Suggest a keyboard

[nd4speed]

I'm looking for a standard layout keyboard with Topre keys AND is ergonomic. Is there such a thing? Thanks.

[itlnstln]

is ergonomic.

Can you qualify this part?  Pretty much all Topre-based 'boards are ergonomic in a sense.  There is the uTron if you're looking for something split, but it will probably fail your "standard layout" requirement.  If you're looking for something along the lines of a Microsoft Natural keyboard with Topres, you're not going to find it, unfortunately.

BTW, welcome to Geekhack!

[nd4speed]

Thanks. By ergonomic I mean something that is designed to address RSI (pronation and other root causes). I found the split key uTron you mentioned in this thread. This might fit the bill nicely. Does anyone have this and what are your impressions? Any ideas on how to order it? Thanks again.

[itlnstln]

Webwit and, I think, Haata have one.  You should be able to find something in the review area.  Webwit thought the layout was brilliant, but the keys rattled a bit.  Overall, though, he loved it. They are pretty expensive (about $500), and you can only get them from Japan, so you would need to use an ordering services.  You can find out more about the ordering services in the wiki.

[nd4speed]

Great info, thanks.

[HaaTa]

Yeah, the keys are a little rattly, but you don't really notice it while typing.

Layout is amazing, had to remap one of the special Japanese keys to a Windows/Super key, but that was about it. Still haven't figured out the TRON layout, not that I care as a Colemak user (there's two different keyboard controllers I'm pretty sure with the μTRON).

I also like the fact that it's uniform 45g Topres (I don't like the weighted keys that much).

I never got the wrist pads like webwit did, they look awesome; however, since I use a standing desk, they are not really useful to me. Highly recommended if you sit while typing (9,450円 though...).

As for a place to get it...hmm, well, I only know of 1 store in Japan that actually carries it, Cleverly. There are a few online retailers though, here, and the actual supplier.

Unfortunately for you, is that none of the online retailers actually ship outside of Japan. So you pretty much either have to visit Japan, or use a broker (I've checked their web stores to confirm this, you might get lucky if you can send them an email in Japanese though...).

Some more pics.

[HaaTa]

Oh I should mention, if you don't touch type, ergo layouts are useless to you. And the smaller key caps, are small (e.g. if you have sausage fingers, turn away...).

[itlnstln]

Ripster, would you say the switches on the uTron felt closer to the Realforce line or the HHKB aside from the rattling (just for reference)?

As ripster alluded to, the uTron keys are smaller than normal.

[nd4speed]

Thanks HaaTa, last question, does this keyboard play nice on a Mac?

I think geekstuff4u.com will be able to get this for me, I'll ask them about it and report back.

Before plunking down $600 you might want to get a cheaper (lol) Topre just to make sure you like the switches.

I've been a HHKB pro user for years, I'm pretty happy with it (no pun intended:D).

[hyperlinked]

Thanks. By ergonomic I mean something that is designed to address RSI (pronation and other root causes).

RSI is caused by excessive typing. Pronation exacerbates RSI symptoms for some people, but not all of them.

Most split keys don't really address pronation... well, maybe just a little, but there's only minor change in pronation of the wrists on a typical split key over a traditional keyboard. If you truly need to address pronation as a major cause of your RSI symptoms, you'll have to look for one of those funky split vertical keyboards or a Kinesis Contour. (emphasized not because I'm screaming at you, but because what works for you might not work for the next person who says he's got RSI)

[itlnstln]

I used to like split keyboards, and while I still wouldn't mind having one, I have solved most of my pronation problems by sitting further away from the keyboard.

[HaaTa]

Thanks HaaTa, last question, does this keyboard play nice on a Mac?

Yeah, it should work just fine with Mac. Just a normal keyboard, if you don't use the special Windows drivers (no real reason too unless you want to use their super Japanese layout).

[HaaTa]

Ripster, would you say the switches on the uTron felt closer to the Realforce line or the HHKB aside from the rattling (just for reference)?

I have less experience with the HHKB, but I think the uTron is somewhat closer to the Realforce line in key feel.
But in truth, it's different than either of them. Still feels like a Topre, but having a shorter key travel than both the HHKBs and Realforces, makes it hard to compare.

[itlnstln]

It sounds like one of the "exotic" Topre variants rdjack21 was messing around with.  Damn, even Topres are about as consistent as any other switch.

[nd4speed]

RSI is caused by excessive typing. Pronation exacerbates RSI symptoms for some people, but not all of them.

Most split keys don't really address pronation... well, maybe just a little, but there's only minor change in pronation of the wrists on a typical split key over a traditional keyboard. If you truly need to address pronation as a major cause of your RSI symptoms, you'll have to look for one of those funky split vertical keyboards or a Kinesis Contour. (emphasized not because I'm screaming at you, but because what works for you might not work for the next person who says he's got RSI)

Admittedly my only point of reference for "ergonomic" keyboards is the MS Natural Keyboard. That keyboard was wider apart and angled upwards. When I used to have it, I noticed that I could type for longer periods of time before experiencing fatigue (generally, as well as in the wrist area). I believe these two characteristics (despite being subtle) helped, at least in my case.

If possible I'd like my next board to have the same Topre tactile feedback, otherwise I would have gone for a Kinesis or Safetype which is probably "more ergonomic".

[itlnstln]

Your best bet might be finding a Cherry MX-5000 Ergo Plus with Cherry browns.  While not Topres, the Cherry browns are pretty nice and a good switch for what you are looking for.  The problem is, they are fairly rare and aren't seen often in the US.  The are a little more common in Europe, and you might even find someone here that might sell you one or act as a broker if one pops up on eBay there.

[nd4speed]

Your best bet might be finding a Cherry MX-5000 Ergo Plus with Cherry browns.  While not Topres, the Cherry browns are pretty nice and a good switch for what you are looking for.  The problem is, they are fairly rare and aren't seen often in the US.  The are a little more common in Europe, and you might even find someone here that might sell you one or act as a broker if one pops up on eBay there.

Wow $1K for a keyboard? I'm not sure I could justify going that far past the $500 mark (even if one ever became available:biggrin:).

[itlnstln]

Wow $1K for a keyboard? I'm not sure I could justify going that far past the $500 mark (even if one ever became available:biggrin:).

Pricing on those is very inconsistent.  There was a rash of them popping up on eBay in Europe a year or so ago for around 10-15 Euros, and there have been others that have bought them for less than that (including NIB).  That said, when they do show up in the US, they tend to be pretty expensive.

[ch_123]

$1K for the Cherry MX5000? Aren't they meant to be... ****?

[itlnstln]

Double shot keycaps and Cherry browns couldn't be all that bad.  I thought Webwit said his was OK, but I could be wrong.

[ch_123]

I think he said they were ok in the context of paying something like €20 for one =P

$1K will buy you two M15s...

[itlnstln]

Yeah, where did the $1K come from?  I knew they got up into the $300-500 range in the US, but I don't recall seeing them get up into the $1K range, though.  I don't think I would ever pay even $200 for one.  I would rather have something brand new in that price range.  M15s might be worthy of that price tag, but I still wouldn't pay it.

[nd4speed]

Yeah, where did the $1K come from?  I knew they got up into the $300-500 range in the US, but I don't recall seeing them get up into the $1K range, though.  I don't think I would ever pay even $200 for one.  I would rather have something brand new in that price range.  M15s might be worthy of that price tag, but I still wouldn't pay it.

My bad. I saw it in another thread here mentioning it was up for auction for over $1k, searching a little more I guess it can go for a lot less than that (if you can find one).