Author Topic: Bakeneko 65  (Read 8981 times)

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Offline kkatano

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Bakeneko 65
« on: Sun, 05 July 2020, 05:38:35 »
Update 11/9/2020
Restart project and change thread title
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=107316.msg2977916#msg2977916

Update 11/3/2020
About my mistakes
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=107316.msg2975513#msg2975513

Important 11/2/2020

Please read this comment. I decided to Keep all files private because my fault in this projects Lisence problem.
If you are considering GB or sale using my files, please contact me or Elaine.
Geekhack PM or reddit:u/kkatano or Discord: kkatano#2078

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=107316.msg2974824#msg2974824



Original post
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This project is a special homage to the OTD 356 Mini and TGR x Singa UNIKORN 60. I plan to make a 60% keyboard with a gasket mount and CNC aluminum unibody case. The plate is fixed to the case only by O-ring friction, like UNIKORN.

I also want to make an acrylic sandwich board as a prototype or low cost version. That's also because I just like acrylic. I don't know how difficult this challenge is, but I will try it just for fun.

Has anyone ever tried designing a DIY keyboard with an O-ring gasket mount? I want to hear about your experience and share the mine.

I start by testing some variations of O-rings.
I'll go little by little steadily.
« Last Edit: Mon, 09 November 2020, 08:32:23 by kkatano »

Offline Applet

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - Open source gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 05 July 2020, 09:02:55 »
Very interesting, excited to see how the case turns out  ;D Thanks for keeping it open source! :thumb:

Online LightningXI

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - Open source gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 05 July 2020, 14:51:49 »
Slow and steady wins the race. Best of luck!

Offline kkatano

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - Open source gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 10 July 2020, 07:14:13 »
Applet, LightningXI, Thank you for your reply!

I have started designing the case. The first version is likely to be as simple as KBDfans Tofu.

246904-0

246906-1

246908-2

And I ordered an acrylic case to check the concept and fit of the O-ring mount. When it arrives, test the case dimensions and O-ring combination.

Offline kkatano

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - Open source gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 12 July 2020, 01:44:50 »
I did some testing with a 3D printed case. Due to the size of my 3D printer, I split the case into two parts. I checked if the O-ring gasket mount fits this case. It worked, as the picture below shows. It was fixed firmly without screwing between the PCB and the case. The PCB and plate will not drop when the case is turned upside down and rocked.

The PCB I designed for this project haven't been manufactured yet, so I used my own DZ60 and kbdfans aluminum plates. The actual PCB has a notch for the case to contact the O-ring, but the DZ60 does not. So this test is not perfect. Once the PCB is manufactured, I need to make sure that there is enough space between the PCB and the case. However, it was the best thing that it was possible to confirm that the plate and PCB could be fixed without using the plate only by the pressure of the O-ring.

I will update the detailed sizes of the O-rings and the results of trying each size later.

247075-0

247077-1

247079-2

247081-3

247083-4

247085-5

247087-6

247089-7
« Last Edit: Sun, 12 July 2020, 01:52:39 by kkatano »

Offline immaphantomlol

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - Open source gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 13 July 2020, 03:16:23 »
I really dig this. Iím working on a 65% and TKL o-ring gasket sandwich. Lmk if youíre interested in checking it out and I can send you the step files.

Offline kkatano

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - Open source gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 13 July 2020, 06:31:20 »
I really dig this. Iím working on a 65% and TKL o-ring gasket sandwich. Lmk if youíre interested in checking it out and I can send you the step files.

Thank you for your suggestions. I'm interested in your great work, as I'm trying to make a TKL version in a future build. I'm glad to meet a friend who challenges O-ring mount. I will PM you.
« Last Edit: Mon, 13 July 2020, 06:33:52 by kkatano »

Offline JCraftCables

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - Open source gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 13 July 2020, 08:21:24 »
Thanks for sharing, that's really quick progress there! Looking forward to see the finished product :)

Meanwhile, what are the key benefits that you see from such a mounting system?

Offline kkatano

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - Open source gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 14 July 2020, 11:48:23 »
Thanks for sharing, that's really quick progress there! Looking forward to see the finished product :)

Meanwhile, what are the key benefits that you see from such a mounting system?

Thanks JCraftCables.

In my experience, It makes a bit softer typing feeling and less fatigue especially long typing session. And I think it makes a better typing sound. However, the sound is subjective and many factors other than how it is attached affect it.

As for the keyboard I'm making now, it can be fixed without screws, so it's easy to replace the PCB ;D
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 July 2020, 11:50:37 by kkatano »

Offline joecoolbob

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - Open source gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 14 July 2020, 16:54:30 »
Nice work! I'm also working on a 60% oring mount but I'm working on something a little different but lets see how that works out. Looking forward to the final product
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Offline kkatano

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - Open source gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 15 July 2020, 10:56:26 »
Thanks joecoolbob, I'm looking forward to seeing your board!

I found a great work by maartenwut today. I decided to change the dimensions of my case to be compatible with plain 60-flex-edition. I will get a plain 60-flex-edition and test it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/hriue1/fits_the_unikorn_has_flex_open_source_on_github/
« Last Edit: Wed, 15 July 2020, 11:03:27 by kkatano »

Offline joecoolbob

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - Open source gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 15 July 2020, 20:37:29 »
btw where did you get your gaskets? I hear that o-ring.com only has about 70a which is a hard o-ring compared to the one offered in unikorn.
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Offline kkatano

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - Open source gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 15 July 2020, 21:03:19 »
btw where did you get your gaskets? I hear that o-ring.com only has about 70a which is a hard o-ring compared to the one offered in unikorn.

I get it from a local manu in Japan.
http://www.sakura-seal.co.jp/

They sell O-rings of various standards such as AS568 and JIS, and materials such as nitrile, silicon, urethane, etc.
They can make it from 30a to 90a durometer. However, 30a requires a special order and price, so I try nitrile and silicone with 50a and 70a. They are available for around $1 to $6 each.
« Last Edit: Wed, 15 July 2020, 21:11:01 by kkatano »

Offline kkatano

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - Open source gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 25 August 2020, 07:39:55 »
Some updates.

Case

Changed it to consist of the minimum parts. Abolish brass weight due to manufacturing cost and simplicity. As a result, the hole on the bottom of the case will always remain open, but this is a compromise in design.

250300-0

250302-1

250304-2

250306-3

250308-4

250310-5

USB Connectivity

Make PCB and case compatible with ai03's Unified Daughterboard and maartenwut's USB-C daughterboard. Also Along with this, the USB port on the PCB will be abolished.


O-ring gasket

After some testing, I decided to use a 50a duro silicone ring.

  • Material: VMQ-50
  • Size: AS568-262 / AS568-263 (Both fit well on the PCB and plate)

I also considered the 30a duro, but I didn't choose it because it's expensive. Even with 50a duro, can get a soft feeling enough.

65% version

I'm also working on the 65%. It's created with the same concept as 60% and only changes the form factor.

Offline Onnimar

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - Open source gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 25 August 2020, 09:45:39 »
I like it. I'm interested in seeing how this turns out! :thumb:

Was just wonder what the purpose for the holes at the bottom of the case? If you ain't going to be using a weight can't you just remove the holes entirely?
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 August 2020, 11:19:06 by Onnimar »

Offline coarse

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - Open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 25 August 2020, 10:45:27 »
oh wow, this isnt what i imagined when you mentioned gasket mount! really curious how the whole board feels like.

great work! would definitely join a gb if there happens to be one in the future.

Offline kkatano

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - Open source gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 27 August 2020, 07:59:05 »
oh wow, this isnt what i imagined when you mentioned gasket mount! really curious how the whole board feels like.

great work! would definitely join a gb if there happens to be one in the future.
coarse, thanks. I will consider whether to run GB :cool:

I like it. I'm interested in seeing how this turns out! :thumb:

Was just wonder what the purpose for the holes at the bottom of the case? If you ain't going to be using a weight can't you just remove the holes entirely?

Thanks! Watch this to find out how hole works.

« Last Edit: Thu, 27 August 2020, 08:01:59 by kkatano »

Offline kkatano

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - An open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 12 September 2020, 23:10:00 »
Updated original post and the project page. I've added some prototype photos to the page so check it out if you're interested in it ;)
https://kkatano.github.io/bakeneko-60/

 I'm recording typing sounds now, and I'll upload them later.



Offline Applet

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - An open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 13 September 2020, 10:25:06 »
Looks great! Looking forward to the typing test  :cool:

Offline icemountainguy

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - An open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 18 September 2020, 13:41:30 »
Glad someone is finally doing this, really looking forward to seeing where this goes!
Hm, maybe the holes at the bottom could be smaller or have some sort of plugs?

Offline kkatano

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - An open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 18 September 2020, 20:46:05 »
Thanks guys!

Hm, maybe the holes at the bottom could be smaller or have some sort of plugs?

Thanks for suggesting cool ideas! As you said hole sizes can be improved I think. For holes, some other ideas were also suggested on reddit post, check it out.

I consider whether to change holes in the next version. Possible that this hole will remain :rolleyes:

Offline kkatano

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - An open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 18 September 2020, 21:06:08 »
There are some people designing O-ring mount keyboards here, so I'd like to share this.

Soft plates such as plastic material can easily distort when it be mounted. I tested with nylon and polycarbonate. I think polypropylene and POM will give the same result. It seems that you need to some devise when using those.

Pics below are nylon plate.



« Last Edit: Fri, 18 September 2020, 23:29:10 by kkatano »

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - An open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 20 September 2020, 18:02:48 »
does this work with standard pcb like gh60? I'd love to be able to use one without a daughterboard.
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Offline kkatano

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - An open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 20 September 2020, 19:24:16 »
does this work with standard pcb like gh60? I'd love to be able to use one without a daughterboard.

No, GH60-ish common PCB is not compatible.

Offline Paragon

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - An open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 21 September 2020, 08:53:38 »
is it recommended to use clip in stabs? I remember reading somewhere that the o ring has a better fit along the edges.

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - An open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 21 September 2020, 11:23:24 »
does this work with standard pcb like gh60? I'd love to be able to use one without a daughterboard.

No, GH60-ish common PCB is not compatible.

Thank you, friend ^_^
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Offline kkatano

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - An open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 21 September 2020, 13:50:40 »
is it recommended to use clip in stabs? I remember reading somewhere that the o ring has a better fit along the edges.

Yes, I also recommend the same. Clip-in stabs works better. For Screw-in stabs, the O-ring and case fits too tightly but It works.

Offline kkatano

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - An open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 21 September 2020, 13:56:24 »
Uploaded some typing sounds. Will upload the FR4 plate version later.

Cherry MX Red and Polycarbonate Plate


Tealios v2 and Aluminum Plate



Offline ggggggg

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - An open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #28 on: Sun, 11 October 2020, 03:05:32 »
Can you elaborate on your o-ring thought process? Did you pick one where the o-ring circumference = plate circumference, or did you stretch out a smaller one? Did you pick a 4mm thick gasket or a thicker one that you compressed more?

Offline kkatano

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - An open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 13 October 2020, 07:54:08 »
Hello ggggggg, thanks for your question.

There's a lot to write about O-ring. But now I don't have enough time to write everything about it, so will answer your question directly.

Did you pick one where the o-ring circumference = plate circumference, or did you stretch out a smaller one?

Stretched out a smaller one. You should choose an O-ring that is smaller than the outer circumference of the plate. It will not work with the same perimeter length as the plate.

I started with the size of the O-rings used in Unikorn and 356 mini. I found out that they use an O-ring of a size called AS568-262. The inner diameter is 177.39 mm and the outer diameter is 184.45 mm. Their hardness is probably 30 duro.

I tried those sizes and around them. I tried a combination of several hardnesses and thicknesses.
It would be nice to be able to calculate the right size with simple logic, but unfortunately there are many things to consider. For example, The harder the O-ring, the larger the size you should choose.

Did you pick a 4mm thick gasket or a thicker one that you compressed more?

I picked 3.53mm thick O-ring. I also tried 4mm, but I didn't choose it because the friction with the case was too strong.


« Last Edit: Tue, 13 October 2020, 08:01:24 by kkatano »

Offline ggggggg

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - An open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #30 on: Thu, 22 October 2020, 07:10:50 »
Thank you for the reply, I picked up some ō3.53mm gasket, and am chronicling my misadventures over on Keebtalk.

Offline essem

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - An open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #31 on: Sun, 01 November 2020, 20:04:50 »
This looks awesome! I noticed the github repo has been taken down. Have you moved these elsewhere? Would love to see if I can build one of these next.

Offline kkatano

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - An open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #32 on: Sun, 01 November 2020, 20:48:57 »
Hello everyone, I'm sorry for causing this things.

It turns out that there is a difference between me and Elaine regarding the perception of the license for this project. I'm talking to Elaine about this. I decided to Keep all files private until the issue is resolved.

Most important thing is that Elaine has no fault. It's my fault that I didn't ask her about Bakeneko license in detail and didn't ask more detailed review.

Please keep to respect SINGA and Unikorn.

If you are considering GB or sale using my files, please contact me or Elaine.
Geekhack PM or reddit:u/kkatano or Discord: kkatano#2078
« Last Edit: Sun, 01 November 2020, 22:54:34 by kkatano »

Offline kkatano

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - An open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 03 November 2020, 05:56:14 »
Update on recent issues.

First of all, my apologies to Elaine and Yukti. And I'm sorry for disappointing and annoying those who supported Bakeneko, tried to build it, and those who are planning GB. My apologies to all these people.

I don't think many people do stupid things like me, but I'll publish my mistakes so that this community doesn't repeat the same mistakes.

I share here the statements and facts that Elaine wrote.

Quote
1. In the beginning, kkatano approached us to ask permission to design a tray mount 60 exactly like the unikorn and to open source it.

2. I said okay based on these requirements: to make it not a 1:1 copy exterior and interior. you can use the mounting idea because it was based of the otd 356 mini.

3. He sent me drafts and I said okay, and then silence for a couple months.

4. Yesterday 1/11/2020, I find out what was happening, so I contacted kkatano, and asked him why he didnt consult us before releasing it because the problem here in lies in the licensing he uploaded.

5. We allowed him to basically clone the 1:1 mount style based on the assumption on a open source personal license. You can 3d print it,I dont care, make a one off I dont care. From our conversations honestly, it really did seem like a personal project. and it my mistake for not being clear with him. If i had known that it would be open source for commercial use, id would just ask him to change it not be a 1:1 clone.

6. So I asked him to take it down because, it was not agreed upon. If he asked me and showed me the license, I would asked him to change it

7. I dont care about the visual similarities, cause there are only so many ways you can make a rectangle.

8. Its just not very nice that the permission we gave to kkatano to open source it is blatantly being used to profit off.

9. I wish kkatano would have approached us before he uploaded it to github. Then I would have just told him to change it slightly


Next, I'll keep a record here of what I did and what I should have done.



# What I did

When asking for permission to Elaine at first, I asked like "Is it OK to make it open source?".
Did not clearly state the specific license name, purpose to make it open source, and expected use.

# What I should have done

Clarify those details first.

----

# What I did

I didn't confirm the meaning of the word "to make it not a 1:1 copy exterior and interior" that Elaine said, and interpreted it with my own thoughts.
I misunderstood that it's enough if all parts of the keyboard does not match exactly. She meant that they shouldn't match even if only partially. In my design, Unikorn's important and unique part, gasket pillars position of the mounting system, match exactly.
The gasket pillars in my first version are different from Unikorn, but some changes were made to make it compatible with the plain-60 flex edition. By making that change, the position of the gasket pillars matched Unikorn.

# What I should have done

I should have checked the meaning of the words more carefully, and asked repeatedly if necessary.

----

# What I did

I did not request a detailed review of the finished work. I think calmly now, it's insane.

# What I should have done

Request a review of STEP files and drawings of the finished work.

----

# What I did

I didn't contact her when publishing on Github. It's not just a mistake, it's a lack of human etiquette. When she said OK during the review, I thought it was okay to proceed with the project to the end.
Honestly, I thought I was caring for her. I didn't want to bother her busy, so I was trying to do with minimal communication. That caused more big trouble to her. This is completely wrong.

# What I should have done

I should have always communicated with her at the key points of the project.



Finally, I will write about the future of this project. I am considering whether to redesign the mount system and continue the project, or to end the project as it is. I haven't come to a conclusion yet, but in any case I will consult with Elaine to decide. I will update here once it is decided.

Thank you for reading this.

Offline Applet

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - An open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 03 November 2020, 06:23:23 »
Sad to hear about the issues, miscommunications and misunderstandings happen. I really liked the project and loved the fact that it was open sourced. I added the the same mounting cutouts on my PCB's (like on the plain60) in the hopes that it could become a "standard". Will be interesting to see how it proceeds
« Last Edit: Tue, 03 November 2020, 06:25:00 by Applet »

Offline kkatano

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Re: Bakeneko 60 - An open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 09 November 2020, 08:13:24 »
I decided to continue the project. I'm working on a design change right now. I haven't decided on the details yet, but I consulted with Elaine about the design change policy, and she accepted my decision.

Here are some policies at the moment.

* Change the mounting method. Still use O-ring as its friction to fix PCB and Plate in case, but eliminate all gasket pillars. Stick something like EVA foam or silicone sheet on the PCB instead of the pillars. Or simply place the O-ring on the bottom of the case to support PCB.

* Eliminate the two holes in the bottom. From my experience, you can remove the PCB by simply grabbing the keycap and lifting it slowly.

* Make the layout only 65%. Will not make 60%. Will rename this thread according to this policy.

* Make it open source again with Elaine's approval. If I eliminate the gasket pillars, It's enough different from Unikorn so that may be okay I think.

More details will be updated in the future.

Offline hanya

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Re: Bakeneko 65 - An open source O-ring gasket mount keyboard
« Reply #36 on: Mon, 09 November 2020, 08:31:36 »
Glad to hear the project is continued.

I'll remove piller for gasket mount from custom 60% split electrostatic capacitive keyboard too.
Maybe silicone tube laying under PCB would work as soft dumper. I would try it
PFU HHKB JP, Sanwa MA-TB38 trackball