Author Topic: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]  (Read 21477 times)

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Offline Charks!

  • Posts: 4
  • Location: Malaysia
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.2]
« Reply #50 on: Wed, 02 December 2020, 02:51:12 »
I think there's some jumble up on the R1,R2 etc indicator in Base kit picture...can you double confirm?

Offline openkeydesign

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 7
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.2]
« Reply #51 on: Wed, 02 December 2020, 09:35:33 »
I think there's some jumble up on the R1,R2 etc indicator in Base kit picture...can you double confirm?

Yes. Thank you. We will make it right in the next version.

Online Techlet

  • Posts: 38
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.2]
« Reply #52 on: Wed, 02 December 2020, 12:41:06 »
I like the overall looks of this set. However, none of the text only mod keys are horizontally/vertically centered where you would normally expect them to be. For example, escape and the R4 mods in the base kit all sit low; and R1 delete, end, page down all sit high and to the right.

Is this an issue with the renders or are the keys meant to be like this?

Offline openkeydesign

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 7
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.2]
« Reply #53 on: Wed, 02 December 2020, 23:06:37 »
No EU vendors? :(

Kbdfans could accept orders from EU I think.

Offline bansheetango

  • Posts: 23
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #54 on: Thu, 03 December 2020, 04:05:00 »
They do, import is a hassle though.

Offline spamnyams

  • Posts: 5
  • Potato
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #55 on: Thu, 03 December 2020, 10:02:04 »
Ooooooo  :thumb:

Offline Prestley

  • Posts: 21
  • Location: California, USA
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #56 on: Thu, 03 December 2020, 22:29:35 »
Really dig this set. Just ordered from kbdfans too so I could get a few dollars off when this goes up!

Offline Convergence

  • Posts: 24
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #57 on: Fri, 04 December 2020, 20:06:40 »
Very clean, the only thing that would made this perfect for me is purple accents in the color dots kit and a 1.5u fn in the base kit.

I do share the sentiment that an EU vendor would be much appreciated, importing can be a nightmare.
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 December 2020, 20:41:24 by Convergence »

Offline whirlwind

  • Posts: 61
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #58 on: Fri, 04 December 2020, 23:47:08 »


No EU vendors? :(

Kbdfans could accept orders from EU I think.

What do you mean "you think"?

Did you not try to find any EU vendors for us and by assuming that we can order from KBDfans that will magically solve your problem? Are you aware we pay import tax from vendors such as KBDfans?

If that's the case, I'm voting with my wallet and I will not buy this set I think.

Sent from my XQ-AS52 using Tapatalk


Offline Ry0t@

  • Posts: 2
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #59 on: Sun, 06 December 2020, 08:09:53 »
That looks amazing! I'd be 100 percent in, if only it had a NorDe kit! No plans for that?

Offline clackeys

  • Posts: 34
  • Location: Davis, Ca
    • Clackeys
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #60 on: Sun, 06 December 2020, 17:32:41 »
Very excited for how clean this is looking, belongs on one of our white boards.

Offline dibkib

  • Posts: 46
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #61 on: Thu, 10 December 2020, 02:37:26 »
I really like this, but as discussed by others, I'd really appreciate an EU vendor.

Offline PHYLO

  • Posts: 25
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #62 on: Wed, 16 December 2020, 10:07:00 »
I genuinely wish more keycap sets tried out different typefaces/fonts for the legends. These are the best ones I've seen so far.

Offline loop | esc lab

  • Formerly 'esclab'
  • Posts: 252
  • Location: San Francisco
  • designed by three 5 year olds
    • esc lab
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #63 on: Wed, 16 December 2020, 12:28:54 »
I had some other thoughts last night. Very excited with the idea and a lot of good stuff here. But a few more ideas...Dieter rams was very against using anything that was not needed aka less is more. One of his ten design principles is that it uses as little design as possible. I understand the novelties and less kits are inspired by his other designs but are they betraying his design ethos? For example I don’t think putting a speaker design on a key would be something he would do because it does not involve the function. I also think it would be very unlikely that he would put a quote like “less is more on keys”. I think the idea of novelties in general to dieter would be frowned upon. So I think the less and novelties kits are not in line with his design philosophies if that is your aim. But I see what you were doing by taking his design ideas for things like speakers and putting them on keys. So it depends on what direction you want to go. Finally if you get rid of the novelties(less/novelties) then I think with the other kits capital alphas would seem quite strange as the mods are lower case and I love the the lower case look very cool. Just some more ideas... really excited for this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I love the intention of this set as a fellow Dieter fan, but I agree that this could use improvements in terms of aligning with his 10 principles.

I'll offer some thoughts once I grab some coffee..

Offline nettik

  • Posts: 33
  • Location: HI
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #64 on: Wed, 16 December 2020, 13:59:09 »
I really like the theme behind this set, but a few things to think about:

Do you really need capitalized alphas if everything else is lowercase? I get some people might want all caps, but if literally all the mods are lowercase, the contrast is not going to look nice.

The novelty with six lines (I'm assuming that's a speaker grill or something?) is way too heavy in comparison to the rest of the set. Best example of what I mean is that first picture in your post - if you look at it from a glance, everything else looks the same uniform and pleasing weight except for those caps. It draws too much of your attention. Also the fact that I can't tell what it is tells you it's not a good idea for a novelty. I'm also not personally into the novelties (I keep misreading the 'but better' keycap as butter for some reason) but that might change with more renders.

Are you sure EPBT is the best choice for this set? EPBT caps can be blurry and I don't think it will work well for this font.

Offline loop | esc lab

  • Formerly 'esclab'
  • Posts: 252
  • Location: San Francisco
  • designed by three 5 year olds
    • esc lab
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #65 on: Wed, 16 December 2020, 20:32:36 »
First of all, kudos for all the effort you put into both the keycap set design + the IC. Lots of attention to detail and illustration efforts.

I do want to preface that I understand this is your interpretation of Dieter Ram's design principles -- it's your creative direction to do it however way you like. There's no right answer, so only take what I say as suggestions. His principles are guidelines, not rules. Great designers break them every day. Design would be boring as hell if there was only one way to do things.

But let's get get to the feedback.

1. Legibility

I think this is the biggest issue with your set right now. I understand the intent to use what I am guessing is Helvetica Neue Light (or even Ultralight) in your legends. But the legibility is incredibly low, even after I expand the image. I'm not a fan of lower case fonts for legends. If you look at the Magic Keyboard from Apple (which is heavily inspired by Rams' work, and also a keyboard I own), they use all-caps + centered legends for alphas. The font weight is also higher, although not as thick as default GMK fonts.

While Helvetica Neue Light/UL is a very aesthetically pleasing weight, it was never intended for great legibility. You'll rarely see it used in places where readability matters (and in legends, it matters). It's often used as an accent font, or in large illustrations.

Suggestion: Capitalize the legends (to increase consistency of legibility) + increase the font weight.

2. Attention to detail

From my cursory look into all your individual sets, I found a few instances where legends aren't properly horizontally and vertically centered. This is something you must fix. For a set inspired by Rams, you really shouldn't be violating "design is thorough down to the last detail".


3. Novelties

I can see you spent a lot of time on the novelties and they look beautiful.

However, I'm personally not a fan of novelties. One of Dieter's design principles (of the 10) is that "design makes a product useful", "design makes a product understandable", and "is unobtrusive". I see that you are borrowing details from some of his most popular products as an homage to his iconic designs, but in doing so, violates those principles because they don't add anything to the design other than as an aesthetic homage. Rams aims not to add design for just the sake of design (such as purely aesthetic choices). There's few reasons to have those design details in the novelties.

Suggestion: Dig deeper into the 10 design principles, and really explore what would make sense as novelties.

4. Color dots

As an opposite, I think the color dots makes sense - they are both aesthetically pleasing and useful. The dots will replace keys that have axillary uses that aren't labeled. They let the user define the utility. It's both aesthetically pleasing and serves as a function. I love them. Good work here.

5. less

This is the one group that I am really not a fan of. The text "less, but better" serves as a complete anti-thesis to what the text itself is trying to say. By adding that text, you aren't introducing less, nor are you adding anything better to the design. Dieter himself would never add text like this into his designs. Never.

Suggestion: Remove this.

6. Manufacturing

Let's say you do choose to go ahead with manufacturing (and it seems like you have, considering you've already chose ePBT), the legibility will be my biggest concern. ePBT is quite flexible when it comes to the type of designs + fonts, so it'll be better for you, but I would order samples of the Helvetica Neue Thin/Ultrathin to make sure the print does not bleed, and/or is legible.

Suggestion: Order samples and make sure readability is emphasized.

7. IC post suggestion

Due to the small font weight + lots of whitespace in your renders -- I found it quite hard to get a read of your keycap set in general. I would reduce the whitespace in your renders more, so people don't have to zoom into each picture as much.

Your hero shot (the first image with all the renders at once) is essentially unreadable even while the image is expanded.

I would personally also take out the "less, but better" in every render. I understand this is the name of your keycap set, but it's a little redundant and even stretches into corniness when overused.

I would also start both a Discord and Instagram account. The former helps you build your community and provide instant updates to your supporters. Instagram helps you build an audience for your set. A design language like this will get you quite a good number of followers if you keep your posts consistent.

Suggestions: Reduce the white space in your renders so us readers can quickly scan your IC post with minimal interaction. Start a community via Discord and IG.




All in all, I think your IC is very very polished. My feedback does not take away the effort + heart you put into this design.
I actually tend to write a lot when I see something that has a lot of potential but can use a bit of a push to become even better. I especially love the small Rams details you included in the IC such as the radio dial-type design details that is signature to his style.

Rams' design principles are like he says.. principles. They're not rules. Some of the best design in the world may not even follow close to Rams' work. It is up to you, the designer, to make these design choices. But since you said you are designing something inspired by Rams, I applied my feedback through the lens of his principles.

Really looking forward to what you do moving forward and any further updates.

GLWIC.

loop @ esc lab
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 December 2020, 21:08:00 by esclab »

Offline Jefff

  • Posts: 67
  • Location: California, USA
    • jlabs.co
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #66 on: Wed, 16 December 2020, 21:06:26 »
First of all, kudos for all the effort you put into both the keycap set design + the IC. Lots of attention to detail and illustration efforts.

I do want to preface by me understanding this is your interpretation of Dieter Ram's design principles -- it's your creative direction to do it however way you like. There's no right answer, so only take what I say as suggestions.

1. Legibility

I think this is the biggest issue with your set right now. I understand the intent to use what I am guessing is Helvetica Neue Light (or even Ultralight) in your legends. But the legibility is incredibly low, even after I expand the image. I'm not a fan of lower case fonts for legends. If you look at the Magic Keyboard from Apple (which is heavily inspired by Rams' work, and also a keyboard I own), they use all-caps + centered legends for alphas. The font weight is also higher, although not as thick as default GMK fonts.

While Helvetica Neue Light/UL is a very aesthetically pleasing weight, it was never intended for great legibility. You'll rarely see it used in places where readability matters (and in legends, it matters). It's often used as an accent font, or in large illustrations.

Suggestion: Capitalize the legends (to increase consistency of legibility) + increase the font weight.

2. Attention to detail

From my cursory look into all your individual sets, I found a few instances where legends aren't properly horizontally and vertically centered. This is something you must fix. For a set inspired by Rams, you really shouldn't be violating "design is thorough down to the last detail".


3. Novelties

I can see you spent a lot of time on the novelties and they look beautiful.

However, I'm personally not a fan of novelties. One of Dieter's design principles (of the 10) is that "design makes a product useful", "design makes a product understandable", and "is unobtrusive". I see that you are borrowing details from some of his most popular products as an homage to his iconic designs, but in doing so, violates those principles because they don't add anything to the design other than as an aesthetic homage. Rams aims not to add design for just the sake of design (such as purely aesthetic choices). There's few reasons to have those design details in the novelties.

Suggestion: Dig deeper into the 10 design principles, and really explore what would make sense as novelties.

4. Color dots

As an opposite, I think the color dots makes sense - they are both aesthetically pleasing and useful. The dots will replace keys that have axillary uses that aren't labeled. They let the user define the utility. It's both aesthetically pleasing and serves as a function. I love them. Good work here.

5. less

This is the one group that I am really not a fan of. The text "less, but better" serves as a complete anti-thesis to what the text itself is trying to say. By adding that text, you aren't introducing less, nor are you adding anything better to the design. Dieter himself would never add text like this into his designs. Never.

Suggestion: Remove this.

6. Manufacturing

Let's say you do choose to go ahead with manufacturing (and it seems like you have, considering you've already chose ePBT), the legibility will be my biggest concern. ePBT is quite flexible when it comes to the type of designs + fonts, so it'll be better for you, but I would order samples of the Helvetica Neue Thin/Ultrathin to make sure the print does not bleed, and/or is legible.

Suggestion: Order samples and make sure readability is emphasized.

7. IC post suggestion

Due to the small font weight + lots of whitespace in your renders -- I found it quite hard to get a read of your keycap set in general. I would reduce the whitespace in your renders more, so people don't have to zoom into each picture as much.

Your hero shot (the first image with all the renders at once) is essentially unreadable even while the image is expanded.

I would personally also take out the "less, but better" in every render. I understand this is the name of your keycap set, but it's a little redundant and even stretches into corniness when overused.

I would also start both a Discord and Instagram account. The former helps you build your community and provide instant updates to your supporters. Instagram helps you build an audience for your set. A design language like this will get you quite a good number of followers if you keep your posts consistent.

Suggestions: Reduce the white space in your renders so us readers can quickly scan your IC post with minimal interaction. Start a community via Discord and IG.




All in all, I think your IC is very very polished. My feedback does not take away the effort + heart you put into this design.
I actually tend to write a lot when I see something that has a lot of potential but can use a bit of a push to become even better. I especially love the small Rams details you included in the IC such as the radio dial-type design details that is signature to his style.

Rams' design principles are like he says.. principles. They're not rules. Some of the best design in the world may not even follow close to Rams' work. It is up to you, the designer, to make these design choices. But since you said you are designing something inspired by Rams, I applied my feedback through the lens of his principles.

Really looking forward to what you do moving forward and any further updates.

GLWIC.

loop @ esc lab

Great feedback!

Offline _rubik

  • Posts: 686
  • Location: 192.168.x.x
  • Typing on: e8.5, Holy Trash Pandas, GMK Olivia
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #67 on: Wed, 16 December 2020, 22:25:37 »
The type isn't quite to my taste, but I _love_ those novelties. Super cool  :thumb:

Offline ryukomatoi

  • Posts: 26
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #68 on: Mon, 21 December 2020, 15:08:19 »
I see a potentially great product and the community has some pretty good feedbacks.

I will agree that it may not be easy for ePBT to implement the thin fonts. If it can be executed, then great. If not, I honestly wouldn't mind the legends to be bolder.

I do appreciate the "less but better" concept, however I feel that the design aesthetic doesn't completely follow. My only gripe is the modifiers. When modifiers have both symbols and legends, it just looks too busy in my opinion. To respect the less-but-better concept, I feel that it should only have one or the other, not both. A nice example would be to take a look at ePBT's GoK x BoW keycap set.

Regardless, I look forward to see new renders and sample keycaps. Having mentioned the GoK x BoW set, you can already tell that I'm a sucker for a WS2 white keycaps with CR legends, especially made by ePBT.

Offline Jacki

  • Posts: 30
  • Location: Denmark
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #69 on: Mon, 21 December 2020, 15:12:19 »
I wish the Font was bigger and darker so it's more visible

Offline mrvco

  • Posts: 82
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #70 on: Sun, 27 December 2020, 14:57:18 »
Text + Icons on the mods is a bit much, one or the other would be my preference.  I'm not a fan of the 'Less' kit (way too busy) and some of the 'Novelties' are ok (the horizontal line keys are a bit overwrought for my tastes), but I do like the 'Dots' kit.  All that being said, it would be good to hear some feedback on your confidence that ePBT can pull off these legends as PBT dyesub.

Offline geveent

  • Posts: 3
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #71 on: Sun, 27 December 2020, 19:19:01 »
I want it now. Please start selling the keycaps. The keycaps are perfect. You don't have to change anything.

Offline Casserole

  • Posts: 16
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #72 on: Sun, 27 December 2020, 21:13:09 »
really digging this set. Love the novelties! Share the concern with others about how thin characters are on the set. Hope to see it soon!

Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #73 on: Sun, 27 December 2020, 22:10:00 »
I have to say, I am still concerned by the thin legends. I am not sure if ePBT will be able to do this level of detail considering their previous issues with regular thickness legends. Regardless, I will be pleasantly surprised if it does actually come out properly. good luck!

Offline cogitoergofemme

  • Posts: 41
  • Location: Orlando, FL
  • quién seré, seré
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #74 on: Wed, 30 December 2020, 22:00:33 »
This is really well executed!


Offline santela

  • Posts: 127
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #75 on: Thu, 31 December 2020, 00:59:22 »
I have to say, I am still concerned by the thin legends. I am not sure if ePBT will be able to do this level of detail considering their previous issues with regular thickness legends. Regardless, I will be pleasantly surprised if it does actually come out properly. good luck!

Same. Given how thin these lines are, I am pretty doubtful.

Offline Corruto

  • Posts: 6
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #76 on: Thu, 14 January 2021, 04:36:57 »
I would love an International Kit. Really want this!

Offline apophene

  • Posts: 2
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #77 on: Thu, 25 February 2021, 08:59:33 »
Love, love, love this. Can't wait to give you my money. Am building a Sinc right now with an acrylic/plywood case...this will be perfect.

Offline Capone1423

  • Posts: 10
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #78 on: Sun, 28 February 2021, 12:52:34 »
is there any chance for an international kit?

Offline Extra Fox

  • Posts: 14
  • Location: Oregon
  • quis qui sais
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #79 on: Sun, 28 February 2021, 16:14:13 »
I really enjoy Dieter Rams' aesthetic and this set is really fantastic.

I think Loop did a great job with his suggestions. So the only suggestion I have would be to echo others and say I'd like the letters to be center-center on the keys.
Personally, while I fully appreciate Dieter Rams principles, I do like the novelties.
A-a-ron

Online kchlam

  • Posts: 26
  • Location: Vancouver
Re: [IC] EPBT Less But Better [UPDATED DEC.3]
« Reply #80 on: Sun, 28 February 2021, 19:16:18 »
Hmm interesting, very neat to see lowercase on the alphas