Author Topic: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread) (Read 13890 times)

ironman31 · « **on:** Mon, 19 July 2010, 21:07:13 »

I would like a Topre board. There's no doubting that, but there's always something about one or the other that gives me doubts.

Since I'll hopefully be using this as my daily driver I'd like an equal weighted board.

My doubts for the HHKB is the build quality compared to Realforce and it's layout. I'm not sure if it'll do it for me as an everyday keyboard, the only thing that seems like it would benefit me would be the control key where the caps lock normally is (which the 103UB doesn't seem to have the option). But the placement of the backspace and other keys seems to hinder it as daily driver material. (I won't only be programming/Unixing all day).

My doubts with the Realforce lie in the 55g weighting. My cherry browns seem like a pretty good weight for me, but the blues (I've only used them for about a month) seems a little stiff. I think though it might be because of the resistance of the click. But if the build quality of the Realforce is superior over the HHKB by a good deal, then I can handle getting a full size keyboard (The 87u doesn't seem like it will be readily available anytime soon).

I'm not really asking for a decision, just some personal experiences between these two types of topre keyboards.

Xede · « **Reply #1 on:** Tue, 20 July 2010, 01:34:37 »

The Realforce has the same key quality as the HHKB, the HHKB is lighter though so unless you have something to put underneath it then it may move around if pushed. I dislike having the caps lock key in the Realforce after going without but as a daily driver for playing games I prefer the Realforce for its standard layout and for the F keys which the HHKB requires a modifier key to use. The key feel of 55g versus 45g is something that one gets used to quickly as the key feel is very similar.

002 · « **Reply #2 on:** Tue, 20 July 2010, 05:02:33 »

I think your heart is set on the Realforce deep down and I'd hate to be making your decision more difficult here but if you think the Cherry Blues are a little too stiff, then it might take you a while to get used to a uniform 55G board.

I use a Cherry blue and a brown daily (work and home) and the Realforce for me is, dare I say, a little tiring on the fingers compared to my cherry boards.

ch_123 · « **Reply #3 on:** Tue, 20 July 2010, 05:09:20 »

I think the HHKB is a great layout for general purpose use, not just programming

itlnstln · « **Reply #4 on:** Tue, 20 July 2010, 07:25:58 »

Quote from: ch_123;204458

I think the HHKB is a great layout for general purpose use, not just programming

I'll second this. I don't think the switches alone are worth the purchase in and of themselves. The HHKB layout kicks ass on it's own and makes the expenditure a little more worthwhile.

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #5 on:** Tue, 20 July 2010, 08:23:39 »

Quote from: itlnstln;204477

I'll second this. I don't think the switches alone are worth the purchase in and of themselves. The HHKB layout kicks ass on it's own and makes the expenditure a little more worthwhile.

I'm always amazed to see how some people just love the HHKP layout. I don't think I'll ever be able to like this layout. First, I've never had any problem with my Caps Lock key. And second, I need to type in both English and French a lot and I use US-International layout on all my computers. The "most important" key for me is ~. If it is not in the left upper corner, it's not helpful to me.

microsoft windows · « **Reply #6 on:** Tue, 20 July 2010, 08:40:31 »

I would never be able to stand an HHKB. They're just too damn confusing.

noctua · « **Reply #7 on:** Tue, 20 July 2010, 08:47:02 »

Specially for programming, on the HHKB i miss the direct access to the function keys that i need in Visual Studio to start/stop and debug applications..

bigpook · « **Reply #8 on:** Tue, 20 July 2010, 10:54:51 »

Ditto the key layout of the HHKB. I miss it when I am typing on a 'normal' keyboard.

I love how the Cntrl key is mapped along with escape and backspace. I am not a real programmer and don't understand why the HHKB is flagged as such. I think it is the ideal layout for general computer use.

If you need a gaming keyboard with discrete arrow keys or whatever, then get a gaming keyboard. No foul there. But for day to day typing the HHKB rules for me with its awesome layout.

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #9 on:** Tue, 20 July 2010, 11:00:58 »

Quote from: bigpook;204523

Ditto the key layout of the HHKB. I miss it when I am typing on a 'normal' keyboard.

I love how the Cntrl key is mapped along with escape and backspace. I am not a real programmer and don't understand why the HHKB is flagged as such. I think it is the ideal layout for general computer use.

If you need a gaming keyboard with discrete arrow keys or whatever, then get a gaming keyboard. No foul there. But for day to day typing the HHKB rules for me with its awesome layout.

I guess I need to try one to really understand what it's like to use one...just like trying a switch is the one and only way to know what that switch feel like.

itlnstln · « **Reply #10 on:** Tue, 20 July 2010, 11:42:42 »

There is an AHK script out there that mimics the HHKB fairly well from what I understand. There might be a few things that it can't do exactly, but it should be pretty close.

ironman31 · « **Reply #11 on:** Tue, 20 July 2010, 11:53:56 »

Are all Realforces backed with a steel plate?

washuai · « **Reply #12 on:** Tue, 20 July 2010, 14:00:27 »

Elitekeyboards does have the white 86U. If you don't mind paying more, you can get an all 45g Realforce in the 91U. If I'm gonna go through that kind of trouble and expense though I want the quiet Realforce, although it is easier to find the 91U.

ironman31 · « **Reply #13 on:** Tue, 20 July 2010, 23:14:29 »

For those who have tried the hhkb and a cherry brown, do they both feel as light as the other? (I know gram wise they are, but does the topre on the hhkb have a different sort of tactile bump to make it appear to have a different weight to actuate?)

didjamatic · « **Reply #14 on:** Tue, 20 July 2010, 23:28:40 »

They are totally different in how they respond, actuate, feel and sound. You really have to try Topres for several days before you can make any kind of judgement. This is because they are capacitive and you have to learn to type differently on them to really benefit from them. Of course you can still mash the switches as hard as you want, but you don't have to and over time you learn to not need to. Same with an IBM PC AT Model F but it's tactile point is SO sharp and click SO defined, that your brain and hands adjust faster to it.

Anyone who has used a Topre for less than a solid week hasn't experienced the potential of the switch. Especially if you're coming from a heavy switch.

itlnstln · « **Reply #15 on:** Wed, 21 July 2010, 06:35:41 »

I'll agree with what didjamatic said. They are an interesting switch. Personally, I still like Cherry browns better, but in the case of both the Cherry browns and the Topres, you have to get used to typing lighter to really get the most out of them.

ch_123 · « **Reply #16 on:** Wed, 21 July 2010, 06:47:13 »

Topre is definitely more tactile than the Browns.

itlnstln · « **Reply #17 on:** Wed, 21 July 2010, 07:50:39 »

Quote from: ch_123;204801

Topre is definitely more tactile than the Browns.

That, and the tactility is different. The bulk of the resistance is at the top of the keystroke with the Topres where the Cherry browns' resistance build through the first half of the keystroke and releases at activation. I, personally, prefer the Cherry brown's profile over the Topre.

ironman31 · « **Reply #18 on:** Wed, 21 July 2010, 16:50:50 »

Where can I find a picture of the layout of the hhkb (however many layers there are)

didjamatic · « **Reply #19 on:** Wed, 21 July 2010, 16:56:04 »

gr1m · « **Reply #20 on:** Wed, 21 July 2010, 17:36:36 »

I assume Topres have tactile bumps like rubber-dome keyboards? (You keep applying force and the key doesn't register until you apply enough that it collapses)

didjamatic · « **Reply #21 on:** Wed, 21 July 2010, 17:45:36 »

Yes but they're very different in my opinion, having owned 3 Topre boards. This has been covered and argued extensively on here, with varying opinions.

ironman31 · « **Reply #22 on:** Wed, 21 July 2010, 20:28:24 »

No one on here would happen to live near Florida State University who owns a Topre, would they? I was wondering if i could try one out before I took the plunge

bigpook · « **Reply #23 on:** Thu, 22 July 2010, 04:13:30 »

Anywhere near Bradenton?

ch_123 · « **Reply #24 on:** Thu, 22 July 2010, 05:54:16 »

Quote from: gr1m;204972

I assume Topres have tactile bumps like rubber-dome keyboards? (You keep applying force and the key doesn't register until you apply enough that it collapses)

They actuate near the top of the travel, so in some senses they are like the opposite of a regular rubber dome keyboard.

No mushiness either.

itlnstln · « **Reply #25 on:** Thu, 22 July 2010, 06:57:54 »

Quote from: ch_123;205203

They actuate near the top of the travel, so in some senses they are like the opposite of a regular rubber dome keyboard.

No mushiness either.

This. It's a little hard to describe. They have the general force profile of a typical rubber dome, but they are a lot lighter, they don't need to be bottomed out, and if you do bottom out, they don't land in mush (it feels a little more "mechanical" in that sense). The spring under the dome adds a little to the smoothness of the travel. They are certainly not a typical rubber dome, but they don't have the feel of a mechanical switch either; they're somewhere in the middle.

ironman31 · « **Reply #26 on:** Thu, 22 July 2010, 08:42:43 »

Well now I know for sure my next keyboard will be a topre. Just not sure which one yet

ch_123 · « **Reply #27 on:** Thu, 22 July 2010, 09:02:01 »

Quote from: itlnstln;205211

They are certainly not a typical rubber dome, but they don't have the feel of a mechanical switch either; they're somewhere in the middle.

I think this is one of the strong points of the Topre. The tactile bumps in things like the Alps and Cherry switches feel very artificial and plasticky. The Topres feel far more 'organic', like the way buckling springs do. The Topres may not feel as tactile, but they have that smoothness that makes lots of typing pleasant on them.

itlnstln · « **Reply #28 on:** Thu, 22 July 2010, 10:37:40 »

Agreed. It certainly gives them a unique feel and a smoothness that is rivaled only by BS.

ironman31 · « **Reply #29 on:** Sat, 24 July 2010, 23:19:33 »

I think im going to go for a realforce. Now between the 103 and a tenkeyless version, are there any differences in build quality?

chongyixiong · « **Reply #30 on:** Sun, 25 July 2010, 08:05:32 »

I have a Topre Realforce 87U All 55g coming in the middle of next month.

Just got myself a HHKB Pro2 White today as well.. so I can give you a good answer around the end of next month!

ch_123 · « **Reply #31 on:** Sun, 25 July 2010, 08:26:59 »

Some have said that the Tenkeyless is better built than the fullsize Realforce. This is possibly an illusion created by weight distribution...

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #32 on:** Sun, 25 July 2010, 11:38:58 »

I cannot say anything about the tenkeyless model because I have never had one. However, I can say that the 103 version is nicely built. It's quite heavy and very nice to type on.

ironman31 · « **Reply #33 on:** Sun, 25 July 2010, 18:45:10 »

The more I think about it, the more I think I want a full size Topre...

I asked Brian at Elitekeyboards about tenkeyless version, and he mentioned they had something that might (no promises though) come out by the end of the year.

Might wait on it, might not.

ironman31 · « **Reply #34 on:** Sun, 25 July 2010, 22:36:08 »

I have decided. The full size it is.

I figured since it'll hopefully be my main board for a while, I'd like to have a numpad.

Now, once that money comes up, I'll pull the trigger.

gr1m · « **Reply #35 on:** Sun, 25 July 2010, 22:39:31 »

Quote from: ironman31;206437

I have decided. The full size it is.

I figured since it'll hopefully be my main board for a while, I'd like to have a numpad.

Yeah, same reasoning I used when I was convincing myself not to buy a Filco tenkeyless. A numpad might come in useful some day and if I'm spending $100+ on a keyboard, I might as well get the kind with everything on it.

itlnstln · « **Reply #36 on:** Mon, 26 July 2010, 07:11:19 »

Majestouch has a special deal up on some RF 103U-UWs. He's got them up for $215 (about $15 cheaper than the others), and they come with a few extras the other models don't; they only come in white, though.

ironman31 · « **Reply #37 on:** Mon, 26 July 2010, 07:15:03 »

Yeah, I saw that, but I'm going to go with the equal weighted board

002 · « **Reply #38 on:** Mon, 26 July 2010, 07:44:12 »

Quote from: itlnstln;206529

...they come in white, guys! AWESOME.

Fixed.

Mine's on the way ^_^

itlnstln · « **Reply #39 on:** Mon, 26 July 2010, 08:01:18 »

Awesome. I am thinking about getting a fullsize RF for the desk and just keeping my HHKB packed in my laptop bag. This might be the one, but I prefer the black on gray look, and I really don't care about the extras. I'll have to think about if the $15 savings with worth not getting the black. If it were under $200, I would be all over it.

ch_123 · « **Reply #40 on:** Mon, 26 July 2010, 08:03:39 »

My HHKB is my favorite keyboard, and I think the Topre switches in it are great, but I wouldn't spend that sort of money on a Topre keyboard with a regular layout... They're not that great.

That said, if I needed a full size and quiet keyboard for work...

itlnstln · « **Reply #41 on:** Mon, 26 July 2010, 08:32:35 »

Quote from: ch_123;206540

My HHKB is my favorite keyboard, and I think the Topre switches in it are great, but I wouldn't spend that sort of money on a Topre keyboard with a regular layout... They're not that great.

That said, if I needed a full size and quiet keyboard for work...

You might change your mind if you type on a Realforce. The HHKB implementation is not as nice as the RF; the HHKB is noticeably stiffer in comparison. I get a little jealous when I am entering in numbers on the 23U. That said, I agree, it's pretty expensive for a "regular" 'board.

ironman31 · « **Reply #42 on:** Mon, 26 July 2010, 10:24:02 »

Just ordered it, Ill post pictures when it arrives

ironman31 · « **Reply #43 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 20:49:10 »

Came in yesterday, but no camera at the moment...

typo · « **Reply #44 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 22:23:49 »

it is intresting how opinions differ. i find the hhkb a bother for programing. as did a couple other people in this thread. topre switches are not my favorite either but the overall quality cannot be denied.

no one will ever be happy unless they have owned one though. at least us geeks.
i don't know why people think it is expensive and put off getting one. expensive is a logitech to a filco imo.

ironman31 · « **Reply #45 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 22:52:31 »

I don't know, it still takes a lot to spend 250 dollars on a keyboard.. to me at least....

ironman31 · « **Reply #46 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 22:54:30 »

Of course most of the stuff in my sig was hard to shuck out the money for, but I don't regret any of them, I use everything on a regular basis.

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #47 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 23:03:17 »

Quote from: ironman31;208329

I don't know, it still takes a lot to spend 250 dollars on a keyboard.. to me at least....

I, too, think that $250 is a lot of money. As much as I like my Realforce, it was a very tough decision to make.

I'm not saying that some people are crazy to spend that kind of money on a keyboard. This is why I hear from my colleagues and friends. What I am saying is $250 is a huge sum of money.

The reason why people put off buying a Topre or HHKB is not just a financial decision. Most people don't know what it's like and because they have rubber domes, it's normal for people to wonder if they will end up paying that much for a rubber dome keyboard. In other words, some are asking themselves if it's not like paying for cheap wine in an expensive wine bottle.

hyperlinked · « **Reply #48 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 23:18:31 »

$250 is no small drop in the bucket, but when you compare that the closest competitors to a Topre board are around $100 less, it feels even more expensive. I'm also quite happy with Cherry Browns, but given that I make my living with my hands and even the Browns sometimes make my hands hurt, I've always wanted to give the Topre's a try.

ItlnStln's review and the presence of a less expensive special edition Realforce board on Elite Keyboards was enough to make me decide that it was time to make the jump. I'm waiting for my Topre to arrive this week.

I used to have to split time between keyboard and voice recognition software to keep the mileage as low as possible on my hands. I haven't used voice recognition even once since I got a Filco with Browns. If the Realforce allows me to type virtually pain free, it'll go from being an expensive purchase to an utter bargain and the best $250 I've spent since the $150 i spent on my Filco.

typo · « **Reply #49 on:** Mon, 02 August 2010, 01:06:02 »

well i guess it depends on what ones priorities are. even though i have some good watches it could be argued that a topre is a tool of the trade for many. a patek watch would be much harder to justify to say, a wife. if the topre saves someone from carpal tunnel i bet it is less than the copay on your insurance. not to mention carpal tunnel sucks so i hear. still, i have several topres/hhkb and use blue cherries. i got my topres in japan really as a momento of my trips mostly. they are fine keyboards and probably easier on the hands than blue cherries. i just love the click clack. it soothes me.

plus if you get a lot of good use out of something it should be easily justified. i,as many of you do make a living coding. i do understand some people think it is absurd given the myriad of $10 offerings available. even though we know it is not the same.

i am kind of biased liking blues cherries but i feel the mx boards are a bargain then. of course most folks probably think even $130 is absurd.

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Author Topic: HHKBP2 vs. Realforce 103UB 55g (sorry about another vs. thread) (Read 13890 times)