with the first 2 pictures on Google for touch typing being different.

I have not the time nor the energy to spend days researching specific ergonomic differences between one key being on the other side or not. This is why I was saying I would rather place my faith into someone who has clearly spent a lot more time looking into it than I ever will.
If this means I need to alter one or two things about the way I type then so be it

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


Offline TopreMoon

  • Posts: 23
Great design and amazing write-ups!

My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?

Offline FlitzDeelman

  • Posts: 71
Great design and amazing write-ups!

My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?
Your objections to the logo placement makes sense to me.

Iíd also like to see a Sagittarius logo, as you suggested.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Heist Morty

  • Posts: 23
  • Location: Seattle
  • Living la vida Topre
Another home run from gondo, can't wait to see this board come to fruition, Great work man.
awaiting custopre

Offline Bonsa

  • Posts: 36
  • Location: Belgium
Very sorry for your friend passing away.
The board looks amazing, but as a left handed person I can't feel this being more ergonomic than any other keyboard (I often have wrist strains due to the 'wrong' stagger of the left side of the keyboard, forcing me to bend my left hand very unnatural). I understand some cuts had to be made, nevertheless I'm hoping to see a left handed version in the future, although I don't know if there's enough support for that. I really appreciate all the work you've put in this design and the amount of patience you have. Your very detailed responses helped clarify some concerns.
As for the discussion of the B's, I type it with my left hand and I always learned to type it that way. I personally don't like the idea of having 2 B keys on a keyboard, I'd just stick with 1 and roll with it. It's different for the 6 key though. I hit it with either hand, depending on what hand is available first. But it's not a deal breaker, just nit-picking while I can.

Offline ThePanduuh

  • Posts: 32
  • Location: PA, USA
I like the layout, I like the research behind the layout, I'm stoked to see what research and optimization can do in terms of ergonomics. I love how there's a paper template to try the layout (seriously underrated thing). As I see, you have already taken into consideration the smoothness of the case. I agree with others that it should be more smooth, round, flowy. The layout looks like nice and round and flowy but the bottom just looks blocky. I am interested in seeing how a new design comes out of this.
Iron 165 SE | KBD8x MKII | Cypher | Lubrigante+Wonderland | KBD8x MKII (yes, 2 of these)

Offline Gondolindrim

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 394
  • Location: Gondolin
    • My GitHub
I know this is probably an impossible idea because the project is already so far through. But... I think to cut down on bezel size you should switch which side the lights and extra navigation keys are. I think the navigation keys on the right side of the board can go hand in hand with a normal board, and if someone chooses to use arrows instead of Ctrl and Alt. Additionally, what if the Cannon logo went in between the right space bar and the CtrlAlt/arrow key section? It's an idea that could potentially fill in that bare space. If not, maybe even adding an extra key could be useful.

Just some ideas I thought of. I'm guessing it's too late, but new ideas could always help. Love the design; I'm very interested.

We already have plans for that middle sector between the clusters; we are waiting on the new case design and prototype to take pictures.
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline Gondolindrim

  • Thread Starter
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  • Location: Gondolin
    • My GitHub
I've never liked that the 6 is on the left side in Alice style layouts (it's just wrong, haha, you're supposed to use your right index finger to type 6) but on this layout it seems especially egregious as Y, H, and N are all in basically a columnar layout. I think this would be awesome if 6 was on the right and the left side was a bit less staggered.

I've never liked that the 6 is on the left side in Alice style layouts (it's just wrong, haha, you're supposed to use your right index finger to type 6) but on this layout it seems especially egregious as Y, H, and N are all in basically a columnar layout. I think this would be awesome if 6 was on the right and the left side was a bit less staggered.

100% agree about the 6. The positioning of everything else is completely correct when considering the proper way to type, so I don't get why the 6 is on the left side. Aesthetics? That goes against the whole concept of the board though.

Unless for some reason the typing lessons I took in school were correct about everything else except for which hand to use for 6.

That depends on who you ask.

Show Image
Show Image


To illustrate my point, these are the first  two results for “touch typing” on Google Images.

On standard row stagger, the 6 key is physically closer to the left index finger, so you could argue that you should use your left hand for 6. Which, indeed, is what a lot of typists do. Hands do not follow the same stagger pattern as the keys do. If you had two right hands, they would, but as is, they don't, so the second image makes more sense imo/ime.


Edit: I think a lot of thought, time and effort has gone into developing this layout. Maybe we should focus our comments more on the other stuff, like the case design, cause there's a bigger chance that we can help improve that.

Personally I would like to see the outer and inner corners of the case reconciled. At the moment it seems like there's a big discrepancy between them.


I've never liked that the 6 is on the left side in Alice style layouts (it's just wrong, haha, you're supposed to use your right index finger to type 6) but on this layout it seems especially egregious as Y, H, and N are all in basically a columnar layout. I think this would be awesome if 6 was on the right and the left side was a bit less staggered.

100% agree about the 6. The positioning of everything else is completely correct when considering the proper way to type, so I don't get why the 6 is on the left side. Aesthetics? That goes against the whole concept of the board though.

Unless for some reason the typing lessons I took in school were correct about everything else except for which hand to use for 6.



I had some of the same concerns as others about the B and the 6 being on the wrong sides but I feel like enough research has gone into this keyboard that I could simply alter my habits and the end result would be a more ergonomic/better typing experience. I know I'm sounding like a blindfolded fan boy but I don't know anyone else that might have researched this issue even half as much

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk

While the 6 is incorrect on the left side, the B is meant to be hit with your left hand

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

There are four things here that we need to consider here.

The first of them being that touch typing is a technique invented and re-invented through use and trial by fire, and there is not a single template for touch typing. This respose sums it up:

I've never liked that the 6 is on the left side in Alice style layouts (it's just wrong, haha, you're supposed to use your right index finger to type 6) but on this layout it seems especially egregious as Y, H, and N are all in basically a columnar layout. I think this would be awesome if 6 was on the right and the left side was a bit less staggered.

100% agree about the 6. The positioning of everything else is completely correct when considering the proper way to type, so I don't get why the 6 is on the left side. Aesthetics? That goes against the whole concept of the board though.

Unless for some reason the typing lessons I took in school were correct about everything else except for which hand to use for 6.

That depends on who you ask.

Show Image
Show Image


To illustrate my point, these are the first  two results for “touch typing” on Google Images.

On standard row stagger, the 6 key is physically closer to the left index finger, so you could argue that you should use your left hand for 6. Which, indeed, is what a lot of typists do. Hands do not follow the same stagger pattern as the keys do. If you had two right hands, they would, but as is, they don't, so the second image makes more sense imo/ime.


Edit: I think a lot of thought, time and effort has gone into developing this layout. Maybe we should focus our comments more on the other stuff, like the case design, cause there's a bigger chance that we can help improve that.

Personally I would like to see the outer and inner corners of the case reconciled. At the moment it seems like there's a big discrepancy between them.

 The first versions of the Sagittarius layout were based on the technique, with columns and rows staggered in a way that the user would have an easier time touch typing. However we could not find any rigorous scientific evidence that could debunk or confirm the efficiency of touch typing, and the results we had were not promising really, so we just left the idea of basing ourselves in the touch typing technique. In this sense, we can't affirm with certainty that something is right or wrong ergonomically speaking because touch typists do it. What I can state firmly is that the Sagittarius layout does help and incentivize touch typing, giving some insight as to why the technique works. This however is pure result analysis and not a direct "touch typing is not scientifically proven to work". It's something more like: touch typing and the Sagittarius layout have a common feature, which is separate regions of the layout for each finger, allowing for muscle memory and less hand movement.

The second thing is to consider that the ultimate ergonomics are individual. If you feel comfortable with 6 on the left or right that's your personal preference and a legitimate claim. The 6 key was a very fluid problem in our design; we had to use a genetic algorithm to determine its best placement. Putting it on the left part was always the best option optimization-wise, and the people that used the layout confirmed that whichever side we put it, they felt more comfortable with the 6 on the left side.

And third, when we felt we hit a plateau we always searched for how the Microsoft Ergo did it: left B and left 6. This was a confirmation for us that both these keys should be in the left cluster, so that is how we did it.


Furthermore, bear in mind that the 6 in the right cluster overloads the number row of the right cluster.

Finally, the fourth one.

"Wrong" or "Incorrect" are strong words to use for this. As others have posted above and Zeelobby mentions. What is considered the right way has far more variables than simply "this I what I was taught" and so everyone else is wrong. There's a post in this thread that demonstrates this perfectly with the first 2 pictures on Google for touch typing being different.

I have not the time nor the energy to spend days researching specific ergonomic differences between one key being on the other side or not. This is why I was saying I would rather place my faith into someone who has clearly spent a lot more time looking into it than I ever will.
If this means I need to alter one or two things about the way I type then so be it

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk

 I am very uncomfortable in attributing judgement to a typing technique as "wrong" or "right". This community is based on personal taste and customization; if there was a "right" and a "wrong" way of doing it, we wouldn't have so many layouts and options around.
« Last Edit: Sat, 27 June 2020, 14:36:53 by Gondolindrim »
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline Gondolindrim

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  • Posts: 394
  • Location: Gondolin
    • My GitHub
Great design and amazing write-ups!

My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?

Great design and amazing write-ups!

My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?
Your objections to the logo placement makes sense to me.

I’d also like to see a Sagittarius logo, as you suggested.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You will be surprised. There is a Sagittarius logo on Sagittarius, but you can't see it. Yet.
« Last Edit: Sat, 27 June 2020, 14:21:01 by Gondolindrim »
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline Gondolindrim

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    • My GitHub
Another home run from gondo, can't wait to see this board come to fruition, Great work man.

A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline Gondolindrim

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 394
  • Location: Gondolin
    • My GitHub
Very sorry for your friend passing away.
The board looks amazing, but as a left handed person I can't feel this being more ergonomic than any other keyboard (I often have wrist strains due to the 'wrong' stagger of the left side of the keyboard, forcing me to bend my left hand very unnatural). I understand some cuts had to be made, nevertheless I'm hoping to see a left handed version in the future, although I don't know if there's enough support for that. I really appreciate all the work you've put in this design and the amount of patience you have. Your very detailed responses helped clarify some concerns.
As for the discussion of the B's, I type it with my left hand and I always learned to type it that way. I personally don't like the idea of having 2 B keys on a keyboard, I'd just stick with 1 and roll with it. It's different for the 6 key though. I hit it with either hand, depending on what hand is available first. But it's not a deal breaker, just nit-picking while I can.

The left or right handed discussion is a big issue here. We can maybe develop a left-handed version sometime, but I wonder if this would be viable or even reach MOQ. We can try though.

For the 6 key discussion, see the above comment.
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline hangul

  • Posts: 5
I can't wait to read your paper.

Offline dvorcol

  • Posts: 1355
  • Location: Michigan
Great design and amazing write-ups!

My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?

Great design and amazing write-ups!

My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?
Your objections to the logo placement makes sense to me.

Iíd also like to see a Sagittarius logo, as you suggested.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You will be surprised. There is a Sagittarius logo on Sagittarius, but you can't see it. Yet.

Careful inspection of the PCB hints at a location for the Sagittarius logo.
More

Offline Gondolindrim

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 394
  • Location: Gondolin
    • My GitHub
Great design and amazing write-ups!

My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?

Great design and amazing write-ups!

My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?
Your objections to the logo placement makes sense to me.

Iíd also like to see a Sagittarius logo, as you suggested.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You will be surprised. There is a Sagittarius logo on Sagittarius, but you can't see it. Yet.

Careful inspection of the PCB hints at a location for the Sagittarius logo.
More
Show Image

ssshhh ssshhh
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline FlitzDeelman

  • Posts: 71
[IC] Sagittarius, a gasket-mount optimized ergonomic layout custom keyboard
« Reply #199 on: Sun, 28 June 2020, 00:48:15 »
Great design and amazing write-ups!

My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?

Great design and amazing write-ups!

My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?
Your objections to the logo placement makes sense to me.

Iíd also like to see a Sagittarius logo, as you suggested.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You will be surprised. There is a Sagittarius logo on Sagittarius, but you can't see it. Yet.

Careful inspection of the PCB hints at a location for the Sagittarius logo.
More
Show Image

ssshhh ssshhh
TOO LATE!! Now I know.