frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get

[wellington1869]

A useable laptop... multitasking-capable, and doesnt make you wait an eternity while it opens an app - is still pretty pricey to obtain.

basically you're looking at a core i5 if you want multitasking snappiness.

And that means starting prices at 650 or so (usually).

But thats not enough for a "useable" laptop.  The weight has to be decent too. In my view, "decent" and "useable" portability means under 4lbs. 3 lbs and change.  And that bumps up the price to $1000 new and $700 or $800 used. Minimum.

I'm talking about decent useability here, with few compromises.

And if you want a touchscreen, as I do (i'm *completely* sold on writing on the convertible/slate/tablet), well, new ones are $2000 and above, and used ones are $800 and above.

Thats a /lot/ of dough for a laptop.  I could buy a freaking used car for that kind of money.

[wellington1869]

I'm sold on the asus EP121 -- which may or may not come out sometime in 2011, for $1000.  What am I supposed to do until then?! huh?! Jeez.

(and i'll ***** and moan about the $1000 when the time comes )

(ep121 = 12" convertible with /detachable/ screen (slate mode), under 2lbs, c2d-ulv processor, 8 hours battery. /*Useability*/.)

[wellington1869]

Make sure you buy one with a good return policy.

bro, i take that as a given.

[microsoft windows]

Now, if your laptop's running slow, that very likely means you're running lots of stuff in the background. I can get around extremely fast on a 933Mhz Pentium III and multi-task fine with it. It's just that I use Windows 2000 and I am careful to trim down any extra stuff running in the background.

What I'd recommend for now if you're into speeding up your laptop would be to put XP on it and start over again.

[ch_123]

To me, XP seems slower compared with 7 if you're running it on decent hardware. On older hardware that obviously doesn't hold true because of the extra RAM consumption of the newer operating systems.

As for needing an i5 for multitasking? This morning, I was running three operating systems at the same time on my Core 2 Duo Thinkpad, and didn't have any slowdowns. That's pretty pimpin' multitasking by my standards.

[WhiteRice]

lol core i5 is such marketing gimmick, core 2 duo is more than enough to do day to day tasks.

I'll sell you my asus 1008ha that has 2GB of ram and a 30GB SSD for $400.

My current laptop is a Asus U35jc that I got for $790.

Stop falling for the bells and whistles.

[ch_123]

Also, stop using Internet Explorer. That make computah go fastah.

[jpc]

As for needing an i5 for multitasking?

Technically, a 486 running Windows 95 can multitask.

*ducks*

Seriously it depends what you need to run. My laptop is a 2005 Thinkpad T40. It's adequate for email and web browsing and VNC at work. It's given me zero problems in 5+ years so I'm hanging onto it.

(This an endorsement of buying something nice, new, and holding on for a long time. This is not an endorsement of buying used five year old laptops. My laptop's not for sale for a reason. One that is for sale? There might also be a reason.)

[Phaedrus2129]

Laptops are dead.


Desktops for everything serious, smartphone/tablet for portability. Any laptop more than a small netbook to SSL with is a waste of money these days. I only got my X100e because I needed something to take notes on in class, and it's probably ended up distracting me more than helping.

[instantkamera]

yeah that sounds like a load of bunkum. Depending on what you are doing a lowend dual core is fine for everyday multitasking. For me, RAM is actually much more important.

[keyboardlover]

lol core i5 is such marketing gimmick, core 2 duo is more than enough to do day to day tasks.

Agreed. Especially the ones with a super large cache. I also highly recommend 8 GB DDR3 =)

[Phaedrus2129]

Also, laptop Core i5s are about on part with like a T6*** or T7***, with the low-end i7s being the P**** replacements. High-end mobility i7s are the only ones that really outclass earlier laptop CPUs.

[instantkamera]

Laptops are dead.


Desktops for everything serious, smartphone/tablet for portability. Any laptop more than a small netbook to SSL with is a waste of money these days. I only got my X100e because I needed something to take notes on in class, and it's probably ended up distracting me more than helping.

+1 ... my plan:
-build a custom workstation
-get a tab with a custom embedded OS.

best of both worlds.

[WhiteRice]

Laptops are dead.


Desktops for everything serious, smartphone/tablet for portability. Any laptop more than a small netbook to SSL with is a waste of money these days. I only got my X100e because I needed something to take notes on in class, and it's probably ended up distracting me more than helping.

The new air is a perfect example of a portable machine... too bad it comes with an apple price tag.

[ch_123]

Laptops are dead.


Desktops for everything serious, smartphone/tablet for portability. Any laptop more than a small netbook to SSL with is a waste of money these days. I only got my X100e because I needed something to take notes on in class, and it's probably ended up distracting me more than helping.

I got my 14.1" Thinkpad with nVidia graphics when I was going into college. I wanted something that was a sort of all-rounder, and at that it's a great compromise between lots of different ideas of what a laptop should do. However, I find it weighs too much (2.5kg doesn't sound like much, but it gets tiring when you go on an hour long walk with it in your bag) and the battery life is pretty mediocre (~3 - 3.5 hours) even with the bulky 9-cell battery included.

I'd be much better off with one of the lighter, smaller 12.1" Thinkpad tablet laptops. Besides, for most stuff, the CPUs nowadays are powerful enough for most things, so it doesn't matter if doesn't have the latest and greatest. I don't need a graphics chipset, because most of the games I like don't need much graphics power and could probably run alright on an integrated chip. The thing I would worry about is the screen. I like to read stuff on it while watching TV or lying in bed, and sometimes 14.1" seems like too small of a screen.

[WhiteRice]

What if you could get an ipad with a blue tooth HHKB?

[Lanx]

i have a 2007 dell laptop that weighs 7lbs is a core2duo and does what i want(even though it's just a kitchen laptop), i have a 3lb netbook that is tiny as sin, also a dell and of course while it does have 2gigs it's still a single core, but can sorta multi task fine, i can take out to the park and google docs/browse with it if i wanted to, it's also a touchscreen but i barely use it for that.

But this isn't about that, it's about "useable" laptop, these are features that are user dependant, one person's 10in screen is another person's nightmare.
One person's chiclet keys are another person's ibm keyboard hell.

[instantkamera]

I'm inclined to say that anyone who thinks laptops are conceptually dead is not a student.

(or, at least, a student in an institution or program within said institution where typing is the preferred note-taking method, 100% of your assignments are on the computer only, using software such as Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Project, Visio and OneNote, and 100% of your communication with professors outside of class is by email...)

Laptops have their uses. They're certainly not optimal for contacting someone, for example, on the city bus, but they beat the crap out of a smartphone for note taking in class.

i would agree with that. I do all my real computing at home, everything I want to do away from home is covered very nicely by a "smart" device.

student needs are a whole different beast.

[ch_123]

I remember multitasking quite happily on my computer long before the advent of dual core x86 processors...

[jpc]

I'm inclined to say that anyone who thinks laptops are conceptually dead is not a student.

Right!

Anyone who thinks laptops are conceptually dead is also not a computer professional. A laptop lets you get s*** done while you are trapped in a meeting.

[keyb_gr]

Anyone remember how, not that many years ago, people said the desktop PC was dead? Kinda didn't happen, did it?

As always, it's horses for courses. Nowadays there is a larger variety of PC form factors than ever, which is a good thing.

[quadibloc]

It's all a sinister plot. We could get nearly all our work done with a PC capable of running Windows 3.1, which could be made really cheaply with today's technology.

But those evil geniuses at Microsoft and Intel force us to buy new computers every few years so that we can run current software, which does extra stuff we don't really need.

Even Linux is bloated with features because they've been fooled into thinking they need to keep up!

[ch_123]

I like operating systems that aren't glorified machine code monitors...

[kill will]

I have an 18.4" Sony Vaio.  I bought it for $999 brand new.  I like it a lot.  It can definitely multi task. I realized even when I use a laptop I still usually plug it in and plop it on a desk, so why not get one with a big screen to enjoy.

[microsoft windows]

Also, stop using Internet Explorer. That make computah go fastah.

Ahhh... So I finally know who made this web site.

[ch_123]

Because they usually weigh a ton. I can see why people would want them, I just wouldn't want to lug one around when going to college and stuff.

[wellington1869]

Not meaning to convey a sense of MW-ness, but there are a lot of not-quite-current machines you can buy used that can keep up for most things. Do you need to run the latest and greatest, or are you working with ~5 year old software, or stuff that isn't too demanding?

no this is a good point, and is basically the philosophy I've adopted right now.
Example: my current "useable" laptop is: c2d at 2ghz, 3gb ram, win7,  momentus hybrid hard drive (which **rocks**), and its a tablet/convertible (and with a true active wacom digitizer no less) -- which I got for --- the bargain basement price on ebay of -- $250. That just cant be beat, a true bargain and really useable speed (i have zero complaints about its speed even under heaviest loads).  
My big complaint: Weight.  Its supposed to be 4.5 lbs (mine weighs in at 4lbs 11oz), which is still lighter than my previous dell -- but -- it doesnt feel that light. I dont know if the weight-balance is off or what, but when you pick it up, i swear it feels like 8 lbs.

I'd love something in 3lb range -- or even better - 2 lb range like the EP121 without any sacrifice of speed/features.  Those are out there, just not at the  pricepoint i'd like of course.  I"d pay 600 to 650 happily for such a combination. Fat chance, i know. Not new anyway. Maybe 1 or 2 years old. And thats fine, but that means I wait till 2012 or 2013 for used Ep121's to come on the market in bulk.

[keyboardlover]

You can't. Always. Get. What you want...

[microsoft windows]

The cheapest solution to heavy laptops:

Do push-ups every day for a few months.

[wellington1869]

To me, XP seems slower compared with 7 if you're running it on decent hardware. On older hardware that obviously doesn't hold true because of the extra RAM consumption of the newer operating systems.

agreed, win7 seems faster to me than XP even on older hardware

As for needing an i5 for multitasking? This morning, I was running three operating systems at the same time on my Core 2 Duo Thinkpad, and didn't have any slowdowns. That's pretty pimpin' multitasking by my standards.

ya i agree the c2d is a marvel.  I feel my c2d is faster than most i3's.  i5's though, they are sweet. I havent yet met an i5 macine that I didnt fall in love with, useability wise.  I'm going to skip the i3 on my next upgrade and shoot for an i5.

[ch_123]

What sort of things do you run on the laptop?

[wellington1869]

as for bells and whistles... I love bells and whistles!

[microsoft windows]

Show Image

Everybody loves bells and whistles.

[wellington1869]

What sort of things do you run on the laptop?

main programs open all day and open simultaneously:
-at least 10 browser windows
-at least 2 or 3 word documents
-at least 2 surfulater databases
-onenote
-evernote
-outlook
-thunderbird

And thats if i'm not doing anything special that day.  Sometimes I also have:
-dragon naturally speaking (voice recognition)
-canon g3 tethered taking pics for my digitizing station, running ABBYY finereader OCR on the pics, and using calibre or etc to convert the resulting ebook formats.
(But when doing the above I dont have most of those other windows open.)
-occasional netflix streaming (tho i have a roku box now for my tv).

You'll notice - no real multimedia most days except for occasionally. I dont need a multimedia machine, just a multitasking machine.  I deal with text -- vast amounts of text - most of the day (notes, documents, emails, research)

I adore when my programs open instantly, switch instantly,update instantly, (its a train-of-thought issue, dont want to lose it), and when the computer turns on very very quickly (yes i use hibernation most of the time).

TO me thats useable if its also in a 2 or 3lb package and a minimum 12" screen (I prefer 13 or 14).  If its in a 2lb package i'd also ditch my sony reader and cuddle up with the tablet. Over 2lb i cant cuddle up with it.

Also: Bells and whistles running in background - a ton of stuff, starting with a massive autohotkey script that runs at high priority. I likes me productivity utilities.

[wellington1869]

I should add, if you guys havent tried the hybrid momentus xt drives, O. M. G., its as big a responsiveness boost as going from 512mb to 2gb. Seriously, its a serious resposniveness boost, just a real delight, and price-wise, is only about $20 more than a normal hard drive. I love mine.  It also cut my bootup time in half, just like an ssd.

dont forget the "XT" in the name, regular momentus are something different.

[ch_123]

Ten browser windows? You have heard of tabs, right?

[ch_123]

Even Linux is bloated with features because they've been fooled into thinking they need to keep up!

Open Office being the prime example.

[microsoft windows]

I usually have about 10 to 15 browser tabs open along with some word documents on my old Micron Clientpro. It's usually playing music at the same time.

I got to say that old clunker's really a beast. That 933Mhz PIII handles all that stuff like a charm.

But, I also run Windows 2000 and no background processes there. That could definitely be a contributing factor. But, I like my >1 second shutdown time (The whole proper shutdown, not just unplugging the thing) and 30-second Windows startup time (Try and get Windows 7 to do that even on a newer computer).

But for Welly, I think the best thing to do in this situation would to be to see what about the laptop is insufficient for what he does. If it's the RAM, just chuck in a few more GB's. If it's the CPU that's the bottleneck, that might be a little harder but I'm sure, that with care, it can be upgraded. And it definitely wouldn't hurt to review what background processes are running and trim down the ones that don't get used if there are any.

[wellington1869]

Ten browser windows? You have heard of tabs, right?

yes, i open separate windows to organize tabs; each of those 10 browser windows has multiple tabs open within them....  usually related to the same 'subject' being researched... one browser window per subject, with multiple tabs in each.

[ch_123]

The only time I bother with multiple windows is if I need to view two things at once, or have a multi-monitor set up. That said, ten windows seems excessive.

I think there are some ways of grouping tabs in various browsers, Im not entirely sure how you go about doing it though.

[microsoft windows]

Now I understand why you need the multitasking power. 50 browser tabs total would make my computer explode.

But I take multitasking with a more unusual approach. I usually have about 5 or 6 desktops all running, each with internet windows open. One computer does the music (That's the Micron) and each machine basically acts as one of Welly's Internet windows: Each computer's doing one type of thing (usually Internet-related). Honestly, my computers may be a bit old (and absolutely hideous), I get very good performance with my everyday tasks. Think about it: 6 processors versus a dual core.

But of course, the way I do it, it takes up a whole room and is the polar opposite of a laptop (Portability aspect), coming to think about it.

[wellington1869]

But for Welly, I think the best thing to do in this situation would to be to see what about the laptop is insufficient for what he does. If it's the RAM, just chuck in a few more GB's. If it's the CPU that's the bottleneck, that might be a little harder but I'm sure, that with care, it can be upgraded. And it definitely wouldn't hurt to review what background processes are running and trim down the ones that don't get used if there are any.

well cpu-wise looks like c2d at 2ghz is the minimum that makes me happy right now. I can get that at a decent used-laptop price (cant complain about $250).  Its more the weight that I bemoan right now. If I want to shed just 1 more pound, for instance, it'll cost me $600 for that. Wtf? Doesnt seem right.

[ch_123]

(The whole proper shutdown, not just unplugging the thing) and 30-second Windows startup time (Try and get Windows 7 to do that even on a newer computer).

Ok... Easy enough. I'm pretty sure my laptop and desktop load Windows 7 that fast.

OS X shut down in about a second when I ran it on my desktop a while back. Broke the installation and never got around to putting it back on.

[wellington1869]

Now I understand why you need the multitasking power. 50 browser tabs total would make my computer explode.

well to be fair, some of those windows might have just 2 tabs in them. I do like separating them out that way, cuz you can just use alt-tab and its like switching 'desktops' when you switch browser windows. Very efficient when juggling mutliple researches. I do close them up soon as I'm done with them.  

[I'm so used to working that way, btw, that this became one of my biggest issues when working with my macbook. Macs handle app-switching very very differently. First off the windows dont easily 'max' to fill the screen (i love to do that with every single window i'm working on; i simply rely on alt-tab to switch when i'm ready), secondly macs only switch between non-minimized windows (which confused the heck out of me). There's some other hotkey for the minimized ones. It wreaked havoc with my workflow which I've used ever since i can remember and am not going to give up now lol.]

My c2d 2ghz with 3gb and hybrid drive is keeping up very very nicely btw.  

Just wish it didnt feel like an 8 lb load on my back.

[wellington1869]

unlike the luddites here, i'm actually a big fan of evolving tech for pc's right now. The  cloud/integration/speed/SSD/ebook/tablet revolutions really excite me and I squeeze my nipples just like a little girl. Seriously, i think its brilliant and really useful stuff thats coming out these days for PCs in general and this is partly why I cant wait for the next iteration (EP121 specifically) to come out already.  

lighter faster stronger better...

[wellington1869]

Cloud...grumble...

Cloud is intermediary networks, not some magical place in the sky...

true dat, my old fashioned bro, but when you get two laptops and have to share the same files between them, suddenly you'll find yourself praising and thanking the gods for "microsoft office live" and other **** like that... integrated right into office too... its genuinely useful and it actually works well... and is seamless to share docs between my computers now. No more usb drives for things like that.

Or dropbox. I couldnt function without dropbox anymore.

Or mozy sending my backups to the cloud so if my place burns down I dont lose any data.

Or google docs, or google calendar sync so I dont have to pay for ms exchange and yet can share my outlook tasks and calendar between all my laptops as well as my palm pre smartphone...

truly brilliant stuff and it actually now is working pretty well.

[tho i agree 'cloud' is a dumb name]

[WhiteRice]

I'll sell you my U35JC, which has a 60 GB Sandforce SSD for $790.

[microsoft windows]

unlike the luddites here, i'm actually a big fan of evolving tech for pc's right now. The  cloud/integration/speed/SSD/ebook/tablet revolutions really excite me and I squeeze my nipples just like a little girl. Seriously, i think its brilliant and really useful stuff thats coming out these days for PCs in general and this is partly why I cant wait for the next iteration (EP121 specifically) to come out already.  

lighter faster stronger better...

I'm not a luddite. As a matter of fact, I don't have anything against new computers. But when what I got here works fine, why spend the money to replace it?

[instantkamera]

main programs open all day and open simultaneously:
-at least 10 browser windows
-at least 2 or 3 word documents
-at least 2 surfulater databases
-onenote
-evernote
-outlook
-thunderbird

And thats if i'm not doing anything special that day.  Sometimes I also have:
-dragon naturally speaking (voice recognition)
-canon g3 tethered taking pics for my digitizing station, running ABBYY finereader OCR on the pics, and using calibre or etc to convert the resulting ebook formats.
(But when doing the above I dont have most of those other windows open.)
-occasional netflix streaming (tho i have a roku box now for my tv).

You'll notice - no real multimedia most days except for occasionally. I dont need a multimedia machine, just a multitasking machine.  I deal with text -- vast amounts of text - most of the day (notes, documents, emails, research)

I adore when my programs open instantly, switch instantly,update instantly, (its a train-of-thought issue, dont want to lose it), and when the computer turns on very very quickly (yes i use hibernation most of the time).

TO me thats useable if its also in a 2 or 3lb package and a minimum 12" screen (I prefer 13 or 14).  If its in a 2lb package i'd also ditch my sony reader and cuddle up with the tablet. Over 2lb i cant cuddle up with it.

Also: Bells and whistles running in background - a ton of stuff, starting with a massive autohotkey script that runs at high priority. I likes me productivity utilities.

you need ram, you arent really "multitasking" (most of the those apps when non focusED are doing little PROCESSING). I can't believe how many people will pair the latest and greatest CPU with 2-4 gigs of RAM then scratch their heads when they start swapping IN* after opening several fairly common apps.

* I say swapping IN, because that is what really kills. Swapping out to disk is fine, and a GOOD OS will use swap for rarely used things in order to keep priority data in physical mem. The issue is when you find yourself doing steady swapping IN from disk. Does windows have a good 'vmstat' equivalent?

[wap32]

true dat, my old fashioned bro, but when you get two laptops and have to share the same files between them, suddenly you'll find yourself praising and thanking the gods for "microsoft office live" and other **** like that... integrated right into office too... its genuinely useful and it actually works well... and is seamless to share docs between my computers now. No more usb drives for things like that.

Or dropbox. I couldnt function without dropbox anymore.

Or mozy sending my backups to the cloud so if my place burns down I dont lose any data.

Or google docs, or google calendar sync so I dont have to pay for ms exchange and yet can share my outlook tasks and calendar between all my laptops as well as my palm pre smartphone...

truly brilliant stuff and it actually now is working pretty well.

[tho i agree 'cloud' is a dumb name]

I just find it a little scary that computers are becoming pretty useless without an internet connection.

If I had to work offline I don't think I'd get much done.
Be it searching wikipedia, scholar, or ieeexplore for references, accessing a shared document, talking to someone online for advice/opinion, meetings using skype, I think I'd be a little lost.

Not to mention social/entertainment stuff.

Cut off the network, and I'd be stuck with a useless processing unit.
Ok, maybe I'm exaggerating, but we're certainly walking towards that scenario.