Author Topic: Just gone back from low-profile mech to full-height, and typing is tiresome  (Read 3249 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline NewbieOneKenobi

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 633
For the last couple of years I've used a tenkeyless implementation of low-profile blue Kailhs (similar to Purewriter but from a niche vendor). But after damaging it this week I had to get something new, so I bought a Coolermaster MK730 — tenkeyless full-height cherry browns plus wristrest. Suddenly, typing feels like a lot of work compared to the happy zapping on the low-profile unit. I'm actually thinking about getting a Purewriter anyway, or perhaps Corsair MK.2 Low Profile or even CM SK630 with the TTC low-profile opticals.

Ironically, my just about sole complaint about the low-profile board is gone — the keys don't feel like they're not tall enough for where my fingers want to go. I no longer end up aiming like half an inch too high. However, even if I don't bottom out, typing on these full-sized browns now feels like working in clay, and boy, are my palms hurting. It's like live fire in my joints. And to avoid bottoming out, I have to type either very fast and flawlessly (not really realistic) or very slowly (counterproductive). No such problem on the low-profile.

Anybody with similar experience?

Offline Findecanor

  • Posts: 4983
  • Location: Koriko
I recently spent three weeks in hospital/rehab with only a touchscreen keyboard (my BT kb broke..), and when I came home my Cherry MX Clear keyboard felt really heavy. But after a few days, I was back at typing normally.
Man must shape his tools lest they shape him
-- Arthur Miller

Offline NewbieOneKenobi

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 633
I recently spent three weeks in hospital/rehab with only a touchscreen keyboard (my BT kb broke..), and when I came home my Cherry MX Clear keyboard felt really heavy. But after a few days, I was back at typing normally.

Thank you. Hope you've recovered!

It's a weird feeling, really. Cherries are supposed to feel almost luxurious… well, not as much as Topre (wasn't really a fan) or some of the Mac 'boards or some of the more exotic switches but anyway. And what it feels like is more like plastic clunking. Could be just the keyboard rather than the switches, of course, as I remember boards with a more metal feel even in lower price brackets (HyperX and some of the Corsairs come to mind). My Filco Majestouch, though it wasn't as spectacular as the name and fame implies, of course felt more hi-end. A different board I gave away to my best buddy had Kailh browns, and those were a bit worse than the cherries but comparable. Old browns — and I used to have a unit from early 90s — were also lighter and less plasticky, I think.

Right now I'm trying to type without the wristrest, but it's a bit too tall. My Filco (many keys no longer work but the frame is there) definitely is a good couple of milimetres less tall, and that was already too tall for me back in the day.

Today, I bought a used Sharkoon Purewriter TKL with German keycaps at a bargain, like twenty bucks. I figured I can use the standard keycaps from my Modecom, which is still a great 'board, but I can't really do without the '-' sign or with repetitions from chattering in my line of work (I'm a translator and we get like 1000 times more flak for a typo than a normal writer does). Except this time it's red chocs, not blue.

Next in the line is Logitech G815 perhaps or some kind of Filco Majestouch with low-profile switches, and I've seen one of those.

Sigh, neither solution is perfect.

Offline Sup

  • * Exquisite Elder
  • Posts: 1282
  • Doing university was a mistake
honestly you should go back to what worked for you. There are probably low profile keyboards with clicky kailh choc whites.
current
Filco Zero -  NOS Yellow Alps | Canoe R1 Gateron Red | AEK II JP Cream dampend |Filco Majestouch 2 Tex case Gateron Yellow | HHKB Pro 1 2003 Rev AO Serial 000171 | HHKB Pro 1 2003 Rev A1s|DZ60 OG Panda's with Fei spring and stem. | Sentraq S65_Plus OG Invyr Panda's | A17 Gateron Black TX 65G 3204 | Lubrigrante Wildcard Cherry MX silent blacks 3204 58.5G Springs | Rukia Everglide Tourmaline Blue 58.5G Springs | MGA Standard Greetech brown |
Coming soon
Rest in peace Billy Herrington(William Glen Harold Herrington) 1969-2018
Rest in peace Byron Daniel 1989-2020

Offline NewbieOneKenobi

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 633
honestly you should go back to what worked for you. There are probably low profile keyboards with clicky kailh choc whites.

Never pawed those. Midway between blue and brown, or how do they feel?

Offline 1391401

  • Posts: 433
  • MX CLEAR
FWIW whenever I switch to something that is very different (like my stupid mx grey board I made) it takes a while to get used to but I always do.
People I've given money to from this webform who never respond to me and have not shipped me anything: ctrlalt.io 1 2, Team Readline Reputable alternatives to GH group buys: http://pimpmykeyboard.com, https://www.massdrop.com,

Offline NewbieOneKenobi

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 633
FWIW whenever I switch to something that is very different (like my stupid mx grey board I made) it takes a while to get used to but I always do.

True, I forgot that after a while. I recall I could never get used to the Topre in Nova Touch or Kailh browns in one of those cheaper gaming keyboards, while it took me a long time with Cherry blues in Filco Majestouch with some really difficult adjustment but eventually it worked.

So, right now I've got used to the Cherry browns in the MK730 to the point that when the Purewriter with red chocs arrived today, I found it more difficult, I think. It's not like the red chocs are bad. It's more like the switch feels, well, not exactly stiff, but I can feel its resistance in my finger joints more than I would like to. Totally unlike the choc blues on the Modecom Keyboard, even though the blues of course theoretically need more actuation force.

Bottom line, on choc blues I type effortlessly. Anything else, I don't. Long-term fatigue could be a different problem, and I suspect reds or browns would spare me some, but short-term fatigue is awful on anything else than choc blues.

Oh, and I almost forgot: I actually didn't need any adjustment period with the choc blues or maybe just a little, but like one day or something. They were exceptional in this regard.

The sad thing is, I can't really find anything new with choc blues other than MSI Vigor, which is a bit tall for a low-profile 'board. There are one or two used units of the same Modecom I still have, but they cost more than I paid for mine when it was new. I'll probably need to buy them just in case or maybe give Logitech G815 a try.

Offline HungerMechanic

  • Posts: 1271
I recently spent three weeks in hospital/rehab with only a touchscreen keyboard (my BT kb broke..), and when I came home my Cherry MX Clear keyboard felt really heavy. But after a few days, I was back at typing normally.

Thank you. Hope you've recovered!

It's a weird feeling, really. Cherries are supposed to feel almost luxurious… well, not as much as Topre (wasn't really a fan) or some of the Mac 'boards or some of the more exotic switches but anyway. And what it feels like is more like plastic clunking. Could be just the keyboard rather than the switches, of course, as I remember boards with a more metal feel even in lower price brackets (HyperX and some of the Corsairs come to mind). My Filco Majestouch, though it wasn't as spectacular as the name and fame implies, of course felt more hi-end. A different board I gave away to my best buddy had Kailh browns, and those were a bit worse than the cherries but comparable. Old browns — and I used to have a unit from early 90s — were also lighter and less plasticky, I think.

I hear you - the 'luxury' of most stock Cherry switches and keyboards is a complete lie.

Maybe they were good at some point, but not when I bought a couple.

I tried to capture the feeling of the better, older switches. And maybe I succeeded somewhat.

SP Star Meteor Orange is like a cleaner, somewhat smoother MX Brown. Maybe a few G lighter, with a more distinct bump [less gritty.] If filmed, lubed carefully with 3204 [I can give you the recipe], and with Cherry tops, these are better than MX Browns.

There's a few other light/light-medium tactiles that can build a "better Browns" keyboard, as well. [Everglide Jade Green (needs a lot of work), Zealio V1 Redux with 60 G TX springs, maybe, AKKO has POM Browns I haven't tried yet]. The new MODE Tomorrow tactiles have few of MX Brown's weaknesses, but there needs to be a lighter variant with a Cherry-like bump.

Anyway, top-mount is really important here. And the aforementioned switches seem to do better on softer plates. So, I have learned, you can build a keyboard that is what MX Brown is supposed to be. Just not with MX Browns. [I kid, I kid, if you are careful you can apparently build a nice MX Brown keyboard. You just can't reliably buy one.]

Offline HungerMechanic

  • Posts: 1271
The other thing I wanted to add to this is that I tried Kailh Sunset tactiles, which are low-profile Chocs. They were amazing! They were about as tactile as Boba U4T, maybe, but it didn't feel as extreme in the shallower travel.

Kinda reminded me of ALPS or other classic designs, that were all about feedback and response, and not just an empty (scratchy) travel.

So I think that ergonomics can be fully satisfied in low-profile mechanical switches.




I feel as though the 4mm standard travel in Cherry MX switches is not based on thorough human-testing.

Going from low-travel rubber domes and scissor-switch to Cherry MX, it felt clumsy, shaky, and uncertain. And inefficient, having to travel further up and down. It's comfortable now, I'm used to it, but I don't think the 4mm travel is necessary for comfortable typing.

(And the Kailh 'pro' switches that have ~3.6mm travel are fine.)


Offline Sup

  • * Exquisite Elder
  • Posts: 1282
  • Doing university was a mistake
Re: Just gone back from low-profile mech to full-height, and typing is tiresome
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 01 February 2023, 07:19:08 »
FWIW whenever I switch to something that is very different (like my stupid mx grey board I made) it takes a while to get used to but I always do.

True, I forgot that after a while. I recall I could never get used to the Topre in Nova Touch or Kailh browns in one of those cheaper gaming keyboards, while it took me a long time with Cherry blues in Filco Majestouch with some really difficult adjustment but eventually it worked.

So, right now I've got used to the Cherry browns in the MK730 to the point that when the Purewriter with red chocs arrived today, I found it more difficult, I think. It's not like the red chocs are bad. It's more like the switch feels, well, not exactly stiff, but I can feel its resistance in my finger joints more than I would like to. Totally unlike the choc blues on the Modecom Keyboard, even though the blues of course theoretically need more actuation force.

Bottom line, on choc blues I type effortlessly. Anything else, I don't. Long-term fatigue could be a different problem, and I suspect reds or browns would spare me some, but short-term fatigue is awful on anything else than choc blues.

Oh, and I almost forgot: I actually didn't need any adjustment period with the choc blues or maybe just a little, but like one day or something. They were exceptional in this regard.

The sad thing is, I can't really find anything new with choc blues other than MSI Vigor, which is a bit tall for a low-profile 'board. There are one or two used units of the same Modecom I still have, but they cost more than I paid for mine when it was new. I'll probably need to buy them just in case or maybe give Logitech G815 a try.

Just fyi choc blues don't exist anymore and are replaced with choc whites. Also you have some custom choc switches like pro red/crystal red being 35g. With choch switches its usually 10g more heavy if you would compare it to a mx switch weighting.
So depending you can also mod choc switches with different spring weights to make it lighter or heavier. You would probably need to learn soldering.
current
Filco Zero -  NOS Yellow Alps | Canoe R1 Gateron Red | AEK II JP Cream dampend |Filco Majestouch 2 Tex case Gateron Yellow | HHKB Pro 1 2003 Rev AO Serial 000171 | HHKB Pro 1 2003 Rev A1s|DZ60 OG Panda's with Fei spring and stem. | Sentraq S65_Plus OG Invyr Panda's | A17 Gateron Black TX 65G 3204 | Lubrigrante Wildcard Cherry MX silent blacks 3204 58.5G Springs | Rukia Everglide Tourmaline Blue 58.5G Springs | MGA Standard Greetech brown |
Coming soon
Rest in peace Billy Herrington(William Glen Harold Herrington) 1969-2018
Rest in peace Byron Daniel 1989-2020

Offline HungerMechanic

  • Posts: 1271
Re: Just gone back from low-profile mech to full-height, and typing is tiresome
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 01 February 2023, 12:13:10 »
As for the OP's typing experience, I was looking into softer-typing switches for somebody, recently.

In terms of linears, Gateron Pro and CAP Yellow are reasonably-weighted, bottom-out isn't hard, but isn't necessary. Same for Gateron Pink. Silenced linears, like Silent Alpaca and OUTEMU Silent Peach, can be even better in this respect. The OUTEMU silent tactiles (Lemon-Lime and Cream Yellow) are like that, and cheap to boot.

So one solution is trying not to bottom-out by experimenting with spring weights. Another is using dampened switches (which are common and cheap now, and take advantage of the travel provided by MX.)

A third option is trying to actuate at the top, leaving the downstroke mostly untouched. If you put a 63.5 - 65 G spring in a Kailh Pro Purple, for example, it's like a Brown that actuates at the top. You move on to the next switch before the switch is bottomed.

For the OP, the first thing I would have tried is just a low-profile Choc White keyboard. Like the OP, I don't necessarily find the giant-travel of often-scratchy ('chuffy') MX and Topre keyboards to be the highest form of typing. A well-designed low-travel switch can be just fine. It's too bad you can't just buy a TKL full of Choc Sunsets.

BTW I don't know what Choc Whites are like, but BOX Whites are excellent. In the hype for Jades and Navy, they are underrated. It's crisp, but light. Easy, long-form typing. The (correctly-implemented) MX Brown of BOX Clickies. I guess the Chocs might be 10 G heavier?

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 2164
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: Just gone back from low-profile mech to full-height, and typing is tiresome
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 03 February 2023, 04:11:19 »
BTW I don't know what Choc Whites are like, but BOX Whites are excellent. In the hype for Jades and Navy, they are underrated. It's crisp, but light. Easy, long-form typing. The (correctly-implemented) MX Brown of BOX Clickies. I guess the Chocs might be 10 G heavier?

I never noticed before, but the chocs are definitely a little stiffer comparing the two. I don't think there's any other difference. They use the same click bar.

The hype is real for jades and navies. Whites are even less tactile than MX blue and more high-pitched than pinks or jades. I don't think that usually appeals to people who tend to prefer clickies in general over other switch types. Dampened box whites would maybe be interesting. Clicky Matias switches with dampened sliders sure are.

Offline HungerMechanic

  • Posts: 1271
Re: Just gone back from low-profile mech to full-height, and typing is tiresome
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 03 February 2023, 06:55:11 »
BOX Whites do suffer from those deficiencies. From a clicky-appreciator perspective, they aren't top-tier. I just find them more restrained, and pleasantly crisp.

Something with Choc Whites could be a solution for OP, unless they are into heavier stuff. Wish I could try those dampened Matias.

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 2164
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: Just gone back from low-profile mech to full-height, and typing is tiresome
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 03 February 2023, 11:38:54 »
BOX Whites do suffer from those deficiencies. From a clicky-appreciator perspective, they aren't top-tier. I just find them more restrained, and pleasantly crisp.

Something with Choc Whites could be a solution for OP, unless they are into heavier stuff. Wish I could try those dampened Matias.

The whole box family of clickies are nice and crisp, probably no less crisp than any of the crispest of clickies. I would consider even jades to be restrained compared to some alternatives *cough* Clickiez *cough*, but to each their own.

Matias switches are dirt cheap, there's nothing stopping you from playing with some. Would be nice if there were more options for off-the-shelf boards for them though besides 60% and Matias. Seems like the V80 is basically dead now.

Offline CaesarAZealad

  • Posts: 349
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Racc
Re: Just gone back from low-profile mech to full-height, and typing is tiresome
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 05 February 2023, 15:29:36 »
BOX Whites do suffer from those deficiencies. From a clicky-appreciator perspective, they aren't top-tier. I just find them more restrained, and pleasantly crisp.

Something with Choc Whites could be a solution for OP, unless they are into heavier stuff. Wish I could try those dampened Matias.

The whole box family of clickies are nice and crisp, probably no less crisp than any of the crispest of clickies. I would consider even jades to be restrained compared to some alternatives *cough* Clickiez *cough*, but to each their own.

Matias switches are dirt cheap, there's nothing stopping you from playing with some. Would be nice if there were more options for off-the-shelf boards for them though besides 60% and Matias. Seems like the V80 is basically dead now.
Yeah clickiez are very nice, but if you're looking for a switch to avoid tiring out your fingers they are most definitely not it lmao
I third the box whites. Really liked them when I tried them. Reminds me of a model M. Crisp, light, clicky.
One, Two, Three, Four, Five, Six, Seven, Eight, Nine, Ten, Eleven, Twelve, Thirteen, Fourteen, Fifteen, Sixteen, Seventeen, Eighteen, Nineteen... Yeah that seems about right.
"Ask your mother how good I can use more than two fingers." - Caesar, 2023