Author Topic: Help me GH! have blacks but not sure now...  (Read 5801 times)

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Offline alg0801

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Help me GH! have blacks but not sure now...
« on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 20:06:41 »
I've been reading these forums for a couple months now and about a month ago i finally decided to take the plunge and grab my first mechanical keyboard :D

I use my computer for around 80% gaming so I naturally went with....

a Filco tenkeyless with cherry MX blacks.  I will say that this is 100x better than all of the cheap keyboards I have owned in the past, but I am having some concerns with it.

It feels WAY too stiff, especially when keys are hit from an angle (as opposed to directly down) and when I have to press/hold down keys with my left pinkey (i broke my pinky and it healed but doesn't exactly feel normal with the tension of the blacks lol)

So as far as I know...i have 2 options.  I can either purchase a Filco tenkeyless with browns for $121 OR i can purchase around 90 mx brown switches for $60 and risk destroying this new keyboard to swap the springs.

I think I would prefer to have the less tension of the browns but I am at a toss up as to how i feel about the tactile feel as I have never typed on one before.  I am definitely worried about opening up the keyboard to make ghetto reds but that feel might be favorable.

Please help Geek Hack! :D

Offline Oqsy

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« Reply #1 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 20:26:48 »
My suggestion would be to sell or trade the filco to a member here for one with browns.  There is probably someone out there feeling that the browns are not stiff enough that would gladly trade the entire board.  That way no one has to take anything apart, and you both end up with a filco with the switches you'd prefer ;)  

On the off chance that NO one out there has a brown Filco that they'd trade for a black, I'll gladly trade springs with you.  I prefer the black springs, and I have a couple of project boards that could use them.  I have over 100 brown springs, and I would send you all of them in trade for the springs from your blacks.
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Offline alg0801

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Help me GH! have blacks but not sure now...
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 20:51:22 »
Thanks ripster :D

I'd only be willing to take the springs out if there was no re-soldering involved (plate mounted switches require soldering if im not mistaken) and I dont know how the filco is put together.  Also I'm thinking that the slight tactile feel in browns might actually be a good thing?  The main thing that I dont like about blacks when gaming is that the tension increases the further the key is pressed down.  It just feels odd to have no tactile feel on the keystrokes that are not bottomed out.  It's even more noticable when you push the keys from angles other than directly down (happens at higher APM in starcraft 2).

I've looked for tutorials on how to actually open a switch and couldn't find any so if anyone knows a link off hand i'd like to read that and see if it's even something i'd be willing to do

Also, I some how feel this mechanical keyboard thing is going to break my wallet because It's bad that I'm even considering buying another one of these awesome keyboards when I'm just a college student on a limited budget :D

Offline alg0801

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« Reply #3 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 21:04:31 »
Yeah I don't think I'll be opening this keyboard in any way.  It feels like i'd need a jackhammer to mod it.

What i'm considering doing is buying the MX Brown board next month (stick of ram went out so I gotta get that as priority) and then I'll attempt to sell whichever one I don't like on here.

Whats your opinion/experiences on gaming with mx browns?

Offline erricrice

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« Reply #4 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 21:58:54 »
Gaming is just fine on browns, you just can't hammer the tactile point for repetitive inputs as well as blacks(still much better than rubber domes though).

I would highly recommend browns.  And don't bother with modding the filco, the switches are mounted to the metal plate that's in there and you can't open them without removing them from the metal plate, which I believe requires desoldering.  

Just leave it alone and trade.  Definitely your best option.
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Offline alg0801

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Help me GH! have blacks but not sure now...
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 23:28:52 »
wouldn't it be easier to rapidly spam inputs with browns since it takes much less force to do so?  Most of the time when gaming you bottom the keys out anyways, except that with the blacks certain keys are hard to bottom out due to being further away from wasd ( increasing tension).  On teamliquid.net, a highly reputable SC community, people actually recommended browns for RTS gaming, which requires quick repetitive actions

just trying to understand what you mean by hammer the tactile point for repetitive inputs so I can kinda get more of an idea what browns are like...I really appreciate all the help guys :D you made my decision 100x easier to make.

Browns actuate at the same point as their reset correct?

Offline lmnop

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« Reply #6 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 23:30:49 »
you are forgetting about the tactile point. who breaks a finger on a Cherry MX Switch?

Offline alg0801

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« Reply #7 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 23:37:52 »
Quote from: lmnop;222267
you are forgetting about the tactile point. who breaks a finger on a Cherry MX Switch?


LOL i broke my pinky on a wild drunken night where the only thing i can remember is that we were watching WWF style midget wrestling...woke up and couldnt move it.  I didnt get it reset or anything so It healed a little crooked and feels a little "weaker" than a normal finger if that makes any sense.

Offline kriminal

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« Reply #8 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 23:46:34 »
yep the filco is tough to open LOL.\
well the first time atleast
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Offline lmnop

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« Reply #9 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 23:49:04 »
steelseries sponsors a lot of pro gamers. most of them use a steelseries 7g. I have seen Raptor and Cherry too.

I don't know much about Starcraft except it's a RTS and religious icon in Asia. is there a lot of spamming?

Offline lmnop

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« Reply #10 on: Sat, 11 September 2010, 23:52:40 »
I made my point. stop being a jerk. we get it you don't like OCN you don't have to remind us every post you make.

Offline alg0801

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« Reply #11 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 00:19:15 »
Quote from: lmnop;222274
steelseries sponsors a lot of pro gamers. most of them use a steelseries 7g. I have seen Raptor and Cherry too.

I don't know much about Starcraft except it's a RTS and religious icon in Asia. is there a lot of spamming?


Yes there's tons of spam...on average top level players might make 300 Actions in 1 minute in starcraft 2.  That's 5 actions per second.   Of course it's not all done by keyboard but here's an example.  I bind all 10 barracks to #4 and I want to make marines out of all of them...I'd have to push:   4aaaaaaaaaa every 30 seconds as fast as possible so that I can continue to do other things at the same time.

Offline Arc'xer

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« Reply #12 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 00:34:47 »
Quote from: alg0801;222266
wouldn't it be easier to rapidly spam inputs with browns since it takes much less force to do so?


Yes and no, force wise yes but the browns have the tactile point rise and that rise in force no matter how temporarily is felt slows down the switch i.e. felt like friction or rising resistance.

Linear switches subtly rise in force not suddenly. But at the same time the 60g actuation force and 80g bottoming out is fairly resistive. Plus the spring on the mx black is not only short but thick unlike the brown switch being thin and long.

Notice the difference

One of the reasons people have been wanting MX reds despite how light they are.

Even I who used the mx blacks for a number of months found them unbearable after a while for FPS and whatnot, it's enjoyable and very quiet not much key chattering but fatiguing.

Quote from: alg0801;222266
Most of the time when gaming you bottom the keys out anyways, except that with the blacks certain keys are hard to bottom out due to being further away from wasd ( increasing tension).


For an FPS game yes but your playing an RTS and if your the type of person who is playing SC like they have with all the high APM and whatnot. Then you can develop muscle memory from not having to bottom out.

I'm not saying you won't bottom out or your not allowed to bottom out but if your the type of person who remains calm and is fairly actively using their keyboard then it doesn't hurt to at least try and develop some muscle memory.

The benefit of a lighter switch is less fatigue. Wonder how the topre fairs with the soft landing if people are mashing them down at such fairly hard key presses.

Although I'm not suggesting, considering it's out of most people's budget.

Quote from: alg0801;222266
just trying to understand what you mean by hammer the tactile point for repetitive inputs so I can kinda get more of an idea what browns are like...I really appreciate all the help guys :D you made my decision 100x easier to make.


He means that with the linear you can rest just before the actuation(remember all of cherry MX-type are 2.0MM actuation, not for all switches some have different points of actuation but for MX). And basically you can rest on them and spam away though it's hard to tell without the tactile bump.

It's hard to learn but some people have done it. But the benfits of it are merely situational. I've noticed when I was actively using the MX black in FPS that while I used them all the way down the smoothness and dead-center capability made strafing side to side fairly more responsive and without actually fully depressing the switch.

But I'd say the whole rest just before the actuation point is merely a situational syndrome were your kinda in a precarious position and are trying everything to survive.

Maybe it's just me but to me it was more of an reassurance that my keys responded quicker.

Quote from: alg0801;222266
Browns actuate at the same point as their reset correct?


A tiny hair off but unnoticeable, so yes.

As for the whole spamming thing if it goes any further. It's just warming up like cracking your knuckles before using a piano. It's only later on that the speed starts to make a difference.

Offline alg0801

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Help me GH! have blacks but not sure now...
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 00:38:45 »
There is no riding the activation point, which is why i'm confused by the hammering the tactile point statement.  I'm worried 100% about speed and accuracy when pushing keys (muscle memory) which is what throws me off with the the blacks sometimes.  Due to the increasing tension, sometimes when hitting keys very fast, you will actuate them but not bottom them out because it's so stiff feeling.  In the middle of a chain of commands it breaks your concentration and makes you think "did i hit the key or not?"

I'm pretty sure nearly every key pushed is bottomed out while playing starcraft.  Theres a video of a big recent tournament for SC2 in korea and one of the top players is actually using a filco with mx browns (you can see it clearly because his windows keys are off)

Also, I think steelseries markets more towards FPS gaming, which I still dont see the benefit of using blacks over browns for.

How does the tactile point effect speed since at its peak it's still lower than the actuation point on the blacks.  Also, I find blacks great up until the point in which they actuation.  After that the stiffness is noticeably more.  I wish I could try reds out :(

(i made this post before i saw the previous post, which was very informative)
« Last Edit: Sun, 12 September 2010, 00:44:37 by alg0801 »

Offline Arc'xer

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« Reply #14 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 01:48:08 »
Quote from: alg0801;222295
hammering the tactile point statement.  I'm worried 100% about speed and accuracy when pushing keys (muscle memory) which is what throws me off with the the blacks sometimes.  Due to the increasing tension, sometimes when hitting keys very fast, you will actuate them but not bottom them out because it's so stiff feeling.  In the middle of a chain of commands it breaks your concentration and makes you think "did i hit the key or not?"


Most likely ignoring the tactile bump. Many people coming from heavier switches or while gaming just punch through the tactile point. Probably meant that.

All MX are actuating at 2.0MM, total travel is 4.0MM. The mx black actuate at 2.0 but have no tactility because they are linear. Well linear-progressive, linear sorta straight no deviation with tactile bump and progressive as a subtle rise in pressure.

2.0mm = actuation aka half of what a membrane dome does because membrane is contact and require bottoming out.

Quote from: alg0801;222295
Also, I think steelseries markets more towards FPS gaming, which I still don't see the benefit of using blacks over browns for.


In a way your right albeit fatiguing. Basically for an FPS game holding down a switch half-way focusing on keeping your finger slightly down and trying to sense a tactile bump is just wasted mental cycles. Too much focus on that, it's not typing.

Linear has no sense of tactility except resistance which can be argued as a kind of tactility but not a nice one. So they are very smooth and quick. Some people describe them as almost pushing your finger back up.

Quote from: alg0801;222295
How does the tactile point effect speed since at its peak it's still lower than the actuation point on the blacks.  Also, I find blacks great up until the point in which they actuation.  After that the stiffness is noticeably more.  I wish I could try reds out :(


Tactile bumps i.e. sudden rise in pressure gives you a sense of catching yourself so you don't bottom out, feels almost like a false sense of bottoming out. Thus you don't waste energy inputting more energy into an already actuated switch.

Not sure what you mean. If your talking about the whole linear vs tactile for gaming that's merely because you ignore tactility during gaming slows you down punching through the tactile rise. If your talking about other switches your using a heavy-linear switch, different switches have different weights. So if your trying to compare the weight of your switch it's different but all MX share a same design 4.0 mm travel with 2.0 mm actuation just the weight is different.

Offline lmnop

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Help me GH! have blacks but not sure now...
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 02:05:26 »


little bastards.
« Last Edit: Sun, 12 September 2010, 02:10:36 by lmnop »

Offline alg0801

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Help me GH! have blacks but not sure now...
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 02:46:48 »
Quote from: ripster;222310
If you want to try Cherry Reds just use Cherry Browns.  In the heat of a game they are almost identical.

Reds have developed a mystique just because they are hard to find.


THANKS! this is almost exactly what I was wondering...but coulnd't figure out exactly how to ask it :D I think in a week or two I'll go ahead and grab me another filco, this time with browns....

And I'll either keep both of them because they are awesome or sell this mx black board...btw, what's the best way to go about reselling one of these keyboards, and how much return do you think I could get on one with 1 month use (basically still looks new, not even dusty yet)

Offline lmnop

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Help me GH! have blacks but not sure now...
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 02:52:55 »
$70-80? Das Model S sold for $76 today on eBay. put it on eBay it shouldn't last long.
« Last Edit: Sun, 12 September 2010, 04:02:12 by lmnop »

Offline Jalal

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Help me GH! have blacks but not sure now...
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 10:11:08 »
Quote from: ripster;222291
The Korean Starcraft players swear by some Samsung rubber dome keyboard for example.
Yeah, the Samsung Qsenn DT-35, but i guess you knew?

A review: http://www.duskbin.com/reviews/dt-35-demystified
He compares it to the Steelseries 7G. Additionally to this review i want to note, that i know of a korean progamer with 350 apm who uses the 7G. It simply depends on your strenght and fitness i guess.

@ OP
The browns feel most similar to rubber domes from the mech switches, so you won't miss anything taking them instead of the DT-35. Just saying in case you were considering it.

Quote from: ripster;222368
Filcos sell for more.

The leet factor.  Japanese trumps German even if they are made in the same Taiwanese factory.
I wonder why they have such a good image. It's fixed in our brains
« Last Edit: Fri, 17 September 2010, 15:19:24 by Jalal »

Offline washuai

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Help me GH! have blacks but not sure now...
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 16:32:33 »
Quote from: Jalal;222712


Quote from: ripster;222368
Filcos sell for more.

The leet factor.  Japanese trumps German even if they are made in the same Taiwanese factory.

I'll try and insult OCN less often.  This will take effort.

I wonder why they have such a good image. It's fixed in our brains


Do you mean why do Filco's have a better image or why do the Japanese have a better image?

If we're talking Filcos, then the simple answer is quality.  Sure we rag on their keycaps.  Otherwise, comparing them to Cherry, the difference in build quality is obvious.  The difference in design is obvious, too.  
Additionally, rip-o-meter wise, every key I tested on my Filco is 9 nickels (45g).  However, on both my G80-8200 and my Compaq MX11800 it takes 10 to 12 nickels with 11 nickels being the most common amount.  The compaq doesn't feel as good as my cherry or my Filco, but I bought it used so that has to be taken into account, even though it is Cherry OEM.
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Offline EvilSaint

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« Reply #20 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 20:15:32 »
Quote from: alg0801;222295
There is no riding the activation point, which is why i'm confused by the hammering the tactile point statement.  I'm worried 100% about speed and accuracy when pushing keys (muscle memory) which is what throws me off with the the blacks sometimes.  Due to the increasing tension, sometimes when hitting keys very fast, you will actuate them but not bottom them out because it's so stiff feeling.  In the middle of a chain of commands it breaks your concentration and makes you think "did i hit the key or not?"

I'm pretty sure nearly every key pushed is bottomed out while playing starcraft.  Theres a video of a big recent tournament for SC2 in korea and one of the top players is actually using a filco with mx browns (you can see it clearly because his windows keys are off)

Also, I think steelseries markets more towards FPS gaming, which I still dont see the benefit of using blacks over browns for.

How does the tactile point effect speed since at its peak it's still lower than the actuation point on the blacks.  Also, I find blacks great up until the point in which they actuation.  After that the stiffness is noticeably more.  I wish I could try reds out :(

(i made this post before i saw the previous post, which was very informative)


Like Rip is talking about for gaming, I'm pretty sure the whole "riding the switch" thing is utterly useless too. For any real, competitive gamer, you'll just be slamming the keys down anyway to make sure the presses register. For any game less casual than Peggle or PuzzleQuest, you need that precision anyway.

That being said, I just got a Filco with Browns today and it's a dream for my everyday typing/hotkeys *and* for gaming. SC2-wise, I've only done two ladder games and a bit of micro testing in the Unit Tester, but it's a very solid difference - there is ZERO question about whether you're hitting a key or not, even if you're just spamming "sd" at the start to make your first drone. Also, for the indirect-angle keypresses (I know exactly what you're talking about, heh), it takes a bit to get used to the height of the keys but the spacing is phenomenal, even for someone with big hands and fat fingers. Any control group creation or unit adding is a breeze. I'm only a rank 15 Plat Zerg btw, if that helps the comparison at all. My average APM is low, like, 50-60 low.

Washuai - Why do you guys rag on the Filco caps? They seeem amazing to me but then again, I'm a mech keyboard rookie.

Offline Arc'xer

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Help me GH! have blacks but not sure now...
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 20:50:26 »
Quote from: EvilSaint;222988
Washuai - Why do you guys rag on the Filco caps? They seeem amazing to me but then again, I'm a mech keyboard rookie.

While not bad they are quite thin almost paper thin. And they are printed but use a coating to protect from wear.

While keyboards like the one's built by cherry are not only double-shot molded but in some cases made of the much stronger, P.O.M. (Polyoxymethylene). Though I think cherry stopped the whole double-shot process or is in the process of stopping the use of those key caps.

And other examples like deck's, hybrid double-shot/dye sublimation process.

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=All+About+Keys and http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Key+Reference+-+Pics+and+specifications+for+various+manufacturers+keys
« Last Edit: Mon, 13 September 2010, 21:13:47 by Arc'xer »

Offline Nadger

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Help me GH! have blacks but not sure now...
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 00:16:48 »
Man if you didnt know anything about switches and read some of this stuff you would think its a racist forum.

stuff like "Man i dont like blacks, whites ftw.  Blacks are just too damn stiff and you dont get any feedback when you hit them.  Browns arrent bad, they are just a little too easy to hit sometimes"
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woody

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Help me GH! have blacks but not sure now...
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 09:47:38 »
Quote from: ripster;222947
... and German Cherry keyboards are made in Czechoslovakia ...

I have some minor *****ing to make about the G84-4100, probably manufactured in CZ. :smash:
It's not the country probably, but the managing decisions and QA, etc.
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« Last Edit: Sat, 05 February 2011, 13:37:11 by woody »