Thinkpad or Macbook?

[iMav]

Recently sold my MBP and my Mac mini and will be purchasing a new personal laptop (I have a Dell Latitude E6410 (i7, 8GB ram) for work).  

I want a small powerhouse.  The Lenovo TP X201 can be had with a 12.1" screen, 8GB ram, and an i7 CPU.   You got to move up to a 15.4" MBP to get something better than a Core2Duo CPU.  Of course, all that may change this wednesday (Apple "back to Mac" media event).

I have a habit of switching back and forth between Macs and PCs (w/ linux)...so I am leaning towards the Thinkpad.  But if there is something exciting announced this wednesday, who knows?  

[keyboardlover]

Last year I got an awesome Black Friday deal on a Thinkpad W500 mobile workstation. If you're considering a Thinkpad it's definitely worth it to wait and see what kind of black friday deals they will have this year.

I love it and it's a beast:

$1,530.21 incl. tax & FREE shipping

Intel CR2DUO PR P8700(2.53GHZ)
GEN WIN 7 PRFS 64 US EN
15.4 WUXGA TFT
ATIMBLITYFGLV5700W/512VR
8GBPC3-8500 1067MHZ1DIMM
SBBULTRA NAV(TR.POINT+TOUCHPAD)
INTEGRATED CAMERA
128GB SOLIDSTATE DRV,SATA
DVD REC8XMAXDUL.ULT.S.SATA
EXPR.CARD SLOT/PCCARDSLOT
INT.WIFI LINK5300
INTWIRELESSWIDEAR.NETW.UPG
SBB 6 CELL LI-ION BATTERY

[Ekaros]

Thinkpad... I have been thinking if I could get tablet for resonable price with right layout, maybe after next summer...

[wap32]

I'd definitely go for a Thinkpad, the X201s is really awesome.

Another option could be the T410s; not as small, but still small.

[ch_123]

Recently sold my MBP and my Mac mini and will be purchasing a new personal laptop (I have a Dell Latitude E6410 (i7, 8GB ram) for work).  

I want a small powerhouse.  The Lenovo TP X201 can be had with a 12.1" screen, 8GB ram, and an i7 CPU.   You got to move up to a 15.4" MBP to get something better than a Core2Duo CPU.  Of course, all that may change this wednesday (Apple "back to Mac" media event).

I have a habit of switching back and forth between Macs and PCs (w/ linux)...so I am leaning towards the Thinkpad.  But if there is something exciting announced this wednesday, who knows?  

The MBP line was upgraded over summer. The reason why the C2D is still used in the 13" Mac is to do with a licensing dispute between Intel and nVidia, which prohibits the latter from making motherboard chipsets for current generation Intel CPUs. This is why the 15" and 17" models went from having an integrated nVidia chipset and a discrete nVidia GPU to having an integrated Intel chipset and discrete nVidia GPU. Long story short - don't get your hopes up about seeing a 13" MBP with a fast CPU and good GPU any time soon.

MBPs are quite nice, but I personally have two gripes with them -

1) No end-user repairs (at least not easily). A friend of mine spilled water over her MBP's touchpad, which caused it to screw up. Last I checked, a replacement MBP touchpad was something like $70-90 on eBay. Compare this with the Thinkpad where a new keyboard/trackpoint is around $30 or so, and a new touchpad around the same. The manual provides intricate details on how to replace everything, and the PNs for all the various parts. It's also easy to replace the battery on them, compared with the MBP where you have to do all sorts of warranty-voiding hacks when your laptop's battery inevitably dies.

2) Maybe I haven't played around with all their fancy multitouch gestures, but I really don't like the touchpad. I find it completely impossible to drag-drop with their bizarre button design. I've been reliable informed that you can't right click if you're not running OS X because the right click is implemented in software. Also, it's particularly large, and I find it gets in my way when I type on one. YMMV.

[chongyixiong]

If computing power is not a deal-breaker, the older generation Core 2 Duos are just as powerful (if not, more powerful) than the current i3 processors.

I have a C2D P8600 and it has nothing short but snappy throughout, although at a higher TDP of 25W as compared to the newer's 18W I suppose?

Anyway, the Thinkpad X200 is just what you need, I got the X200 because I wanted to be able to swap out the 12.1" crappy TN panel with a Boe Hydis AFFS (IPS) panel. Now I got a really advanced mini powerhouse, with the additional snappiness of an Intel 80GB SSD.

Sweet.

Pics of the process as detailed here

[wap32]

2) Maybe I haven't played around with all their fancy multitouch gestures, but I really don't like the touchpad. I find it completely impossible to drag-drop with their bizarre button design. I've been reliable informed that you can't right click if you're not running OS X because the right click is implemented in software. Also, it's particularly large, and I find it gets in my way when I type on one. YMMV.

A few friends of mine have Macbook pros, so lately I've been getting more acquainted with them. I find the touchpad to be nice.
Drag-and-drop is a little more cumbersome that with a regular touchpad, but doable.
The multitouch gestures are useful, although a little gimmicky; I can easily configure similar functionality on linux with half the fuss.

All in all the hardware isn't bad (except the mirror-like screen) but I find that what gets in the way is OS X itself.

[J888www]

Anyway, the Thinkpad X200 is just what you need, I got the X200 because I wanted to be able to swap out the 12.1" crappy TN panel with a Boe Hydis AFFS (IPS) panel. Now I got a really advanced mini powerhouse, with the additional snappiness of an Intel 80GB SSD.

 I went along the same road with a T60p, I upgraded/exchanged everything possible even right down to replacing the little CMOS battery. Already posted somewhere on site so I won't repeat the details. So my preference is Thinkpad.

[ricercar]

abide. the announcement is mere days away.

[iMav]

abide. the announcement is mere days away.

I'm not making any decision till I see what is announced on wed.

[TexasFlood]

Just got a new T410.  Haven't really started using it yet but expect to like it given my long positive track record with Thinkpads.  Will soon see how reality lines up with my expectations.

[microsoft windows]

I'd recommend getting the laptop that runs Windows.

[iMav]

I'd recommend getting the laptop that runs Windows.

Uhhh, they can both run the nasty.

[muchadoaboutnothing]

1) No end-user repairs (at least not easily). A friend of mine spilled water over her MBP's touchpad, which caused it to screw up. Last I checked, a replacement MBP touchpad was something like $70-90 on eBay. Compare this with the Thinkpad where a new keyboard/trackpoint is around $30 or so, and a new touchpad around the same. The manual provides intricate details on how to replace everything, and the PNs for all the various parts. It's also easy to replace the battery on them, compared with the MBP where you have to do all sorts of warranty-voiding hacks when your laptop's battery inevitably dies.

I hate them for the same reason, but to be fair you can get repair parts + labor fairly cheap if you skip the genius bar and go to one of a few hundred authorized Mac repair dealers around the nation that are 3rd parties.

You wouldn't catch me using a Mac, but a repair that was over $1,000 at an Apple store was $200 at a 3rd party authorized tech when my friend had an issue.

Uhhh, they can both run the nasty.

Battery life and Windows drivers on Macs generally suck. And I hear this from good friends who are very pro-Apple.

They admit that even compared to non-Mac machines Macs make inferior computers when running Windows.

[EverythingIBM]

Uhhh, they can both run the nasty.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/compare/pc-vs-mac.aspx

I can't decide between a mac or a PC. What ever will I do?

It's funny how microsoft is adopting the "PC" moniker so much to almost a zealous extent. *Technically* there are no more "PCs" after IBM lost the market. It's just a throng of clone manufacturers trying to get a stranglehold.

[TexasFlood]

Uhhh, they can both run the nasty.

Well said...

[microsoft windows]

Uhhh, they can both run the nasty.

Hey! That site wasn't about Windows Vista or Windows 98!

[TexasFlood]

Uhhh, they can both run the nasty.

Well said...

Show Image

Hey! That site wasn't about Windows Vista or Windows 98!

Trivia points to anyone who knows what movie that image is from and "the nasty" relates to it.  Rajagra perhaps should know this one based on earlier posts, :wink:.

[TexasFlood]

Uhhh, they can both run the nasty.

Well said...

Show Image

Trivia points to anyone who knows what movie that image is from and "the nasty" relates to it.  Rajagra perhaps should know this one based on earlier posts, :wink:.

[keyboardlover]

Trivia points to anyone who knows what movie that image is from and "the nasty" relates to it.  Rajagra perhaps should know this one based on earlier posts, :wink:.

Yes...GOLF CLAP - "Men at Work" classic movie!

[TexasFlood]

Yes...GOLF CLAP - "Men at Work" classic movie!

3/4 credit! 1/2 for getting the movie right.  1/4 for the golf clap.  I didn't specifically ask about it but have to give you credit.  Only missing 1/4 for not specifically addressing "the nasty".  Well done though.

[keyboardlover]

3/4 credit! 1/2 for getting the movie right.  1/4 for the golf clap.  I didn't specifically ask about it but have to give you credit.  Only missing 1/4 for not specifically addressing "the nasty".  Well done though.

Sorry I was a kid when I saw it...let's see, was that when they cleaned out the garbage truck because it was so nasty?

[TexasFlood]

Sorry I was a kid when I saw it...let's see, was that when they cleaned out the garbage truck because it was so nasty?

Close enough for full credit.  Sheen stops the truck at the end of the route, turns to Estevez and says, "It's time to do the nasty."  Then, you see then in the back of the garbage truck, covering their faces, pushing all the slime and debris from the bottom of the bin while shouting "NASTY!", "NASTY!", "NASTY!".

[ch_123]

Battery life and Windows drivers on Macs generally suck. And I hear this from good friends who are very pro-Apple.

They admit that even compared to non-Mac machines Macs make inferior computers when running Windows.

I've heard opposite. In fact, the biggest Mac fanboy I know often runs Windows on his Mac Pro because the graphics drivers under Windows are better.

[mike]

1) No end-user repairs (at least not easily).

Having spent a bit of time digging around the insides of my own MBP this weekend, I'd say you're right. But perhaps it applies to a greater or lesser extent to all laptops; certainly once you reach a 'certain age', eyesight makes working on really small screws and connectors very tricky.

2) Maybe I haven't played around with all their fancy multitouch gestures, but I

I'm firmly convinced that touchpads are one of those things that you either like or dislike; I hate the damn things. Although having been forced to use this one periodically, it is possible to get more used to it

[vyshane]

2) Maybe I haven't played around with all their fancy multitouch gestures, but I really don't like the touchpad. I find it completely impossible to drag-drop with their bizarre button design. I've been reliable informed that you can't right click if you're not running OS X because the right click is implemented in software. Also, it's particularly large, and I find it gets in my way when I type on one. YMMV.

I'm not a fan of trackpads, but Apple's implementation is the best one I've used. It's actually usable enough that I don't get the urge to connect a mouse to the laptop. Precision is better using a mouse, but scrolling speed and accuracy is much better on the trackpad. Kinetic scrolling just feels natural. Think scrolling through the iPhone's address book. It's basically the same, but on the trackpad.

As for drag and drop, try to use an Apple trackpad the same way you'd use a normal trackpad. Click with your thumb, and drag using your middle or index finger. Works the same. Works better actually, since the trackpad is so big. You get to drag more before having to lift your finger and re centre.

[microsoft windows]

I've heard opposite. In fact, the biggest Mac fanboy I know often runs Windows on his Mac Pro because the graphics drivers under Windows are better.

That guy's pretty silly. Why get an overpriced Mac just to run Windows? It'd be a hell of a lot cheaper just to build your own PC that meets the same specifications.

[VentiLator]

if you use linux, go for the thinkpad, you'll be rewarded with good hardwaresupport.

afaik driver support on mac is so so since they use theire own biosversions etc.

but imo this is also a moral issue, i'm not sure if i want to support such restrictive, proprietary methods.
the hard- and software could both be the best on earth, it'd be still apple getting my money

[muchadoaboutnothing]

I've heard opposite. In fact, the biggest Mac fanboy I know often runs Windows on his Mac Pro because the graphics drivers under Windows are better.

Anecdotes galore. It's tough to say.

I have several friends who are Mac devout. One switched back to PC recently despite liking OS X better (he said Windows 7 was almost as good) due to hardware issues and the need to run Windows well. He went for a ThinkPad.

[ch_123]

That guy's pretty silly. Why get an overpriced Mac just to run Windows? It'd be a hell of a lot cheaper just to build your own PC that meets the same specifications.

With a Mac Pro? Not necessarily. I've looked into it. It's somewhat cheaper (if you consider the relative price difference as opposed to the absolute price difference) but the Mac Pro will still have some nice features that are nearly impossible to get on a self made PC (such as hot-swappable hard drives)

Nontheless, on the balance, the guy doesn't play a lot of games, so he spends most of his time in OS X anyway.

[didjamatic]

Thinkpad.  For my use it is more versatile, durable, customizable and depending on options, more powerful.  Some can debate those but even with those things aside, this seals the deal:



Trackpoint + Scissor > Touchpad + Chiclet

[timw4mail]

Thinkpad.  For my use it is more versatile, durable, customizable and depending on options, more powerful.  Some can debate those but even with those things aside, this seals the deal:

Show Image

Trackpoint + Scissor > Touchpad + Chiclet

I'd argue that the opposite is true. Besides, they are both scissor switches, and the one on the Macbook would be harder to snag and accidentally pull a key off the keyboard.

[ch_123]

and the one on the Macbook would be harder to snag and accidentally pull a key off the keyboard.

Is that a frequent occurrence for you?

[timw4mail]

Is that a frequent occurrence for you?

No, but I've seen missing keys on a lot of laptops.

[wap32]

With a Mac Pro? Not necessarily. I've looked into it. It's somewhat cheaper (if you consider the relative price difference as opposed to the absolute price difference) but the Mac Pro will still have some nice features that are nearly impossible to get on a self made PC (such as hot-swappable hard drives)

Nontheless, on the balance, the guy doesn't play a lot of games, so he spends most of his time in OS X anyway.

My PC is about 4 years old and has hot-swappable hard drives.
I though that was common on most motherboards nowadays.

[TexasFlood]

My PC is about 4 years old and has hot-swappable hard drives.
I though that was common on most motherboards nowadays.

I haven't seen any basic PCs that have hot swap drives.  Hot swap drive trays are readily available though and can be added if you have bays.

[timw4mail]

I haven't seen any basic PCs that have hot swap drives.  Hot swap drive trays are readily available though and can be added if you have bays.

SATA is hot-swappable :/

[ch_123]

My PC is about 4 years old and has hot-swappable hard drives.
I though that was common on most motherboards nowadays.

Do you have a case that facilitates this properly? With a SATA backplane?

[TexasFlood]

SATA is hot-swappable :/

Well what are devices like these for then?

[wap32]

I haven't seen any basic PCs that have hot swap drives.  Hot swap drive trays are readily available though and can be added if you have bays.

Yes, but the motherboard still needs to support hot-plugging.
In my case I don't have hot swap trays but I have on many occasions plugged/unplugged IDE or SATA devices while the PC was running.

SATA is hot-swappable :/

This I did not know. I thought that feature was controller/motherboard dependent.

[didjamatic]

Interesting, I thought hot-plug/hot-swap was part of the SATA spec

[wap32]

Do you have a case that facilitates this properly? With a SATA backplane?

Isn't this just a matter of buying a few drive trays? like this?

[ch_123]

Sure I guess, but by the time you buy a few of those, the price gap has narrowed further.

There's some other stuff, but unfortunately I can't think of it off the top of my head.

[TexasFlood]

I haven't seen any basic PCs that have hot swap drives.  Hot swap drive trays are readily available though and can be added if you have bays.

Yes, but the motherboard still needs to support hot-plugging.
In my case I don't have hot swap trays but I have on many occasions plugged/unplugged IDE or SATA devices while the PC was running.

Like an AHCI option in the BIOS SATA settings?

SATA is hot-swappable :/

This I did not know. I thought that feature was controller/motherboard dependent.

I thought you needed a tray such as this one.

[wap32]

Sure I guess, but by the time you buy a few of those, the price gap has narrowed further.

There's some other stuff, but unfortunately I can't think of it off the top of my head.

Yeah, that's true. But one could argue that the Mac Pro doesn't exactly "facilitate access" either, you sill have to open the case to access the drives =)
Either way, while it can be useful now and then, I don't see hot-swapping as being that important as to be the deal maker/breaker when choosing mac vs. pc.

Like an AHCI option in the BIOS SATA settings?

I thought you needed a tray such as this one.

You do if you want easy access, but assuming the motherboard/controller copes with it, you can just plug/unplug the devices with the PC running.

[TexasFlood]

Interesting, I thought hot-plug/hot-swap was part of the SATA spec

I think you're right.  I've read that it includes considerations such as the ground pins are longer than the others so the ground pins connect first and disconnect last avoiding a floating ground.  I think the key is that you have drivers installed which disable or flush cache and power the drive down before removing it.  On a Windows system it should show up in the tray that can be "safely removed" just like a usb flash drive.  I guess a hot swap tray or "sled" isn't required, but something like this would sure make things a lot more convenient.

[ch_123]

Yeah, that's true. But one could argue that the Mac Pro doesn't exactly "facilitate access" either, you sill have to open the case to access the drives =)

Opening the side of the case is pretty easy, I wouldnt really consider it effort at all.

I don't see hot-swapping as being that important as to be the deal maker/breaker when choosing mac vs. pc.

Well, when you get into the rarefied heights of €3,000 computers, I want bang for my figurative (and literal) buck...

At the hotswap thing - while SATA can support it, you really wouldnt want to yank out the standard connectors while the system was on, it would not end well for the hard drive, the computer, and probably your health as well...

[wap32]

Opening the side of the case is pretty easy, I wouldnt really consider it effort at all.

I was thinking more along the lines that if you do hot-swap frequently, opening/closing the case, or keeping the case constantly open isn't ideal. Not exactly what you'd want from a €3000 computer.

Well, when you get into the rarefied heights of €3,000 computers, I want bang for my figurative (and literal) buck...

At the hotswap thing - while SATA can support it, you really wouldnt want to yank out the standard connectors while the system was on, it would not end well for the hard drive, the computer, and probably your health as well...

I thought this was more or less the definition of hot-plugging.

Although I wouldn't recommend yanking, if you double check everything is unmounted and just unplug the cables from the drive, you shouldn't have anything to fear.
After all, thats the same thing that happens when you pull a regular hot-swap tray, except its on a tray...

[EverythingIBM]

I'd argue that the opposite is true. Besides, they are both scissor switches, and the one on the Macbook would be harder to snag and accidentally pull a key off the keyboard.

lol?

How is the opposite true when the thinkpad has more options? It has a trackpoint AND a touchpad... with so many extra buttons that can be assigned to things such as ctrl+z. You *cannot* do that on a macbook as the design philosophy of Apple is watered-down ultra simplistic stuff with NO options or customization; reducing to simplicity even when it gets in the way of production and use (such as lacking context buttons: I laughed at when the designers of Myst had to keep hitting Ctrl to right click, suckers).

Did you ever try pulling off a thinkpad key? I would smash my thinkpad's keyboard [T60p] and swipe it with clothes vigorously to clean it, NONE of the keys came off: my friend would laugh at me and say "you can only do that with a thinkpad." The trackpoint did, but that's expected. They also don't get "snagged" or anything like that. Besides, how would you snag a keyboard in a recess? That's like saying I might snag one of my model M keys...

The macbook keyboards on the other hand... they are silver plastic pieces of junk made for aesthetics and not *practical use*. My T60p's keyboard felt like a *decent* desktop one, I haven't had such a good keyboard on a laptop before: and apparently never will again because lenovo is adopting Apple's stupid chiclet keys (which, both apple and lenovo should have learned from the PCjr that chiclet is not the way to go).

I just find it ludicrous that anyone would defend a macbook keyboard, they're horrible! I'd rather use a C64 keyboard... and that's saying something. At least the key caps are actual key caps.

[microsoft windows]

The keytops on the Apple keyboards today (the Chiclet kind) are also much closer together than those of conventional keyboards, causing me to make a lot of type-O's. Not to mention lots of finger pain from all that hard bottoming out.

[NamelessPFG]

If it was my choice: ThinkPad. X41t, X60t, X61t, X200t, X201t, W700(ds), or W701(ds) specifically.

The only thing I'm pissed about is that the X201t, for all it does right, still has the usual issue of packing a decently-fast CPU (Core i7 at 2.0 GHz or so at the top end, IIRC), but hobbling it with integrated Intel graphics. Can't I get a mid-range mobile NVIDIA GPU in there for once, preferably in an MXM slot?

Also, I generally hate trackpads. Apple 'Books since 2005 (when they started putting two-finger scroll on the last PowerBook and iBook G4s) are the exception since brushing my palms against the corners doesn't do anything and the two-finger scroll is really nice to use in OS X, but everywhere else, I really wish I had a TrackPoint. (Now if they made it so that holding down the Fn key made the TrackPoint scroll around...)

[ch_123]

I agree with EIBM on this one. I've seen keys falling off scissor switches, but usually it's the result of either the keyboard being of low quality, or end user stupidity. Often a combination of both.

The keytops on the Apple keyboards today (the Chiclet kind) are also much closer together than those of conventional keyboards,

Look quite separated from where I'm sitting.

[microsoft windows]

I'm talking about the surface your finger hits the key on. On a conventional keyboard, like the IBM Model M, the tops of the keys are more farther apart than the Apple. I've found with my experience with the "Chiclet" keyboards is I make a lot more type-O's with them.

[Brian8bit]

So you're saying you make mistakes typing on notebook keyboards because they're smaller than standard keyboard layouts? Usually somewhere in the mid to high 90s percentage range, dropping to the high 70s and low 80s on netbooks. Perfectly understandable.

[ch_123]

I did a typing test one one of those Apple chiclet keyboards, and was able to maintain 100WPM.

A poor workman always blames his tools, or so they say.

[zefrer]

Get the lenovo surely. Great hardware at competitive price. No new notebooks from apple today. New macbook airs/netbooks. They don't like to call it that.

[microsoft windows]

I did a typing test one one of those Apple chiclet keyboards, and was able to maintain 100WPM.

A poor workman always blames his tools, or so they say.

I'm not the best typer on the planet, but I'm a lot better on a conventional keyboard than one of those Chiclet things.

[keyboardlover]

I did a typing test one one of those Apple chiclet keyboards, and was able to maintain 100WPM.

[EverythingIBM]

I don't mind my HP "Island" keys. 65g so they are lighter than most.  My son hates em but he's a buckling spring Unicomp snob.  Notice the reversed priority of the FCN keys - that kinda sucks.

Show Image

Those arrow keys are horrible...

Now THIS is a proper laptop keyboard:

[TexasFlood]

Show Image

The golf clap returns, makes me smile...

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[TexasFlood]

Keyboardlover, the golf clap makes me smile...

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[Findecanor]

The Thinkpad series is the best series of laptops ever made. If I could choose between Thinkpad and any other laptop, I would choose Thinkpad.

I noticed also that the layout is the same as on the Dell, except for the Fn and Ctrl keys in the bottom left corner ... but that is no problem for those who map Caps Lock to Ctrl, as I do.

[zefrer]

EverythingIBM that looks like a T40/T41? I have a T40, one of the last models before IBM sold the thinkpad rage. Built like a friggin rock man, 7 years old and hasn't let me down once.

[instantkamera]

L

o

l

[instantkamera]

have to admit, PC laptop makers need to get their **** together. design IS important.

[elservo]

Design is absolutely vital.  I didn't really think about that until I got a Macbook.  Now, I can't believe I muddled through with Dell laptops for so many years before.  

The Macbook Air is pricey, but it's really solid.  I've seen a bunch of unboxing just to watch for any flex in the aluminum case when it's opened, and I can't see any odd movement, not even in the tiny hinges they're using.  

Thinkpads are their own breed, and the build seems like it's good quality.  It would be the only PC laptop that I'd buy, love that velvety trackpad that the Thinkpads have.

[D-EJ915]

The fact that it comes with a drive which has the preload on it is pretty nice.

[instantkamera]

Design is absolutely vital.  I didn't really think about that until I got a Macbook.  Now, I can't believe I muddled through with Dell laptops for so many years before.  

The Macbook Air is pricey, but it's really solid.  I've seen a bunch of unboxing just to watch for any flex in the aluminum case when it's opened, and I can't see any odd movement, not even in the tiny hinges they're using.  

Thinkpads are their own breed, and the build seems like it's good quality.  It would be the only PC laptop that I'd buy, love that velvety trackpad that the Thinkpads have.

yeah I have a love/hate relationship with apple. I owned a macbook and some other products and loved their simple and FUNCTIONAL designs, but politically it's just a no-go for me.

PC OEMS are ****ing clueless, the analogy I read somewhere recently was that they are "NASCAR designs" ... so ****ing tacky and ghetto. I think HP has the nicest line going ATM, and their **** is a 100% rip of apple designs.

I build my own desktops partly for this reason.

[muchadoaboutnothing]

The problem is that (in my opinion) Apple will often pick aesthetics over functionality (ventilation quality, etc.).

PC form and finish has improved massively over the past few years. Say what you want about Macs, but my Thinkpad and Dell Latitude (E-Series, not D-series) both feel well made.

[instantkamera]

I am pretty impressed with the fit and finish on my $500 HP 210HD netbook.  

I can live without the whole silver thing.

Show Image

basically the improved version of my 1035NR ... I wish I had waited before jumping on the netbook bandwagon. Styling is the same but the improvements (touchpad, keyboard, sata) would have been really nice.

[verbel]

I have an older t60 thinkpad and a 13' macbook. Over all I much prefer the thinkpad. I know allot of people don't like the boxy look of the thinkpads but I love it. OSX is ok, but I think I prefer Windows 7 to it.

[ch_123]

PC OEMS are ****ing clueless, the analogy I read somewhere recently was that they are "NASCAR designs" ... so ****ing tacky and ghetto. I think HP has the nicest line going ATM, and their **** is a 100% rip of apple designs.

HP makes nice looking PCs? Sir, please do not me throw up in your face...

[Superfluous Parentheses]

I have an older t60 thinkpad and a 13' macbook. Over all I much prefer the thinkpad. I know allot of people don't like the boxy look of the thinkpads but I love it. OSX is ok, but I think I prefer Windows 7 to it.

I think the pictures don't do the newer Thinkpads justice. Especially the X201 series looks amazing in real life. I suspect the matte black case just doesn't photograph that well.

[verbel]

I really want to get one of the new ones, but right now I cannot justify as there is really no need. I'm not sure how long I will be able to fight the urge though.

[instantkamera]

HP makes nice looking PCs? Sir, please do not me throw up in your face...

we are talking about laptops, specifically.

http://notebooks.com/2009/09/15/hp-envy-13-photos-and-specs/

[ch_123]

Whenever my T61 dies off, I'll be getting me an X201T, or whatever the equivalent is by then.

[zefrer]

The problem is that (in my opinion) Apple will often pick aesthetics over functionality (ventilation quality, etc.).

PC form and finish has improved massively over the past few years. Say what you want about Macs, but my Thinkpad and Dell Latitude (E-Series, not D-series) both feel well made.

This. FYI all macbook air models released so far have insufficient cooling. They get *very* hot and the cpu throttles down its clock speed to compensate.

Design is great and all but _the_ most important thing is function. If it can't function properly any great design is meaningless unless you just want it to sit on your coffee table and look nice.

Meanwhile many other companies offer aluminum laptops.

[ch_123]

we are talking about laptops, specifically.

http://notebooks.com/2009/09/15/hp-envy-13-photos-and-specs/

HP? Looks more like 'iP' to me...

[instantkamera]

I think HP has the nicest line going ATM, and their **** is a 100% rip of apple designs.

HP? Looks more like 'iP' to me...

exactly! now you get it...

[mike]

This. FYI all macbook air models released so far have insufficient cooling. They get *very* hot and the cpu throttles down its clock speed to compensate.

I hadn't heard that myself, and a colleague (management type) uses one as his main machine.

Of course the main function of any of the Air's is portability; if you're driving any component hard for any length of time, then you've got the wrong machine.

[ch_123]

On the flip end of the scale, I have to replace the fan in my Thinkpad. It's actually still working, but the bearings are failing and it sounds like a chainsaw when the system is under load for a long time.

Oh well, at least a new Thinkpad fan is $15 off eBay, and can be installed without having to take an angle grinder to the laptop and raping the warranty in a dozen ways...

[wap32]

On the flip end of the scale, I have to replace the fan in my Thinkpad. It's actually still working, but the bearings are failing and it sounds like a chainsaw when the system is under load for a long time.

Oh well, at least a new Thinkpad fan is $15 off eBay, and can be installed without having to take an angle grinder to the laptop and raping the warranty in a dozen ways...

Had the same problem on my T61 about 6 months ago, whenever the fan spun up, it made a racket.
Opened the fan, put a little lithium-based grease and since then it has been silent.

[ch_123]

I had that suggested to me, and I might actually try it. That said, I got the fan cheap, and it's a good idea to have a spare one in case the thing really does fail.

[MissileMike]

I love the design of the mbp, but as a programmer, the lack of home/end/pgup/pgdn keys drives me crazy.  I am selling my mbp 17" this week on ebay.

[Cirno]

Using x201 (i5 520m, 3gig, changed hdd to 160gb intel ssd) for 3 months and really disappointed with lenovo assembly quality. Next time will buy used X61 and mod it with 1400x900 screen :\

[ch_123]

X61 is also Lenovo

[microsoft windows]

I just use whatever old laptop I feel like. Out of all my laptops, my favotite's my Dell Inspiron 8500, with a P4 and 1GB of RAM and XP Professional.

[Cirno]

X61 is also Lenovo

uhm, x60 then ^^'

[ch_123]

Also Lenovo.

Hint: You'd have to go back to the X42

[wap32]

uhm, x60 then ^^'

I believe the X60 is also Lenovo, despite the IBM stickers (I could be wrong tho).

EDIT: ch_123 beat me to it...

[instantkamera]

I love the design of the mbp, but as a programmer, the lack of home/end/pgup/pgdn keys drives me crazy.  I am selling my mbp 17" this week on ebay.

arggg tell me about it... I used an apple wireless BTKB on my old macbook, spent most of my days in term using vim etc... ****, I wanted to kill myself.

[Cirno]

Also Lenovo.

Hint: You'd have to go back to the X42

Oh noes. Same with t6x? I need amd64 && may be vt-d.

[ch_123]

Yep. My T61 is a Lenovo machine.

It's hard to know. The IBM ones were definitely more classy and solid, but the Lenovo ones are still better built than most crap on the market.

[J888www]

The final tiny weeny upgrade/replacement for my laptop was an Aluminium Logo, as the standard plastic logos seems too common, can always revert back to the colourful option when my whim changes.

Rather than using Grease, it was suggested that a drop of Machine Oil (Singer Sewing machine lub) to be applied to the spindle part of the Heatsink Fan.

[vyshane]

arggg tell me about it... I used an apple wireless BTKB on my old macbook, spent most of my days in term using vim etc... ****, I wanted to kill myself.

You need home, end, page up and page down keys in Vim? What on earth for?

[instantkamera]

You need home, end, page up and page down keys in Vim? What on earth for?

moving around in insert mode? I hate having to leave modes to move around, so I have become quite accustomed to using the insert cluster and even the arrow keys. Im also a big fan of shft-ins to paste (things im not using visual block/line in the current document to copy) and I use ins to toggle insert/replace (there is in insert key on the apple compact keyboard either). I use them often enough in less/etc and on the command line in general that they are missed.

[Cirno]

moving around in insert mode?

[instantkamera]

Show Image

lol
no thanks. Next thing you know I'll be browsing the web like RMS:

For personal reasons, I do not browse the web from my computer.  (I
also have not net connection much of the time.)  To look at page I
send mail to a demon which runs wget and mails the page back to me.
It is very efficient use of my time, but it is slow in real time.

[vyshane]

moving around in insert mode? I hate having to leave modes to move around, so I have become quite accustomed to using the insert cluster and even the arrow keys. Im also a big fan of shft-ins to paste (things im not using visual block/line in the current document to copy) and I use ins to toggle insert/replace (there is in insert key on the apple compact keyboard either). I use them often enough in less/etc and on the command line in general that they are missed.

In Vim you really want to move around in normal mode. Moving around in insert mode is very inefficient. If you learn the correct way to move around in Vim, you'll be glad to know that bash has a Vi mode (set -o vi). Tools like less also support some Vi shortcuts for search and moving around.

As for shift+insert vs. ctrl+v, vs. command+v; end vs. command+right, etc., each platform have their own way of doing things. It's easier to work with the tools rather than expect them to all behave in the same way.

[instantkamera]

In Vim you really want to move around in normal mode.

No, I want to move around in the mode of my choice, thanks.

Moving around in insert mode is very inefficient.

Sometimes. Likewise with changing modes to move around.

 If you learn the correct way to move around in Vim, you'll be glad to know that bash has a Vi mode (set -o vi). Tools like less also support some Vi shortcuts for search and moving around.

The "correct" way is whatever way works for the user. And being a DAILY vim user for the past several years, I can happily say that I don't need input from a keyboard forum on that. I use the "proper" vim navigation keys when I need to move around more precisely, but more often I use searches for specific text to get precisely where I want to be. Likewise with less etc (i.e. I don't read a  man page by paging up/down and trying to skim for the specific thing Im looking for.)
Basically, _I_ like that cluster, and would like it to be there when _I_ need it.

As for shift+insert vs. ctrl+v, vs. command+v; end vs. command+right, etc., each platform have their own way of doing things. It's easier to work with the tools rather than expect them to all behave in the same way.

Which is why I no longer own a Mac...

[keyboardlover]

I've found that no matter what your editor of choice, developers use home, end, delete (and to a lesser extent insert) pretty religiously. That's why I prefer the standard ANSI layout, as it saves me a lot of time.

[zefrer]

No! Let's start an emacs vs vi war!

(joking.. please don't)

[vyshane]

No! Let's start an emacs vs vi war!

(joking.. please don't)

No, what we have here is a Vim user who's using Vim like he's using Emacs! How dare he! Lynch him! I kid, I kid.

Okay, I'll go hide in a corner now. Sorry for going off topic, causing aggravation, etc.

[instantkamera]

No, what we have here is a Vim user who's using Vim like he's using Emacs! How dare he!

I wouldn't know, I have never used Emacs.

[iMav]

Well, I just picked up a maxed out 11.6" Macbook Air (1.6GHz C2D, 4GB ram, 128GB flash storage)

Definitely the snappiest Mac I've ever used (of course, this is the first one I've had with solid state storage).  I'll post pics and impressions later.  Glad to have a small, mobile laptop again.

[vyshane]

Well, I just picked up a maxed out 11.6" Macbook Air (1.6GHz C2D, 4GB ram, 128GB flash storage)

Definitely the snappiest Mac I've ever used (of course, this is the first one I've had with solid state storage).  I'll post pics and impressions later.  Glad to have a small, mobile laptop again.

Congrats I tend to favour portability over grunt when it comes to notebooks. I loved my 12" PowerBook, and am seriously considering the new MBAs right now. I'm torn between the portability of the 11" and the screen real estate of the 13".

[iMav]

Congrats I tend to favour portability over grunt when it comes to notebooks. I loved my 12" PowerBook, and am seriously considering the new MBAs right now. I'm torn between the portability of the 11" and the screen real estate of the 13".

I'm more about form factor then weight/"thinness".  I could never buy a 13.3" macbook air because I can get more grunt for the same form factor with a standard macbook.

[vyshane]

I'm more about form factor then weight/"thinness".  I could never buy a 13.3" macbook air because I can get more grunt for the same form factor with a standard macbook.

From what I've been reading, there's not much performance difference between the current 13" MBP and 13" MBA. The gap isn't as significant as it was with the last gen MBA. I wouldn't get the 13" MBP because it has a C2D. I would either get the MBA or make the jump to the 15" MBP for the i5 or i7. I used to have the aluminium unibody MacBook with a C2D.

[iMav]

From what I've been reading, there's not much performance difference between the current 13" MBP and 13" MBA. The gap isn't as significant as it was with the last gen MBA. I wouldn't get the 13" MBP because it has a C2D. I would either get the MBA or make the jump to the 15" MBP for the i5 or i7. I used to have the aluminium unibody MacBook with a C2D.

I had the al. Macbook (in fact, my wife has it now).  I replaced it with a al. MBP so that I could stuff it with 8GB of ram.

I now have an i7 Dell laptop with 8GB of ram, SSD, and a secondary hdd in the optical bay to hold all my VM's.  (work laptop)  The MBP used to be my portable VM lab before getting the new work laptop.

I agree about not wanting to get another Core2duo in a machine that really should have the i-series CPUs by now.  It's one of the reasons I went with an ultra-portable MBA.  I can justify a C2D in this machine.  Not in a MB or MBP today.