Author Topic: Programmer deepening the ergo journey  (Read 1809 times)

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Offline 2disbetter

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Programmer deepening the ergo journey
« on: Tue, 26 January 2021, 13:44:28 »
Hello fellow keyboard experts. My story feels unique to me, but I'm sure it is similar to many here. I started out on regular qwerty like everyone. Never learned to touch type in the traditional sense. I can type blind no problem (120 wpm). I've moved to a split but standard layout keyboard with the UHK. I used it closed for a while before I ever split it. I was concerned that splitting it would slow down the typing too much. I mean because of the kind of non-standard way I type, I'm not even really all that sure about the improvements I would see with conforming to an ergo layout. However, I read about how the layout we have now is a hold out from the beginning of the typewriter era, etc. It really does make sense that improved layouts would see great efficiency and have more comfort.

So I bought a Moonlander. At first I dropped to 30 wpm and was frustrated. But after only 2 days I'm back up to 50 wpm, but still frustrated.

I guess the point I'm trying to make, and the advice I'd like to hear from you all is, does going full ergo like with a Moonlander REALLY improve anything other than comfort? With a traditional staggered but spit layout, my wrists are aligned and I feel pretty comfortable all together typing. So I wonder, is it REALLY worth the effort to learn something like the Moonlander / Ergodox?

Offline nevin

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Re: Programmer deepening the ergo journey
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 26 January 2021, 14:03:15 »
it's totally personal preference, and does take some time to get used to the alternate layout. give it more time. you're making great progress in just a couple days.

i've been on a split ortho for a couple years now and you couldn't pay me to go back to a standard staggered keyboard.
my experience was like yours, only i type a LOT slower but had never learned to touch type before building mine (with blank caps).
things i like over standard stagger
- numpad on layer - i use the number pad a lot more than the number row and it's fantastic to have the numberpad right there under where your hand already is.
- it made touch type, and type a lot better. i was doing strange crosses towards the center of the board.. like "y" with left hand or "b" with right etc...
- totally programmable, change the firmware to whatever suits you best. did i mention programmable? lol
- i much prefer the hand separation over a normal non-split board, or something in-between like an alice.
- i do more shortcuts and key commands than actual typing and chording keys is a lot easier with an ergo type layout when you can hold two or three keys down with one finger for a command or action.
- there's a layout available for just about everybody. tons of different sizes & shapes of ergo boards. i prefer a slightly larger ortho board than most. i use split 5x7 grids which is a lot less popular than 5x6s or smaller.
Keeb.io Viterbi, Apple m0110, Apple m0120, Apple m0110a, Apple 658-4081, Apple M1242, Apple AEK II, MK96, GH60/Pure, Cherry g84-4100, Adesso AKP-220B, Magicforce 68

Offline 2disbetter

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Re: Programmer deepening the ergo journey
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 27 January 2021, 02:31:45 »
Thanks Nevin, I really appreciate the reply. I think you are right with regard to the preference thing. If there was any kind of empirical data on ergo ortho, being better in productivity means we hear about it non-stop. I think it is sort of like bikes. You can buy the most expensive carbon frame known to man, and get dropped by someone on a huffy who is merely in much better shape. That is to say it is the typists which makes the keyboard. In this way using one that is more comfortable is really just up to the user.

I'm typing this response on the Moonlander, and I feel that I have greatly improved in such a short time. Turns out muscle memory isn't non-malleable after all. I was initially worried that getting more proficient on the moonlander would wreck my ability to use a standard keyboard when I need to. This has proven not to be the case.

Offline nevin

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Re: Programmer deepening the ergo journey
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 27 January 2021, 08:24:54 »
yes, same goes with your setup... you can have the "best" equipment (desk, chair, monitor stand, keyboard, etc...) but if you are not following good ergonomics or have bad typing/ergonomic habits all the fanciest equipment in the world won't be able to help you.

i was commenting in a thread about this the other day. person had an expensive setup and was having pain issues. turns out it was just their posture that was causing the issue.

muscle-memory... i know. i was thinking the same thing. i also thought it would be hard to go back to a standard board (or laptop) after using a split ortho for so long. again, turns out that's not the case. probably because i'm not using some kind of alternate keymap like colemak, dvorak, workman, etc....

if you're looking for performance... what you know the best and have used the most will give you the best performance.
- i use an alternate keyboard because i can do some things with it i can't do on a more common keyboard. (numpad layer, more comfortable chording key commands)
- same goes for my mouse, not so much the form but more the function. i have a couple now that are totally programmable in the way that you can use keyboard codes/actions in the mouse firmware. one example is i have the wheel button as "enter/return" so i can quickly get through prompts, etc. without taking my hand off the mouse or mousing over to the "ok" button.. sounds simple and silly but makes a big difference in what i do.
Keeb.io Viterbi, Apple m0110, Apple m0120, Apple m0110a, Apple 658-4081, Apple M1242, Apple AEK II, MK96, GH60/Pure, Cherry g84-4100, Adesso AKP-220B, Magicforce 68

Offline 2disbetter

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Re: Programmer deepening the ergo journey
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 27 January 2021, 13:06:58 »
This is more of a burst test, but things are looking good. Right now it is just trying to get situated more quickly when coming back to it. I am pretty pleased with things honestly. Really love these browns. I had blues on my UHK, and I love the same feel without the clack at the end. Maybe I've out grown blues?

260622-0

Offline nevin

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Re: Programmer deepening the ergo journey
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 27 January 2021, 14:33:53 »
glad you found something you like and it's working well for you.
Keeb.io Viterbi, Apple m0110, Apple m0120, Apple m0110a, Apple 658-4081, Apple M1242, Apple AEK II, MK96, GH60/Pure, Cherry g84-4100, Adesso AKP-220B, Magicforce 68

Offline Sniping

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Re: Programmer deepening the ergo journey
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 27 January 2021, 21:43:18 »
there's been several attempts to make a good ergonomic keyboard in the past decade or so but i actually think that they all still fall short of what the kinesis advantage accomplished. all the designs of current ergo keyboards have similar design ideas but still haven't used curved pcb's just because it's difficult to produce, but the kinesis advantage has been doing it for decades now. a that you face with recent split keyboards is that you can't rest the two halves on your lap easily and sit back to type. to me being able to just lean back and let your chair support you instead of being hunched over is one of the most important ways to keep your posture intact while being at the desk. it's not the sexiest solution and there's plenty of times where i just switch back to a normal keyboard just for the hell of it, but i can't argue with the fact that the kinesis is one of the best designs that's readily available out there. just my two cents. i have an ergodox that's gathered dust for the last half decade but haven't given the moonlander a shot yet. i don't think about the whole keyboard ergonomics thing too hard since i don't have any outstanding issues with my wrists or similar since i'm relatively young but i try to optimize for good posture and maintaining good blood circulation while i'm at the desk
the best keyboard is the one in front of you

Offline vvp

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Re: Programmer deepening the ergo journey
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 28 January 2021, 03:52:27 »
there's been several attempts to make a good ergonomic keyboard in the past decade or so but i actually think that they all still fall short of what the kinesis advantage accomplished.
Although that is somewhat(*) true for commercial keyboards. There are many open projects of contoured DIY keyboards which are arguably better. Not sure why you care about flexible PCBs other than the final price. Flexible PCBs make it harder to replace a malfunctioning switch.

(*) There is also Maltron.

Offline 2disbetter

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Re: Programmer deepening the ergo journey
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 28 January 2021, 14:20:12 »
I think the world of people looking to their keyboards to improve comfort, etc. is going to vary vastly with regard to their view on the success of various products. Me, for example, could never get with the Kinesis, just because of how huge the thing is. I mean it takes up twice the space of a normal keyboard. But that is me. I'm crazy. I think now that I'm getting along with the moonlander, that something like the Planck EZ but split would make the ultimate space saving keyboard. On there hitting key combos would be a piece of cake.

Still the UHK and Moonlander all provide more than enough for me to be happy for a while. I mean I think both of those keyboards are built to last a lifetime. Today is day 4 and I feel like I'm completely in sync wit the board.   

If you are someone who is looking for a good ergo ortho linear split tenting keyboard, I can highly recommend the Moonlander.
« Last Edit: Thu, 28 January 2021, 14:27:20 by 2disbetter »