Author Topic: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)  (Read 6106 times)

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Offline cest73

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Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« on: Sun, 03 January 2021, 12:36:02 »
Okay we're getting serious slowly...
The intended layout:
258959-0
The front side of the PCB
258961-1
The back side of the PCB
258963-2
Intended goal: maximize mouse playground while avoiding to sacrifice any key of the 104




Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 03 January 2021, 12:36:59 »
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=110450.0 <- initial thread with design considerations

Offline TalkingTree

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 03 January 2021, 12:53:24 »
My two suggestions for the moment are to split every 2u keys for a universal compatibility. Someone could be interested in your board but with a different layout. A ISO enter key would also be appropriate.
Also, you can manage a fullsize keyboard with a Atmega32u4 as well. There are enough pins for a 11x11 or even a 12x12 matrix.
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 03 January 2021, 13:40:38 »
My two suggestions for the moment are to split every 2u keys for a universal compatibility. Someone could be interested in your board but with a different layout. A ISO enter key would also be appropriate.
I agree there, i was rushing the initial publish so we can delve into the particularities and things like that!

The ISO being a fairly common i totally should keep that as an option.

Then, again i doubt i need to split much more than backspace and the two shifts to get a "spare" 1u aside of each?


The hard question is the "Big Ass enter" as i just so happen to have one win key less "big foot" with black alps that might donate the switches (black ALPS) and the key caps, alongside there are quite few XM stem options there too...

Quote
Also, you can manage a fullsize keyboard with a Atmega32u4 as well. There are enough pins for a 11x11 or even a 12x12 matrix.
While i might agree there too, I prefer the much cleaner layout and free pins should i actually choose to ever revise this project pursuing the elusive per switch backlight.it

IIRC the 32u4 is exactly enough for my 104 w/o that one backlight pin? I have 6 rows and 20 columns here and 13 free pins (plus AREF) i guess i could squeeze it by making certain each column is packed with 6 keys and get that number down somewhat?

I was even lazy enough to opt for the larger package of the A90USB1286 over the more compact one.

I doubt it would impact the price too hard, or am I missing something?

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 03 January 2021, 14:13:46 »
I just got rid of the LED diodes but kept the holes
(actually replaced the damn footprint  :'( )

258965-0
258967-1

Offline TalkingTree

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 03 January 2021, 14:45:22 »
the two shifts to get a "spare" 1u aside of each?
1.25u and 1u actually. I'd also split the numpad's 2u. But that's just me.

The hard question is the "Big Ass enter"
BAE is a mere combination of ISO and ANSI enter. Once you have the ISO footprint and the stabilizer holes for both variants, you're done.

IIRC the 32u4 is exactly enough for my 104 w/o that one backlight pin?
More than enough. I made a fullsize keyboard out of it with three dedicated LED indicators with a 32u4. It's opensource too if you wanna take a look at it.

I doubt it would impact the price too hard, or am I missing something?
The AT90USB1286 costs twice as much as the 32u4 if I recall but certainly the highest price is on the PCB.
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 03 January 2021, 15:01:25 »
[snip]
IIRC the 32u4 is exactly enough for my 104 w/o that one backlight pin?
More than enough. I made a fullsize keyboard out of it with three dedicated LED indicators with a 32u4. It's opensource too if you wanna take a look at it.
What was your design goal? There seems to be more than one G80-3000 on github out there?

Offline Suavity

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 03 January 2021, 17:34:16 »
From a quick glance of the PCB Render, it looks like your traces are really close to the edges of the PCB. Perhaps the placement of the MCU can be repositioned to the spacing between the PrtSc, Esc, Num Lock, and Tilde Keys.  Just food for thought.  :thumb:

Offline Applet

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 04 January 2021, 03:38:34 »
I'd recommend to rotate the switches 180 degrees. There is some issues with that rotation and cherry-profile keycaps.

Just a tip: Duplex matrix is a good way to keep the pin count lower, without adding too much complexity: https://wiki.ai03.com/books/pcb-design/page/matrices-and-duplex-matrix . Doing symmetrical matrices can be a bit of a pain (11x11, 12x12 etc) if you don't think it through thoroughly.
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 January 2021, 03:44:12 by Applet »

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 04 January 2021, 03:49:47 »
From a quick glance of the PCB Render, it looks like your traces are really close to the edges of the PCB. Perhaps the placement of the MCU can be repositioned to the spacing between the PrtSc, Esc, Num Lock, and Tilde Keys.  Just food for thought.  :thumb:
Damn!
At first i thought "he's right!", then i reconsidered it...

"How bad can it be to have few traces closer to the edge, and anyhow the ample empty area beneath the space bar is where many other DIYers put the MCU anyway"

Then i looked up some guide lines on the internet, found nothing particular to the placement to the edge, and ground traces are the outer most anyway...


Then i thought of it some more, and damn he's right!


Back to the drawing board program we go...
 ;D

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 04 January 2021, 04:07:46 »
I'd recommend to rotate the switches 180 degrees. There is some issues with that rotation and cherry-profile keycaps.

Kindly no, i have chosen this layout on purpose:
1 - when the backlight is used the switch occludes the light so only the amount coming thru the key cap goes to the eyes
2 - Who is in for the bling can choose a transparent top
3 - who is in for MX might opt for some other profile
4 - who is for the Cherry profile (which i happen to like quite a lot) might pick a recent Kalih made switch as those are "agnostic" to the led orientation and are just as good if not better then their Cherry counterpart.
5 - this is a Matias too PCB and i haven't got to address the illumination of those switches yet  ;D


So, kind and sincere thanks for the heads-up, the illumination LEDs stay "south" NORTH (note to self: no more Hobbit books for you mister, now go under the stairwell to sleep!)

Quote

Just a tip: Duplex matrix is a good way to keep the pin count lower, without adding too much complexity: https://wiki.ai03.com/books/pcb-design/page/matrices-and-duplex-matrix . Doing symmetrical matrices can be a bit of a pain (11x11, 12x12 etc) if you don't think it through thoroughly.

Now that is a good point!
Damn, double back to the drawing board program!
 :eek:
In effect that means I'd be able to go from 6 x 20 --> 12x10 and that is 4 pins more efficient (26 pins vs 22 pins) that way i still could get the 32U4 and have it all?

Edit:missorientation of where the LEDs are
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 January 2021, 06:20:20 by cest73 »

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 04 January 2021, 14:47:01 »
Okay, here goes
* blueprintTKL2021_R02.pdf (732.63 kB - downloaded 21 times.)

259017-1
259019-2


I've fit the tiny atmega (because why not) and got all the keys (104) plus backlight plus 3 status led!


The schematic is posted for brevity too (no license yet, fair use please)


Fingers crossed and expecting comments.

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 04 January 2021, 15:17:54 »
TODO (didn't bother yet):
1- screw holes
2. programmer header
3. alternate status LED solder points

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 05 January 2021, 02:48:47 »
I think I am "there"...
259047-0
259049-1
It's beyond me why the Thru hole LED is connected inversely (had to correct that by had)?

Now i might try to add the optional switches and mounts...

After that, the mount plate is due

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 05 January 2021, 15:39:19 »
Okay,
* blueprintTKL2021_R04.pdf (218.46 kB - downloaded 18 times.)
259075-1
259077-2
Added key names to the silkscreen
Added key names to switches in the schematic (posted the PDF)


1. I checked the mapping and found there is ample space for additional keys in the matrix (the PDF is the annotated schematic)
2. I am very uncertain how will the program perform when i add the double/triple cutouts?


Some advice would be much appreciated


Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 05 January 2021, 18:00:42 »
This is what i need
259081-0
I think i have to figure out how to make custom footprints next


Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 07 January 2021, 16:49:37 »
Work is under way...
259325-0
* 2021-01-07_12-46-34.jpg (199.09 kB - downloaded 12 times.)
XDA keycaps i just received via snail-mail
I am:
1. making steps towards supporting the few most common layouts and key sets (ANSI ISO & co)
2. I have no intention to support each and every possible exotic layout and rare/odd space row(s)
3. i do plan to make a best effort to make this PCB switch agnostic in the sense of best switch stabilizer choice
4. the backlight polarity is chosen (hopefully correct) for the original linear illuminated ALPS switch + options
5. there will be issues and compromises down the road (my gut feeling)
6. i am seeking for a more bombastic name

« Last Edit: Thu, 07 January 2021, 16:58:20 by cest73 »

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 09 January 2021, 01:21:27 »
I think D31 is connected to the wrong row, how I spotted that first thing in the morning on mobile I'll never know!  I have not thoroughly checked the rest

Not sure what your problem is with the LED footprint - if it's 'bckwards' you can rotate the LED as it only has two pins.  One square pad on the same side throughout is all you need so you don't need to think during assembly.  Unless the label's wrong in which case you have a valid complaint...

One improvement would be a USB socket with proper through pins, at least for the shield (no, I don't know of one) as surface mount can be ripped off.  Also you could try and squeeze in some holes on the USB lines so if you do remove the socket you can easily wire it up to a break out board.

Good work :thumb:
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Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 09 January 2021, 02:12:15 »
I think D31 is connected to the wrong row, how I spotted that first thing in the morning on mobile I'll never know!  I have not thoroughly checked the rest
:eek:  if you only knew how many times I went over the schematic and the PCB to change one or another thing and never noticed that glaring error
Excellent find  :thumb:

Quote
Not sure what your problem is with the LED footprint - if it's 'bckwards' you can rotate the LED as it only has two pins.  One square pad on the same side throughout is all you need so you don't need to think during assembly.  Unless the label's wrong in which case you have a valid complaint...
As someone noted this might end up as public project (the files) so I understand it would be quite silly to leave an obvious wrong like that if I can address it in this stage - i will most certainly double check before publishing
Quote
One improvement would be a USB socket with proper through pins, at least for the shield (no, I don't know of one) as surface mount can be ripped off.  Also you could try and squeeze in some holes on the USB lines so if you do remove the socket you can easily wire it up to a break out board.


(roughed thru hole mini jack)

USB sockets are the root of all evils. Perhaps i should intentionally opt for the proper "big ass" USB "B" plug so we can use all the obsolete cables we still have lying around? No?
Other than that, a 4 pole plug/header of any sort is a reasonable option (will include) so one can just snip the end of the offending (and hurt inducing) cable and solder on the receptacle or just directly to the PCB

thru hole "proper" jack


Quote
Good work :thumb:
Kind thanks  :D

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 09 January 2021, 02:59:48 »
Not sure about USB B, with a connector that heavy on the cable you might rip it out as easily as the stuck on micro :P

There are micro sockets with 4 through hole shield legs, probably the best option if you don't want to go mini or C.
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Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 09 January 2021, 13:15:56 »
Not sure about USB B, with a connector that heavy on the cable you might rip it out as easily as the stuck on micro :p

There are micro sockets with 4 through hole shield legs, probably the best option if you don't want to go mini or C.
I didn't know there are that many options for the USB plug!

I concur with the through hole as the way to go - where the plug goes the board is sure to go too  :p


However, my personal experience is as following:

Cases of death:
  • Big ass USB receptacles  - none
  • mini USB receptacle - maybe few if any
  • micro USB receptacles - both cables, jacks and carrier boards went into shambles one too many times
  • type C - so far 2nd place by preference - it seats in nicely yet tightly and overall provides a good feeling when plugging in/out comparable perhaps only to the biggest option.
So, I might in fact consider the 6 pin SMD type C with 4 thru hole mounts for the shield  :thumb:


OTOH if we speak of cable congestion - it is the best to use cables too obsolete for the kids' phones and gadgets - just to be on the safe side  :rolleyes:


also here current progress pix
259436-0
259438-1
259440-2


Among other things so far - i traverse the damn thing with ease 3-5 times a day to apply a simple change across the hundred (and more) switching sub circuits ...


I already had errors that i only remedied by editing text files "by hand" (praise Geany!).


I have made a custom library of parts that i couldn't find among whats available on the internet - maybe i should share that once i'm over with the editing.


The darn thing is starting to look scary  :eek:

Offline TalkingTree

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 09 January 2021, 13:37:31 »
I might in fact consider the 6 pin SMD type C
That's for charging only.
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #22 on: Sat, 09 January 2021, 15:10:26 »
I might in fact consider the 6 pin SMD type C
That's for charging only.
And out of the window it is  :))

So mini or micro remains for the time

Offline TalkingTree

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #23 on: Sat, 09 January 2021, 16:42:09 »
So mini or micro remains for the time
Soldering the 16 pin USB-C is not that hard.
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 10 January 2021, 14:08:51 »
So mini or micro remains for the time
Soldering the 16 pin USB-C is not that hard.
I watched a YT video of building exactly that - an USB-C compact keyboard...


Perhaps i could live with that - also i liked the many protection options added to that build (polifuse, overvolt arrestor, inductors...)



Right now I'm considering to add option with USB-C or USB mini on the board - no harm to have it as an option i guess?

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 10 January 2021, 14:32:47 »
The mentioned YT series I've been watching

Offline TalkingTree

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 10 January 2021, 14:49:33 »
Right now I'm considering to add option with USB-C or USB mini on the board - no harm to have it as an option i guess?
Indeed, go with whatever you feel most confortable with.
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #27 on: Sun, 10 January 2021, 15:00:33 »
I still am curious to how You come about to make the G80-3000 keyboard PCB?

Was it a reliability issue with the original boards, the PS/2 going out of favor or the many favors of a cheap donor case fitting a sane and useful 104 key layout?

I ask because i am addressing a life long aggravation of space allocation on the desktop with this very project.

And yes, comfortable - as in general comfort is something that is very important in objects for daily usage like an keyboard, for instance.


So i regard this highly important - to the level i might even consider making it so both of the jacks could be present at once for the ultimate maximum convenience.

Offline TalkingTree

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #28 on: Sun, 10 January 2021, 15:12:29 »
I still am curious to how You come about to make the G80-3000 keyboard PCB?
Because Leeku's boards were nowhere to be found and I wanted to experiment. I generally prefer smaller boards infact all the GH80-3000 I made were given to friends.

So i regard this highly important - to the level i might even consider making it so both of the jacks could be present at once for the ultimate maximum convenience.
You could also consider an interchangable breakout board screwed in your case.
I made a type-C for your convenience (link). You can make a mini-B out of the same layout so to swap them around.
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #29 on: Sun, 10 January 2021, 22:41:37 »
I still am curious to how You come about to make the G80-3000 keyboard PCB?
Because Leeku's boards were nowhere to be found and I wanted to experiment. I generally prefer smaller boards infact all the GH80-3000 I made were given to friends.

fair, You have even more of my respect now
:thumb:
Quote
So i regard this highly important - to the level i might even consider making it so both of the jacks could be present at once for the ultimate maximum convenience.
You could also consider an interchangable breakout board screwed in your case.
I made a type-C for your convenience (link). You can make a mini-B out of the same layout so to swap them around.
259516-0
 :-\

OTOH i already made changes to the project, while i greatly appreciate the mini PCB and the offered design I'd rather have a single PCB overall so the option is present at all times -- even with both headers soldered on at once  on the extreme end

Offline TalkingTree

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Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 11 January 2021, 09:10:46 »
Damn!
259550-0
It is so cuute my inner nerd wants to keep it but my inner engineer says complexity kills roughedness and reliability  :'( :'(

259552-1
will certainly look up to it if you permit (fair use, credit where credit is due et cetera)

Offline TalkingTree

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 11 January 2021, 09:25:53 »
will certainly look up to it if you permit (fair use, credit where credit is due et cetera)
License is CC-BY-SA 3.0. You can even sell it for profit.
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 11 January 2021, 15:59:41 »
Profit You say  :thumb:


259606-0
259608-1
259610-2
* blueprintTKL2021_R06.pdf (843.65 kB - downloaded 21 times.)
NEW:
  • added the 5k1 resistors to USB-C
  • both connectors can be resent at once
  • only one can be used at any time
  • both are picked as the most robust option with the least SMD and the most through hole connections

TODO:
  • route the reset switch actually
  • cam through the BOM and make certain all components can be reasonably easy sourced by an PCB manufacturer outlet
  • sanity check the many vias and adjust accordingly
  • hand optimize the spaghetti traces as much as possible
  • check if the firmware supports PWM and spice-test the picked MOSFET if it does work at all for the LEDs in parallel
  • commit to producing 5 (10?) boards if the price can be around $20 per piece w/o any LEDs

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #34 on: Thu, 14 January 2021, 16:33:43 »
Progress:
259817-0
259819-1
259821-2
  • routed the switch and made the dual USB standard
  • added protections (OC & OV)
More subtle work to be done...
Stay tuned...


Offline TalkingTree

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #35 on: Thu, 14 January 2021, 16:48:04 »
North side in switch LEDs? What keyset are you using?
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline hanya

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #36 on: Thu, 14 January 2021, 18:15:20 »
SMD parts on both side? It cost much more than single sideded PCB.
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Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #37 on: Thu, 14 January 2021, 22:36:16 »
North side in switch LEDs? What keyset are you using?
Well ideally that would be south from the switch, but, alas, at one point i had such a mess beneath the 2 option CAPS that i moved it north, and i think i might get back to try to revisit the idea of south side LED.


In the worst case, it will still under-light the surrounding of the key and make it stand out, but ideally it would light up a keycap window and most if not all of them are on the south side (closest to the user)


Then, again, should it fail, i have them on the "standard" place right above the numpad.

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #38 on: Thu, 14 January 2021, 22:43:05 »
SMD parts on both side? It cost much more than single sideded PCB.
  • There is absolutely no way to avoid having parts on the bottom side, so only the top side parts could be moved down
  • I will try one more pass to see how many parts i can move from the top around the main chip
  • I can opt for placing only one side at the factory - SMD by hand ain't all that hard after all - if the cost is that much higher

Offline TalkingTree

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 15 January 2021, 01:57:21 »
it will still under-light the surrounding of the key and make it stand out
No, it won't. I know from experience.
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 15 January 2021, 12:55:31 »
it will still under-light the surrounding of the key and make it stand out
No, it won't. I know from experience.
Aww  :confused:


Made me rethink it and You seem to have a good point there - anything outside the illumination hole/area/aperture will simply be obscured by the plate - only (and that is too perhaps) a PCB mount switch could be optionally lit that way...


Where i only a step away from the drawing board that would be a hard back


I have to rethink the switch-illuminated option and if i can't figure it thru i will most likely abandon it  :( .



« Last Edit: Fri, 15 January 2021, 15:32:11 by cest73 »

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 15 January 2021, 16:02:26 »
I feel so validated


Just found out (it's two years old so no big deal)


  • Addressing exact same issue
  • doing it pretty much the same way
  • different enough for my layout not to be a copycat
Regarding the per switch status LEDs:
I will drive the same single switch illumination LED with both signals:
  • the backlight being the weaker
  • the status being the stronger one (about twice the miliamps) - and more pronounced one
this way it will both stand out clearly in both the dark and in the day light




Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #42 on: Sat, 16 January 2021, 07:03:51 »
Albeit slowly, we have reached the point of electrical engineerig considerations:
  • How will the 104+ LEDs fare while driven by the (unknown to me) DMG2301 MOSFET ?
  • what stresses and where will it incur?
  • how much will the tiny yet powerful 3201 impose on the Atmega pins? Can i drive it directly off an output pin or do i need a dedicated driver?
  • current surges? where will they occur? will they impact the operation of the "brains"?
  • how bright the LEDs will shine? how much current will be drawn?
Here comes LTSpice to rescue  :thumb:
259930-0
Attached find the approximate circuit that I used to decide if i need decoupling elements for the LED switch and which ones and where...

NOTE: this is WIP, so expect changes in both the layout in LTSpice and on the PCB later on


The last thing one needs is to make a prototype (commit to material) just to find out the product is emitting smoke or, worse yet, failing to emit anything at all  ;D


the big questions:
  • Will the 200% current spike spoil the LED brightness when present in PWM mode?
  • Will the 4mA per (white/amber/blue/<insert random color here>) LED current be enough for the to shine bright enough?
  • will the ~400mA current trigger the USB port protection circutry on the host PC using the keyboard?
  • will there be enough current in the USB port to drive the Atmega alongside the fully shining LEDs?
I leave as an exercise to the readers to master the highly useful LTSpice (aka SwitcherCAD) program i had so many hours to use and learn
(For those using GNU/Linux, just run it thru Wine abstraction layer)




Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #43 on: Sat, 16 January 2021, 09:53:27 »
I be damned  :-\


found another option...
259936-0


The BJT is lacking the intrinsic diode thus blocking current both ways, and those most modern late PNP BJT  are quite on par with those recent MOSFET switches!

enter: 2SAR552P

It can be driven off 30mA pins, can drive up to 3A pulses (way over USB supply) all in all a simpler switch, and if anything odd where to happen i have the fly back diode in place on the base (brought to bear should reverse current ever flow over the device)


Why this exotic PNP/PMOS layout you may wonder?


Earlier I  have decided to have all the backlit LEDs connected to common ground to make the PCB layout simpler, this mandates so called high side switching, and as far as i am aware this is most reliably achieved with BJT.


This is so due to BJT being current controlled devices that only slightly depend to discrete voltage levels - which are a moving target in said high side switching.


Further a note on the dreaded BJT thermal runaway (losing resistance under load and when heating up):
If a single device is used this is totally no issue - it loses resistance as it heats up - thus heating up less - that's about all


It remains only to find out the proper amount of milimaps required per LED to achieve the needed level for a backlit key effect.


This is the more difficult as we actually try make a board for more than just one color of LEDs (white, blue, amber, maybe more)

Am i overthinking this?


Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #44 on: Sun, 17 January 2021, 04:55:50 »
interesting!


it is an FKL design with straight (not mirrored) NP left-swap


i didn't notice all this abundance of the left swap before :^]


Offline whezil

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #45 on: Sun, 17 January 2021, 13:10:17 »
Is there a specific reason you are not using a daughterboard for the USB connection and are mounting it on the main PCB?
       

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #46 on: Sun, 17 January 2021, 16:19:24 »
Is there a specific reason you are not using a daughterboard for the USB connection and are mounting it on the main PCB?
Yes, the sturdiness of the connector - i like it be stiff and secure  to the keyboard body.


Is that a problem and why?

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #47 on: Sun, 17 January 2021, 16:28:00 »
The usual progress report:

I went to the Seedstudio PCB service and tested my gerber and drill files - they seem to work and i could pull off the bare PCB as low as sub 15 bucks for 10 - the five althought cheaper is oddly more expensive per piece - for $20 i get whole five more ?
I had everything dialed down except partial metalized holes (the complex LED holes for MX/ALPS SMD illumination)


That's about $150 for a ten batch w/o shipping.


Now i'm moving to make the BOM file acceptable to the service so i can check the SMD placement service too

What are the usual backlit board prices on average?


pix of the KiCAD design thus far:
259989-0
259991-1
259993-2

What is the most usually desired color besides always black?

White? Blue? Red?

Further, should i bother with vias to have the ground islands filled with copper too?
« Last Edit: Sun, 17 January 2021, 16:30:46 by cest73 »

Offline TalkingTree

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #48 on: Sun, 17 January 2021, 16:49:06 »
Why are you adding mounting holes at the corners? A Alps PCB requires a plate and that's where your mounting points should be.
Such a large board would flex in the middle if you mount it only by its corners.

Also, get a quote at JLCPBC, you might save a few dollars.
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #49 on: Sun, 17 January 2021, 17:10:13 »
two more services:


https://cart.jlcpcb.com/quote?orderType=1&stencilWidth=410&stencilLength=134&stencilCounts=10

and:

https://www.nextpcb.com/pcb-quote?layer=2&length=410&width=134&count=10&height=1.6

it seems i will only go for placing the 108 switch diodes and 108 LED resistors plus the ATMega and several more most delicate SMD components - the rest will be done "client side"  ;D


Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #50 on: Sun, 17 January 2021, 17:13:28 »
Why are you adding mounting holes at the corners? A Alps PCB requires a plate and that's where your mounting points should be.
Such a large board would flex in the middle if you mount it only by its corners.
I am aware but it's a "jack of all trades" board: 5 pin MX switches matter too - and a case with supports for the other (non corner mount holes) could address just that

I might be over engineering this a smidge?
Quote
Also, get a quote at JLCPBC, you might save a few dollars.
I just checked before i read Your post - quite interesting

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #51 on: Sun, 17 January 2021, 17:52:05 »
BOY!

- sub $60 for unknown amount of assembly but 10 black PCBs (only green and black have assembly at an reasonable qunatity) !

five are even as cheap too - around 25$ quite an offering!

Will check tomorrow to comply with their part library for the ATmega and the 108 resistors and diodes each - i highly doubt i will find the BJT and the other parts too?


Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #52 on: Mon, 18 January 2021, 17:33:41 »
Interestingly enough, JLCpcb has STT818B at their library (it's a perfect high side switcher for USB 2.0 applications)

However its out of stock - but luckily enough there is another BJT of like if not same spec - i will use that one in hopes to qualify for SMD placing besides the 108 diodes and 108 LED resistors and the ATMega - those would be a real pain to do by hand - and then troubleshoot afterward.


The board, however won't be in a state ready for programming from the box - there will be more DIY needed for USB or ISP header programming

Next i need adjust the BOM to best fit the JLCpcb library.

Offline hanya

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #53 on: Mon, 18 January 2021, 19:14:07 »
JLPCB SMT Assembly allows only single sided placement of the components. No both sided.
PFU HHKB JP, Sanwa MA-TB38 trackball

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #54 on: Tue, 19 January 2021, 02:59:23 »
JLPCB SMT Assembly allows only single sided placement of the components. No both sided.
yes, it seems so - fortunately i have the the most arduous groups of components on the "Side B" so that is the side i aim for their assembly service:


  • 108 pieces LED diode series resistor
  • 108 pieces switch diodes ( 108 is due to extra switch options present)
  • the QFP ATMega chip
  • the 16MHz crystal oscillator
  • several SMD capacitors
  • two SMD diodes (one flyback diode protecting the BJT and one insulation (Shottky) diode in between the power stage and the "brains")
  • the TVS (45 degree slanted for "better Feng Shui"  ;) )
  • the BJT
  • the two thru hole headers (not to be populated yet but they are there)
  • the optional SMD per switch illumination LEDs (to be soldered lit_side_down!) would belong to this side too
the 1-4 would be quite convenient to have machine placed and the 1-8 would be nice but quite doable by hand

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #55 on: Tue, 19 January 2021, 17:27:57 »
I realized i didn't show the layouts yet:


layout link


and forum-local image:
260048-0

In effect this means the left hand side numpad lends it self perfectly for a big  4x5 macro pad too


Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #56 on: Tue, 19 January 2021, 17:38:37 »
The right most side might not be clear at a first glance (the nav pad):
in the "default" layout the keys are each in their proper row sculpt - as seen in the 75% layout - so nothing special there.

However, if the layout is to be used with ALPS switches,  it might turn out the quite more scarce market offering might fail to provide for more than the standard 104 key layout - in that case the upper row is to be used for Home and PgUp  (as logic demands) , the "native" position is saved for the Insert/Delete tandem and the two lower most positions are populated with row 3 sculpted PgDn and End keys to both emphasize them different from the arrow keys, to pretend it was intentional and they are row 3 - the default most row of them all - perhaps it goes unnoticed  ;) .

If i could source the sleeve for the Speedseries G6v2/G7 BAE that is tailored to fit an MX switch plate slot we could have that for an option here too (if the PCB does not have to be drilled out too)



Offline TalkingTree

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #57 on: Wed, 20 January 2021, 01:25:49 »
(Attachment Link)
Also consider a 1.25 ANSI enter, there are kits with that and it doesn't take a place in the matrix. You can just wire it to the 2.25u enter.
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #58 on: Wed, 20 January 2021, 13:25:06 »
(Attachment Link)
Also consider a 1.25 ANSI enter, there are kits with that and it doesn't take a place in the matrix. You can just wire it to the 2.25u enter.
Would You, please, care to elaborate?


I ask more out of concern than curiosity, as im afraid that I'm about the limit of over crowding the layout without actually added value past certain point.
The question being if I've already past it or am about to?


If you, however can show me a national layout depending on that - that's a different story




Offline TalkingTree

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #59 on: Wed, 20 January 2021, 13:40:40 »
Would You, please, care to elaborate?

Like so.

If you, however can show me a national layout depending on that - that's a different story
None off the top of my head.
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #60 on: Wed, 20 January 2021, 15:55:55 »
Would You, please, care to elaborate?

Like so.

If you, however can show me a national layout depending on that - that's a different story
None off the top of my head.
I see, IMHO that's a wee tiny enter to justify adding it just for giggles, i'll respectfully wait You come up with a national layout.


Meanwhile i'll attend other nuances of the good idea --> possible to manufacture last trivial road bump i have still ahead  ;D


I'll attach the layout pointed out here for posterity
260119-0

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #61 on: Wed, 20 January 2021, 17:01:28 »
so far only found this

In effect that is a super custom layout and has nothing to do will international layouts - they merely try to have a keyboard with less keys but can't do without so they trade them around.


This might be quite the opposite of what I am all about here - do away with omitting keys - I just move them around until i solve the issue.


Attention: long read ahead!


Perhaps i could list some of the rules that guided my design process:
note: in further text layout = the standard ISO/ANSI 104 key layout
  • "Leave no one behind" - all standard layout keys should be there one way or the other
  • "Act normal" - use as much as possible the standard key sculpt of the layout
  • "Be polite" - make no undue changes to the layout
  • "Be sensible" - try make it so the changes can be adopted as easy as possible
  • "Be attractive" - try make the new layout as easy to equip with casual custom key caps as possible (due to the ALPS option)

ALPS is important to me - as I suspect I might not settle with a MX in the long run - I tried the black SCKMs and got spoiled to a certain degree
I use blender 3D, play particular video games and otherwise tend to use the various blocks of the keyboard more than the casual user - I want it all

The issue
It just so happens the mouse and keyboard battle over desktop real estate - and mouse is winning  ;D


I realized from the get go I can't do without the numpad - so it had to stay. TKL was a no go (unfortunately as they come in great variety and are cheaper than ever)


Using a compact keyboard (ML4100 lookalike) i realized I can't do even without all "row 0" keys too: I need both controls, alts and the menu key as well. However I can do with the displaced navblock - as long as it's layout is sensible and all in one place - also I use five of the six on regular basis (I know: I'm a weirdo... ).


So I opted for the casual 75% layout, as the TKL one offered 4 columns[size=78%] [/size]of space saving vs 6+ if I move the nav block the 75% way that's a 50% improvement in my book...


But what about the numpad?


If I buy a second one it just makes most sense to keep it out of mouses way - so on the left hand side - but then it is "inverted" as muscle memory is for the right hand and right side (is there ever an end to suffering?)


It was only logical I fuse the now mirrored numblock to the keyboard and save money (and further desktop real estate). This way the muscle memory will serve the left hand in (natural) mirrored mode: little pinky presses the enter, toe presses the zero, pointing finger presses the NP_7 et cetera...


I am yet to test the delight of running a spreadsheet input session with the right hand free for the mouse but I jump ahead of my self...


What about the arrow keys?
Two things:
  • if the arrow keys where on the right hand side it would defeat the whole purpose of the "WASD" scheme and the WASD vs arrow keys duality - they had to stay on the right side  period.
  • the whole point of the TKL and full layout are the ease one finds the arrow keys due to the gaps - the negative space is important too - so I sacrificed 1/4 of a unit to the gods of luxury as well - I had a good head start with 6 rows to spare, if we count the standard layout with 1/2 unit gaps -i save even more than 6U in some cases and that's a Space_bar worth of space saved.

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #62 on: Thu, 21 January 2021, 03:58:50 »
So far found only the native Japanese layout (jp106) demanding three (3!) more keys in the space-bar row


Including that shorted shift but not a shorted enter too



« Last Edit: Thu, 21 January 2021, 11:24:00 by cest73 »

Offline Applet

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #63 on: Thu, 21 January 2021, 06:30:32 »
For the alps keycap support, I'd recommend to add a halfstepped capslock (like on old dell/granite-boards) and maybe support the use of tsangan bottom row/7u space and keycaps? The short R-shift might be an issue with a lot of alps sets, but it will be hard to use anything else with this layout I guess

Personally, I think the AEK-keycaps is among the best in the Alps-world, but then you have some other issues like 6.5u space, rotated function-keys etc.
« Last Edit: Thu, 21 January 2021, 06:32:23 by Applet »

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #64 on: Thu, 21 January 2021, 11:34:12 »
For the alps keycap support, I'd recommend to add a halfstepped capslock (like on old dell/granite-boards) and maybe support the use of tsangan bottom row/7u space and keycaps? The short R-shift might be an issue with a lot of alps sets, but it will be hard to use anything else with this layout I guess
And there I was hoping to have that base covered with Tai Hao ...
I made provision for their 3000 stepped caps lock and the usual flat one
However there seems to be one more with the stem even more lateral at least for MX switches?


Quote
Personally, I think the AEK-keycaps is among the best in the Alps-world, but then you have some other issues like 6.5u space, rotated function-keys etc.
A link to specs would be greatly appreciated!


Also what is Tsangan?


this?
« Last Edit: Thu, 21 January 2021, 16:17:00 by cest73 »

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #65 on: Thu, 21 January 2021, 17:59:31 »
I am investigating this now:
260199-0


It appears i have the space in the space row and i intend to make few new custom switch layouts for the 1/8 shifting to avoid layout element collisions on drilling...


the current link (will change as i go on)
« Last Edit: Thu, 21 January 2021, 18:01:54 by cest73 »

Offline TalkingTree

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #66 on: Fri, 22 January 2021, 01:17:41 »
Tsangan kits are keycaps sets addons for WKL layouts, named after the user.

Also, you don't need include a big ass enter placeholder as it's mounted on the ISO enter.
You do, instead, might wanna consider a more symmetrical split spacebar, like so. Last variation only takes two extra switches in the matrix.
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline Applet

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #67 on: Fri, 22 January 2021, 03:00:43 »
this?
Yes, the 7u bottom-row what what I was referring to :D

And there I was hoping to have that base covered with Tai Hao ...
I made provision for their 3000 stepped caps lock and the usual flat one
However there seems to be one more with the stem even more lateral at least for MX switches?
Not sure about the Tai Hao keycaps, but in MX-land, there is two common capslock keycaps, one non-stepped and one stepped. In alps, there is another capslock position in between the two mx positions that is also pretty common.
260209-0

A link to specs would be greatly appreciated!
I don't think there is a spec-sheet for the AEK-keycaps unfortunately, but the bottom row is a uncommon 1.5, 1.25, 1.5, 6.5, 1.5, 1.25, 1.5 and the top row switches is rotated 90 degrees. Not sure if it's worth it, adding the support, if you don't have plans on using those keycaps. I've not seen any other Alps board using it.

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #68 on: Fri, 22 January 2021, 03:21:37 »
Tsangan kits are keycaps sets addons for WKL layouts, named after the user.

This topic turns quickly into a rabbit hole (so far i like that :p )...

I have nothing against additional keys and switches per se - but that thing right there - doing away with most of the keyboard (TKL, 60%) just to be struggling with missing keys and then come back adding them where they interfere with habitual finger strokes (had feedback about my 1.75u right shift vs the regular 2.75u already elsewhere :'( )


The possibility to change things however alluring is not my goal right here - i want a daily driver fit for most users among us - once I'm over with the design (once I like it really) it will most likely be published for others to butcher to their liking and knock them selves out for doing so  :thumb: .


But, for now I want a less exciting and more casual layout, since I already burdened it with the "75%" navblock and the "1800" arrow block layout . That is already enough to process for some of us. Not to mention the mirrored left hand numpad  ;)

Quote
Also, you don't need include a big ass enter placeholder as it's mounted on the ISO enter.
You do, instead, might wanna consider a more symmetrical split spacebar, like so. Last variation only takes two extra switches in the matrix.
I was more concerned for the availability of the particular switches (i have no hope for ALPS here really) in the space row than the PCB issues at this stage.
My second concern was the size of the space bar - 2u seemed a bit stringent, but what do i know i never used (nor plan to) a jp106 layout...


260211-0


so far i got to here (that's a permalink this time)


this way i get:
  • 6.25u space bar option (for new key caps - Cherry stem users will more likely resort to those)
  • 7u space bar option (for ALPS stem users or us, who like bad ass legacy key caps :p )
  • two options for the Japanese input method (WKL or inclusive)
The BAE option is there for another reason - Tai Hao seems to be offering the 7G set for quite few of their running products, so i figured it would be quite a handy (and affordable) option if i could see thru to have that one missing guide figured out:
I actally have ordered one BAE from Tai Hao and hope to check the alignment and issues with having the missing guide engineered and 3d printed ...


That is a thing I plan to delve into at a later stage here


Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #69 on: Fri, 22 January 2021, 03:39:03 »
this?
Yes, the 7u bottom-row what what I was referring to :D
:thumb:
Quote

And there I was hoping to have that base covered with Tai Hao ...
I made provision for their 3000 stepped caps lock and the usual flat one
However there seems to be one more with the stem even more lateral at least for MX switches?

Not sure about the Tai Hao keycaps, but in MX-land, there is two common capslock keycaps, one non-stepped and one stepped. In alps, there is another capslock position in between the two mx positions that is also pretty common.
(Attachment Link)

Tai Hao calls them 3000 and 3800 and my bad i was going for the 3800 one with the ALPS option:
  • the casual CAPS key has its stem in the middle of 1.75u of its length
  • the 3800 (likely named after some keyboard model) has the stem on the non-recessed 1.5 wide "middle point" (that's about 1/8 to the left looking at the switch from above)
  • the 3000 has the stem further yet at the 1.25 middle point another 1/8 to the left so the stem is almost on the side and not on the middle of the footprint. Tai Hao makes switches which are 1.5 wide at the top but still have the stem shifted when looked at the switch from the bottom side

IMHO that's a lot of shifting, for a PCB to hold the switch any good if one plans to have it compatible with both standards - perhaps i figure out only particular switches should be at the extremes?

Quote

A link to specs would be greatly appreciated!

I don't think there is a spec-sheet for the AEK-keycaps unfortunately, but the bottom row is a uncommon 1.5, 1.25, 1.5, 6.5, 1.5, 1.25, 1.5 and the top row switches is rotated 90 degrees. Not sure if it's worth it, adding the support, if you don't have plans on using those keycaps. I've not seen any other Alps board using it.

AEK stands for Apple Extended Keyboard - a valuable source for cheap ALPS keycaps :facepalm:


I have no intention to chase the many space bar lengths of the AEK-verse at this point - i have to draw a line somewhere.


That should remain a option for others to pursuit after i publish the files once I'm done.






Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #70 on: Sat, 23 January 2021, 11:48:15 »
Did you miss me?
260432-0
260434-1
260436-2
260438-3
 TODO:
split up the space bar for jp106 layout (2u+2u+1.5u+1.5u (for 7U space place) / 1.5u+2u+1.5u+1.25u (for 6.25u space place)as shown here also please no hate for the 7G BAE ;D


Offline TalkingTree

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #71 on: Sat, 23 January 2021, 13:01:09 »
How about splitting your 7u with 1.5, 1.5 1.5, 2u, 2u, 1.5, 1.5 1.5? You would get symmetry.

Also, one cool thing to do, is to used the solder mask for icons and images in lieu of the silkscreen.

Like so.
260446-0
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #72 on: Sat, 23 January 2021, 19:00:22 »
How about splitting your 7u with 1.5, 1.5 1.5, 2u, 2u, 1.5, 1.5 1.5? You would get symmetry.

I suspect a typo there, my math says 1.5+1.5+1.5+2+2+1.5+1.5+1.5 = 13 and I'm quite certain you didn't want that?

Further i suspect you try aim the 2u segment hit the switch of the big bar?

I didn't bother really, if i already resolved the CAPS and 1/8 shifting of the Ctrl and other horrors, I really didn't bother - just made the split look most ergonomic and pleasing to the eye.

It is totally different can of worms once I commit to the PCB manufacturer - there will the real fun begin...

Quote

Also, one cool thing to do, is to used the solder mask for icons and images in lieu of the silkscreen.

Like so.
(Attachment Link)
 
That is both cool, aesthetically pleasing and inspiring !


will consider most certainly


260462-0
260464-1
the last round thus far (found errors too!)
260466-2
i couldn't find any empty place left in the matrix: the three MOD keys share place with optional other keys...


Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #73 on: Sun, 24 January 2021, 05:56:13 »
Now that i have mostly settled with the switches and electric options (changed the diode resistors from 47 to 680 Ohm each) it is time i do the switch plate.


What services would you recommend?


It seems i will be needing more than one switch plate - the mixed layout is too dense for anything but cherry MX alone,


The ALPS layout, should i resort to modern keycaps will require Cherry or Costar stabilizers - but on some places the switches are simply not latching to the plate due to the numerous stacked cutouts - sort of defeating the plate's role in a way. Should i resort to ALPS stabilizers (already have a set here) the plate has to bear one and only one layout as those stabilizers interfere in an inopportune way with the switch cutouts.


Further I am thinking the Aluminium as a material being more stiff than steel, the thickness being the same, is of lesser preference (anodized or stainless steel none the less) but I've read there are other options too - the PCB service seems to be a reasonable alternative - especially the plate being less stiff.




Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #74 on: Tue, 26 January 2021, 10:42:47 »
It tuns out two more obstacles to overcome on my goal to the perfect keyboard for me:


1. Case (it ain't as easy going as piking up a 60% eh?)


2. ALPS key set is missing few options - there will be DIY - i'm going to try converting MX to ALPS stem DIY way.


Other than that i'm fine thank you.
 :D

Offline TalkingTree

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #75 on: Tue, 26 January 2021, 13:05:02 »
1. Case (it ain't as easy going as piking up a 60% eh?)
That's gonna hit your wallet pretty hard.

2. ALPS key set is missing few options - there will be DIY - i'm going to try converting MX to ALPS stem DIY way.
What are you missing?
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #76 on: Tue, 26 January 2021, 22:41:30 »
1. Case (it ain't as easy going as piking up a 60% eh?)
That's gonna hit your wallet pretty hard.
I will invest the best of my smarts to make as small of a dent as possible, but alas, I am aware of just that :'(
i have some raw oak as an option, some remaining 2 mm Al sheet too...

Quote
2. ALPS key set is missing few options - there will be DIY - i'm going to try converting MX to ALPS stem DIY way.
What are you missing?
A. 1U R4 (for the main Fn key)
B. 1U R1 for R_Alt, Menu and Win key
C. 1.75U R1 for R_Shift key
Ideally in "Tomcat" theme.


So far the options are:
A. get a surplus NP_minus form same key set (blue)
B. get Cursor arrow keys from same source ("up","right","down" respectably; blue)
C. do the modding on an white on blue TaiHao MX keycap i'm about to order (got the 2.75 shift key that i can't use)


Offline TalkingTree

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #77 on: Wed, 27 January 2021, 01:38:47 »
So far the options are:
A. get a surplus NP_minus form same key set (blue)
B. get Cursor arrow keys from same source ("up","right","down" respectably; blue)
C. do the modding on an white on blue TaiHao MX keycap i'm about to order (got the 2.75 shift key that i can't use)
D. Buy a ALPS keyset on Aliexpress?
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #78 on: Wed, 27 January 2021, 08:05:33 »
[snip]
D. Buy a ALPS keyset on Aliexpress?
I was about to, but the sheer amount of choices and variants makes me anxious as to err with the choice, missing the right one for just little </sarcasm>


joking aside, i found and bought the balnk DSA kit already but short of that - no dice.


Any links would be greatly appreciated.


Also, i get all that's offered at Aliexpress on E-bay too and for same if not more affordable price and shipping options, am I stupid or what?


Offline TalkingTree

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #79 on: Wed, 27 January 2021, 11:34:40 »
Also, i get all that's offered at Aliexpress on E-bay too and for same if not more affordable price and shipping options, am I stupid or what?
Different stores, same wares, different prices, that's absolutely normal.
Go with the cheaper option.
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #80 on: Thu, 28 January 2021, 02:31:21 »
There is also another option I was initially frowning upon, but as time passes it seems ever less off putting:


E. Put an MX switch on that place and be done with it: if you can;t find just about any possible or impossible kaycap with an MX stem you should be doing gardening or sheep sheering and not custom keyboard DIY in the first place.


So right now I am still considering every of the named options and as i go along some of them will become closed windows of opportunity until the final day of that build...
The WoB MX stem set:
260667-0
The Tomcat Alps stem set (which colors I find so beautiful in nature)
260669-1

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Mirrored 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #81 on: Sun, 31 January 2021, 04:27:21 »
As things go, I made a boo boo too  ;D


Changed the name of the project, it's now Ten Key Mirrored - due to having the option to mirror the "tenkey" block... it might change again - should there be an excuse


current progress:
Due to case considerations i changed the PCB size - i squeezed it somewhat to have a specific case option.


That meant moving USB port => that meant moving the MCU + the accompanying parts => that meant rerouting everything around and so on - quite fun!


Had the PCB exported to WRL and then i played with blender (modeling possible cases...)


261041-0
261043-1
261045-2
261047-3
What do you know, i'm now missing keycaps in blender too  :eek:


Either case is 2 mm Aluminum sheet and some wood blocks where plastic could/would normally go (i like the soviet era retro futuristic effect of combining the ultra cheap AL with exclusive wood)


Do feel free to pick your favorite case option, tho there might be more coming as i get the idea for it...


Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #82 on: Sun, 31 January 2021, 04:35:56 »
That ISP port looks very tall.

I think it would be easier to pick a case if the 'light' was in front rather than covering the visible sides in shadow.  Think the back one is a highly textured squashed tube which is different.  I like different :)
120/100g linear Zealio R1  
GMK Hyperfuse
'Split everything' perfection  
MX Clear
SA Hack'd by Geeks     
EasyAVR mod

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #83 on: Sun, 31 January 2021, 07:59:40 »
Good points,


The ISP port was only placed as a mock up really - possibly should use a lower one or just solder wires directly to the pads in a pinch


Will pay more attention to the composition of the 3d rendering scene once i'm done with the nuisance of collecting the keycaps (missing some still) and polishing the PCB layout finally


Still all valid points, greatly appreciate the input!  :thumb:

Offline TalkingTree

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #84 on: Sun, 31 January 2021, 09:40:17 »
The ISP port was only placed as a mock up really - possibly should use a lower one or just solder wires directly to the pads in a pinch
ISP ports are usually an emergency measure most of the times. You rarely need to reflash the bootloader or change the MCU's fuses.
Just have the pads traced for the sake of it but don't expect to use them very often or at all.
My opensource projects: GH80-3000, TOAD, XMMX. Classified: stuff

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #85 on: Sun, 31 January 2021, 12:14:39 »
The ISP port was only placed as a mock up really - possibly should use a lower one or just solder wires directly to the pads in a pinch
ISP ports are usually an emergency measure most of the times. You rarely need to reflash the bootloader or change the MCU's fuses.
Just have the pads traced for the sake of it but don't expect to use them very often or at all.
This very much supports my experience thus far too.


I have been busy in the meanwhile...
261105-0
Internet is wrong (tm):
It is possible to import dae/obj files directly into the free (and olde/golden) 2.79b blender and export it directly into VRML2 that will work in KiCAD as is
261107-1
The pudding of proof  :p


so, i have the rugged USB-type C 2.0 only receptacle on one and likewise rugged USB mini B receptacle next to it and both render in KiCAD baby!


further progress is soon to come now that i've been over this li'l' bump ...


P.S.
The newer blender lack the plugins most likely due to maintainers stopping to develop/track the updates over time  :-\

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #86 on: Sat, 06 February 2021, 04:44:43 »
status report:

redoing it from scratch (borked the layout for JLC and other reasons)


261573-0


A clean start sometimes helps get rid of the residue from (all?) previous builds

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #87 on: Sun, 07 February 2021, 17:05:36 »
Most of the PCB layout is redone from scratch

I'm eyeballing the details in regards to switches, the options i will keep or drop and such...

So far the BAE might stay as an option from Tai Hao.

the 3 modifier for Japanese 106 layout stay, but what do i do to the ten key block?


I had only 3-5 key spare and those are gone to the:
Mod 1
Mod 2
Mod 3
"shiftling"
"enterling"
NP equal (next to NP plus)


what key do i set to best share the NP_00 and NP_Enterling of those I listed?


Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #88 on: Mon, 08 February 2021, 16:28:54 »
Dropped the jp106 option...


stay tuned...

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #89 on: Fri, 19 February 2021, 18:30:25 »
long time, many changes went over the head...
I adopted the daughter board advice


reworked the thing over and over


Teensy 2.0 (most pins least cost)


I am considering a fixed cable option as a final one right now.
Sleeping over and going for the order tomorrow hopefully
262579-0
262581-1
262583-2
262585-3
262587-4
262589-5

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #90 on: Sun, 21 February 2021, 01:23:57 »
Is there enough height in those cases for a teensy raised above a switch pin?  You don't want to short it to the grounded USB socket right above it...
120/100g linear Zealio R1  
GMK Hyperfuse
'Split everything' perfection  
MX Clear
SA Hack'd by Geeks     
EasyAVR mod

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #91 on: Mon, 22 February 2021, 14:11:11 »
Is there enough height in those cases for a teensy raised above a switch pin?  You don't want to short it to the grounded USB socket right above it...
Walid question and my primary concern too:
262806-0
262808-1
And the cutaway:
262810-2
And side view:
262812-3
I have the KiCAD design submitted for fabrication at JLCPCB...

Offline cest73

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Re: Ten Key Left 2021 (full size 104 key custom keyboard)
« Reply #92 on: Fri, 26 February 2021, 09:22:01 »
Only 3 submitted iterations later  ;D
263061-0
263063-1
263065-2
And the MX plate depicted as made of birch plywood too
263067-3
This very design got approved for production and is now undergoing various phases and processing...


The plates should be made of:
-Birch plywood
-PCB material (FR4)
-Al sheet metal
And i think i will have them made on a CNC router at a friends workshop, stay tuned for updates...