graphics cards

[gr1m]

Wow. So those Athlon 64s with unlocked multipliers that were touted as a feature of the chip, and the extreme ease of overclocking computers made before the late 90s was just something I was imagining?

I think I need to see a doctor.

You know that joke article about how AMD manufactures it's CPUs out of 3rd-world-country waste from landfills.

3. Has your child asked for new hardware?

Computer hackers are often limited by conventional computer hardware. They may request "faster" video cards, and larger hard drives, or even more memory. If your son starts requesting these devices, it is possible that he has a legitimate need. You can best ensure that you are buying legal, trustworthy hardware by only buying replacement parts from your computer's manufacturer.

If your son has requested a new "processor" from a company called "AMD", this is genuine cause for alarm. AMD is a third-world based company who make inferior, "knock-off" copies of American processor chips. They use child labor extensively in their third world sweatshops, and they deliberately disable the security features that American processor makers, such as Intel, use to prevent hacking. AMD chips are never sold in stores, and you will most likely be told that you have to order them from internet sites. Do not buy this chip! This is one request that you must refuse your son, if you are to have any hope of raising him well.

[chimera15]

Wow. So those Athlon 64s with unlocked multipliers that were touted as a feature of the chip, and the extreme ease of overclocking computers made before the late 90s was just something I was imagining?

I think I need to see a doctor.

Like I said, I really don't know amd's.  On the intel side though, none of their cpu's with the exception of some testing ones with unlocked multipliers and sell for major $ have ever been really meant for the end consumer to overclock.  There have been motherboards that have supported it of course for a long time, at least back to p3's when I had my first, but intel never intended that.

[instantkamera]

You can't bench a system based on a game, when we're talking about cpu, when the majority of the games benchmark is coming from the gpu.

So, in your own twisted mind you agree. If you want to game, and CPU doesnt mean **** in games, (your) logic still dictates you'd save your damn money and buy an AMD. Just sayin'.

[ch_123]

Actually, with one exception, the only unlocked multiplier chips Intel makes are expensive "Extreme Edition" ones. This practice has dates back a few years, I think the first such chip was either a Pentium 4 or Pentium D.

The one exception is the Core i7 875K (I think it is called) which was designed to compete with the fact that AMD's top end chips are about $200-300, which allow overclockers that extra freedom without having to re-mortgage their house or whatever.

Some could say that this shows that AMD can't compete with Intel's top end. I would say that AMD has no interest in doing so because only nutjobs buy $1,000 consumer desktop CPUs anyway.

And qualify "meant to be overclocked". I'm pretty sure they tell you that you void your warranty if you fry the chip (although, in reality, they have no way of knowing if a chip has been fried by overclocking). So, I dont see how "You can overclock at your own risk" is any different to "Dont overclock, but here's all the prerequiste tools". Q6600 much?

[Phaedrus2129]

Phenom II X4, GTX460, an SSD. There's your gaming rig.

[chimera15]

So, in your own twisted mind you agree. If you want to game, and CPU doesnt mean **** in games, (your) logic still dictates you'd save your damn money and buy an AMD. Just sayin'.

Except that all the amd's on ebay cost exactly the same as the i7, or more, and as I've said all along, I don't know amd's, and don't want to find out that it's missing some feature that I like with intels.

[chimera15]

Phenom II X4, GTX460, an SSD. There's your gaming rig.

460's cost too much, going with a 260 pretty sure if I can get a good deal on one.  I can always use it in my existing units too, so.  Just getting a 260 might solve my warrock problems by itself.

[Phaedrus2129]

Except that all the amd's on ebay cost exactly the same as the i7, or more, and as I've said all along, I don't know amd's, and don't want to find out that it's missing some feature that I like with intels.

What feature, exactly, can a CPU be missing? HT? Used to compensate for overly long instruction pipeline. Speedstep? Cool'n'Quiet. Functioning and overclocking?

I guess I just have to say that you have no business building computers if you don't even understand what differentiates components.

[gr1m]

Phenom II X4, GTX460, an SSD. There's your gaming rig.

That's exactly what NCspec's vent decided as well.

[chimera15]

Actually, with one exception, the only unlocked multiplier chips Intel makes are expensive "Extreme Edition" ones. This practice has dates back a few years, I think the first such chip was either a Pentium 4 or Pentium D.

The one exception is the Core i7 875K (I think it is called) which was designed to compete with the fact that AMD's top end chips are about $200-300, which allow overclockers that extra freedom without having to re-mortgage their house or whatever.

Some could say that this shows that AMD can't compete with Intel's top end. I would say that AMD has no interest in doing so because only nutjobs buy $1,000 consumer desktop CPUs anyway.

And qualify "meant to be overclocked". I'm pretty sure they tell you that you void your warranty if you fry the chip (although, in reality, they have no way of knowing if a chip has been fried by overclocking). So, I dont see how "You can overclock at your own risk" is any different to "Dont overclock, but here's all the prerequiste tools". Q6600 much?

Yeah you're right. lol

[chimera15]

What feature, exactly, can a CPU be missing? HT? Used to compensate for overly long instruction pipeline. Speedstep? Cool'n'Quiet. Functioning and overclocking?

I guess I just have to say that you have no business building computers if you don't even understand what differentiates components.

Yeah speedstep for one, but not just the features of the cpu, but the mobos as well.  I don't understand i7's, or the amd competitors these days as I've said over and over again, so I appreciate this talking about them, it's making me do a lot of research.

It will take me a lot to persuade me to go from intel to AMD though because I did have trouble with them when I tried them early on, they have a bad reputation to me, even in laptops, which I do use my main tx2500z has an amd in, so.  I just have never considered building an amd desktop for like 10-15 years.  They're just associated with poor quality to me.  If you say I can get an amd system that has the same performance as an intel for like 50% the cost, then I might agree, but it's not looking that way based on ebay prices I'm seeing.  They look to be about the same cost, and less power in most situations, so it's not going to convince me.

[gr1m]

Minus the SSD mind you because if there's ever been a bigger waste for a pure gaming rig, it's an SSD. Or how about those special gamer Network cards?

Yeah speed step for one, but not just the features of the cpu, but the mobos as well.  I don't understand i7's, or the amd competitors these days as I've said over and over again, so I appreciate this talking about them, it's making me do a lot of research.

Please tell me, what features do you think AMD motherboards are missing? I have an AMD motherboard and can dig around my BIOS for you.

[Phaedrus2129]

Intel's Speedstep = AMD's Cool'n'Quiet

Not any difference in mobo features to my knowledge.

[ch_123]

Minus the SSD mind you because if there's ever been a bigger waste for a pure gaming rig, it's an SSD. Or how about those special gamer Network cards?



Please tell me, what features do you think AMD motherboards are missing? I have an AMD motherboard and can dig around my BIOS for you.

Depends on how good a SSD you get.

Too bad that a good SSD is mind-blowingly expensive.

[gr1m]

X25M or bust. Still too expensive. I'll keep my money and wait the extra 30 seconds it takes a game to load. Although mechanical drives are soooo damn slow. Like, when I'm installing **** or transferring large files, my computer becomes unusable.

[chimera15]

Minus the SSD mind you because if there's ever been a bigger waste for a pure gaming rig, it's an SSD. Or how about those special gamer Network cards?



Please tell me, what features do you think AMD motherboards are missing? I have an AMD motherboard and can dig around my BIOS for you.

I'm sold on using ssds.   I think they're more stable and less likely to just drop dead without warning, and start clicking and junk on you which I'm sick of with normal drives.   Drive click gives me nightmares.  If for that alone, let alone they are faster, I'm going to get a 60gb ssd for the system drive of the next desktop I build.

[ch_123]

What feature, exactly, can a CPU be missing? HT? Used to compensate for overly long instruction pipeline.

Ehrmm... sorta. What you're saying was true of the HT used in the Pentium 4, but when done right, it can be a good idea. You do know what it actually does, right?

Last I checked, current Intel and AMD chips have very similar pipeline lengths, and there aren't really any particular fundamental differences between one and the other.

The arguments made by AMD against hyperthreading include complexity, power consumption, and issues with cache misses. So it isn't an objectively brilliant idea, it so happens that Intel thinks it's good and AMD does not. Some non x86 vendors have similar things in their chips. The IBM POWER7 for example can support four threads per core.

[instantkamera]

I'm sold on using ssds.   I think they're more stable and less likely to just drop dead without warning, and start clicking and junk on you which I'm sick of with normal drives.   Drive click gives me nightmares.  

this coming from a guy who doesn't bat an eye at buying a PSU off sketchBay.

[gr1m]

YIf you say I can get an amd system that has the same performance as an intel for like 50% the cost, then I might agree

It won't happen. Please explain why AMD would sell CPUs for half the price of Intels if they were just as good? Like, this is not an AMD fail on your part - this is a logic fail. You're saying that you will only buy Product X if it is as good as Product Y and costs half as much. How does that make sense for the makers of Product X? At all?

Your justification for not buying AMD is because it isn't as good as Intel while costing half as much at the same time. Again, that makes no sense.

However, the alternative is that you buy Product X which is as good as Product Y in games which is what you will be using the computer for and costs half as much.

, but it's not looking that way based on ebay prices I'm seeing.  They look to be about the same cost, and less power in most situations, so it's not going to convince me.

Try this on for size. If you're adventurous enough to trust open-box Ebay power supplies, then you should give unlocking cores a shot:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103846
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138194

Chances are that you will be able to unlock the 555 into a full quad core Phenom II.

[ch_123]

I'm sold on using ssds.   I think they're more stable and less likely to just drop dead without warning, and start clicking and junk on you which I'm sick of with normal drives.   Drive click gives me nightmares.  If for that alone, let alone they are faster, I'm going to get a 60gb ssd for the system drive of the next desktop I build.

Just don't buy a cheap one, because in many cases they are both more unstable and more power intensive than a good platter drive.

[instantkamera]

looking for cheap 1090T's and somehow came across this:

http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100525060233AADGQMO

7 lolcorez

"AMD is from the same people who make GeForce and Asus mother boards"

[gr1m]

"`just because its 7 cores doesn't mean there more powerfull. 7 cores have a extremelly high over heating rate."

Braincells... oh God... it hurts.

[ch_123]

As someone who has been exposed to the actual realities of CPU design, and realized how much of a brain**** it all is, I always lol at the armchair expert who predicates his opinions on the latest AMD and Intel pissing war.

[Phaedrus2129]

Ehrmm... sorta. What you're saying was true of the HT used in the Pentium 4, but when done right, it can be a good idea. You do know what it actually does, right?

Last I checked, current Intel and AMD chips have very similar pipeline lengths, and there aren't really any particular fundamental differences between one and the other.

The arguments made by AMD against hyperthreading include complexity, power consumption, and issues with cache misses. So it isn't an objectively brilliant idea, it so happens that Intel thinks it's good and AMD does not. Some non x86 vendors have similar things in their chips. The IBM POWER7 for example can support four threads per core.

Right, Pentium 4 was the one with the 20-stage pipeline. I do know what hyperthreading is, it puts two threads on the same core and when one thread can't saturate the pipeline it inserts instructions from the other thread. Problems are, as you said, it's complicated, hot, and the processing overhead reduces the benefit. It only really helps when dealing with massively multiparallel code. If I ever get an i7 I'll disable HT so I can get an extra 200-400MHz on lower voltage with less heat, since it wouldn't be beneficial for anything I do.

[gr1m]

"AMD is from the same people who make GeForce and Asus mother boards. So they make A lot of money to begin with so they don't need more. Don't worry."

The sad reality is that AMD has been losing too much money to even be able to compete with a pimple on Intel's ass. Intel, by contrast, is expanding. So much so that when I'm done with my EE degree, I'm definitely going to try and get a job at Intel.

[ch_123]

Well, 20 for Northwood and Williamette, but 31 for Prescott. The Core 2 chips have something like a 14 stage pipeline, which is similar to AMD. I don't know what the Core i7 one is like, but I'd imagine it's the same length.

[ch_123]

"AMD is from the same people who make GeForce and Asus mother boards. So they make A lot of money to begin with so they don't need more. Don't worry."

The sad reality is that AMD has been losing too much money to even be able to compete with a pimple on Intel's ass. Intel, by contrast, is expanding. So much so that when I'm done with my EE degree, I'm definitely going to try and get a job at Intel.

Show Image

I'd get a job with ARM. Y'know, the one that is going to survive.

[Phaedrus2129]

I'm disappointed with all the hexacore and octacore nonsense. Most software runs perfectly fine on 2-4 cores. I'd like to see more SSE optimizations, logic core optimizations to bring down the transistor count, smaller die size, smaller process, more of this stuff where idle cores downclock and busy ones overclock... Improvements to the manufacturing process so that there are more higher-binned chips downclocked so we can get a chip that can overclock to the same speed as a more expensive one...

[instantkamera]

"AMD is from the same people who make GeForce and Asus mother boards. So they make A lot of money to begin with so they don't need more. Don't worry."

The sad reality is that AMD has been losing too much money to even be able to compete with a pimple on Intel's ass. Intel, by contrast, is expanding. So much so that when I'm done with my EE degree, I'm definitely going to try and get a job at Intel.

Show Image

where are you taking that EE degree? Mtl, so I assume either conc or McGill. I'll assume not UQAM as your written English has me thinking you are a native English speaker - forgive me if I'm wrong (I suppose you could be a hybrid from the west island though ;)).

[chimera15]

this coming from a guy who doesn't bat an eye at buying a PSU off sketchBay.

I've had tons of hard drives fail on me over the years and take sometimes years of work with them.  I've never had a psu fail and take any components with it, in 30 years of using, building, and maintaining other people's computers as well.

[ch_123]

I'm disappointed with all the hexacore and octacore nonsense. Most software runs perfectly fine on 2-4 cores. I'd like to see more SSE optimizations, logic core optimizations to bring down the transistor count, smaller die size, smaller process, more of this stuff where idle cores downclock and busy ones overclock... Improvements to the manufacturing process so that there are more higher-binned chips downclocked so we can get a chip that can overclock to the same speed as a more expensive one...

The thing with SSE instructions is that because there's no guarantee that everyone has the same SSE support, software isn't compiled with support for it (ask people who tried to get OS X running on SSE2 CPUs before people started making those hax editions). Also, because they are implemented in hardware, they increase the complexity of hardware, which is contrary to the sort of simplification that you're talking about =P

Really the issue is that manufacturers are hitting the ceiling of what can be done with the current CMOS technology. We're going to be stuck with more of the same for the foreseeable future.

Also,

[chimera15]

It won't happen. Please explain why AMD would sell CPUs for half the price of Intels if they were just as good? Like, this is not an AMD fail on your part - this is a logic fail. You're saying that you will only buy Product X if it is as good as Product Y and costs half as much. How does that make sense for the makers of Product X? At all?

Your justification for not buying AMD is because it isn't as good as Intel while costing half as much at the same time. Again, that makes no sense.

However, the alternative is that you buy Product X which is as good as Product Y in games which is what you will be using the computer for and costs half as much.



Try this on for size. If you're adventurous enough to trust open-box Ebay power supplies, then you should give unlocking cores a shot:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103846
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138194

Chances are that you will be able to unlock the 555 into a full quad core Phenom II.

I'm happy with intel. They've been working relatively flawlessly for me for the last 15 years, while the amd's I've tried have been crap.  It would take that price difference in order for me to switch.  I see no reason to switch if the difference in price is negligible.

[ch_123]

I'm happy with intel. They've been working relatively flawlessly for me for the last 15 years, while the motherboards I've had for AMD chips have been crap.

Fixed.

Were the AMD motherboards from the same manufacturer and price range as the Intel ones you had?

[gr1m]

I'm happy with intel. They've been working relatively flawlessly for me for the last 15 years, while the amd's I've tried have been crap.  It would take that price difference in order for me to switch.  I see no reason to switch if the difference in price is negligible.

So for you to use AMD, they have to beat Intel and charge much less. Right. You do know how dumb that is, right? And to think this whole time I've been trying to have a somewhat intelligent discussion with you. Waste of time but at least my post count gets upped.

where are you taking that EE degree? Mtl, so I assume either conc or McGill. I'll assume not UQAM as your written English has me thinking you are a native English speaker - forgive me if I'm wrong (I suppose you could be a hybrid from the west island though ).

Yeah, McGill, and yeah 100% Anglophone. I live in St. Laurent (which is very French if you live anywhere except in the Jewish part, which is very English and which is where I live).

[chimera15]

Fixed.

Were the AMD motherboards from the same manufacturer and price range as the Intel ones you had?

That's probably true.  But I've had some celerons too over the years when I was really strapped for cash, and didn't have problems with them like I had with amds either, so.

[chimera15]

So for you to use AMD, they have to beat Intel and charge much less. Right. You do know how dumb that is, right? And to think this whole time I've been trying to have a somewhat intelligent discussion with you. Waste of time but at least my post count gets upped.



Yeah, McGill, and yeah 100% Anglophone. I live in St. Laurent (which is very French if you live anywhere except in the Jewish part, which is very English and which is where I live).

AMD is pointless as a company as far as I'm concerned if they can't do that.  They have no point in the marketplace.  Intel is the standard, not AMD, it's always been that way.  They have to offer more for less or they won't be able to compete at all.  Even then.  I mean look at Tucker, he offered a better car for less, and still wasn't able to compete with the big 3 auto makers.  It's the same with processors. Brand recognition and customer loyalty has a lot to do with it.

[ch_123]

In fairness, during the mid 90s, a lot of third party motherboard chipsets for AMD CPUs were ****, and this created a bad reputation for them.

Such issues are not really relevant anymore. And there's nothing wrong with the chips themselves.

[gr1m]

AMD is pointless as a company as far as I'm concerned if they can't do that.  They have no point in the marketplace.

Intel processors are better and cost more.
AMD processors are not as good and cost less. That's a pretty balanced marketplace.

[chimera15]

Intel processors are better and cost more.
AMD processors are not as good and cost less. That's a pretty balanced marketplace.

Yeah, except from what I'm seeing, on the used/second hand market at least, they cost the same and do less.


Show me an amd chip that I don't need a huge water cooling or hs/fan that will compete with a i7 on ebay or somewhere else and will cost significantly less and I'll consider it.

[gr1m]

AMD is pointless as a company as far as I'm concerned if they can't do that.  They have no point in the marketplace.  Intel is the standard, not AMD, it's always been that way.  They have to offer more for less or they won't be able to compete at all.  Even then.  I mean look at Tucker, he offered a better car for less, and still wasn't able to compete with the big 3 auto makers.  It's the same with processors. Brand recognition and customer loyalty has a lot to do with it.

But what does any of that have to do with the fact that you can save money with AMD and get the same gaming performance as Intel?

Yeah, except from what I'm seeing, on the used/second hand market at least, they cost the same and do less.


Show me an amd chip that I don't need a huge water cooling or hs/fan that will compete with a i7 on ebay or somewhere else and will cost significantly less and I'll consider it.

Why are you using the used/second hand market to gauge a company's standing? Processors aren't cars. Anybody can sell whatever the **** they want for whatever price they want to charge second-hand.

[chimera15]

But what does any of that have to do with the fact that you can save money with AMD and get the same gaming performance as Intel?

Because I can't?

[gr1m]

Show me an amd chip that I don't need a huge water cooling or hs/fan that will compete with a i7

Did you ignore those Crysis links? You clearly didn't because you cried about them and also agreed that AMD is on par with Intel when it comes to games.

[chimera15]

Yeah, but I'm not, because I couldn't afford either one new.

[chimera15]

Did you ignore those Crysis links? You clearly didn't because you cried about them and also agreed that AMD is on par with Intel when it comes to games.

I didn't ignore them.  I disagreed with them, because I wasn't sure if they were testing the cpu, or the gpu, and all the little disclaimers and junk were in German, so I have no idea what they were actually comparing.

[gr1m]

I didn't ignore them.  I disagreed with them, because I wasn't sure if they were testing the cpu, or the gpu, and all the little disclaimers and junk were in German, so I have no idea what they were actually comparing.

They were testing the overall system, which is what you need to play a game. The disclaimers did not say "Warning: These benchmarks are a joke and Intel is in reality better than AMD".

[instantkamera]

Yeah, McGill, and yeah 100% Anglophone. I live in St. Laurent (which is very French if you live anywhere except in the Jewish part, which is very English and which is where I live).

Yeah I lived in Mtl for four years. Plateau for one year (mt royal and coloniale) and the rest in NDG.

[chimera15]

They were testing the overall system, which is what you need to play a game. The disclaimers did not say "Warning: These benchmarks are a joke and Intel is in reality better than AMD".

There are too many factors to go amd vs intel based on a whole system.  It's unlikely you can get any really fair results doing stuff this way, especially testing with a game like crysis, which is really an atypical game.

[ch_123]

Given that you can have comparative systems where the only difference is the motherboard and the CPU (which go hand in hand anyway, so there's no point in considering them separately) I'm going to disagree.

Does anyone else smell a troll here?

[gr1m]

There are too many factors to go amd vs intel based on a whole system.  It's unlikely you can get any really fair results doing stuff this way, especially testing with a game like crysis, which is really an atypical game.

How is it unfair? Because it showed AMD beating Intel?

Does anyone else smell a troll here?

Well, I haven't bathed in a few weeks.

[chimera15]

How is it unfair? Because it showed AMD beating Intel?

No, but given I saw no parts list there of the units they were testing, I'm not sure it was a fair comparison.  Is there a list of what they were testing exactly?  Even the motherboard cpu combination can have big effects on performance, within brands, let alone amd vs intel.  Even from chip to chip with intel, you'll get different results, and different level of overclock capability.  One way or another it'll be unfair.  It even matters little things like what system, or even what programs are installed on the system, you'll get different results for the benchmarks.  So it's very difficult to get fair comparisons, you need a large sample size.