Author Topic: what the hell is wrong with the french?  (Read 35350 times)

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Offline wellington1869

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #50 on: Fri, 22 October 2010, 12:01:33 »
Quote from: ripster;237350
Specifically raising retirement from 60 to 62.

BFD.


yea meanwhile in the US some folks are actually fighting for the right to work until 70 (up from 65).  What a difference between the two cultures.

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Offline instantkamera

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #51 on: Fri, 22 October 2010, 12:16:49 »
Quote from: wellington1869;237361
yea meanwhile in the US some folks are actually fighting for the right to work until 70 (up from 65).  What a difference between the two cultures.


You can only work till you're 65 in the US? Chimera better get off his ass then (or move to Japan).
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Offline vils

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #52 on: Fri, 22 October 2010, 14:06:16 »
After living in France for a year or so I'm really tired of their "strikes". Put up a sign with the text "greve" and get the day off. F*ck the lazy french. Despite all this I'm cooking Boeuf Bourguignon and drinking french wine tonight.
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Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #53 on: Fri, 22 October 2010, 14:29:55 »
Quote from: Senor_Cartmenez;237345
phew, fell into some kind of rant towards the end there ;)


Towards the end?!?

Offline quadibloc

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #54 on: Sat, 23 October 2010, 13:04:26 »
And, of course, on years when they don't riot, the youth of France get nice free outdoor concerts...


Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #55 on: Sat, 23 October 2010, 13:05:53 »
And, of course, on years when they don't riot, the youth of France get nice free outdoor concerts...


Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #56 on: Sat, 23 October 2010, 16:45:01 »
Quote from: instantkamera;237368
You can only work till you're 65 in the US? Chimera better get off his ass then (or move to Japan).


You can work later than 65. There's some guy here who's 104 and still working.
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Offline instantkamera

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« Reply #57 on: Sat, 23 October 2010, 17:53:58 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;237740
You can work later than 65. There's some guy here who's 104 and still working.


let me guess, his name is MW Sr. and he prefers to use windows 95 themed in "high contrast".
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Offline wellington1869

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #58 on: Sat, 23 October 2010, 20:12:30 »
Quote from: ripster;237703
French Modern Art Joke time.
Show Image


thats cute. I'd like a poster of that actually. Or to put it on a t-shirt at cafe press.

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Offline instantkamera

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #59 on: Sat, 23 October 2010, 20:50:17 »
Quote from: wellington1869;237790
thats cute. I'd like a poster of that actually. Or to put it on a t-shirt at cafe press.


****ing hipster.
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Offline Lanx

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #60 on: Sat, 23 October 2010, 23:18:55 »
i just saw sicko again today and one of the points made was that the french government are afraid of the ppl, rather than the ppl afraid of the gov't as a contract from french to us. Seems the french just make a living at protesting and getting their way, while American's protest to get a point across.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #61 on: Sun, 24 October 2010, 03:48:16 »
Government being afraid of the people... Isn't that how democracy is meant to work?
« Last Edit: Sun, 24 October 2010, 04:06:24 by ch_123 »

Offline keyboardlover

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #62 on: Sun, 24 October 2010, 07:58:23 »
Quote from: ch_123
Government being afraid of the people... Isn't that how democracy is meant to work?


...no.

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #63 on: Sun, 24 October 2010, 10:09:00 »
Quote from: ch_123;237877
Government being afraid of the people... Isn't that how democracy is meant to work?
The government should be afraid of the voters. The voters should fear no man - and thus, neither the voters, nor the government which is their instrument, should fear rioters.

This, of course, assumes the rioters are unrepresentative of the majority.

Offline Senor_Cartmenez

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #64 on: Mon, 25 October 2010, 05:43:10 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;237900
...no.


.... yes

A government is nothing but an instrument, put in place to act on behalf and in the best interest of the people that made them their instrument.

Governments all too often forget that, thinking that by rationalizing that due to the sheer size of populations that the governments have to manage, it is impossible to please everyone. So the prioritize and please those that help them the most to keep their power (industrial lobbyists) while neglecting those they are supposed to protect and serve (the people).

Fact is the people don't need the government, there are alternatives. The government however needs its people or its powerless.

The French like to remind their government of this fact while many other people tend to kick back and relax because they are so ****ing fat and well that they just say "BFD", there is Popstars on tonight, can't miss that on my big ass Plasma TV. The government will sort it out somehow.

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #65 on: Mon, 25 October 2010, 06:46:58 »
I was referring specifically to democracy, which is put in place by and for the people with the intention of benefitting the people's best interests. It's not "afraid" of the people; it simply adjusts to their wants and needs based on elections and voting.

Offline Senor_Cartmenez

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« Reply #66 on: Mon, 25 October 2010, 10:32:26 »
The word democracy as oh so many modern terms has its origin in the Greek language. It comes from the words demos and krato. They more or less mean "the people" and "hold" what is meant is that they hold the political power, that's why it is often translated as "rule" instead of "hold".  ***

The meaning of democracy is thus that the people hold the power. NOT THE GOVERNMENT. The modern democracy has developed based on this idea but it was found that it is too difficult, due to size, to actually have every person in a population have a say in political affairs. Back in ancient Greece, that was more feasible as the city states were rather tiny compared to today's situations.
The result then was the indirect democracy which we have in all of western society today: We elect representatives, who act on our behalf.

Those representatives (i.e. politicians) are nothing but our voices. They are not to have any own agendas, any own reasons, any own wishes, wants, desires or ideas. They are just there to act on our behalf the best they can.
Now it doesn't take a smart man to realize that this is extremely idealistic and unrealistic but the way the system was devised originally was one that put enough pressure on the politicians so they wouldn't go ahead and follow their own interests, at least not primarily. If they went too far off course and didn't actually act in the interest of the people who elected them, they would loose all the power that was previously vested in them and would be replaced.

This is how modern democracy continued to be a democracy. Even though the ship was not steered by the people themselves, they did hold the power to decide who steers the ship.

And this political power that we the people hold, we ALWAYS hold, not only every 4 years! If everything goes normal, we vote every 4 years. If the people we elected steer the ship maybe not perfectly, but well enough so we all can live with it, we vote every 4 years. But if they mess up too much, then they can be replaced any time, not only after 4 years. If need be, they can even be replaced by force, this decision is not up to them, it is up to the people, because they are supposed to hold the power.
Therefore the statement is absolutely correct that governments have to fear the people, not the other way around. It might be wise to watch V for Vendetta. It explains this particular topic quite well in a modern, understandable setting.
If the government messes up badly during it's 4 years of power, then it should not expect to be able to just continue business as usual. It should expect to loose its power. This should serve as a motivator to not mess up and always act in the best interest of the people. Another motivator (and here enter the French) should be that if they not only mess up but clearly betray, harm and sacrifice the people they were elected to represent, then they should fear the punishment by those who elected them. Otherwise you can enter office saying "ok, I just make my dealz with that lobbiez, 4 yrs iz more than enuff timez to get filthy rich, afterwards they can have their political power back".
You won't do that if the people show you that they are fully capable of getting that old rusty guillotine out of the basement.

But this is exactly what politicians tend to forget these days. And they have to be reminded of it once in a while.

The French think the time to remind them who actually wears the pants in this relationship is now. I for one agree.

I disagree on how they remind them, yet I never had to fight for anything in my life. But I am certainly glad someone is doing it. Because if I look at myself in the mirror and look around myself, I only see a bunch of fed, warm and fuzzy pussies that have more or less nothing to worry about (in terms of basic human needs) and thus won#t lift their ass up the couch.


So yeah, I said it. We need the French and should all be thankful for their rioting.


*** on a sidenote: In modern Greek, the government is often referred to as the "kratos" which would mean "the one that holds the power", meant is of course the political power. This quite nicely shows how the thinking of the people in modern democracies has changed. In the US, you call your president the most powerful man in the world. In Greece they call the government "the one that holds the power". Both are just wrong.
Neither one holds ****, they have no power. They are only allowed to weild OUR power under OUR close supervision. The only thing lacking these days is that supervision, that many people *looks up* tend to forgive we have the OBLIGATION to carry out.
But both terms damn well describe the reality of modern democracy...
« Last Edit: Mon, 25 October 2010, 10:44:24 by Senor_Cartmenez »

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #67 on: Mon, 25 October 2010, 11:57:14 »
ok now i'm 3 cartman posts behind... gotta catch up...

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Offline keyboardlover

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #68 on: Mon, 25 October 2010, 11:58:34 »
Quote from: wellington1869;238437
ok now i'm 3 cartman posts behind... Gotta catch up...


tl;dr

:D

Offline wellington1869

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #69 on: Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:02:12 »
i'll say this, rioting is not 'democracy' nor democratic speech... if my govt doesnt protect me against rioters i'd consider my govt to have failed.

democracy isnt anarchy.  its a discipline and a concept and a system, which means it has rules.  Like most worthwhile things in life. Even liberal ideas have rules and require enforcement.
« Last Edit: Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:04:59 by wellington1869 »

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Offline ch_123

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #70 on: Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:03:38 »
And what exactly do you do if the government doesn't listen?

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #71 on: Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:06:34 »
Quote from: ch_123;238446
And what exactly do you do if the government doesn't listen?


Speak louder.


Offline wellington1869

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #72 on: Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:08:53 »
Quote from: ch_123;238446
And what exactly do you do if the government doesn't listen?


a) vote people out
b) civil disobedience
c) any kind of non-violent political protest (marches, sit-ins, etc). Anything but rioting.
 
To name a few obvious alternatives.

Now here the argument proceeds in a fairly predictable way, right? It involves you suggesting an extreme situation of some kind (to wit: what about against hitler!!!). Which means you are equating the current situation in france, which is what we're talking about, with hitler's germany.

And of course, thats beyond absurd, but it would require that kind of reduction on your part.  Yes, in very extreme situations, even a gandhi wouldnt survive against hitler (any more than the dalai lama is going to win against the maoist chinese).  And yes in those situations armed struggle may be necessary.  But for our discussion here thats a hypothetical - we're talking about contemporary france -- and I challenge you to equate it to a brutal dictatorship on those lines.

If you cant, then yes, these rioters are simply criminals and ought to be squished.  

In situations like this in france, its not a question of 'govt listening' - its a question of these rioters not listening to everyone else in their society and using the established and protected venues for democratic dialogue - like everyone else is doing except them.
« Last Edit: Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:12:46 by wellington1869 »

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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #73 on: Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:11:37 »
Civil disobedience? Would that be like... I dunno... blockading oil refineries?

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #74 on: Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:13:34 »
Quote from: instantkamera;237800
****ing hipster.


hahahaha ;) I guess so ;)
I've already uploaded the pic to cafe press :P

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #75 on: Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:16:09 »
Quote from: ch_123;238456
Civil disobedience? Would that be like... I dunno... blockading oil refineries?


a) thats not all they did, they rioted. For that they should be squished.

b) Even without rioting, Nope. Targeting oil refineries makes no sense on so many levels; first off that would hurt the entire nation in a crucial time. It shows if anything that the rioters dont give a **** about France.  There are much more intelligent ways to do civil disobedience that targets the govt and insists on being heard without causing grevious harm. How about a march on the govt buildings? How about even a sit-in in a govt office? None of that interferes radically with the national economy on the level that these acts (shutting down airports?! thats targeting civilians not govt; shutting down oil refineries? same thing. Destroying stores? same thing).

its also just stupid.  They're not going to get the public on their side by targeting the public.

These rioters are both stupid and violent, and thats who you're trying to defend.

And for what? To defend some distant abstract concept that when faced with hitler you have to fight back? Like the french resistance in wwii? Great wonderful and storied liberal concept, such a part of our liberal romance. Yes - and in this context, utterly inappropriate.  We liberals have a hell of a time with context and perspective, it is our greatest downfall as a political force.
« Last Edit: Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:19:44 by wellington1869 »

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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #76 on: Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:23:06 »
Damn right. Blockading oil refineries is about as stupid as throwing tea off a boat.

God knows I'd be pissed if someone inflicted grievous harm on my tea.

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #77 on: Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:24:40 »
All you need to do is look at a French keyboard layout, and you'll immediately understand why they're so angry.

Quote from: ch_123
Damn right. Blockading oil refineries is about as stupid as throwing tea off a boat.


Stupid? I think you need to re-read your history books son.
Quote
At the very least, the Boston Tea Party and the reaction that followed served to rally support for revolutionaries in the thirteen colonies who were eventually successful in their fight for independence.
« Last Edit: Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:32:29 by keyboardlover »

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #78 on: Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:27:32 »
Quote from: ch_123;238467
Damn right. Blockading oil refineries is about as stupid as throwing tea off a boat.

God knows I'd be pissed if someone inflicted grievous harm on my tea.


actually throwing tea off a boat was directly aimed at the british govt which collected a monopoly tax on that tea. There's kind of a big difference between disrupting someone's access to tea, vs disrupting entire nation's energy source.
if you dont see that difference, again i suggest this is precisely we liberal's greatest downfall.

You're also, as i predicted, making a comparison with politics and methods from 1770s, under a colonial regime (us was not a democracy yet), that is, to some extreme situation plucked out of context and out of history, as if that act justifies this one today in france.  
again: its those kinds of reductions that is our greatest downfall as liberals.  We cant seem to make our arguments without resorting to extreme reductions (and totally false analogies) like that.
« Last Edit: Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:30:12 by wellington1869 »

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Offline kriminal

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« Reply #79 on: Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:34:23 »
He also believes the strikes will end within the next two weeks. "We will see this fury extinguishing itself within the next 10 days or two weeks when we have vacations."


i chuckled at that statement..
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #80 on: Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:42:06 »
Quote from: wellington1869;238470
You're also, as i predicted, making a comparison with politics and methods from 1770s, under a colonial regime (us was not a democracy yet)


RELATIVISM!

*runs, flailing arms*

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #81 on: Mon, 25 October 2010, 14:11:53 »
Quote from: ch_123;238482
RELATIVISM!

*runs, flailing arms*


lol, i think we've had that discussion already. Its not relativism to compare apples to apples. Its the opposite of relativism.

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Offline pikapika

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« Reply #82 on: Tue, 26 October 2010, 04:22:47 »
Quote from: wellington1869;236867
true, tho i think its only the french who take such pride in it ;) Among western democracies anyway.

I hope Sarkozy brings the hammer down on them. He's promised to do just that. I'll be rooting for him in this instance even if I wouldnt have voted for him.


well i'm french, and the riots are not only about pensions, ti also reveals how people react to sarkozy's politics. people are quite upset by the way he leads france : only help the riches (and all his friends), make the poor pay, have racist ministers and xenophobic policies.
he promised wealth and we only get more poverty, more unemployement, less security
that why people are demonstrating, and btw there are almost no riots. it's mostly medias that like to show hot images and never investigate in real.
it's also a great concern about journalism, in france, but also in many countries : no work, no investigation, just copy some news, show some shocking images and be cool with those who pay ads

Offline Senor_Cartmenez

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« Reply #83 on: Tue, 26 October 2010, 08:34:17 »
Quote from: pikapika;238785
well i'm french, and the riots are not only about pensions, ti also reveals how people react to sarkozy's politics. people are quite upset by the way he leads france : only help the riches (and all his friends), make the poor pay, have racist ministers and xenophobic policies.
he promised wealth and we only get more poverty, more unemployement, less security
that why people are demonstrating, and btw there are almost no riots. it's mostly medias that like to show hot images and never investigate in real.
it's also a great concern about journalism, in france, but also in many countries : no work, no investigation, just copy some news, show some shocking images and be cool with those who pay ads


Damn straight.

Also, I commend the French (as I said earlier) for getting up their collective arses and doing something about it. Otherwise they would end up being the new Italy. Because Sarkozy IS the new Berlusconi, that much we know.


And while yes, welly u are right that there are better ways than rioting to show your displeasure with the government, "speaking louder" at a certain point just doesn't do the trick anymore (even if you hold a boombox over your head while doing so).
And in France that point is just reached earlier than elsewhere (for previously mentioned reasons, history etc.), all I'm saying.

Offline zefrer

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« Reply #84 on: Tue, 26 October 2010, 09:02:37 »
Quote from: Senor_Cartmenez;238414

*** on a sidenote: In modern Greek, the government is often referred to as the "kratos" which would mean "the one that holds the power", meant is of course the political power. This quite nicely shows how the thinking of the people in modern democracies has changed. In the US, you call your president the most powerful man in the world. In Greece they call the government "the one that holds the power". Both are just wrong.
Neither one holds ****, they have no power. They are only allowed to weild OUR power under OUR close supervision. The only thing lacking these days is that supervision, that many people *looks up* tend to forgive we have the OBLIGATION to carry out.
But both terms damn well describe the reality of modern democracy...


I agree with you on a general level but just to clarify a couple points.

The word 'kratos' does mean power but it also literally means state, when it is one or the other depends on context.

In ancient greece before democracy cities were called 'city-states' because each had their own sovereignties.

The word democracy literally means 'the people's state', which is about the most accurate description of what democracy means, or should mean.

In both contexts the core word 'kratos' means state, not power.

Offline J888www

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« Reply #85 on: Tue, 26 October 2010, 09:08:36 »
Quote from: ch_123;238446
And what exactly do you do if the government doesn't listen?

IIRC.  In the US of A, if the Government do not listen, they shoot the head of the Government.
 Lincoln, Garfield,  Kennedy, McKinley....... all shot dead
 Reagan, Jackson, Truman, Ford....... lucky to survive.
 Obama, will probably be the next to be shot..... very soon.

That's what I call Democracy, if your not happy, go shoot your President.
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Offline Senor_Cartmenez

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« Reply #86 on: Tue, 26 October 2010, 10:03:03 »
Trunkmonkey is so ****in awesome, missed it, thanks for the memories ripster :D

@zefrer

 Έλληνας?

I agree that kratos is better translated as state than power. But I meant kratos means "hold" not "power". Just what is "held" is the political power. I deduced that from the new greek word "κρατώ" which means "to hold".

Either way it's probably not exactly right, because it should come from ancient greek. And what stuff in ancient greek exactly means is usually impossible to agree on. Alexander the Great was, well Great. But he was also a man and as a result in some ways foolish. For example in hoarding so much of the back then greatest nation's knowledge in one place: Alexandria.
When those libraries burned down so much was lost, I think the Greeks are still trying to recover from that. The modern Greek language seems but a mere shadow of its former incarnation...

Offline Senor_Cartmenez

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« Reply #87 on: Tue, 26 October 2010, 10:12:04 »
When I was searching kratos in google because I wanted to post the word in kyrillic letters, the same damn thing came up...

Kratos greek and Kratos greek language didn't help either.

Damn the video gaming industry :D

Offline zefrer

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« Reply #88 on: Tue, 26 October 2010, 10:20:44 »
Hehe :) See here for reference.

In mythology there are a couple mentions of the 'Kratos' character. He is written to be the one that chained Prometheus for the crime of brining fire to the common people. Also said to be a son of the titan Pallas (seen in many other games) and fought on the behest of Zeus. But enough with the mythology lessons.

The word "κρατώ" means strictly 'to hold', yes. That is a verb however, not a noun. The core word 'kratos' as in democracy is a noun and strictly means state.

Cartmenez: Oxi akrivos. I am fluent in greek tho.

Offline Lanx

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #89 on: Tue, 26 October 2010, 10:29:01 »
frenchies could learn a thing or 2 from the real Kratos (i of course mean the god of war), the release of god of war 3(along with ffx13) made me buy the ps3, and thats pretty much it for the games that the ps3 has (and currently has 6months of dust).

Offline wellington1869

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #90 on: Tue, 26 October 2010, 14:50:02 »
if they're demonstrating non-violently, more power to them. What they really need to do is good old fashioned hard work: define their goals, persuade their peers, organize their voting blocs.  
But you see, thats hard, boring work - and most of all, its work.
Its much easier to complain about sarkozy after the fact, than do the hard work of trying to win the election according to the rules.  Its much easier to show displeasure after the fact, than do the hard work of organizing politically so these things dont happen in the first place.

Its much easier to blame sarkozy for a global economic shift that has affected everyone, not just france. The socialist countries meanwhile are capitalizing as fast as they can (china, even cuba, not to mention the dismantling of european socialism generally)  so a return to that doesnt seem the likely solution either.

Above all else what i see expressed in france, is a pervading sense of entitlement, which is more UNsustainable today than it ever was.

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Offline keyboardlover

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #91 on: Tue, 26 October 2010, 15:06:20 »
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIII don't wanna work. I just wanna bang on my drum all dayyyyyy.


Offline wellington1869

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #92 on: Tue, 26 October 2010, 15:55:27 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;239066
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIII don't wanna work. I just wanna bang on my drum all dayyyyyy.


;) exactly.

I'm sad to say this sense of entitlement and aversion to work is a big part of the liberal romance/imagination.  i'm not saying liberals dont work - they do, and they've accomplished amazing things. But i'm saying liberals tend to think/wish/hope that drive/emotion will take care of most things, as opposed to discipline/regulation/work.  We tend to see the latter as the enemy, as oppression, as dictatorial, as taking away our sense of expression and self. But its not true. Some of the best things in life come from really really boring and hard work. Liberals generally dont embrace that truth though. Conservatives do (often to the other extreme).

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Offline pikapika

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #93 on: Tue, 26 October 2010, 16:07:18 »
what is hard work when you can't get jobs ?

and sarkozy has made the wolrd crisis even worse for everyone

seems you do not know much about the politics that are driven here, and so your rants are just general complaints  that do not fit any kind of reality

Offline Rajagra

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #94 on: Tue, 26 October 2010, 16:24:05 »
Quote from: pikapika;239090
what is hard work when you can't get jobs ?

Creating the jobs. But that's always somebody else's responsibility. Right?

Offline keyboardlover

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #95 on: Tue, 26 October 2010, 17:55:59 »
It's not Sarkozy's fault that you can't get jobs. France's government has always put too many restrictions on companies that limit growth, competition and opportunities for youth, while creating super cushy environments for older employees. Not to mention how difficult it is to get fired in your country.

Offline quadibloc

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #96 on: Tue, 26 October 2010, 18:24:35 »
What creates a condition where jobs are plentiful or scarce?

I would think that the value of labor as an input is what matters.

Land and raw materials are getting more scarce, while Western nations are admitting lots of immigrants to try and balance their pension funds. So it's easy to find people who need work, but oil and food and rent keep getting more expensive.

Encouraging people to invest does help provide capital, factories and offices to work in, but for the most part, the West is badly overpriced. The people who are poor and thus stuck in countries with dictatorships or threatened by war - they're competitive.

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #97 on: Tue, 26 October 2010, 19:16:59 »
Quote from: quadibloc

Land and raw materials are getting more scarce, while Western nations are admitting lots of immigrants to try and balance their pension funds. So it's easy to find people who need work, but oil and food and rent keep getting more expensive.

Encouraging people to invest does help provide capital, factories and offices to work in, but for the most part, the West is badly overpriced. The people who are poor and thus stuck in countries with dictatorships or threatened by war - they're competitive.


Oil and housing both tend to be cheaper in America than Europe. I don't think saying 'for the most part, the West is badly overpriced' is accurate at all. In fact America is a bargain in comparison to much of the East.

Offline pikapika

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« Reply #98 on: Wed, 27 October 2010, 05:15:24 »
Quote from: Rajagra;239096
Creating the jobs. But that's always somebody else's responsibility. Right?


seems easy, show me how you do that

Quote from: keyboardlover;239129
It's not Sarkozy's fault that you can't get jobs. France's government has always put too many restrictions on companies that limit growth, competition and opportunities for youth, while creating super cushy environments for older employees. Not to mention how difficult it is to get fired in your country.


seems you are stuck in the 70s, things have changed a lot, not for the best.

Offline keyboardlover

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what the hell is wrong with the french?
« Reply #99 on: Wed, 27 October 2010, 07:40:04 »
Quote from: pikapika
seems easy, show me how you do that


You do that with fewer restrictions on capitalism that limit growth.

Quote from: pikapika

seems you are stuck in the 70s, things have changed a lot, not for the best.


My comments were regarding the way I've known France to be in the past 10 - 15 years or so, so my points still hold true. If you think differently, then explain how they don't.