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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #50 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 19:41:16 »
Quote from: wellington1869;222188
I thought i've already waxed poetic on that question, but its easy to answer: what should be done about violent christians? Your answer there is your answer here.


Thirty year presence of the British army with all sorts of nasty things being done on all sides? Sounds like what they're trying in Afghanistan...

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« Reply #51 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 19:41:35 »
Quote from: Zalusithix;222187
Lumping the Mosque with the others is a bit odd. I mean, it *is* hurting the image of Islam for the majority of in the country. However, that's mostly a byproduct of the hatred of said people against Islam. The Mosque itself has done nothing wrong, and if anything should be a symbol of the non-radical Muslims (the type we *want*).


But the fact that they insist on constructing a $100 million Islamic center two blocks away from Ground Zero, even though the New York government offered them many different plots, is a slap in the face to the victims of 9/11 and their families. It definitely hurts the image of Islam.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #52 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 19:43:58 »
Quote from: Zalusithix;222187
Lumping the Mosque with the others is a bit odd. I mean, it *is* hurting the image of Islam for the majority of in the country. However, that's mostly a byproduct of the hatred of said people against Islam. The Mosque itself has done nothing wrong, and if anything should be a symbol of the non-radical Muslims (the type we *want*).


The problem is that the Mosque is backed by the sort of Muslims that are not necessarily wanted...

Offline J888www

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« Reply #53 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 19:54:14 »
Congrats MW, this Post really does get the blood boil. I'm off to let my pacemaker a little rest.
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Offline Zalusithix

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« Reply #54 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 20:03:24 »
Quote from: wellington1869;222188
I thought i've already waxed poetic on that question, but its easy to answer: what should be done about violent christians? Your answer there is your answer here.

There is no answer. At least no truly correct single answer. Meeting violence with violence will only incite further violence. Especially with the whole martyr thing going on. Ignoring them is equally dangerous, as they'll just continue to do whatever they wish. Trying to educate them sounds nice, but doesn't work as well as we'd like.

The answer probably lies in a combination of all the above. Finding the right ratio though isn't exactly an easy thing. Even with the perfect approach, it'll be a long, long process.

Quote from: microsoft windows;222192
But the fact that they insist on constructing a $100 million Islamic center two blocks away from Ground Zero, even though the New York government offered them many different plots, is a slap in the face to the victims of 9/11 and their families. It definitely hurts the image of Islam.

It's considered a slap in the face because people see it as representing those that caused the problem. This only happens if we treat Islam as a monolithic non-fragmented religion. Which is silly, because every religion is fragmented. Islam, unfortunately, just happens to have a relatively large fragment of less than desirable people in it right now.

Still, unlike the other examples which have real examples of negative things associated with them, the mosque is guilty of being evil before it's even constructed. Based simply on what religion it belongs to. That is just wrong. We either have religious equality and tolerance in this nation, or we should just shelve every religion.

But yes, the whole ordeal, fair or not, is most definitely hurting the image of Islam. Heck, I know a number of Muslims who are against it's construction simply because they fear the backlash that it's creating. Basically it boils down to principles vs practicality. The practical move (path of least resistance) would be to cave to the fear mongering and relocate, but this would be an obvious blow to the principles of equality.

Quote from: ch_123;222193
The problem is that the Mosque is backed by the sort of Muslims that are not necessarily wanted...
If we're talking financial backing, I'll leave the government to supervise the flow of funds. That's their job - not deciding whether or not a building can go up via public preference alone.
« Last Edit: Sat, 11 September 2010, 20:08:14 by Zalusithix »

Offline Oqsy

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« Reply #55 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 20:18:41 »
There are very few of you I have any respect for any more...  I hope most of you are just too young to understand what you're saying, although I know some of you are definitely old enough to know better.  I honestly couldn't give a crap about MSW or his intentions for starting this thread, but now that it's here, please be mindful of the weight of the events of 9/11/2001, and keep your twisted personal politics to yourself until you get into another thread.
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Offline Zalusithix

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« Reply #56 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 20:46:24 »
Quote from: Oqsy;222211
There are very few of you I have any respect for any more...  I hope most of you are just too young to understand what you're saying, although I know some of you are definitely old enough to know better.  I honestly couldn't give a crap about MSW or his intentions for starting this thread, but now that it's here, please be mindful of the weight of the events of 9/11/2001, and keep your twisted personal politics to yourself until you get into another thread.


The thread took its turn barely a few posts in on the first page. It's far too late to try and steer it back to whatever it was originally an attempt at. Not that you could ever keep a thread like this from heading off in the direction it did. That would be a feat akin to having a thread asking for a moment of silence for those lost to the Hiroshima bombing to not veer off into discussion about all sorts of politically and militarily related stuff. 'Tis the nature of forums, and virtually pointless to try and counter. You'll only get those memorial moments at dedicated services held in the real world that aren't primarily serving as discussion hubs.

That and I don't think anybody is making light of the events of 9/11. Most are just putting it into perspective. There's horrible crap happening over all over the world. Yet the world still turns. Americans are lucky that this is the only major non-weather-related tragedy in recent history that we have to focus on, but at the same time it seems that our ability to move on is less than stellar because of it.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #57 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 21:40:47 »
Quote from: J888www;222201
Congrats MW, this Post really does get the blood boil. I'm off to let my pacemaker a little rest.


mw didnt do anything wrong by noting an anniversary of such importance, or noting what a sober anniversary it is.  Its the ignorant children who've come to play on this thread (and wantonly blame the victims) who get the blood boiling.  Its no different than when neo-nazis stand outside auschwitz to mock visiting jews.

unfortunately there will always be such ignoramuses in our society. I'm only sad that half of them consider themselves to be  'leftists'.  [correction, nearly all of them consider themselves to be leftists. Most known conservatives here have rightly defended the victims.] Shame on us leftists, for having neither the sense of history, nor any consistency in our supposed values, nor any respect for the dead. It appears we're no better than neo nazis on a date like this.

Like them, all we can do is mock the victims, join forces with fascists, and imagine a single point of origin for evil in the world and scapegoat it.
« Last Edit: Sat, 11 September 2010, 21:44:56 by wellington1869 »

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #58 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 21:50:41 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;222024

Please take a moment of silence to remember.


I took a moment today. These victims were bystanders who fell in the opening shots of a global hate-war against all civilized and decent values. They were witnesses to a monumental moment in human history and for that they will live forever. Gods bless 'em; we remember 'em.

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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #59 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 22:37:16 »
Quote from: wellington1869;222242
I took a moment today. These victims were bystanders who fell in the opening shots of a global hate-war against all civilized and decent values. They were witnesses to a monumental moment in human history and for that they will live forever. Gods bless 'em; we remember 'em.


Agreed with this. I think some of the disrespect in this thread is pretty shameful. And it's disrespectful to comment in a thread about a certain atrocity things along the lines of "What about MY atrocities!". It's like...get over yourself. Wow, sorry our body count isn't as high as yours. We'll stop grieving right away and start weeping for you instead.

Offline Ekaros

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« Reply #60 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 03:59:40 »
Quote from: ch_123;222182
Welly, I'm genuinely curious - if Islam is really such a huge problem, what should be done about it?


Same as any other religion, they should be but to stop. Or then give them a couple hundred years... Still blaming whole set of islamist because of small part of them, is pretty much saying that all christians are stupid because some belive in creationism or there are a few extreme sect...

Most of us likely don't disrespect those who died 9 years ago, but we see it as past and it is a time to move on... Now, most of us are willing to discuss this happening in larger perspective, it was an event which changed world to worse...
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Offline JBert

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« Reply #61 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 04:14:49 »
Quote from: wellington1869;222188
I thought i've already waxed poetic on that question, but its easy to answer: what should be done about violent christians? Your answer there is your answer here.
Obviously, the only answer is to pity or ridicule their leaders, then get those followers to look at it the same way.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #62 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 04:23:53 »
Quote from: wellington1869;222239
Its the ignorant children who've come to play on this thread (and wantonly blame the victims) who get the blood boiling.


Still interested to see where this happened. Take your time.

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #63 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 07:13:18 »
Quote from: ch_123;222325
Still interested to see where this happened. Take your time.


Stop instigating. No class whatsoever...

EDIT: Just saw your profile and saw that you're 21...that explains the leftover teenage angst mixed with immaturity present in most of your posts :D
« Last Edit: Sun, 12 September 2010, 07:17:49 by keyboardlover »

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #64 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 07:30:02 »
Thanks for the psychoanalysis Mommy.

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #65 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 07:33:43 »
Quote from: ch_123;222342
Thanks for the psychoanalysis Mommy.


LOL you continue to prove my point. See, your posts' immaturity speak for themselves (and speak loads about you).

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #66 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 07:36:38 »
EDIT: Just was asking a simple question. Not sure what you thought I was 'instigating' or whatever.
« Last Edit: Sun, 12 September 2010, 09:33:31 by ch_123 »

Offline Findecanor

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« Reply #67 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 08:30:45 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;222120
The lack of respect here for 9/11 from some members is just apalling.
I just want to say that I mean no disrespect. I just wanted to put things into perspective and to warn people about getting carried away in an insanity like the one that that was spurred by the 9/11 events.

I was just as horrified by what happened that day as anyone else. I don't need to see it again, it is forever burned into my retina. I had spent the whole afternoon and evening in front of the television from 9.01 am NYC time forwards, swapping between CNN and BBC. I don't need threads like this to remember it by, I will always remember the horror, confusion. the feeling of helplessness and the premonition that horrible things were going to come out of it.
I did show my respect to the victims by attending a public rememberance ceremony that was held over here back in 2001.
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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #68 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 09:24:49 »
Quote from: Zalusithix;222135
Remembering won't bring back the dead. Remembering won't change the past. Remembering won't stop it from happening again. Last of all, dedicating a day of remembrance isn't respecting those who lost their lives - it's making idols out them.

Ideally, you learn what you need to from an event, and then take those lessons and apply them to the future to keep something like that from happening again. Those who lost people close to them can grieve at any time. The vast majority of the nation who weren't personally affected at all are better off focusing their energy in productive, and positive ways.

But instead we get the event glorified. We prop the dead onto pedestals, regardless of their will and use them as undead martyrs of sorts to push religious and political ideology. We hate those who committed the act, and by typical human nature extend that hate irrationally to broader groups of people that had nothing to do with the event.
I can't say that what you are saying here is factually incorrect. But I disagree with it nonetheless.

In Canada, each year, on November 11, we dedicate a day to remember our fallen soldiers. Some have argued that this should be a day to remember the wastefulness of war, a day to remember the importance of peace.

But I, for one, was perfectly happy with that day the way it used to be.

Not as a day to stir up hatred for Germans. But as a day to remember the sacrifice of those who died to defend the freedom of countries like France and Belgium and South Korea. A day to be reminded that "freedom isn't free".

Because if we decide that fighting in wars is just too much bother, we won't survive very long as a free nation.

Yes, you are quite right that apparently apolitical public, organized mourning for those who perished on September 11, 2001 is likely to serve a "political agenda". The agenda of muting criticism and controversy over the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The agenda of instead uniting the nation behind whatever it may be called upon to do to prevent future acts of terrorism, to bring those responsible for past acts of terrorism to justice, to root out whatever it is that is the source of terrorism.

So that, when we're done, not only Americans and Britons and Spaniards will feel safe and secure, with the threat of a terrorist attack once again something impossibly remote, but the people of Israel, and even the people of the southern Sudan, the people of Somalia, the people of Nigeria will fully share in this good fortune.

On December 7, 1941, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. The nation remembered those who fell there, and it continued its efforts until Imperial Japan was completely defeated, and all those it had subjugated were freed.

This was as it should be.

Similarly, the nation should remember those who fell on September 11, 2001, and continue its efforts until the forces of terrorism are completely defeated, no longer a problem for anyone.

I don't see how that's a problem, or even a choice. As it always was, so shall it ever be: for a nation to survive in peace, it must commit itself to utterly crush those who would dare to attack its peaceful citizens. If, instead, a nation's citizens can be attacked with impunity, collapse is imminent.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #69 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 10:19:18 »
Quote from: JBert;222323
Obviously, the only answer is to pity or ridicule their leaders, then get those followers to look at it the same way.


thats definitely one part of the answer I think, and its definitely what we would do if this were a christian murderous sect doing this to 'take over the world'.  However, when a liberal-muslim joins us in ridiculing their leaders, our own leftists then attack those muslims mercilessly as 'traitors' and 'collaborators with the west'.  Just look at how so many liberal folks on this forum see this as a religious war -- but to support that thesis, they have to pretend that 'all muslims are the same' (which is, btw, horrifyingly simplistic and probably racist). So when a liberal-muslim attacks islamist leadership, that goes directly against their thesis. They cant imagine any scenario in which westerners and muslims could join together in this fight. That would explode their idea of a binary 'religious war'. And so they reject such cooperation and attack us as 'imperialists' and them as 'traitors'. Its the only (tired old) language they know. And its exactly what the religious fascists would want to see.

Our leftists are so deeply complicit in religious terrorism that its no longer funny any more.

At that point, I think our job as leftists becomes to pity and ridicule these leftists and get other leftists to see them the same way.

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #70 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 10:23:30 »
Quote from: JBert;222323
Obviously, the only answer is to pity or ridicule their leaders, then get those followers to look at it the same way.


this is also definitely the only long-term solution that will work -- a long term culture war that will encourage dissenting muslims to speak up, provide much-needed encouragement and even protection for them so that they can speak freely and engage their own right-wing freely.

In the short term, use of force obviously is necessary. I do worry that our strategy so far has (will) successfully take care of the short term, but we're not paying enough attention to the longer term culture war which is necessary to generate change in the muslim world against well-entrenched fascistic governments and well-entrenched religious leadership.

What we see from the far left today is every attempt to make such a necessary culture war 'impossible'.  THey actually want these religious fascistic regimes to succeed, just because it will hurt 'the west' (as if the west is a homogenous monolith, too -- a kind of perverse reverse-racism).

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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #71 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 10:28:46 »
I think it's amazing how many similarities exist between the far-left and far-right. Even if you look at Hitler's propaganda, it was designed to appeal to supporters of socialism (claiming it was the "true" socialist movement) just as much as to supporters of fascism. Nowadays I tend to think that the far-left, far-right, fascism and communism...are all so similar they're nearly one and the same.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #72 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 10:29:15 »
well said, quadibloc

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #73 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 10:30:41 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;222385
I think it's amazing how many similarities exist between the far-left and far-right. Even if you look at Hitler's propaganda, it was designed to appeal to supporters of socialism (claiming it was the "true" socialist movement) just as much as to supporters of fascism. Nowadays I tend to think that the far-left, far-right, fascism and communism...are all so similar they're nearly one and the same.


ya for myself i'm totally convinced that the political spectrum is a 'circle', not a 'line'.  A circle where far-left and far-right meet, and are identical, are identically violent and hypocritical, and collaborate with each other to squeeze out everyone else.

Travel far enough in either direction and you'll meet yourself.
« Last Edit: Sun, 12 September 2010, 10:38:13 by wellington1869 »

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Offline ricercar

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« Reply #74 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 13:09:37 »
Should citizens of the United States treat September 11 differently than December 7?
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« Reply #75 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 13:38:42 »
Since it is now September 12, I'll close the thread. But don't worry...I'll make you all an Islam thread where we can dish the dirt.
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