Something to replace my faulty Logitech Illuminated?

[RamGuy]

So my Logitech Illuminated just died on me!
It's been one of several Logitech keyboards I've had issues with the past years..

First of I had a Logitech G15 rev1 which was okay I guess, didn't really like the feel of the keys that much but it was doing okay until multiply keys stopped working after a while.

It got replaced with the newer G15 rev2 which was a shame really, as things just seem to have gotten worse with the rev2 unit compared to the rev1, less programmable G-keys, worse feedback on the keys and it actually didn't managed to write my first name while holding both shift-keys down? And they market these things as "gaming keyboards?".. I might actually need to spam multiply keys at the same time while gaming, so not being able to write my first name while holding both shift-keys at the same time didn't impress me at all.



After bashing about this issue for quite some time my retailer decieded to give me a Logitech G19 to play with for a small additional fee and the G19 felt much like the original G15 rev1, nothing near optimal feedback but it was okay, a few more programmable G-keys to play around with and it manages to write my first name while holding both shift-keys! HURRAY! But there where some major downers with this one as well.. We have this huge completely useless LCD-screen which I never used and they keyboard actually require it's own AC power source?




After a while I decided to skip the whole Logitech G-series of keyboards, while I really love their G-series mice, just gone from G500 into G700 and loving it! I've never bought their G-series keyboard idea? They kinda look like mechanical keyboards, they almost sound like ones but they certainly not feel, perform or behave like one? I feel like I'm getting this cheapo "wannabe mechanical" keyboard flavored with some gimmick additions like LCD-screen and programmable G-keys (even though the G-keys actually may come handy in some games).


So I picked up a Logitech Illuminated, which I've liked quite a lot!
It's low-profile keys and feedback feels excellent to be honest, at least much better than what their G-series keyboards have to offer! And I didn't really miss that useless LCD-screen nor the programmable G-keys.

Only issue I had with the Illuminated keyboard was the slightly "plastic fantastic" feeling of it. Even though the feedback and everything feels great, you can't really get rid of that feeling telling you this keyboard wont last because of this supposedly cheap fabric?


And what do you know? A few months later my W and S key is half dead and only register like 1 / 5 of the times I click them!






So now I'm in the market for something brand new! And this forums seems to exist of some fairly smart keyboards enthusiasts, so what would be better than asking for recommendations on this forum?


I'm open for about anything! The price doesn't really matter too much, I often tend to pay a premium for something that I can enjoy.. But it shouldn't be something like 200$+, I still hope the Logitech G19 to be my most expensive keyboard ever (199$) but if  you have something awesome to recommend than do it! No matter the price and I'll take it to consideration.



It's VERY important that I UNDERLINE the fact that 95% of the time I'm on my desktop computer I'm gaming! Mostly StarcraftII and World of Warcraft these days, but it happens to be some Bad Company 2 and other stuff as well. Typing / writing (like now) and other stuff I mostly tend to do on my MacBook Pro 17" (2010 / Core i7-model).


Therefore I'm not quite sure what type of keyboards I should be looking at? For me it seems like Cherry MX RED (or even brown?) might be the best pick of mechanical for gaming? I don't really miss-click that often (at least I've convinced myself so).. Many people also seems to recommend Cherry MX Black, but after trying out the SteelSeries 7G the other day I can't honestly say I liked it too much.


Also the Cherry MX Blue seems very popular? But people seems to think it's inferior when it comes to gaming and superior for writing?



The specific models I've been looking at this far is:

- FILCO Majestouch Tactile Touch "Otaku" NKRO (don't know if I like the blank keys though, as I need some time to get used to the US / International layout, as I'm used to regular Scandinavian / Nordic).

- FILCO Majestouch Tactile Touch NKRO

- FILCO Majestouch Tactile Click "Otaku" NKRO

- FILCO Majestouch Tactile Click NKRO

- FILCO Majestouch Linear Force NKRO

- Deck Legend Tactile (Because of it's backlight)

- Deck Legend Linear (Same as above)

- SteelSeries 7G (Guess I might get used to the keys after a while, and pros for being available in Norway with Scandinavian / Nordic layout!)


So what do you guys think?

[Ekaros]

Would suggest 6Gv2 as "cheap" other than that likely a Filco... OFC, for these guys there is always old IBM Ms/Unicomp Customizer...

[washuai]

You said you didn't like the 7G (cherry blacks).  Given that your primary games are WOW and Starcraft, you'd probably do fine with blue cherry switch, if you want clicky.  

If you're stuck on backlight, but don't like the cherry blacks or clears, there are some newcomer mechanicals:  the iOne Xarmor U9BL or the new Razer BlackWidow Ultimate.  iOne definitely has cherry blues and the Razer switch hasn't been confirmed yet.  The Razer isn't confirmed to be NKRO, either.  Still Deck does it better (even if their font isn't).

If you get a full sized Filco at http://www.keyboardco.com/ they have some European layouts.  They have a Swedish/Finish keyboard, among others.  Blues or browns and NKRO.

[thisispatrick]

When I was shopping for my first mechanical keyboard, I got a lot of suggestions for brown switches mainly because I listed that I intend to do a lot of gaming as well as typing. Then in the end I bought a Das and have been happy with it ever since.

[RamGuy]

Well, I don't care about "noisy / "clickyness" that much really.
What I do care about is actual performance (if we may call it that in this regard)

It seems like most mechanical keyboards doesn't barley feature anything other than a plain, straightforward keyboard, you barley see any extra functional keys (I never use them anyway, so I don't really care) nor do you see any programmable keys? (I guess I could use one row of those, you never know when a macro might come in handy when you are gaming, especially in games like StarcraftII and World of Warcraft)



What concerns me about mechanical keyboards are that the different switches are quite different, I almost feel like there is a bigger difference from one mechanical switch to another than it is from Logitech G-series keyboard to Logitech Illuminated.

Just to complicate things further most mechanical keyboards looks almost identical (some actually downright old / boring) so you can't really draw any conclusion based on anything really.



The obvious fact that I got little to none experience with mechanical keyboards to begin with doesn't favour me when I'm trying to chose between the different offerings and the different types of switches.

All I've testet this far is the SteelSeries 7G for a full day (which uses Cherry MX Black?) and I didn't like it that much, I guess it worked okay when spamming buttons in World of Warcraft but even the shortest message in the chat felt like a pain to write simply because I felt the keys were too stiff! But HEY! I'll bet you don't get used to your first mechanical keyboard within the first day of use? I was lucky enough to get around and testing the SS 7G for one day, but considering it was my first shot at a mechanical keyboard and I was still using the clicklet keyboard on my MacBook Pro 17" in between I guess things just have to feel a bit wired? There was really no doubt that I pushed the keys too far down as well, as I'm used to really having to mash the button on a keyboard I started doing the same on the 7G even though I figured it registered all my stroke by just pushing the key half-way down.

You know old habits tends to get back at you, and I'll bet me sitting their pushing the keys ALL THE WAY DOWN didn't really help on the typing and overall experience? I just fel like the 7G drawn my energy after a while, I actually got tired of using it.



So that's my experience with mechanical keyboards this far, and the conclusion have to be I didn't like it that much, but I didn't really get the time to get used to it either, and probably I did use it all wrong in the first place making my experience somewhat useless and mislead?



But nevertheless it did get me a bit skeptical to the Cherry MX Black switch! They are one of the stiffest mechanical switches aren't they? I don't really see the need for that, I don't tend to miss-click or miss-type that often so unless a key gets registered just by me resting my hands over the space, W-S-D keys or anything I should be okay with something far less stiff than the Cherry MX Black, at least that's how I feel after my round with the SS 7G.

I do see the "gaming benefit" from the Cherry MX Black in regards of you barely being able to miss-click anything as you really have to push down the key before it register anything, but for me it seems like a no brainer and just something I don't really need, I think I'll be better of with something feeling "more natural and smooth to push down" instead of the Cherry MX Black which I almost felt like was working against me at times?



But the fact that I didn't really like the Cherry MX Black doesn't really help me when it comes to pick out whichever mechanical switch that would suit my desktop computer gaming the most..


I know that the Cherry MX Red is almost identical to the MX Black just not as stiff? That sounds awesome, but hey there is barley any keyboards around using the MX Red? And those two Cherry branded keyboards I found (only one available for purchase) didn't really look that good if you ask me? Where as I feel the Filco and Realforce keyboards looks like something of superior build quality (even though they also, like most mechanical keyboards seems a bit "boring") the Cherry keyboards with MX Red switches simply looked poor in comparison, not something I would put too much money on really.


It's a shame really how there seems to be so few keyboards spotting MX Red when they seem like the perfect switch for gamers that don't have this habit of miss-clicking?



The Cherry MX Blue doesn't really seem like something I be wanting for a gaming keyboard at all? Reports of problems with fast "double clicking" really turns me off.. When I think of it I tend to go button mashing in almost every game I play, so a keyboard struggling with rapidly and fast clicking on simultaneous keys just wont seem to work for gaming at all? Might be great for fast typing, but not so much for gaming?

We also have the MX Clear / Blank which people seems to think of like a cheapo version of MX Blue?



Then we have the Cherry MX Brown which seems like a somewhat balance in-between the MX Black and the MX Blue? Keeps struggling with the fast and rapidly button smashing, but not as much as the MX Blues? And they aren't even close too being as stiff as the MX Black?

Doesn't really sound optimal if you ask me, but might be the way to go considering the total lack of available Cherry MX Red keyboards?




But we also have the Topre switch? Which isn't that widely used? But there is some decent looking Realforce keyboards out there spotting these switches? They seems to be the premium of mechanic keyboard switches? And the prices underlines that for sure!

Unfortunately I couldn't dig up much information in regards of how well these would be for gaming? It seems like they have a stiff price, but most of the users that have paid for them seems to like them quite a lot? Actually most people seems to think of them superior to the Cherry MX switches? Of course they should be considering the price, but are they superior in regards of gaming as well? Or do they fall into the category of MX Blue? Awesome for typing and general use, not so much for gaming?


I might actually consider paying a premium for a Realforce full-sized keyboard if the Torpe is superior to MX Brown / Black for gaming.. How is the Realforce keyboards compared to Flico ones in the first place? (Then I think of build quality and stuff like that, not the keys / switches).


How do you find the build quality and feel of the Filco and Realforce keyboards compared to the SteelSeries 6G / 7G? Will they feel on pair, superior or infiror to the 7G I've tested for one day?

[cnt]

When I've decided to buy a mechanical keyboard over a year ago I was having the same "If the Realforce is that good, shouldn't I simply buy it?" thoughts, but the price jump from the 130$ region to the 300$ one seemed as quite an extreme one to be justified without prior experience with mechanical keyboards. I ended up buying a Filco FKBN104M/EB (MX Brown, NKRO), and I can wholeheartedly say it's the smartest computer related purchase I've ever done.

I use my keyboard for typing (as in, actual words rather than coding) and gaming, and the brown has excelled in both on a daily basis ever since I bought it.

Typing wise, the light tactile switches, once gotten used to, almost completely eliminated any typos I used to have when typing at a rapid pace, and more importantly, also got rid of the finger fatigue I used to get after typing for a few hours at a high pace.

But you said you're gaming 95% of the time, so let's refer to that.

A common conception is that the blacks (and reds) are the superior MX switch for gaming. Personally, I disagree. While this can be blamed on the fact that I own a brown and merely tried out blacks on several occasions (the steelseries keyboard), I found the browns to be vastly superior in any kind of game which requires the usage of multiple keys.

Blacks felt better in FPS where you almost only use a limited number of keys and either struck them once rapidly or held them pressed down for long durations, but the brown really shined in the games where your finger had to "flow" over the keyboard to execute various keystrokes.

Assigning groups or pressing hot keys in Starcraft 1 was a lot easier with the brown because it simply required less force from my fingers and provided a tactile feedback which allowed me, once gotten used to, to mentally move on to the next task at hand while fully knowing that the action has indeed been executed. It sounds silly to someone who doesn't game, but the difference between *knowing* that the m&m squad you've sent to harass that expansion is indeed bound to Ctrl+4 and *thinking* it is become substantial at rapid paced matches.

Tanking on a warrior, healing on a Holy Priest or doing 3s on a Frost Mage were also much better on the browns, because the amount of various keybindings and the need for mentally registering their execution simply catered to the brown switch's strengths. You shouldn't worry too much about "rapid pressing of the same keys", browns do well enough in such circumstances and once you get used to their light feel you won't be bottoming out as you spam that Revenge bind or frantically spam your Fireball one to maximize your up-time on the encounter.

Admittedly, I haven't tried the reds, but the tactile feedback is definitely a plus for me in RTS and MMO.

The 7G felt more or less the same as my Filco. Also regarding the product quality, people voiced some concerns regarding the letters wearing off of keys and such. I've been using my keyboard for 13 months now, at least 6 hours a day, and it still looks the same as it did when I bought it, there's no "wear down shine" and all the letters are as visible as they were on purchase (not that I spend time looking at them).

TL;DR - Filco FKBN104M/EB is above and beyond what I expected from a keyboard. I haven't tried the Topre so those might be even better, but I find it hard to imagine how much better a keyboard can get for the usages you've specified. If RTS and MMO is what you do, the browns perform superbly well.

[washuai]

Ok, it sounds like blacks are too much force, too stiff for you.  So don't get the Steelseries, linear Filco, etc.

Clears are lighter than blacks, but not by much.  Clears are not a cheap version of anything.  They're a tactile, nonclicky switch with a higher actuation force than browns/blues.  They're still likely to fatigue you, even with the tactility to tell you to stop pushing down.

Ok, so you do want to hover (spam the same key), so that rules out blues . . though it isn't that much slower.  Seriously, the whole blues thing is taken a little out of proportion.

Blacks, clears and blues are what is currently in the flashier gaming keyboards (Deck, iOne, Razer).

Reds are definitely too hard to come by.  I get what you're saying about how cherries look, but really, they feel great.  No, they definitely aren't as well built as Filco or Topre.

This makes a keyboard with cherry browns - like the Filco, still the most obvious recommendation.  You can button mash cherry browns without issue.  Odds are when you're button mashing, you're going to bottom out, anyways.

The topre isn't necessarily the best switch, but the build quality of the Realforce board is close to peerless.

Which switch is best for gaming, depends on the gamer and games being played.

Something more subtle, like cherry browns, or Topres - I'd say you're not necessarily going to know your first day in, give it near a month.  I knew my first day in - browns rock.  Something like cherry blacks or certain apple keyboards - yes, you can know the first day that they just aren't for you.  True, you could build up more muscle, et cetera and in a month be chilling on your cherry blacks.  It is kind of like starting an exercise routine and being unhappy that it left you feeling tired, because you haven't built up more stamina.  You can build up to not have an issue with the cherry blacks, but this is keyboarding and you are increasing risk of injury, so the safe recommendation is to go for the lower force board.

CNT - good points.

[Zensuji]

Having tried all 3 switches browns are my choice for both gaming and typing. They basically feel light and linear to me while gaming (FPS only) but while typing I'm aware of the tactile groove. Perfect IMO.

[JBert]

It got replaced with the newer G15 rev2 which was a shame really, as things just seem to have gotten worse with the rev2 unit compared to the rev1, less programmable G-keys, worse feedback on the keys and it actually didn't managed to write my first name while holding both shift-keys down? And they market these things as "gaming keyboards?".. I might actually need to spam multiply keys at the same time while gaming, so not being able to write my first name while holding both shift-keys at the same time didn't impress me at all.

What are you, some kind of masochist? You'll wear out your pinkies if you keep on doing that.

What counts when testing xKRO is that you can press any combination of different keys and still have them register. Pressing both shifts obviously doesn't count as they are pointless to press them together nor would be the maximum - you would never do that whilst typing.