Author Topic: Hi everyone, looking for an 1800 layout with an extra F-row  (Read 2360 times)

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Offline Iaotle

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  • Posts: 1
  • Location: Amsterdam
Hi everyone, looking for an 1800 layout with an extra F-row
« on: Wed, 03 July 2024, 19:51:49 »
Hey guys, I'm looking for something resembling an 1800 or 96% layout but with an extra F-row, and preferably numpad on the left side. I also prefer the grid layout (perhaps even with ortholinear skew), but it seems that most 1800 layouts have the default skewed rows. I've made a little mockup of what I want, and was wondering if there is anything that I can get that resembles this without going the full custom route. Any suggestions welcome!

Offline Rhienfo

  • Posts: 747
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
  • Why is everything I want here so expensive :(
Re: Hi everyone, looking for an 1800 layout with an extra F-row
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 05 July 2024, 08:12:13 »
Welcome to Geekhack :)

I saw the layout and I think you would have to go the custom route, ortho in general is way too niche and combined with a layout like this there definitely isn't anything similar.
keyboard collection - fjell
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cherry blacks - unlubed - filmed and springswapped with tx 55g mediums - alu Plate | pretty happy with this, the blacks were cherry picked so they weren't that scratchy to begin with, but currently breaking them in, may lube them with a dry lube like ro59 or ptfe powder.
| hhkb bt
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lubed with tribosys 3203 | like topre a lot, prefer it lubed but did make less tactile but that might have been a skill issue. probably will get more tactile over time as the domes age.
| m0115
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bad orange alps lol | definitely needs a restoration. planning on wax boiling them and maybe a replacement pcb because the board has only 2 key rollover apparently.
| praxis
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gateron yellows - lubed with 205g0 - 62g tx mediums - pc plate | probably my favourite keyboard already, feels super nice and sounds pretty good, it's got a great layout as well. probably gonna build this with mx browns, I feel like it would suit the board more.
| camo filco
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stock with silent reds | Pretty cool looking board, the silent reds are actually good, they are smooth and I don't mind the mushiness (it's not even that mushy as well). the layout is pretty weird, but is useable. will probably mod this in the future. maybe a pcb and plate swap, change the keycaps to something dolch like, and also spring swap the springs in the silent reds.
| ibm model f at
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stock, needs a cleaning and probably replacement foam. Do plan to change layout so it has split bs and rs, as well as ansi enter.

collection in pixel art
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Offline wjrii

  • Posts: 111
  • Location: Texas
Re: Hi everyone, looking for an 1800 layout with an extra F-row
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 05 July 2024, 10:17:09 »
Hey guys, I'm looking for something resembling an 1800 or 96% layout but with an extra F-row, and preferably numpad on the left side. I also prefer the grid layout (perhaps even with ortholinear skew), but it seems that most 1800 layouts have the default skewed rows. I've made a little mockup of what I want, and was wondering if there is anything that I can get that resembles this without going the full custom route. Any suggestions welcome!

I agree with Rhienfo.  The number of options has exploded in recent years, but an ortholinear southpaw battleship will be a bit of a tall order.  :-)  The only thing I can think of is a large Point of Sale board like the Tipro KMX 128 or its clone the Cherry RC128BM. They will be VERY ortho though, LOL.  You could set them up to match the basic criteria, but not to match your layout, and while they seem perfectly programmable, I have no personal idea how easy it would be.

THIS was somebody's DIY build, and it's not southpaw but might have some ideas for you.  My own most recent hand-wired build was a no-stabilizers southpaw 1800-ish, and until very late in the "design cycle" (LOL) it was going to include F13-F24.  Overall though, the ortho folks don't tend to prefer large boards, generally topping out at a 15x5 grid, and the 1800 crowd is generally happy with traditional row stagger.

If your aesthetic needs are flexible (see my junkboard above), and you have (or are willing to build) soldering skills, making a full custom is surprisingly cost-effective in many areas, even more so if you have access to a 3D printer and/or laser cutter.  I did some earlier builds based off of aluminum plates I designed in KLE, moved to 2D CAD with Swill's plate generator, and had cut by Xometry.  Sides can be cut as well for a true sandwich case (the DIY aesthetic is not as in vogue anymore, but there are still commercially available versions), or you can save on material by getting a little creative and designing a twig case to put smaller pieces of material between the screws and maybe even nest them so they interlock to form a solid sidewall (or you can 3D print something). If you plan it right, they will only increase the size of your cutting order slightly.

The other thing to consider when you start playing in this space is keycaps.  If you need accurate legends and/or to use a "sculpted" profile like Cherry or SA or OEM, it starts to get very challenging and expensive.  the flat-aligned tops of XDA and DSA are your friends here, and even then there are things to keep in mind.  For instance, the only 3u wide keys I know of are spacebars, so they might not have the feel you would like on your Enter key.  I hope you don't mind, and you certainly have no obligations to use or even consider it, but I took the liberty of tweaking your layout a bit to match available keycaps, though even then not every set has 2u Shift and you're looking at repurposing some other 2u key or turning a spare numpad Enter sideways.  If you're comfortable with ISO style layouts, consider making your main Enter key vertical and it will fit perfectly if unsculpted, with a 2u "plus" being an option if you need to go sculpted.  Depending on your typing skills, blanks might be an option, or maybe blank modifiers combined with a regular set of alphas.
« Last Edit: Fri, 05 July 2024, 10:40:12 by wjrii »

Offline Iaotle

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  • Posts: 1
  • Location: Amsterdam
Re: Hi everyone, looking for an 1800 layout with an extra F-row
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 06 July 2024, 05:59:56 »
I guess ortholinear is not super important, as I'm alright with grid... Out of curiosity, why did you decide against the additional F-row on your last build?

Thank you so much for the advice and the modified layout! I'll definitely do a few design passes and look at my options for building one. I've contacted a local keyboard shop and am also discussing with them, but I'm no aesthetics freak, I'm fine with blank caps, I'm more about that functionality :)

Offline wjrii

  • Posts: 111
  • Location: Texas
Re: Hi everyone, looking for an 1800 layout with an extra F-row
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 06 July 2024, 11:11:29 »
I guess ortholinear is not super important, as I'm alright with grid... Out of curiosity, why did you decide against the additional F-row on your last build?

Thank you so much for the advice and the modified layout! I'll definitely do a few design passes and look at my options for building one. I've contacted a local keyboard shop and am also discussing with them, but I'm no aesthetics freak, I'm fine with blank caps, I'm more about that functionality :)

I was using ortholinear and grid more or less interchangeably, but yeah, a lot of them are simple grids of 1u keys.  There is at least one layout that simply makes the main typing block of alphanumeric keys ortholinear, then lets the standard modifiers sit where they will.  IMO that tends to look better with a low profile "floating keycaps" design (think the linked board, Drop boards or various steel plate gamer boards) where the plate has a fairly nice finish, but it's a definitely one way to keep your keycap needs simple if physical footprint is not a huge concern, and not to presume, but in your case it likely isn't, LOL.  That said, you could plan around commonly available keycaps to shave a little bit off that Keebio layout though, particularly on the left.  I treat KLE like my personal Tetris, LOL.  Something like THIS would have very few keycap kitting issues.

For my build, I was initially planning to make it completely laser-cut, pedal to the metal, 124 keys or something, just a vast expanse of painted Masonite hardboard (I made a little numpad that way that came out well).  Ultimately, though, I wasn't sure how much I would like the southpaw configuration, so I wanted to keep it cheap, even by my low standards.  I reworked it to fit a set of keycaps I already had (e.g. lack of an Enter column on the numpad), and threw together some sidewalls that printed quickly and easily but hid the layers of hardboard.  In retrospect, I hate the way Cherry profile feels with zero degree incline, so saving vertical space by cramming the microcontroller into the top right ended up being an unnecessary compromise, better suited to builds with unsculpted keycaps.  If I were to go back, I'd probably rethink some things, but the next half-baked project is already on its way from China.  :D

Offline Iaotle

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1
  • Location: Amsterdam
Re: Hi everyone, looking for an 1800 layout with an extra F-row
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 07 July 2024, 13:31:38 »
I guess ortholinear is not super important, as I'm alright with grid... Out of curiosity, why did you decide against the additional F-row on your last build?

Thank you so much for the advice and the modified layout! I'll definitely do a few design passes and look at my options for building one. I've contacted a local keyboard shop and am also discussing with them, but I'm no aesthetics freak, I'm fine with blank caps, I'm more about that functionality :)

I was using ortholinear and grid more or less interchangeably, but yeah, a lot of them are simple grids of 1u keys.  There is at least one layout that simply makes the main typing block of alphanumeric keys ortholinear, then lets the standard modifiers sit where they will.  IMO that tends to look better with a low profile "floating keycaps" design (think the linked board, Drop boards or various steel plate gamer boards) where the plate has a fairly nice finish, but it's a definitely one way to keep your keycap needs simple if physical footprint is not a huge concern, and not to presume, but in your case it likely isn't, LOL.  That said, you could plan around commonly available keycaps to shave a little bit off that Keebio layout though, particularly on the left.  I treat KLE like my personal Tetris, LOL.  Something like THIS would have very few keycap kitting issues.

For my build, I was initially planning to make it completely laser-cut, pedal to the metal, 124 keys or something, just a vast expanse of painted Masonite hardboard (I made a little numpad that way that came out well).  Ultimately, though, I wasn't sure how much I would like the southpaw configuration, so I wanted to keep it cheap, even by my low standards.  I reworked it to fit a set of keycaps I already had (e.g. lack of an Enter column on the numpad), and threw together some sidewalls that printed quickly and easily but hid the layers of hardboard.  In retrospect, I hate the way Cherry profile feels with zero degree incline, so saving vertical space by cramming the microcontroller into the top right ended up being an unnecessary compromise, better suited to builds with unsculpted keycaps.  If I were to go back, I'd probably rethink some things, but the next half-baked project is already on its way from China.  :D

Yeah, but I like the spacing as-is tbh. I'm not a looks kinda guy, I hate reaching for keys, that's the whole reason behind the tight f-cluster. The first improved layout you sent, plus gap-filling the missing keys is enough for me :)

Offline wjrii

  • Posts: 111
  • Location: Texas
Re: Hi everyone, looking for an 1800 layout with an extra F-row
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 07 July 2024, 20:42:57 »


Yeah, but I like the spacing as-is tbh. I'm not a looks kinda guy, I hate reaching for keys, that's the whole reason behind the tight f-cluster. The first improved layout you sent, plus gap-filling the missing keys is enough for me :)

No worries!  I absolutely get wanting what you want.   Hopefully you just have a feel now for what your options and challenges are likely to be!. Welcome to GH.  :-)

Offline Iaotle

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  • Posts: 1
  • Location: Amsterdam
Re: Hi everyone, looking for an 1800 layout with an extra F-row
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 10 July 2024, 12:10:37 »


Yeah, but I like the spacing as-is tbh. I'm not a looks kinda guy, I hate reaching for keys, that's the whole reason behind the tight f-cluster. The first improved layout you sent, plus gap-filling the missing keys is enough for me :)

No worries!  I absolutely get wanting what you want.   Hopefully you just have a feel now for what your options and challenges are likely to be!. Welcome to GH.  :-)


Do you have some tips on how to create a PCB, which controller etc to use? Since you've made your own board, I'd be interested in getting some advice on this front, maybe some common pitfalls etc? My board has lots of keys, so I assume there's some limitation on what I can pick there. I should be ok with soldering/lubing/etc when I get there.

Offline Rhienfo

  • Posts: 747
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
  • Why is everything I want here so expensive :(
Re: Hi everyone, looking for an 1800 layout with an extra F-row
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 12 July 2024, 01:57:41 »
Do you have some tips on how to create a PCB, which controller etc to use? Since you've made your own board, I'd be interested in getting some advice on this front, maybe some common pitfalls etc? My board has lots of keys, so I assume there's some limitation on what I can pick there. I should be ok with soldering/lubing/etc when I get there.

I don't know much about pcb design but I remember hearing that a lot of modern pcb designers use stm32 or rp2040 controllers pretty recently. That might be a good start but look into it more as well, there are definitely good resources around.

Not sure how up to date the Ai03 guide is but that should at least be a good start.
keyboard collection - fjell
More
cherry blacks - unlubed - filmed and springswapped with tx 55g mediums - alu Plate | pretty happy with this, the blacks were cherry picked so they weren't that scratchy to begin with, but currently breaking them in, may lube them with a dry lube like ro59 or ptfe powder.
| hhkb bt
More
lubed with tribosys 3203 | like topre a lot, prefer it lubed but did make less tactile but that might have been a skill issue. probably will get more tactile over time as the domes age.
| m0115
More
bad orange alps lol | definitely needs a restoration. planning on wax boiling them and maybe a replacement pcb because the board has only 2 key rollover apparently.
| praxis
More
gateron yellows - lubed with 205g0 - 62g tx mediums - pc plate | probably my favourite keyboard already, feels super nice and sounds pretty good, it's got a great layout as well. probably gonna build this with mx browns, I feel like it would suit the board more.
| camo filco
More
stock with silent reds | Pretty cool looking board, the silent reds are actually good, they are smooth and I don't mind the mushiness (it's not even that mushy as well). the layout is pretty weird, but is useable. will probably mod this in the future. maybe a pcb and plate swap, change the keycaps to something dolch like, and also spring swap the springs in the silent reds.
| ibm model f at
More
stock, needs a cleaning and probably replacement foam. Do plan to change layout so it has split bs and rs, as well as ansi enter.

collection in pixel art
More

Offline LASERman Projects

  • Posts: 146
  • Location: Kent, UK
  • Soldering is my native language.
Re: Hi everyone, looking for an 1800 layout with an extra F-row
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 12 July 2024, 03:52:56 »
Maybe they can make ortho southpaw variant of Boston for you.

And here is the most beautiful one I saw on MUK Meet2024 for appreciation:


Offline wjrii

  • Posts: 111
  • Location: Texas
Re: Hi everyone, looking for an 1800 layout with an extra F-row
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 14 July 2024, 20:01:12 »

Do you have some tips on how to create a PCB, which controller etc to use? Since you've made your own board, I'd be interested in getting some advice on this front, maybe some common pitfalls etc? My board has lots of keys, so I assume there's some limitation on what I can pick there. I should be ok with soldering/lubing/etc when I get there.

So, I only JUST graduated to using any sort of PCB at all.  Until the one I finished yesterday, all my customs had been hand-wired, manually soldering the diodes and partially insulated wires to the switches and a standard Raspberry Pi Pico variant with USB-C (they're available all over Amazon, AE, etc.).  I watched Youtube videos and read tutorials and managed to cobble together the matrix part into a PCB, which I had made at JLCPCB (under $30 for the minimum order quantity of 5, but I had literally no components, just holes and traces), and I simply left 23 though-holes to solder to my Microcontroller board, same as if it were a hand-wire.  There are open source reference boards out there, like the Boston or the GH60, that you could download to see a more complete iteration.  Some people split the difference and still use a separate microcontroller dev board like a Pro Micro or Pi Pico, but solder it properly to the board or use a socket.  For your initial layout, make sure to use one with a bare minimum of 22 accessible GPIO pins, and more would be MUCH better.  You absolutely have to be at least [2 * sqrt(number of keys), rounded up], but that makes for a weird bit of wiring since boards are rarely that close to square.  The 26 on a Pi Pico would let you make a fairly reasonable matrix, though I luxuriously used up 23 to make an 85-key board.

I am fairly handy and mentally flexible, but my educational background is almost as far from Electrical or Mechanical Engineering as you can get, so this journey has been one learning process after another.  If you're farther along, you could prbably just look at a KiCAD schematic and layout, and modify it accordingly for fabrication.  You might even consider glancing at the mCAD files for the Boston to see if any of its parts could be reused or manipulated to avoid starting from scratch. the 3D printed version seems to have seams in many useful places.

Now, if you are starting from nothing... no worries.  Bigger is not actually harder, just... bigger.  If you want to consider the "minimum viable design" you can make a board with two 1.5mm aluminum plates and a bunch of 10 or 15mm standoffs. I would suggest making your final layout in KLE, then taking it to swill's plate generator and getting some DXF files.  You can open them in most 2D CAD software, including LibreCAD (free!) or even Inkscape, though the line-widths always throw me, so I just do that the last second for my home laser-cutting needs.  Once you have it open, I'd add a few interior screwholes for your big boy (flex is one thing, but this is NOT a 60%) as well as some space and mounting holes for your MCU.  Then use xometry or some other vendor to fab a switch plate and a bottom plate.

Hand wiring is extremely straightforward and is a good way to really understand how a keyboard matrix must be laid out, once you do the "paperwork".  Joe Scotto has some really nice and easy-to-follow videos, though he's making showpieces with his ginormous webs of copper rebar (lol), and there is a wealth of information here on GH.  An aluminum plate is relatively cheap to have cut and is more than strong enough at 1.5mm to accommodate simple plate-mount stabilizers.  Programming in QMK/Vial or the new POG tool for KMK (I just tried this and LOVED it) shouldn't be too hard.  I'm biased, but making your own keyboards is one of the biggest bangs for your buck (and time) in the hobby.  The way they function pretty much exactly like a professionally made product is just deeply satisfying, as is knowing that you have the exact keyboard you wanted.

Now all that said, I'll circle back and continue harping on keycaps.  Research available sets and decide what your needs and preferences are  and what your budget is.  Getting away from the keys used in standard layouts (or a few more popular variations) makes kitting hard. It just does; not impossible but hard.  If it's your original layout, you will likely be looking at XDA or DSA, since you can supplement whatever set you get with blanks, and your dreams of a 2.75u Enter key can be a reality.  Having stuff on the wrong rows just feels bad, man.  :-)

Good luck if you decide to go in this direction!
« Last Edit: Sun, 14 July 2024, 23:10:52 by wjrii »