Author Topic: [IC-2] Paragon – 75% gasket mount w encoder | Artisan Knob Progress Pics  (Read 78707 times)

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Offline r00dy

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Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder

259234-0

NOTE: This IC form is different than the original IC form. Please fill out the form if you are still interested in the Paragon!
IC-2 Form: IC Form 2
Join our Discord: here

Renders of Updated Design
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Render of Updated Internals

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Render of Updated Weight

259239-2

259241-3



Fresh Renders
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Render of the Paragon on GMK Iceberg courtesy of Nathan

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Render of the Paragon on GMK Hammerhead courtesy of Keebwerk

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Render of the Paragon on GMK Inukuma courtesy of Influenced

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Vendors, Pricing, Quantity, Format
Price: $460 USD
Format: FCFS
US: Vala Supply (300 units)
Canada: Deskhero (50 units)
EU: Candykeys (50 units)
Asia: Ilumkb (50 units)
Oceania: DailyClack (50 units)

Timeline Update
We have partnered with KeyLabs Keycaps for artisan knobs. Prototyping on the knobs is currently underway. Paragon prototypes have been ordered and should arrive by end of end of January, GB will hopefully commence in Q1 2021.

PCB Features and Updates
Hotswap PCB: NO SOLDERING REQUIRED (encoder will be soldered directly by factory), supports ANSI
Soldering PCB: ANSI, ISO, Split-Spacebar, Split-Backspace, Stepped Capslock
QMK and Via Compatible, has ESD Protection
Uses ai03's open-source Unified Daughterboard

Case Features and Updates
Case material: Aluminum, brass weight with PVD finish
Plate: 3 mm; brass or aluminum featuring keebwerk plate analysis (separate ISO and ANSI plates offered)
Mounting System: Gasket Mount featuring revamped internals and keebwerk gaskets
Angle: 7 degrees
Case Colors: E-white, Black, & Deep Navy
Knob Materials/Colors: Brass PVD finish
Manufacturer: Keebwerk
Weight: 3.3 kg or approximately 7.27 lbs as per our estimation

PCB Layouts
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Hotswap PCB Layout:
256975-7

Soldering PCB Layout:
256977-8



More Renders:
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IFK GRAEN courtesy of Keebwerk

257133-9

GMK Space Cadet courtesy of Oblotzky

257135-10

KAT Space Dust courtesy of PseudoLlama

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GMK Calm Depths courtesy of Oblotzky

257139-12



Common Requests in the IC Regarding Layouts (FAQ):
Can you add a horizontally offset cluster?
At the end of the day, there’s only so many suggestions we can take while retaining the identity of the board. We’ve decided that symmetry and the even bezel fundamentally define this board and set it apart. While we understand that this might be a dealbreaker for some of you, we feel that adding a cluster would change the identity of the board and of course the number of SKUs for the top body of the board.
Can you add WKL?
Standard WKL layouts have blockers and as we just mentioned, we’ve decided against blockers; however, we have decided to support a layout that supports two mods on both sides to preserve the WKL functionality without the blockers (see new renders above). We felt like this was an amenable solution because it did not fundamentally alter the seamless aesthetic of the board.
Can you add an offset arrow cluster?
The mounting system is embedded within the bezel. To use an offset cluster, we would have to redesign the board from the ground up. Additionally, the offset arrow cluster board would be larger, so adding an entirely larger board as a SKU which would be both expensive to develop and sell due to the entirely new SKU. We also didn’t like the idea of the spacing and symmetry being compromised but the feasibility of implementing an offset cluster was what really eliminated this option from contention.

Original IC:
More
248005-13

Table of Contents
1. Introduction
2. Design, Specifications, and Renders
3. GroupBuy Details
4. FAQ
5. Additional Renders
6. Credits

1. Introduction:
The Paragon is a 75% keyboard featuring a unique gasket mounting system and rotary encoder. In designing a keyboard, we sought to incorporate elements from previous groupbuy designs including some elements we believed to be missing. We were inspired by the aesthetics of the 7V, Rama Koyu and U80-A (please see FAQ), the Satisfaction 75, and the mounting system of the Volcano 660 to create our first board. The Paragon weighs in at just over six pounds boasting a seven-degree angle while the name succinctly encapsulates our desire to design a board that we could consider perfect: the Paragon of keyboards.

2. Design:
We envisioned an elegant, 75% keyboard that bridged the gap between form and function. A succinct expression of our design language would most aptly be characterized by the phrase: “the intersection of a straight line and a curve”. We found sharp edges and corners to be aesthetically displeasing and avoided them via the implementation of a curved bezel. The uniform outer bezel adds weight to our design while allowing us to maintain a bottom-mounted system that remains invisible while the board is seated upon a table at a 7-degree typing angle. The seamless exterior in tandem with the wide, uniform bezel provide the foundation upon which the board was constructed.
248007-14
The plate layout was designed to minimize spaces while providing a semblance of symmetry to the board. We determined that a split arrow cluster would require spacing and offsets that conflicted with the aesthetic of the board. We moved the arrow cluster within the primary cluster such that the uniform spacing may preserve the symmetry present within the bezel. In determining which layouts to support, we determined that a single plate and PCB ought to support as many layouts as possible to reduce the number of SKUs. The Paragon supports split-backspace, split-spacebar, stepped caps lock, ISO, and ANSI all in a single plate and PCB scheme.
Link to Layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/712343c9458f14c300bab919bff6c8bc]here
248009-15
The PCB was designed to complement the gasket mounted system. The flexibility of the PCB in tandem with the gaskets further supports a soft typing experience. The centered USB-C port preserves the symmetrical spacing maintained throughout the board. Our primary gripe with most boards was the lack of a rotary encoder hence we prioritized the implementation of one in the Paragon. The rotary encoder only supports rotational functionality due to our desire to maintain the longevity of the PCB. We felt that increased functionality of the rotary encoder including pressing and joystick-like movements would only compromise the longevity of the PCB while providing functionality that was achievable via mapping.
In the spirit of maintaining a uniform aesthetic, we determined that a bottom-mounted system would allow us to conceal the mounting system entirely. The lower portion of the case is held in place by eleven M3 screws while the weight is held in place by four M4 screws. The weight is embedded within the lower portion of the case such that it is once again concealed from the outside to provide a seamless appearance.
We sought to implement a gasket system that provided a soft typing experience while preserving the longevity of both the gaskets and the board. The force of a keystroke is distributed amongst twenty-four individual gaskets placed around the edges of the plate; while the separation of the gaskets allowed us to implement the mounting system more easily, it created a unique problem in the sense that the custom gaskets would no longer be easily replaceable. In prioritizing the longevity of the board after the lifespan of the initial gaskets, we determined that a gasket, 3D printed from flexible filament, would allow us to future-proof the board as the availability of 3D printers appears to be increasing. The flexible filament gaskets provide a structurally unique alternative to traditional rubber gaskets while allowing us to replace intricate gaskets in a quick and inexpensive manner. After the boards have been delivered, the gasket files will become publicly available such that anyone may produce new gaskets after the initial ones wear out.
248011-16
The weight and knob were designed to extend the elegance we envisioned within the Paragon. The weight is etched with a simple Paragon as depicted below while the knob features a rounded bezel similar to the edges of the case.
248013-17
248015-18
248110-19

3. Group Buy Details
We currently estimate the cost will range between the $400-700 range depending upon the manufacturers, vendors (if we use one), and interest level. We will mostly likely host the sale ourselves without a vendor. We personally dislike limited production runs and would like to make this an unlimited group buy for a month but the requisite demand would need to appear in the Interest Check form to justify an unlimited group buy with vendors. If the interest level from the IC falls short of our threshold for an open group buy, there will be a smaller limited run (~200 units) in a raffle style draw without a vendor (Note the price will be higher for the raffle than an open group buy).
**Update We're talking to vendors and manufacturer
IC Form: https://forms.gle/7KBCNHMop5kbuwaMA
Discord: https://discord.gg/RznZS4d

4. FAQ
Can you add support for other layouts?
No, we would like to produce as few SKUs as possible to keep the price down and we have supported a reasonable number of layouts already.
Will there be a hotswap PCB?
***Update We have decided to add ANSI hotswap
What colors are you considering?
We will be producing both an anodized matte black and e-white version. A possible third color is dependent on the results of the IC although we are leaning towards blue at the moment. Again, we would like to limit the SKUs.
Is a knob included?
Yes, a knob will be included in the same colors offered for the cases (you can mix and match case and knob colors though). We may also offer a brass knob but that has yet to be determined as well.
Will there be RGB lighting?
No, we believe that RGB lighting detracts from the elegance of the board.
Will there be a polycarbonate version?
No, again, we believe that polycarbonate detracts from the elegance of the board.
Is there QMK compatibility?
Yes.
Can you bring the price down?
Depends on if you fill out the IC form.
Is this board a copy of the Rama Koyu and U80a?
**UPDATE We reached out to RAMA Works regarding the concerns of the community; they had no issues with our board's design and wished us well so the board's group buy will run with the current design aesthetic.
4. Timeline/TODO
Order First Prototype: (In Progress: Talking to Manufacturers)
Update Design Based on Prototype and IC Form
Order Second Prototype
Finalize Design and Groupbuy Format
Order Third Prototype
Groupbuy

5. Additional Renders
248017-20
248019-21
248021-22

6. Credits and Acknowledgements
We would like to thank BirgusLatro for his guidance throughout the entire design and review process along with his advice for manufacturing. This keyboard would not have been possible without him. We would also like to thank JJ48_24 for his contributions to the case along with jtallbean for his contributions to the PCB. We would like to thank ImperfectLink and CJT for the renders.


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[url=https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=107743.0][img width=213 height=120]https://i.imgur.com/CBMXMuy.png[/img][/url]
« Last Edit: Thu, 21 January 2021, 11:32:59 by r00dy »

Offline Kokaloo

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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 16:59:57 »
is it possible for a minimum post count for IC threads be implemented

Offline S3LQ

  • Posts: 237
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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 17:09:07 »
I'm in love! I'm in for one!

Offline TheMilkmen

  • Posts: 34
  • Location: MD, USA
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 17:12:24 »
is it possible for a minimum post count for IC threads be implemented
Albeit that I agree with you on the post count for ICs, this is way better than any of the half-assed ICs that we have been seeing pop up here in the past few months.

Either way, I do think that there is promise for this board, even with this being the first post that the account has. Hopefully the proto shows some good information.

Offline war40ck

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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 17:13:27 »
Rama inspiration + Sat75 knob = RAMAGON75
Tell me why...

Offline Kinesiologist

  • Posts: 123
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 17:28:43 »
this looks awesome. I submitted the IC form.

please consider adding ESD protection on the PCB. Thanks

Offline Jyobah

  • Posts: 35
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 17:45:21 »
is it possible for a minimum post count for IC threads be implemented

If someone doesn’t like the IC post just move on. I’ve seen lately a lot of people mocking others just because they haven’t been on said platform for years and or makes posts.

Offline supern00b

  • Posts: 11
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 18:09:03 »
Any chance that the design might change to have the arrow cluster separated?

Offline Tribeq

  • Posts: 2
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 18:11:18 »
I love the design. I would also love to see ESD protection added to the PCB.

Offline bisoromi

  • Formerly Duwang
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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 18:12:21 »
Where was this designed??
(credits to Kokaloo)

Offline IOVERCALLHISTIOCYTES

  • Posts: 1243
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 18:13:27 »
Yep.

Let’s argue about that blue color.

Offline PikaJoyce

  • Posts: 131
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 18:21:42 »
Where was this designed??
Where in the valley?

Offline macomac

  • Posts: 14
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 18:23:07 »
Looks awesome! Excited to see the prototype.



Offline r00dy

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  • Posts: 44
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 18:23:20 »
is it possible for a minimum post count for IC threads be implemented

In regards to a minimum post count, we felt that a well written and expressed IC would lend credence to this post. We've tried to be as transparent about the design as possible and our reddit presence is verifiable as we've been around much longer and posted much more on the reddit keyboard forums.

I love the design. I would also love to see ESD protection added to the PCB.

Thanks for the suggestion we'll look into it!

Where was this designed??

In regards to the origins of the design, we're both from Silicon Valley California as stated in the IC. The Designed In Silicon Valley text is engraved under the Paragon logo in the weight. We feel that the technology and design industry in Silicon Valley have influenced us greatly and we wanted to represent that on the board.

Also the discord embedded URL didn't work but if anyone wants to copy and paste it into their browser, the URL should work. Thanks for all the feedback and responses.

Offline r00dy

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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 18:24:54 »
Where was this designed??

San Jose to be specific.

Offline DillonHightower

  • Formerly DillonHighsmith
  • Posts: 308
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 19:24:08 »
lookin good !!!
            

Offline Bitmxp

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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 19:37:15 »
Amazing board! Good luck with the group buy  :thumb:

Offline jooobe

  • Posts: 216
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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 20:43:40 »
Nice

Sent from my SM-G988U1 using Tapatalk


Offline Coby

  • Posts: 18
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 22:01:12 »
Add wkl layout  :p really will make this board perfect as an option

Offline UberB

  • Posts: 3
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 22:21:21 »
Looks great! Is there any way the bezels could be thinner?

Offline zoo

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    • zoo
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 22:27:14 »
What’s the height of the board’s front?

Offline maximize

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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 22:30:14 »
I would make the rotary encoder knob shorter, closer to the height of the keycaps. I think it sticks out too much at the moment.

Offline ThePanduuh

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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 22:32:32 »
new member, unlimited group buy, no physical prototype, on the fence about using vendors, I can't tell if this is a poorly structured cash grab siphoning hype from a certain 75% or if OP truly believes this is a good idea. either way, I agree with the aforementioned requirement of post count prior to posting IC's. I feel you may have taken notes from the wrong interest checks without thinking of how poorly they went. I really hope you don't see this comment as a hate comment and you genuinely consider the feedback here. good luck OP.
Iron 165 SE | KBD8x MKII | Cypher

Offline Rayndalf

  • Posts: 431
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 22:52:46 »
The weight shown in the exploded view render looks like a placeholder. If it's internally mounted a longer flatter weight would save cost.

Not sure why you're getting torn up (yeah you made the account to post the IC, but at least you bothered to make an account now instead of throwing up a groupbuy notice once it goes live).

A physical prototype would go a long way in convincing people, but you really should consider talking to some venders.

Offline hijris32

  • Posts: 6
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 23:10:12 »
The bottom weight looks incongruous with the exploded view render.

Offline r00dy

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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 26 July 2020, 23:46:56 »
Hey, all thanks for the feedback, there's a couple of recurring questions that we'd like to clarify about the IC.
new member, unlimited group buy, no physical prototype, on the fence about using vendors, I can't tell if this is a poorly structured cash grab siphoning hype from a certain 75% or if OP truly believes this is a good idea. either way, I agree with the aforementioned requirement of post count prior to posting IC's. I feel you may have taken notes from the wrong interest checks without thinking of how poorly they went. I really hope you don't see this comment as a hate comment and you genuinely consider the feedback here. good luck OP.
The sentiment regarding a new account is warranted considering the board is expensive and a risky proposition considering the fact that we stated we may go without vendors. Additionally, the denial of a render service predicated upon the RAMA sentiment (as mentioned in the FAQ) concerned us since we had already invested time and money into the project. In order to recoup our expenditures and make the project worthwhile, we felt that putting out the IC at the same time as we ordered the first prototype was the safest play for us both monetarily and reputation-wise; we didn't want to create a keyboard that vendors would not carry and people would not buy. That being said, we already have the means to create an online storefront and are working with members in the keyboard community to make this groupbuy possibe. Our primary gripe with going through a vendor was the issue of additional cost for low order quantities and the inability to fulfill a low MOQ; however, it has since become clear that a vendor may be necessary as the response has also been overwhelming. We are currently reaching out to vendors as per multiple suggestions to increase the trust of the keyboard community in this endeavor (in progress as of tonight); while this is not a guarantee that we will use a vendor, we hope that the community sees it as a step to towards a legitimate groupbuy. As for the issues with a new geekhack account, we believe that the reddit account provides authenticity (if you hop over to mechmarket, you can see an account with more karma and history); there is nothing we can do about having a new geekhack account other than wait and comment on random posts and as mentioned previously, the timing was critical to make sure we weren't creating a keyboard that ran into a dead end. In short, we're looking into contacting vendors tonight as per the constructive criticism.

As to questions regarding aesthetic choices and decisions:
WKL layouts, blockers, and arrow key offsets all remove the possibility of the uniform bezel. We invested a great amount of time in designing a layout that was both functional and aesthetically pleasing and it's almost impossible to maintain the symmetrical and uniform spacing without the layout we've implemented. We really prefer the current spacing as it pertains to both the bezel and the key clusters; all design choices were made very consciously to maintain a particular aesthetic (large bezels with uniform spacing). There seems to be a high request for hotswap pcbs. Based on prior groupbuys, we thought that soldering was often found preferable but are willing to change our stance and add a hotswap pcb if the demand is present after the IC (please let us know if you want hotswap in the IC form). We are, however, open to all ideas so feel free to fill out the IC with suggestions.

The bottom weight looks incongruous with the exploded view render.

The weight isn't on the same plane as the feet so it looks offset in the exploded view render. We only commissioned a few views for the IC because we weren't sure if there would be enough demand to go through with the keyboard. We've since looked into another view of the bottom so people can get an idea of the feet placement along with the weight. We hope that it can be put up in the next few days but a lower resolution and tilted render is available on our discord.

Offline mahpsirhc

  • Posts: 5
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 00:00:49 »
I love the layout of the board; it looks so simple and clean. I'm in!

Offline r00dy

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 44
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 00:01:08 »
Here's a tentative render of the bottom from fusion; we'll get a better look with renders tomorrow.
248060-0
What’s the height of the board’s front?
The board is 37mm in the back and the front is 18mm
I would make the rotary encoder knob shorter, closer to the height of the keycaps. I think it sticks out too much at the moment.
We made the decision to have a taller knob because it is more easily accessible when reaching over the keycaps (Right now it's roughly 1.5x the SA func row height). Feel free to leave feedback in the IC, the knob is definitely open to change if we get enough feedback.

Offline ndimare

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  • Location: Boston
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 00:11:54 »
 I would love for this to be an unlimited group buy. I would for sure be in as missing out on a number of raffles the last 6 months has been super disheartening.

Offline sagarsiddhpura

  • Posts: 67
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 00:33:15 »
Please make it unlimited group buy with vendors

Offline r00dy

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  • Posts: 44
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 00:51:57 »
Since a lot of people requested renders of the bottom
248078-0
[ Specified attachment is not available ]
« Last Edit: Mon, 27 July 2020, 01:00:38 by r00dy »

Offline ecbob

  • Posts: 63
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 00:56:53 »
Yeah ESD protection and hoping for a Lilac color

Offline beekey

  • Posts: 419
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 03:47:20 »
Have you thought of removing the weight? My guess is, that this is heavy enough. As it is completely external, it does not add much for the sound. The latest J-01 rev1 also goes in that direction.
Could safe some money and simplify production.

Offline violeaf

  • Posts: 42
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 05:42:57 »
Any chance that the design might change to have the arrow cluster separated?

+1, this would make it a perfect board for me!

[Edit] Saw r00dy's comment about this, fair enough this follows the designer's aesthetic preference, but ultimately the market demand plays a big role in informing it as well :)
« Last Edit: Mon, 27 July 2020, 05:59:50 by violeaf »

Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 06:26:03 »
Honestly, the weight of this novel is heavier than the board will ever be.

Offline SlipperyPeteED

  • Posts: 62
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 06:28:32 »

Offline dom

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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #36 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 07:44:30 »
Where was this designed??

Australia at RamaWorks  ;)
But seriously, the inspiration is powerful, but at least the author is honest about this.

----- r00dy -----


What if RAMA wants to release his 75% layout? It will look exactly like this project (maybe except the hideous rotary encoder). He spends years shaping his design language to make sure his boards are recognizable, just like Norbauer, keycult, and any well-established brand.

Stealing is wrong, in any form. We did see that in recent times where intellectual property was disturbed.
This is BAD and wrong.

Good luck with your "design" journey.
Peace.
« Last Edit: Mon, 27 July 2020, 08:13:15 by dom »

Offline r00dy

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 44
Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #37 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 08:32:39 »
Where was this designed??

Australia at RamaWorks  ;)
But seriously, the inspiration is powerful, but at least the author is honest about this.

----- r00dy -----


What if RAMA wants to release his 75% layout? It will look exactly like this project (maybe except the hideous rotary encoder). He spends years shaping his design language to make sure his boards are recognizable, just like Norbauer, keycult, and any well-established brand.

Stealing is wrong, in any form. We did see that in recent times where intellectual property was disturbed.
This is BAD and wrong.

Good luck with your "design" journey.
Peace.

We spent a considerable amount of space in the FAQ going over the angle of design language so we're not going to rehash the issue. While we agree our design is inspired by RAMA, we highlighted the internal differences along with external ones in the FAQ. It is also the reason why the IC is so long and "novel-esque". I'm sorry that you feel this way but we were transparent about the inspiration; this board represents an amalgamation of the most popular keyboards in recent times and we sought to fuse them together along with our own implementation to design the Paragon.

Offline dom

  • Posts: 162
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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #38 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 08:45:14 »
were transparent about the inspiration

The fact you are transparent is a good thing in one way, but as a designer, I would never take someone else's work and put my accent in that obvious way (like at the image below).

Anyway, I believe you are a good person, do whatever you feel is right; it's your life, your designs.

Sorry for the interruption.
« Last Edit: Mon, 24 August 2020, 00:24:46 by dom »

Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #39 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 08:49:38 »
Where was this designed??

Australia at RamaWorks  ;)
But seriously, the inspiration is powerful, but at least the author is honest about this.

----- r00dy -----


What if RAMA wants to release his 75% layout? It will look exactly like this project (maybe except the hideous rotary encoder). He spends years shaping his design language to make sure his boards are recognizable, just like Norbauer, keycult, and any well-established brand.

Stealing is wrong, in any form. We did see that in recent times where intellectual property was disturbed.
This is BAD and wrong.

Good luck with your "design" journey.
Peace.

My good sir, if you think that similarity = stealing, then you need to revolt against every single other board that ever gets IC'd on geekhack. Just because the board is similar to a rama board doesn't mean rama can't release his own board.

Offline dom

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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #40 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 08:54:36 »
My good sir, if you think that similarity = stealing, then you need to revolt against every single other board that ever gets IC'd on geekhack. Just because the board is similar to a rama board doesn't mean rama can't release his own board.

Yes, I feel that.

As a designer, I have a healthy respect for anyone who is creating anything. Inspiration is one thing, but knowing the limits is another.

Everyone is different, I guess.
However, for me, this is too much (because I look and see RAMA).
« Last Edit: Mon, 27 July 2020, 09:08:06 by dom »

Offline maximize

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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #41 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 09:11:15 »
Here's a tentative render of the bottom from fusion; we'll get a better look with renders tomorrow.
(Attachment Link)
I would make the rotary encoder knob shorter, closer to the height of the keycaps. I think it sticks out too much at the moment.
We made the decision to have a taller knob because it is more easily accessible when reaching over the keycaps (Right now it's roughly 1.5x the SA func row height). Feel free to leave feedback in the IC, the knob is definitely open to change if we get enough feedback.

But... this is the IC. And that was my feedback. Make the knob shorter, it looks awkward.

I will also echo the comments about not running an unlimited group buy. It will help you avoid getting overwhelmed by the project, be easier to handle and get your feet wet as a new GB runner, and in the end would be better for building a good reputation in the community.
« Last Edit: Mon, 27 July 2020, 10:17:08 by maximize »

Offline r00dy

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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 09:44:30 »
I would make the rotary encoder knob shorter, closer to the height of the keycaps. I think it sticks out too much at the moment.
We made the decision to have a taller knob because it is more easily accessible when reaching over the keycaps (Right now it's roughly 1.5x the SA func row height). Feel free to leave feedback in the IC, the knob is definitely open to change if we get enough feedback.

But... this is the IC. And that was my feedback. Make the knob shorter, it looks awkward.

I will also echo the comments about not running an unlimited group buy. It will help you avoid getting overwhelmed by the project, be easier to handle and get your feet wet as a new GB runner, and in the end would be better for building a good reputation in the community.
[/quote]

My mistake, I was referring to the IC form (we're look at feedback from geekhack, reddit, and the IC form) but we've heard some sentiment about reworking the knob and it's definitely under consideration; we're going to wait until the IC results are in (~1 week) before committing to changes but the knob has definitely been mentioned before and we will look into it. As to the second issue regarding the groupbuy format, we're reaching out to reputable vendors at the moment to get quotes on pricing along with timelines; we acknowledge that we lack experience on the groupbuy logistical side and input regarding how we should go about the groupbuy is valuable. Limited definitely saves us logistical headaches, albeit it would definitely dissappoint a lot of members in the community. We're definitely trying to build rapport with the community along with a reputation so the advice is regarding the groupbuy logistics is greatly appreciated!

Offline geewiz

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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 10:54:27 »
albeit it would definitely dissappoint a lot of members in the community

More disappointing than not getting to pay for a keyboard because of availability is not getting the keyboard for which you have paid because the GB runners underestimated the effort for logistics and QA.

Offline r00dy

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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #44 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 10:57:00 »
albeit it would definitely dissappoint a lot of members in the community

More disappointing than not getting to pay for a keyboard because of availability is not getting the keyboard for which you have paid because the GB runners underestimated the effort for logistics and QA.

Agreed. Like we mentioned in previous comments, we've reached out to vendors now and are trying to alleviate the concerns regarding the logistics.
« Last Edit: Mon, 27 July 2020, 11:10:37 by r00dy »

Offline SenseiJia

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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #45 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 13:22:35 »
monkaS

Offline willdta123

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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #46 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 13:57:01 »
Getting masive Koyu vibes. This needs a split between the arrow keys and modifiers

Offline mattv

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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #47 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 15:15:57 »
Very nice looking case.  I think a wider bottom weight would like nicer and better proportioned.

Offline JvMil

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Re: [IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #48 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 15:37:21 »
Looks really interesting, filled in the IC form. One thing I would also like to say is that the knob looks a bit too tall, but aside from that it looks really clean!

Offline perry4761

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[IC] Paragon – A gasket mounted 75% keyboard with a rotary encoder
« Reply #49 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 21:33:53 »
A bit too similar to the Koyu imo. I understand that the guts are different, but the outside looks like a 75% koyu with a knob. That's past inspiration at this point. There needs to be more to claim it was "inspired by" and not "copied". Something as simple as a chamfered edge would make a world of difference. New designers stand on the shoulder on giants, so it is fine and understandable to want to use those who came before us as inspiration, but if you're not adding on to that design, you're not standing on their shoulders, you're leaning on them. Look at the Alice for instance: Many boards have copied the layout, but some of them are outright clones, while others have provided very nice additions and made amazing cases that really set them apart from the original design.

Also, a blocker between the ctrl and arrow key cluster would make this a prettier and easier to use board (for me). Even better if the navkeys also end up separated, but that's not as important to me.

The single most important thing though is definitely that you guys partner with a reputable vendor.

There is potential here, but it needs more time on the drawing board. This is your first board, and there is a big risk that you will get the copycat label assigned to you by the community if you go through with this.

Don't let these comments tear you down, and don't abandon the project! I'm just giving you guys my honest feedback and I hope my criticism is constructive and helpful, I wouldn't bother commenting if I didn't think this could become something nice.

Edit: spelling
« Last Edit: Tue, 28 July 2020, 07:48:12 by perry4761 »