Which switch for massive typing with bad carpals?

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Basically, after an emotional reunion with the Model M on which I learnt to type (which I found in my step-father's kitchen on Saturday but which doesn't work), I don't think I ever want a non-mechanical keyboard any more. However, the only mechanical keyboard you could dream of coming across in a shop in Poland in Steelseries, so I can't just go and try hands on. I thought someone with actual experience of post-Model M mechanical keyboards (yes, I know it's not really mechanical ) could make my approximate decision easier by sharing some insights.

Here's a couple of concerns:

- on that Model M, I developed a style of typing in which just doesn't match rubber dones; I wouldn't release a key fully until already on the next after the next key, or something, or I would use the spring bounce as leverage; I still, after years, end up with wrong letter order or occasional corner hit on rubber domes sometimes (and I invariably blame the 'boards)--this makes me think perhaps a black Cherry or some other linear switch wouldn't be a bad idea, but then I'd miss the click;

- I had a year's episode with a very nice scissors piece: http://www.natec-europe.com/index.php?mod=products&id=7&pid=Z08436&lang=en; it had some good sides, which make me thing of brown Cherry; plus the silence--I didn't mind anything on the IBM but I hate the sound of a pansy plastic keyboard getting hammered;

- Typing at the above mentioned x-scissors at high wpm, however, felt like banging my fingertips on the very desk surface at 80 wpm (so much for the softness), which makes me long for the nice actuation feel of old... or a springy linear, but not a hybrid solution (blue - good tactile feedback, black - good hammering, brown - neither?);

- I hate wrist arching with a passion and I prefer to keep my finger joints as straight as possible (I've had to take paracetamol on some brutal jobs with the x-scissors); makes me think of either getting a blue switch for the nice behaviour under the finger or a reduced force linear switch with good reaction time, like some gaming keyboards, again not a hybrid that has no significant advantage either way;

- a Logitech EX110 I once had was definitely too hard on my fingers, therefore anything that's equally hard or harder is bad for me... brown Cherry is probably the lightest on the fingers;

- I work as a translator: speed is money when you get paid for pages or words but you need the long-term stamina to keep typing at a high speed for brutal hours, accuracy is as important, muscle memory is unreliable when you've been working too long.

As far as whole keyboards go:

- DAS seems to vary force depending on which finger hits what key, I think I'd like that, but I prefer PS/2 to USB and I fear the rumoured problems with precision;
- Unicomp keys reportedly don't feel the same and are somewhat harder on the fingers, which I'd rather avoid if true;
- Anyone had a TVS shipped out of India?
- Do I want to give the Razer Black Widow, i.e. blue Cherry with gaming tweaks, a try? (Sounds good to me but maybe I'm missing something);
- Bigger keys or spacing between keys could be good, can't have a compact keyboard, desk space is not a concern;
- I need cursors for non-gaming reasons, so HHKB is out;
- I prefer the normal US layout, no squeezing or relocating keys;
- I'd prefer something shippable from Europe; otherwise shipment could be like $50 and the thing would be taxed 22% on the airport.

Thanks in advance for any hints and sorry for the length of this.

[keyboardlover]

Based on your first concern, a blue cherry keyboard seems like a good match. I wouldn't get a brown cherry, topre, or a low force linear switch (like red cherry) if you don't like bottoming out when you type (feeling the key press down to the bottom). Black cherry could be a good choice but as you said, there's no audible 'click'.

- Anyone had a TVS shipped out of India?

I'm getting a few, but not until early early-mid January 2011. If you're interested PM me.

[Infinite north]

There are quite a few ergo choices that have mechanical switches.

Kinesis advantage keyboards have brown cherry switches, have extra foot switch controls and are programmable with a second layer.

This company is supposedly getting ready to start releasing board and they have several options on key switches and layout.
http://www.trulyergonomic.com/

[Rajagra]

Your comments on the DAS seem to be based on old models. New ones have all keys with same force, rumours are they now work properly, and they can be used with PS/2 or USB.

But (and I do hate jumping in with an expensive solution) I do think a Realforce (Topre) keyboard would deal with most of your concerns. If you can possibly get hold of one to try out it will be worth it. It also sounds like you would prefer one with fixed-weight keys rather than variable.

Some people say certain Key Tronic keyboards are 90% as good as Topre, and much cheaper. May be worth looking into.

That TruyErgonomic is looking interesting. Lots of fun layouts, and not one stupid L-shaped Enter anywhere!
I would be very tempted by the 109A layout for lots of AutoHotkey modifier goodness.

[d2v]

Where is webwit when we need him ? This is his area of speciality..

[DesktopJinx]

Maybe I missed something... why not just get a Model M?

[d2v]

Based on your first concern, a blue cherry keyboard seems like a good match. I wouldn't get a brown cherry, topre, or a low force linear switch (like red cherry) if you don't like bottoming out when you type (feeling the key press down to the bottom). Black cherry could be a good choice but as you said, there's no audible 'click'.



I'm getting a few, but not until early early-mid January 2011. If you're interested PM me.

TVS seems to have launched Cherry's keyboard line here in India. See this.

[didjamatic]

First, let me say I have RSI and it's a pain, literally.

Get a cherry brown and a cherry blue keyboard in standard US ANSI layout (Filco or Das are good options), decide which you prefer and sell the other.  If you're still hungry for more, then try a Topre in variable force.

For me, change helps RSI and my speed/accuracy.  When I stay on one board I get sloppy and RSI acts up, so I change it up by rotating what I use and that has helped me tremendously.

Side note: I seem to like vintage, used cherry blues better than new ones.  It could be they are broken in and a little lighter, or that they have heavier DS caps on them or a combination of the two.  Brown cherries are great new or used.

[Voixdelion]

Based on your first concern, a blue cherry keyboard seems like a good match. I wouldn't get a brown cherry, topre, or a low force linear switch (like red cherry) if you don't like bottoming out when you type (feeling the key press down to the bottom). Black cherry could be a good choice but as you said, there's no audible 'click'.

I concur with the BLUE cherry idea, not necessarily the black, but haven't used em myself so can't say for sure.  

Born in 72, I learned typing on the IBM selectrics when the computers were first hitting the home markets, so I transitioned well to the IBM keyboards of the time.  If the reunion was emotional with your M for reasons other than fond memories of typing class, then you are probably similar generation and will have similar preferences to finding a keyboard that matches what you were TRAINED to use for maximum comfort.

The reason I am thinking blue over black cherry is both the click and the actuation force requirements.   I find the greatest pleasure in typing on the blues after a fairly extensive experimentation ( details here ).  If the spirit of your passion for the M is due, like mine, to the way the typing of words seems to flow as quickly as the thoughts come to mind, then you are the exact person I have gone through more $1000 dollars worth of keyboards to aid through vicarious experience.  The Model M is a delight, but long sessions are taxing on the muscles just because of the required force to actuate each letter. The Black switches also have a greater requirement of force, so that might be a fatigue factor if much of your work will be long typing sessions of lots of words.

Also if you, like me, are a lover of the click (that M makes you really feel like you are accomplishing something as it sounds like rapid machine gun fire when on a hot streak...) then I would have recommended the Model F-AT which is even better feeling, but not a good layout for you since its not standard and is missing the "inverted T" arrow key cluster between the num pad and main section of the board.  If you can live without those though, then a (big-backspace modded) Model F-AT might well be to your liking also.  The click is even more pronounced, but "pingier."  Very nice for words flowing, but maybe not what you want in terms of layout.  

Which leads me back to the Cherry Blues, what I am currently typing on and the closest to typing nirvana I have found for cranking out pages of text and inspired notes of musings as they come.  The click - which I missed sorely in using the ALPS black switch - is crisp and higher pitched than the M, and I find that the click lets me type faster as I don't need to bottom out the key to know I've typed something.  I am just not as attuned to the actuation point of the non-clicky tactile keys (maybe because of my selectric background, I just expect the noise when typing) and the click signals me clearly so I needn't bottom out they keys as I would be likely to do with the blacks.  Because of that audio cue and the design of the MX switch to transfer force from the off-center keypress  to the center better, I find that my typing speed is even faster on the blues than on the Model M.  The actuation force was so light that it took some adjusting to to keep from typing letters by resting my hands on the home row or casually dragging across pairs of keys when typing that normally would bind on the edge of the key on other switches.  But once I learned not to lean on the board so much, I can type very quickly and I think its even making me a more precise typist also.  It takes just a bit of pressure even slightly off center for it to register.  Although the Buckling spring M is a pleasure to type on, for sustained typing periods it can be a bit fatiguing just from the muscle exercise  - like a workout.  The blues easy and forgiving nature means I am tireless over long stretches of inspiration (woe to the TL;DR intolerant!)

 I also like the white clicky ALPS, but after the blues I really notice the benefit of the MX design for the off-center key press.  My fingers are very long and there is quite a disparity between lengths of all four fingers, especially between immediately adjacent ones, so this really helps me so I can tap the key with the side of the tip of fingers and still register so I needed reach over with the wrists to hit the keys squarely with the longer fingers on the top row.  

I really think the IBM's (both F and M) are a passion that will never be displaced, kinda like my high school sweetheart first love, and you can have my M5-1 when you pry it from my cold dead fingers,  but I think the blues are maybe my e-harmony found best match love.  And the passion is just as great, just not as nostalgic, since I am new to them.  I thought it would be the ALPS, which were the ones I tried first after the Buckling springs mostly due to the cool LCD calculator on the Focus board I have.  The Blue cherries were the last of the switches I had a potential interest in (Thank GOD!) since I had determined early that the click was a non-negotiable requirement, and I'd spent so much money already that I was reluctant to bite the bullet and give em a whirl, but they haunted and tempted me until I gave in.  

Of course, its perfect.

So essentially if you read any of my other posts and find that you have similar thoughts/tastes and can relate to what I was looking for then I shall spare you the trouble of spending what I spent on the quest and say go with the blues.  I am currently debating whether to replace my second F-AT with a Filco or another Adesso MKB-135 since I can see this is a love that will last.  My remaining AT will probably hold up over time and pounding much better than the MX switches which will eventually give since I've read they don't wear time as well and I love typing on them so much I know they will getting extreme usage.

Hope that helps. (and if you decide to go blue because you do have similar taste- you might find this thread helpful in choosing which)

[wellington1869]

Basically, after an emotional reunion with the Model M

lol, is there any other kind of M reunion?

- I work as a translator: speed is money when you get paid for pages or words

i hope you're utilizing Dragon Naturally Speaking and google translate to aid in the labor (and save on some typing)

- DAS seems to vary force depending on which finger hits what key

incorrect, the new DAS'es are all same resistance and quite wunnerful. Available in europe, IIRC.

, I think I'd like that, but I prefer PS/2 to USB and I fear the rumoured problems with precision;

you mean true N-key rollover? Doubt you need that for typing...

- Unicomp keys reportedly don't feel the same and are somewhat harder on the fingers, which I'd rather avoid if true;

personally I thought my unicomps were a touch lighter than my M's

- Anyone had a TVS shipped out of India?

no, a drunken indian cousin is currently the only proven method of getting a tvs

- I need cursors for non-gaming reasons, so HHKB is out;

I hope you're utilizing autohotkey to help with both your typing efficiency and with your carpal issues. You can move cursor keys to your finger's home position. Saves both time and finger-labor.

[d2v]

no, a drunken indian cousin is currently the only proven method of getting a tvs

I can send you one, if you are willing to deal with customs in your country.

[Infinite north]

What the heck is happening in this image. since when does cherry do section weighted keys?
It also looks like they have the weights backwards from what you would normally see.

[hoggy]

I agree with didjamatic.  I have 6 keyboards on my desk at work and I force myself to swap to another at least once a day.  

The best way to find what switch you like is to try them all.  Why not start with an old Compaq MX11800 from ebay.  It'll be cheap, has cherry browns and a trackball, so you can use it on your lap (it's quite comfortable that way).  Even if you like the switch, you would do well to continue the search...

EDIT:
Oh, and think about changing your mouse.  My 3m vertical mouse has made more of a difference than any of the keyboards I've bought.

[wellington1869]

I can send you one, if you are willing to deal with customs in your country.

the OP might be interested... the tvs is dirt cheap and a great board for the money. about $25, IIRC, plus shipping of course.

[Findecanor]

Just get a G80-3000 with Cherry Blues on ebay.de ...
Cherry's own keyboards have better keys than any other keyboard that uses their switches.

[ch_123]

- Unicomp keys reportedly don't feel the same and are somewhat harder on the fingers, which I'd rather avoid if true;

Not true. If anything, they require slightly less force.

[woody]

- I'd prefer something shippable from Europe; otherwise shipment could be like $50 and the thing would be taxed 22% on the airport.

Shipment is still not cheap, but try this:
http://keyboardco.com/

Filco keyboard with MX Blue or MX Brown, depending on your preference. Or just get both (something which I should've done myself ...) :peace:
________
Katana

[NewbieOneKenobi]

If the spirit of your passion for the M is due, like mine, to the way the typing of words seems to flow as quickly as the thoughts come to mind, then you are the exact person I have gone through more $1000 dollars worth of keyboards to aid through vicarious experience.

Thank you. I appreciate the time you put in your message as well.

The Model M is a delight, but long sessions are taxing on the muscles just because of the required force to actuate each letter.

Yes, I do remember that. I thought it was because I was a newbie typer but maybe there's more to it.

The Black switches also have a greater requirement of force, so that might be a fatigue factor if much of your work will be long typing sessions of lots of words.

That's practically a given. I often have 8000 word projects on a sit down, do, send back basis.

Also if you, like me, are a lover of the click (that M makes you really feel like you are accomplishing something as it sounds like rapid machine gun fire when on a hot streak...) then I would have recommended the Model F-AT which is even better feeling, but not a good layout for you since its not standard and is missing the "inverted T" arrow key cluster between the num pad and main section of the board.  If you can live without those though, then a (big-backspace modded) Model F-AT might well be to your liking also.  The click is even more pronounced, but "pingier."  Very nice for words flowing, but maybe not what you want in terms of layout.

My step-father should have an AT keyboard somewhere because he had two 286's and one of them was better issue. The 'board looked exactly like the older IBM, the one with F-keys on the left. Chances are the keyboard might have been a clicky one. I can't be sure because he gave one 286 away at some point and I'm not sure with what keyboard.

I am just not as attuned to the actuation point of the non-clicky tactile keys (maybe because of my selectric background, I just expect the noise when typing) and the click signals me clearly so I needn't bottom out they keys as I would be likely to do with the blacks.

Same, even though it's been years since I last used a mechanical keyboard. I didn't know the term "rubber dome" or "mechanical switch" until last week but the conditioning seems to have remained forever. I feel like I lose typing speed because my fingers mire in the mushy stuff. This is why I actually like worn out keyboards or the oldest rubber dome designs (e.g. Chicony).

The actuation force was so light that it took some adjusting to to keep from typing letters by resting my hands on the home row or casually dragging across pairs of keys when typing that normally would bind on the edge of the key on other switches.

Yeah... I have a problem with corner hits perhaps partly because it was possible on the M to press a neighbouring kill a little without triggering it. On the other hand, I did like the way some keyboards would allow you to register a hit without precisely landing in the centre (I tackle quite a lot of keys by the edge or entirely from the side, depending on the way I'm typing at a given time).

But once I learned not to lean on the board so much, I can type very quickly and I think its even making me a more precise typist also.  It takes just a bit of pressure even slightly off center for it to register.  Although the Buckling spring M is a pleasure to type on, for sustained typing periods it can be a bit fatiguing just from the muscle exercise  - like a workout.  The blues easy and forgiving nature means I am tireless over long stretches of inspiration (woe to the TL;DR intolerant!)

Thank you, that's very valuable information. I would give much to skip the workout, as heavy-handed as my typing sometimes is.

My fingers are very long and there is quite a disparity between lengths of all four fingers, especially between immediately adjacent ones, so this really helps me so I can tap the key with the side of the tip of fingers and still register so I needed reach over with the wrists to hit the keys squarely with the longer fingers on the top row.

I see... What about me, 12 cm (4.7'') middle finger and almost the same length of the neighbouring ones? I've come to love the spacing between rows and columns of keys on old-style keyboards or the way it's done on the new Infinity (i.e. totally flat board), but anything in between is trouble. I've noticed some flat ones, whatever mechanism they use, have distinct spacing between keys. I like that, although I don't like the idea of hitting the casing and it has a bit of an odd feeling anyway.

Hope that helps. (and if you decide to go blue because you do have similar taste- you might find this thread helpful in choosing which)

Thank you, I will be giving it a look. I'm not sure to what extent it might be possible for the final manufacturer of a keyboard to customise the switches or influence their effect by tinkering with the circuitry etc. but I've been wondering whether gaming-specific solutions intended to improve rollover and reaction, while limiting ghosting etc. wouldn't perhaps fit my typing style better than a meat and potatoes typing keyboard. I do have some gamer habits from long hours playing Wacraft II and III online, which shows especially when I go for single keys, repeat command shortcuts, or type out short sequences as opposed to long-distance typing in an editor. Translation software has some of that, as text is divided into segments, so you rarely get to type more than 2 sentences before having to confirm a segment (two keys) and there are more things there are shortcuts for. This is, by the way, another reason why I think about a gaming board: instead of a game combo, I could bind a translation software command or a special character there, of which I also use a lot all the time.

Someone should make a keyboard for professional writers... coders, translators, lawyers, hehe. You'd have blues on symbol keys, reds on command ones and reds or blacks on flag keys. Oh, let's keep dreaming.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

First, let me say I have RSI and it's a pain, literally.

Yes, I know. It can get to the point you have to stop because even though you no longer feel the pain, your fingers are so stiff you just can't hit the right keys. And you feel like you're going to vomit. Learnt this during some hardcore projects.

For me, change helps RSI and my speed/accuracy.  When I stay on one board I get sloppy and RSI acts up, so I change it up by rotating what I use and that has helped me tremendously.

I remember reading about a doctor suggesting that to one professional typist, and starting to alternate between the x-scissors Medusa (probably the best scissor keyboard ever, although it lasts one year but then it's cheap) and the tall key Logitech EX110. I did some switching between the Medusa and the Hama too and now I'm typing on an IBM SK-8820 rubber dome while the Hama is waiting. I rarely don't have two keyboards plugged in at the same time.

Side note: I seem to like vintage, used cherry blues better than new ones.  It could be they are broken in and a little lighter, or that they have heavier DS caps on them or a combination of the two.  Brown cherries are great new or used.

I generally prefer used keyboards too.

You know the Brown Cherry's are called "ergonomic" by Cherry Corp for a reason.   I find them light AND springy.  And compared to your scissor switch they'll be plenty noisy.

That's valuable info. Generally, is there any comparison between scissors and browns? I did find myself with variable experience with the scissors. It was wonderful for a while, worse after getting used to it or after typing for long. I often ended up disliking the actuation moment as attractive as it was at the beginning.

lol, is there any other kind of M reunion?

Doubt that.

i hope you're utilizing Dragon Naturally Speaking and google translate to aid in the labor (and save on some typing)

I'm readying myself for DNS but Google Translate probably wouldn't save me much work in the end - there'd be a lot of moving around correcting things. Same reason I same of the proofing jobs or translation memory hits. Like when it registers a 80% match basing on some maths but you end up rewriting the sentence anyway (and getting paid 20%).

incorrect, the new DAS'es are all same resistance and quite wunnerful. Available in europe, IIRC.

Thanks! Actually was wondering if the variable resistance basing on which finger falls where could be a good thing.

you mean true N-key rollover? Doubt you need that for typing...

I don't but I thought being capable of it would reduce problems like swapping key sequence or not registering two close hits separately.

personally I thought my unicomps were a touch lighter than my M's

Thanks. That could actually work for me.

I hope you're utilizing autohotkey to help with both your typing efficiency and with your carpal issues. You can move cursor keys to your finger's home position. Saves both time and finger-labor.

Hmmm.... sounds nice. I was thinking about using voice commands for that. Sown, down, copy, confirm... This is what you'd likely hear from a translator.

Cherry's own keyboards have better keys than any other keyboard that uses their switches.

I thought that was likely.

Not true. If anything, they require slightly less force.

Umm, that's one more vote for Unicomps being lighter than old IBMs. I'm starting to feel tempted, although a Cherry would probably turn out much cheaper due to land shipment from Germany (mine or especially Cherry's own if they do have a warehouse here in Poland) and lack of VAT on airport. Speaking of Unicomp, any good reason not to get the black colour version (I know it comes without separate removable keytops), or to get the USB version (as I recall they said something about PS/2 port compatibility on their website)?

Hmm... One other possibility is getting a Model M in circumstances like when archaelogists undig an IBM service warehouse full of wrapped babies and sell them for 30 bucks apiece at Buy Now, but with Unicomps being slightly lighter, I'd tempted to give them preference over real old ones. The one I wrote about in the beginning, which belongs to my step-father (former AS 400mainframe coder), is the very one on which I learnt to type. The precise piece responsible for my typing style. I am not throwing it away even when it totally stops working. On the other hand, I don't necessarily feel the same about someone else's used piece.

Speaking of my old Model M. It saw relatively little use before premature retirement. I had to clean it because it had ugly stains and lots of sticky dust but I used good clean vodka, didn't pour inside the key holes (just on the board in between, although water did flow out downstairs), may have pressed a little hard once or twice with a cosmetic cotton stick but nothing more than this... I gave it solid blow-drying before plugging in (that was Saturday evening) and that was the only time pressing any key resulted in any character showing. Afterwards, the 'board spent an awful lot of time reclining against a big room fan. Still isn't working. Curiously, it lights Num Lock on and off but doesn't register anything I press. There's a repeating sound from inside the computer, similar to the one when a key is pressed repeatedly, and a Windows query about holding the shift key appeared at some point (but chars were still not getting registered, or even Caps Lock or anything). Any chance this is not a permanent condition? I'd be willing to look for a nut driver (might be a major fool's errand here) for emo value but I don't have one at hand. I probably wouldn't be able to determine the condition of the circuitry on my own, though. I've read people say these boards sometimes need long days to dry but some others were dish-washing them or typing happily just several hours after a normal wash.

[keyb_gr]

Curiously, it lights Num Lock on and off but doesn't register anything I press. There's a repeating sound from inside the computer, similar to the one when a key is pressed repeatedly, and a Windows query about holding the shift key appeared at some point (but chars were still not getting registered, or even Caps Lock or anything).

That does sound like either a stuck key or a messed-up membrane. If you shake the board, is there anything rattling inside? Broken rivets also are good for some fun.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

That does sound like either a stuck key or a messed-up membrane. If you shake the board, is there anything rattling inside? Broken rivets also are good for some fun.

Yeah, I had shaken it a couple of times to check for water sounds primarily but there was no rattling either. I may have messed the membrane by pressing too hard with the cotton stick.

I've just seen the 'board respond when plugged via the USB converter, though, starting with a string of minus signs that ceased after a moment. I don't know what gives but it seems either one more day of timeout helped or the different behaviour of USB did. I'll be checking in a minute how it behaves on PS/2 and/or if other keys work (I only had Del and Caps on).

Edit: The M works except the "l" key. Plugging it in via the USB converter results in a string of l's, after the interruption of which by pressing a different key "l" doesn't react. This looks more serious than problems with other keys before because the latter ceased after a short moment. Initially, the minus sign provided the greeting string but it stopped after a time. Then, "q" would be perma-triggered or produce large quantities. And "o" wouldn't work. But everything became fine after a short time. Sadly, not the "l" key. But I suppose if the problem really were permanent, there wouldn't be the hello string of l's on every plugging in. All other keys work fine except the UK backslash next to the short left Shift. Typing feels lovely, although I didn't get a surge of memories. The keys feel a bit linear compared to what I had expected (this is Lexmark, so it may be a bit different). What's really bad is that when trying to unstuck the "l" key, I seem to have pulled the spring too much and the key no longer has "the feel". Wonder if I'm going to be able to fix this without unscrewing the 'board.

Curiously, plugging it into the PS/2 port results in my HP w2007v monitor being un-detected to non-P&P resulting in loss of 1680*1050 mode. Same thing happens with a different PS/2 keyboard I have here (SK-8820, an IBM rubber dome).

[zefrer]

Someone should make a keyboard for professional writers... coders, translators, lawyers, hehe. You'd have blues on symbol keys, reds on command ones and reds or blacks on flag keys. Oh, let's keep dreaming.

Hmm actually, you basically just described the Kinesis Advantage. You can macro a key combination and bind that to a key of your choosing. So you could type out a predefined code sequence for programmers as a macro, etc.

[keyboardlover]

Hmm actually, you basically just described the Kinesis Advantage. You can macro a key combination and bind that to a key of your choosing. So you could type out a predefined code sequence for programmers as a macro, etc.

I'm a professional software developer and I swear by Realforce.

[ch_123]

Umm, that's one more vote for Unicomps being lighter than old IBMs. I'm starting to feel tempted, although a Cherry would probably turn out much cheaper due to land shipment from Germany (mine or especially Cherry's own if they do have a warehouse here in Poland) and lack of VAT on airport. Speaking of Unicomp, any good reason not to get the black colour version (I know it comes without separate removable keytops), or to get the USB version (as I recall they said something about PS/2 port compatibility on their website)?

I posted my post merely to refute the claim that Unicomps required more force, I wouldn't endorse them for someone with RSI/CTS or the like because they are still quite stiff. In such a scenario, I'd recommend a Topre.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

The offending spring is undergoing reeducation in a syringe. Tomorrow it will swap places with the ripe new volunteer from the Pause key.

I posted my post merely to refute the claim that Unicomps required more force, I wouldn't endorse them for someone with RSI/CTS or the like because they are still quite stiff. In such a scenario, I'd recommend a Topre.

Thank you. Yes, I know, I only took it for was it was, i.e. Unicomps being slightly lighter on the fingers than Model M, nothing more than that.

It seems that shop in Finland everybody talks about charges a relatively non-criminal price, which, with shipment included, should save me $70 compared to EliteKeyboards + shipment + VAT on airport, just as long as the Fins have included VAT in the €165. With ca. €25 for shipment, this should be €190 compared to some €105 for the Razer Black Widow, which is €60, which is probably enough to cover a TVS Gold with shipment, but hey, I could probably live with it if I get my customers to pay the debts. That is unless it shows I can type 16 hours without excessive fatigue on the M if I get to work, in which case the sentiment would be too strong.

Or is there a point ordering from EliteKeyboards, e.g. to inflict some customisation on it, say, play around with actuation force?

Also, is it true Topre doesn't offer that much tactile feedback?

[wellington1869]

I'm readying myself for DNS

let me know when you're ready, i've got a great DNS setup and can tell you about my own experience with it. On the whole it would be worthwhile for a translator to use, i think. Unless you have a thick accent or something. Quality microphone and a decent processor in your computer are key though.

I'd also recommend you consider convertible or tablet computer and use stylus along with dns. Thus you can just double tap on a word and say the correction. NO typing or mousing especially when editing - which should be great on your carpals.  Within win7 you can also write with the stylus and the hand writing recognition is excellent, definitely good enough for edits.  So stylus+DNS+Win7 is an excellent editor's combination, especially if you have carpals. Possibly may even work for 90% of your composing.

This stuff might be initially expensive (less so if you buy used stuff) but if you do this for a living it should be well worth the investment to find the right combination of tools to make your work (and thus your life) easier and less painful.

Speaking of Unicomp, any good reason not to get the black colour version (I know it comes without separate removable keytops)

i'm going to step out on a ledge and say that actually I found the single-keytops more fun. You feel more of the tactile click thru your fingertips, i thought, and that makes the key feel overall more crisp.  That said, the difference is very slight and very nuanced, so i'm being picky.

Re: keyboards, ultimately there is no substitute for acquiring the top contenders and having them in your own room, with your own hands on them, working with each for a bit, to decide which one(s) are right for you. You can always sell the extra ones and make some or most of the money back. Well worth the investment of time if you do this work for a living.

p.s., re: macros: autohotkey will do anything and everything you ever dreamed of doing with macros, well worth the very very short learning curve with it, you'll use it for the rest of your life and you'll wonder how on earth you lived without it. Seriously.

[wellington1869]

Also, is it true Topre doesn't offer that much tactile feedback?

in my experience, yes thats true. But its all relative. The topre have their own charms, but they're very different from M's or even blues.
but yea, for me they were, while high quality, just too quiet, too smooth, and too soft. Of course that might be what you're looking for, as always YMMV.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Just finished my first spring transplant... Pliers are a bit less cool than a bamboo stick, aren't they. The key is less clicky than the others now, which is annoying. Maybe I'll come back to it with a better tool. Leaving the M until morrow. Already getting better results but once in every 5-15 hits there's still a repeat or continuous entry.

It refuses to work on PS/2 without converter. I'm getting problems right from CMOS check with a couple of botched boots to boot.

[ch_123]

Also, is it true Topre doesn't offer that much tactile feedback?

It doesnt offer as much as some of the clicky mechanical switches on the market, but it's perfectly sufficient. Still better than the brown Cherry for example, which is borderline non-tactile.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

It doesnt offer as much as some of the clicky mechanical switches on the market, but it's perfectly sufficient. Still better than the brown Cherry for example, which is borderline non-tactile.

Thanks. I might get it then. I'm typing on the M right now and it feels a bit hard in terms of input. As if my fingers were weaker, this kind of feeling. I'll have to check the PS/2 response speed if I get it to work. I remember that when I plugged the old rubber dome SK-8820, it was ultrafast on USB and slow on PS/2, so ports etc. apparently can mess things up a bit. And I notice myself either bottoming out a lot or typing relatively slowly, while yesterday night it well I was typing really fast. The "l" key finally works, although because of the spring incident, it's no longer the same.

Another strange thing is that certain key combinations don't work, e.g.:

highlighting the text works with left Shift + cursor/home/end but not right Shift + cursor, while capital letters are still produced with it;

CTRL+end works with left CTRL only, CTRL+home doesn't work at all;

This may be a problem because I routinely use text edition related shortcuts. THe problem doesn't appear on the SK-8820, so I guess this isn't about the USB converter. Plus, typing on the SK-8820 rubber dome seems noticeably faster, although with some gummy feeling and all.

Meanwhile, it's been confirmed we had an original XT keyboard back in the time, as the 286 which was an XT before upgrading was an original one, not a clone. Darn it. But I'm pretty sure there was another good keyboard there, as there was another 286 back in the time (still is: one of the six venerable units keeping watch behind my step-father's fridge. ).

Meanwhile again, while talking to my friend on the phone today, it turned out his mother works at a school where there were Model M's when he went there. Perhaps there might still be in some loot chest on the dungeon level.

And I'll most likely be getting the TVS, possibly more than one, to split shipment with friends and making shipment worth it in the first place (otherwise it'll probably cost the same as the keyboard). I just can't resist the nerd idea of fun consisting in importing a keyboard from India. And it'll probably be a good start to see (or rather feel) how today's mechanical keyboards work, too.

Will be skipping on a new Cherry because the rep said it was 80 euro before VAT for the white-case blue-switch G80, waiting time 4-5 weeks, and I remember reading about orders on blues from Poland getting cancelled again and again due to shortages. In this situation it'd be kinda insane not to get the Razer Black Widow instead. Besides, given the way they're promo-ing Lycosa and Arctosa (I initially had "Lactosa" typed in ) to death, I think they'll hit hard with a Black Widow launch, meaning I might be able to check it with my very own hands. One of the retailers allows coming with your own laptop and trying keyboards out. At least I'll know if the blue switch is to my liking.

And since I'd already be spending serious money, I might as well shell out another hundred euros and get a Topre. Especially as you say it offers more tactile feedback than the brown switch that I've given some thought too (though more likely sticking with blue).

Incidentally, isn't the space bar of the M made of a different material from the rest of the keys? I gave it a many times longer detergent bath and proper toothpaste/toothbrush processing but it's ivory, as opposed to all other white keys looking like on a new board (and they had been same ugly as the space), while in the greys, you can actually see reflections. I'm thinking about putting it in Coke (if it's good for cleaning toilet seats...) since there's no way I'd sacrifice so much vodka. Actually, ivory is cooler than plain white but the difference looks odd.

[quadibloc]

li hope you're utilizing Dragon Naturally Speaking and google translate to aid in the labor (and save on some typing)

Indeed. I'm afraid the idea of a keyboard suitable for massive typing by someone with a serious RSI problem is an oxymoron - no keyboard, however good its tactile feedback, will adequately serve that purpose.

Until they can regenerate nerve tissue, or, better yet, interface an extra set of strap-on metal arms that you can control with your brain, some other way to communicate with the outside world is needed.

But, on the other hand, if you touch-type instead of doing one-finger typing, I tend to suspect mice cause more RSI than keyboards do.

[Daniel Beaver]

How about a Selectric? I seem to remember someone here claiming that these ergonomic problems were a non-issue back then...

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Indeed. I'm afraid the idea of a keyboard suitable for massive typing by someone with a serious RSI problem is an oxymoron - no keyboard, however good its tactile feedback, will adequately serve that purpose.

Yeah, that's true. Massive typing is simply not (any longer) ideal for anybody with RSI. But I gotta eat. I suppose I will need a longer vacation some time after finding the right keyboard. Noticeably, the Hama I'm now using (I put the sound up a couple of hours ago) is actually a bit of a vacation compared to previous keyboards, as much as I dislike the thing.

But, on the other hand, if you touch-type instead of doing one-finger typing, I tend to suspect mice cause more RSI than keyboards do.

True. I even forgot my mouse had weights in it (promptly removed when recalled). It was an RTS gaming thing, max weight, max speed setting. Except I no longer even play those things. In fact, my right hand is in a worse condition in terms of inflammation, but it has perfect sense. On the other hand, my left has less serious RSI problems but a number feel. I've been thinking about switching to Dvorak.

[chrs]

Part of how I got over my once-severe RSI was to stop using my hands with any pointing device and put a Kensington Expert "Mouse" trackball on the floor to use with my stocking feet.  Worked so well that I still use it that way even when I don't have  RSI problems--I can mouse and click while keeping both hands on my keyboard, which is a nice productivity boost.  Or I can sip my coffee while I browse the internet with my feet, which is a big productivity drain.  Net effect?  Let's not examine that issue, or that pun, too closely.

Switching to a decent mechanical keyboard also helped a lot.  In my case, an ALPS non-clicky AT-101W board, though that was without having the benefit of learning about other options in mechanical keyswitches.

[Rajagra]

Part of how I got over my once-severe RSI was to stop using my hands with any pointing device and put a Kensington Expert "Mouse" trackball on the floor to use with my stocking feet.

Interesting idea. I wonder which trackball has the best ergonomics for foot-operated use.

[hoggy]

Part of how I got over my once-severe RSI was to stop using my hands with any pointing device and put a Kensington Expert "Mouse" trackball on the floor to use with my stocking feet.

I loved this idea so much I tried it out straight away - nice!

Works really well with an endurapro - the mouse buttons on the keyboard should help with the learning curve...

How long did it take you to get used to it?  It's a bigger jump than swapping to the left.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

I did swap to the left once. I was such a gaming addict as a kid that I couldn't bear not playing RTS just because my right hand was injured. I think I did it with a non-profiled wireless later on too.

Guys, my typing experience with the M has been improved greatly by padding the spacebar stabiliser. Now the space feels like a normal key.

(http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:11770)

I'm still getting used to its size, though. Started off constantly hitting it instead of the AltGr but improved a bit as time went on. Still taking a 10% hit to typing speed. I could use the keys lighter.

[hoggy]

I've been thinking about switching to Dvorak.

Trust me, it's worth it.  I do wonder if I might have had an easier time if I switched to colemak instead.  

Dvorak is much more comfortable than the same amount of typing on qwerty, but nothing beats not typing at all.  Macro express, autohotkey and texter and all worth checking out.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

The only problem so far is that with Dvorak keys I can't do the Polish thing, i.e. press the AltGr to receive Polish characters, so I'd need to keep two layouts in memory. Then again, I don't really need to switch to Dvorak in the actual settings. Just remapping the keys in Keymapper under the Polish programmer's layout should be enough, then AltGr combos would follow this mapping... hmm... sounds kinda cool.

I'm discovering typing on the M to be more and more fun. I suppose this comes with unlearning the bottoming out reflex. I almost feel I could be typing faster than on any other keyboard (i.e. probably any non-mechanical keyboard) except for the wretched space bar. As if they couldn't have made it the same as any other key, just longer? I'm thinking about playing surgeon again.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Wouldn't like to start another new thread but wondering how typing feels on a linear switch. As in, any people actually choosing the linear switch for typing rather than gaming.

Edit: Issue2: Key transpositions when rolling fingers. I do the latter a lot but primarily on flat keys anyway. Or those tall rubber domes which give in easily. Won't this be a problem with the blues? Would blacks handle it better?

Plan for now: Stick with M but finalise the TVS direct order. I need a keyboard that's my own. The M technically is not, even though it used to be, kinda (though it wasn't my first childhood keyboard--turns out to have been an F, real or clone, and an AT one with all function keys on the left--that stuff was clicky). Plus, TVS is cheaper and weights less, making it good for travel. If I land a good contract or two, I'm ordering RF with blank lavender keys and putting it in the tax form. Still hunting for M/F bargains.

[d2v]

Wouldn't like to start another new thread but wondering how typing feels on a linear switch. As in, any people actually choosing the linear switch for typing rather than gaming.

Edit: Issue2: Key transpositions when rolling fingers. I do the latter a lot but primarily on flat keys anyway. Or those tall rubber domes which give in easily. Won't this be a problem with the blues? Would blacks handle it better?

Plan for now: Stick with M but finalise the TVS direct order. I need a keyboard that's my own. The M technically is not, even though it used to be, kinda (though it wasn't my first childhood keyboard--turns out to have been an F, real or clone, and an AT one with all function keys on the left--that stuff was clicky). Plus, TVS is cheaper and weights less, making it good for travel. If I land a good contract or two, I'm ordering RF with blank lavender keys and putting it in the tax form. Still hunting for M/F bargains.

I find typing on a linear switch smoother than say, a blue cherry. Once you master the act of typing without bottoming out, there's nothing as smooth as a linear switch. Not bottoming out is very easy on black cherry, because the resistance after actuation point is very high, which aids in releasing the switch before bottoming out.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Thankee. I do wonder. Then again, if I were to spend big cash and deal with all the frightening formalities, I might as well go Topre (and put it in the tax form as a tool of the trade)... as no matter what kind of switch we're discussing, Topre seems to be the more evolved form of it. Makes me think of ordering an all-30g Topre keyboard and learning to type on it (I probably could because I can have very light touch if I want to). Ideally, I would have it come with lavender keys with skulls on them and show it to tax and customs officers, as well my customers (I specialise in law translations, for example right now, I'm hammering a public procurement for a bank and I would love to see the CEO's face upon seeing such a keyboard).

[d2v]

... as no matter what kind of switch we're discussing, Topre seems to be the more evolved form of it.

Disagree..
Linear switch is the best. But its a matter of taste.. YMMV.

[d2v]

The only problem so far is that with Dvorak keys I can't do the Polish thing, i.e. press the AltGr to receive Polish characters, so I'd need to keep two layouts in memory.

Not if you are using autohotkey or low level registry mapping. Autohotkey is godsend for keyboard wizardry.

[chrs]

Makes me think of ordering an all-30g Topre keyboard and learning to type on it (I probably could because I can have very light touch if I want to).

Does someone sell boards with custom Topre switch forces?  I might be interested, though it's hard to be sure enough to commit that much money without trying it first.

Ideally, I would have it come with lavender keys with skulls on them and show it to tax and customs officers, as well my customers (I specialise in law translations, for example right now, I'm hammering a public procurement for a bank and I would love to see the CEO's face upon seeing such a keyboard).

Nice!

[chrs]

Wouldn't like to start another new thread but wondering how typing feels on a linear switch. As in, any people actually choosing the linear switch for typing rather than gaming.

I have yet to find anything that works for me as well as my AT-101 linear ALPS boards.  I keep thinking I want light force, but it seems like linear action is more important in practice.

[chrs]

I loved this idea so much I tried it out straight away - nice!

Works really well with an endurapro - the mouse buttons on the keyboard should help with the learning curve...

How long did it take you to get used to it?  It's a bigger jump than swapping to the left.

"It" being trackball on the floor, foot operated.

It was a long time ago so it's hard to remember but I think it took a month to have it seem fluent, but it wasn't too bad being a little clumsy with it at first--slowed me down a bit which inserted a pause in my typing that was good for me.  I probably continued getting better for maybe 6 months before I leveled off to the point where sitting at a computer with my shoes one feels just as weird as sitting at one with mittens on.  (OK, a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the idea.)

It needs the dust blown out periodically, perhaps weekly.  I keep the screws loose so it's easy to pick it up and do that.

[d2v]

Thankee. I do wonder. Then again, if I were to spend big cash and deal with all the frightening formalities, I might as well go Topre (and put it in the tax form as a tool of the trade)... as no matter what kind of switch we're discussing, Topre seems to be the more evolved form of it. Makes me think of ordering an all-30g Topre keyboard and learning to type on it (I probably could because I can have very light touch if I want to). Ideally, I would have it come with lavender keys with skulls on them and show it to tax and customs officers, as well my customers (I specialise in law translations, for example right now, I'm hammering a public procurement for a bank and I would love to see the CEO's face upon seeing such a keyboard).

You could probably do something more badass with an Optimus Maximus board...

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Does someone sell boards with custom Topre switch forces?  I might be interested, though it's hard to be sure enough to commit that much money without trying it first.



Nice!

Thanks. Dunno about anyone selling custom force Topres but I know there's one version with all keys set to 55 cN and a variable one. One of them you can't get from EliteKeyboars from what I've been able to gather. I remember reading about all 30 cN keys keyboards. I thought, hey, maybe they can do that too. But I'm not sure. Could be interesting to type on.

Personally, I'm still unsure about my response the tactile and acoustic feedback. There is something in me telling me that maybe, just maybe, a low-force linear keyboard could be good to type on, for me specifically. And probably nobody else in family or friends would be able to type on it, just like with my l33t RSI-friendly mouse settings (the previous thing I had was a heavy wireless Logitech EX110 mouse of small size with two layers of tiny circular teflon sliders, just four of them (custom made ones by some guy in Poland, I could dig up his e-mail address, no awful shipment fees since it could fly in a letter envelope and Polish fees are smaller anyway), replacing the original ones, it was being used with a round pad with particularly stiff and porous texture that I bought at a Greek museum, it was overkill in Warcraft 3).

It's official, I've made my mind about the TVS Gold. I'm buying a bunch to make the product price to shipment fee ration more reasonably, although there will be damn VAT to pay. Oh waitasec, there is VAT in India, just less and not in all states of the country. This might be good.

Tax humour: try depreciating an M!

[NewbieOneKenobi]

You could probably do something more badass with an Optimus Maximus board...

Not so much badass as everybody-gasps-and-nods-professional, as in a bunch of dead keys for all sorts of additions human creativity has put above, below, or through, Latin letters. (E.g. this kind of thing: http://office.microsoft.com/assistance/hfws.aspx?AssetID=HP051865621033). And the double dash. And the § sign. I would probably cave in and make a one-key save, as opposed to CTRL+S. Come to think of it, e-mail key too. But no windows keys.

But Maximus is Cherry blue and I can get the same from TVS. Except Maximus seems to have low-profile keys, which may be interesting with mechanical switches. Personally, I would like a metal x-scissor with a buckling spring. Four tiny springs, one for each corner of a flat key, could also be funny to type on. Someone already make me a designer at Unicomp. Who cares 2 weeks ago I didn't know what a mechanical switch was.

Incidentally, I've just been referred to a very nice makeover of the standard Polish programmer's layout that has all the nice things I would need a remapping program for. (http://fonty.pl/sklep,20,gratisy.htm just for the curiosity value, just see what nice things you can do with AltGr).