Fresh meat... trying to decide on first Mechanical KB

[gmorf33]

Hello everyone, fresh meat here...

I'm "new" to mechanical keyboards.. obviously used them way back in the day when that's all there was (Model M's and the like), but of course back then it wasn't a big deal like it is now. So now that i've been reintroduced to the world of mechanicals a few decades later, i'm very interested in upgrading. I've been rockin out a $20 dollar logitech "corded deluxe access" keyboard for probably 15 years now. Its lasted me forever, but its finally biting the dust as certain keys are just not registering very well anymore. At work... various cheapo OEM HP/Compaq/IBM keyboards. So definitely not accustomed to high quality stuff.

I'm very torn on deciding which type of mechanical switch I want to get, without the aid of any physical samples to try out available here. After tons of reading the last few days... I -think- i've narrowed it down, but before i reveal that, i'd like to explain what my keyboard usage habits are like and what I think I would like in a mechanical, then mention what i think fits that criteria, then hear what recommendations come out.

My usage: about 45% typing and 55% gaming. I play a mix of FPS, RTS, and MMO's. So very wide variety there. I am a -very- hard typer. When i get going, i really slam out the keys with some heavy fingered presses, much to my coworkers and girlfriend's despair lol.

What I'm looking for in a mechanical: I researched all the options on force, tactile feedback, clicks, audible sounds (you tube vids) etc... I like the feel and feedback of the Model M's (dumb terminal version only thing i have access to test). I can really blaze out some fast typing on those, and the WASD + ctrl key gives me no issues with fatigue or strain as i've seen some complain about, but might be because I have pretty strong hands and fingers (lift weights 4 times a week). Definitely too loud and clicky though (which is cool at first, but gets annoying especially for others). So something with some of that tactile feedback without the loud clickity-clack.

That led me to the Black ALPS and the Cherry Browns. Never tried ALPS, but i'm assuming they basically type like a model M without the click? Cherry browns sound pretty sweet, but i'm worried they are too light (only half the model M) and with my tendency to type "hard" and rub my fingers across the home keys while at rest, i might get alot of accidental key-presses. Are these concerns valid? Its sooo hard to judge or choose without being able to try them out.

The lightness of the browns led me to look at the cherry blues and blacks, but i'm not so sure about those either. The force of blacks sound more akin to the Model M, but it also sounds like you miss out on most of the awesomeness with no feedback.. just a smooth press which seems really odd.. Blues I'm pretty sure I don't want, because of the reset point seems like it would cause issues with gaming. How does a black feel compared to a standard membrane keyboard? Do membranes have more feedback? If so, then I definately don't think I want blacks either.

Any help would be awesome.

[ironman31]

Membranes have more feedback than blacks, but that's because they have feedback.  Imo I would attempt to change my typinh style in favor of a lighter board. That's what I did when I first bought my filco brown, it took me a few months to where I wouldn't accidentally press keys, but it was all worth it in the end.

[keyb_gr]

That led me to the Black ALPS and the Cherry Browns. Never tried ALPS, but i'm assuming they basically type like a model M without the click?

Not at all. ALPS switches in general are far less smooth, and their tactile point is near the top of key travel (BS actuate about 2/3 down). Once you are over the tactile point, there is little more than some friction to keep you from bottoming out hard. To me, typing on a Dell with black Alps almost feels like typing on the metal plate - ouch. This slows me down, too.

BS or MX blues are much more forgiving. After years of typing on rubber domes and Model Ms, I'd bottom out blues but they were a joy to type on anyway. In the mean time blues and BS fought hard for the top spot in my personal ranking, and the lighter blues with doubleshots might be a wee bit ahead overall, but it's close.

Cherry browns sound pretty sweet, but i'm worried they are too light (only half the model M) and with my tendency to type "hard" and rub my fingers across the home keys while at rest, i might get alot of accidental key-presses.

Check out clears then, which are a heavier (about Model M territory), more tactile version. These would be in about the #3 spot for me. A bit uncommon though.

Blacks, btw, feel yet heavier than a Model M. Really not the kind of switch I'd want to write a novel on. They still make it to the middle ranks of my switch favs since they are smooooth, but I think I'd enjoy a lighter version (like the uncommon reds) a good bit more.

[Findecanor]

... but of course back then it wasn't a big deal like it is now.

It is still not a big deal.

I think that you should try a few keyboards and use the ones you like and can afford. Only then can you be sure that the keyboard is for you.
There are many people who actually prefer to use rubber dome keyboards over mechanical keyboards. (ohh.. did I just commit an act of blasphemy on this board? ;-) )

The big differences in feel, really are:
 - Most mechanicals bottom out hard ("clack") where rubber domes cushion the key stroke at the bottom. Some people love clack, some hate it. There are rubber domes that clack, but they are not very common.
 - The actuation point is (usually) aligned with the tactile point and not at the bottom. If the switch does not click, the less pronounced the tactile point is -- and especially if it is linear, then this may need some time to get used to.

Just because a keyboard is mechanical does NOT mean that it will last a lifetime in the state that it is in now. Just as most rubber domes get more mushy with use, the feel of a mechanical key switch may be diminished long before its stops working.
The only exception to this rule is the buckling spring (Model M, Model F) where some feel that the keyboard actually improves with age, only because the springs have become lighter. However, the bolts in an old Model M may need to be replaced for it to work properly.

Many ALPS switches have some bit of friction in them, and will get more as dust gets into the switch. Many types of ALPS switches are designed to feel very much like rubber domes, even.

That led me to the Black ALPS and the Cherry Browns. Never tried ALPS, but i'm assuming they basically type like a model M without the click?

Not really. Of ALPS, Cherry MX and buckling springs, the tactile point is located very high on the ALPS, low on the buckling springs and in the middle on the Cherry MX.
Black ALPS are heavier and more tactile than Cherry Browns -- not very comparable at all.

...with my tendency to type "hard" and rub my fingers across the home keys while at rest, i might get alot of accidental key-presses. Are these concerns valid? Its sooo hard to judge or choose without being able to try them out.

Don't worry about accidental key presses with browns. You may have to adjust your typing style a bit so that you don't bottom out too hard, though.

[gmorf33]

I have a bid on a cheap dell keyboard w/ the ALPS switches, so hopefully i'll win that and be able to test how those feel.  I appreciate the feedback so far, its helpful.

I might have to look into the clears.  When i first started my research, I didn't pay much heed to clears or reds, due to the simple fact they are near impossible to get at a price i'm willing to spend on a keyboard.   If they are a stiffer version of the browns, that might be exactly what i want (in theory).

I really wish there was a way to hook up the old dumb terminal model m we have laying around here lol.  Would be fun to clang away on that

[Lanx]

Membranes have more feedback than blacks, but that's because they have feedback.  Imo I would attempt to change my typinh style in favor of a lighter board. That's what I did when I first bought my filco brown, it took me a few months to where I wouldn't accidentally press keys, but it was all worth it in the end.

Ppl really have this issue? when i first got my browns i have never accidentally activated anything and not since either.
what do ppl do lean on the keyboards with their fingers? is this also an issue with bottoming out too as well then?

[MyNameIsDan]

Ppl really have this issue? when i first got my browns i have never accidentally activated anything and not since either.
what do ppl do lean on the keyboards with their fingers? is this also an issue with bottoming out too as well then?

I concur. I guess I too was a hard typer (not compared to my sister, when she types, she types like a total maniac its sooooo damn loud, and on a rubber dome too!) when I first got my filco browns. and while the keys were definitely helluva a lot lighter than my lycosa, I didn't have accidental keypress issues like some people seem to exaggerate on, they arent THAT light!

Also, (@ironman), I don't think its necessary to deliberately TRY to change your typing style, it'd just ruin the typing experience as a whole forcing things. Personally speaking, as well as some others around GH, your typing style will change itself eventually as your fingers get used to the lightness of the browns. I went from bottoming out 100% of the time to nearly only 50% of my keystrokes. Besides, its not a crime to bottom out a key ...... or is it? :S

@OP: the tactile feedback on the browns are VERY SUBTLE to not noticeable when you type hard on them. You can only feel it when you don't bottom out the keys. Again, its something you will realize if you end up with a cherry brown as your daily driver.

[washuai]

More tactility with less clack - definitely clears.  Well, getting a board with clears from Cherry Corp, is apparently easier than getting browns from them.  Deck may not be cheap, but they're obtainable and have a good return/warranty.

If buckling springs is your true love, you're just not gonna get the same thing from any other switch - stay clacky.  You can muffle the sound a Model M makes, there are some mods around here for that.

Highly tactile and non clicky (notice I didn't say quiet) - nearly doesn't exist given physics, and definitely not to be had on the cheap.  
Topre's have that smooth fall away feeling that provide more tactility than browns with less noise, so maybe 55g Topres would be a good fit, although you have the price issue.

[gmorf33]

hmm, clears are sounding really nice.  Too bad there's about 1 option available (and even it is out of stock until mid dec) that i can find (buying new anyway), and that's direct from Deck.  And that's nearly $200, don't really want to pay extra for all the led and fanciness.  I just want a good solid keyboard that fits my preference.  Anyone know of any other options for clears?

[gmorf33]

I think I'm just going to go with browns since there's more of a selection and no availability issues.  Looking at the Das and Filco's now.

At first I was stuck on keeping with what i'm used to - full sized with ten key; however, the more i think about it, the more i think i'd like a tenkeyless.  I've always found it annoying and uncomfortable having to have my right-hand mouse so far off centered, and tend to get shoulder strain after a week's worth of heavy computer use.   i can always buy a cheap 10-keypad that i stick off to the side for whenever i might need to use it.

Going 10-keyless puts me into Filco's camp, unless someone can point me to a Das 10-keyless (I don't see any on their site).   Also, does anyone know of any coupon codes or discounts for filco boards?

[gmorf33]

Elitekeyboards just RAISED prices.

I doubt you'll see any discounting this Xmas season.

As usual my timing is impeccable.....  :frusty:

[ironman31]

I think you're thinking too much about the off-center keyboard giving you shoulder strain. But then again you might be old enough to have to worry about that stuff .

[keyboardlover]

Elitekeyboards just RAISED prices.

I doubt you'll see any discounting this Xmas season.

Jeez what's up with the big price raise? Ever since I joined GH and started watching EK, I've noticed the prices there fluctuate all the time.

[ironman31]

I might get there one day, but right now I don't really mind reaching my arm over just a tad bit more to get to my mouse.

[gmorf33]

Its not that I'm overthinking it... its  just that its always been an ergonomic annoyance i could never get "just right"... it never occurred to me that i could get a 10-keyless board until i started doing some keyboard research here in the last week or so.   I've been using the same keyboard the last 15 years, the same keyboard from my first custom built PC.   So until now i never even felt the need to "research keyboards" and make the realization

[NewbieOneKenobi]

If anybody is interested in a Dell with black alps (as far as I can tell), I've recently bought 10 of them in a stock order (post-leasing units), in various states of abuse and I've started testing. I'm typing on one right now. It feels good, although it's less distinct from a rubber dome than, say, a buckling spring keyboard. They seem to be lighter than BS but not all that lite. They're clicky but not to the point of sparing you the bottoming out. I do like the feel, however. I still have to check the speeds and accuracy I can develop with them. They easily pull out 4-key rollover (using a USB converter, mind you) with qwert, uiop and asdf (though in random orders) but e.g. hjkl results in 1 key or none.

My initial impression is that they could develop great typing speeds if they were a little bit lighter. My left hand is slightly stronger and it fares better than the right one that's given to swifter strokes.

I still have to test the brown and black cherries that have arrived recently. And the two of the Dells that are older than the rest a produce a decidedly more metallic ping (more so than even my M, perhaps on par with an old terminal keyboard). One of them is old enough not to have Windows keys. Curiously, the oldest two are among the ones in the best condition.

(Incidentally, if anyone were interested in one of the Dells, I could swap one for something with a different switch.)

[gmorf33]

I just sent my ebay payment for my $4.99 dell  

[msiegel]

dude, you're getting a dell

[gmorf33]

So i've been using my Dell AT101w and loving it, especially since cleaning the keys giving me issues... however its been driving my girlfriend crazy lol.   Are the cherry mx browns much quieter than these black alps switches?  If i recall from some youtube videos they are, but its hard to judge actual real world loudness from videos.   I might have to start hunting for a cheap compaq w/ browns if they are.

[ironman31]

It depends if you bottom out or not, and whether you have plate mounted or pcb mounted browns. The pcb mounted ones are quieter because the bottoming out isn't as harsh.

[gmorf33]

i still bottom out about every keypress, but i suspect this will change over time as i get used to mechanical switches over rubber membranes.  The browns i've been looking at as keepers are either a filco or das.  Do those use pcb or steel plate?  HOw's the volumes on those badboys?

[ironman31]

filcos use plates, pretty sure das does too. Let's see, how can I best describe the sound of cherry browns.. ;lkjasd;flkjierup;lkjasdfa;lkj. If you don't bottom out it sounds very chattery, not too loud though. About the same volume as someone tapping their fingers on a desk. If you bottom out... ;lkjasdfkfjfjeirufja;lslskdjfjdkjs;... they turn into the same volume as if you were to turn those said tapping fingers over and start tapping with your fingernails on a desk.

That's about as best as i can describe the volume without actually being there.

And the videos/audio clips of keyboards I have found never really do the switch justice. Too many varying mics, some are deeper, some focus more on the higher frequencies.

Also, you could always sell a keyboard you don't like on the marketplace here, you'll get most of your money back at least.

[gmorf33]

Took the dell with me to work today, cause i just didn't want to type on my crappy hp membrane one... well my cube neighbors already hate me lol.  Even random passer-byers are giving me this look like "what the hell??" :embarassed:  Gonna hafta figure out a quieter mechanical situation.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

So i've been using my Dell AT101w and loving it, especially since cleaning the keys giving me issues... however its been driving my girlfriend crazy lol.   Are the cherry mx browns much quieter than these black alps switches?  If i recall from some youtube videos they are, but its hard to judge actual real world loudness from videos.   I might have to start hunting for a cheap compaq w/ browns if they are.

Yes, they are, but I could adjust my typing to make it louder on the Cherry browns than on the Dell. It depends how you type. The louder sound will not always be the more annoying, either. For example, my Cherry browns keyboard (Compaq) emits plasticky sounds, whereas the Dells tend to produce a clack-style kinda-metallic one (it's not the same on ever unit).

By the way, how did you clean the keyboard? Did you just unscrew the case and clean stuff there or did you remove the keycaps? (I'm assuming you didn't do anything more invasive.)

I'm glad you like the Dells. I'm particularly partial to them because of the way in which they are good keyboards for little cash.

(European users eager to have a Dell without paying $40 for cross-continental shipment can PM for details about getting some.)

Took the dell with me to work today, cause i just didn't want to type on my crappy hp membrane one... well my cube neighbors already hate me lol.  Even random passer-byers are giving me this look like "what the hell??" :embarassed:  Gonna hafta figure out a quieter mechanical situation.

Linear switches are pretty silent and it's possible to learn to type on tactile clicky stuff in a quiet way on purpose, e.g. when I try to type very loudly or very quietly on my Model M, you will hear the difference.

[ironman31]

Took the dell with me to work today, cause i just didn't want to type on my crappy hp membrane one... well my cube neighbors already hate me lol.  Even random passer-byers are giving me this look like "what the hell??" :embarassed:  Gonna hafta figure out a quieter mechanical situation.

Just get a Topre and get it over with, lol.

[gmorf33]

 For example, my Cherry browns keyboard (Compaq) emits plasticky sounds, whereas the Dells tend to produce a clack-style kinda-metallic one (it's not the same on ever unit).

Yeah, I think this is a big part of it.  The dell has that kind of echoing metallic sound that really adds to the "annoyance" factor for others.  I also notice its ALOT worse at work... must have much less sound dampening materials than i do in my little man-corner at home.

By the way, how did you clean the keyboard? Did you just unscrew the case and clean stuff there or did you remove the keycaps? (I'm assuming you didn't do anything more invasive.)

I pulled the caps, and disassembled the switch.  Blew off/out all the parts and the switch housing with canned air.   Put the switch back in place and it worked much better.  I've actually been doing it as i go as i notice certain keys having a less than smooth action or not quite registering properly.  The backspace key, backslash, and 'l' keys were troublesome today until i did the same maint. to them.

Linear switches are pretty silent and it's possible to learn to type on tactile clicky stuff in a quiet way on purpose, e.g. when I try to type very loudly or very quietly on my Model M, you will hear the difference.

I don't think i'll like the linears just due to the fact that i like that bit of tactility (but who knows, without ever having tried one i can't say for sure).  Someone wanna mail me a loner w/ blacks??  

Just get a Topre and get it over with, lol.

I wish i had that kinda cash to blow ;P  (without trying them first at least).

[Orphagn]

I just got a filco with cherry blacks and i'm really liking it for gaming.
Since I play mainly FPS I bottom out on just about every key I press.
I too type pretty hard and the blacks have been really nice for me. They are stiffer than my Logitech G15 keyboard, and I know it'll take some time to get used to, but I definitely like this keyboard.

[buffalobill]

Hmm. I've long missed my 1995 Model M which gave up a few years ago and I threw out. Pity, from what I've read recently, it could have been resurrected. However, it had a LOT of mileage on it and lasted me a good ten years, and wasn't new at the time.
A couple of months ago I took up an editing job and I've been feeling the frustrations mounting with the rubbish keyboards we're given. I know I can be quicker having done 110 wpm in the past, so I've been doing a lot of reading and research in recent weeks. My choice is now for the Filco brown keyless since I've never used the num pad and always found it a useless part. I learned to type on manual typewriters so I still whack those keys pretty hard. We'll see how it goes for the others around me. The right tools are very important for me, so I'm fine with buying my own KB for work (my LX7 mouse now lives there).  
I must say, the Das Keyboard looks soo sexy. If only they had a tenkeyless option.
One of the reasons I've decided on this Filco is the size of the backspace bar and the placement of the end and del buttons. These are all keys I use a lot. I use as many keyboard shortcuts as possible so that I use the mouse as little as possible during editing. Constantly switching to the mouse is a serious waste of time when you're operating in a time critical environment. I get so frustrated watching people using the mouse to move forward two characters. Gah!
It's a pity I can't try any of these KBs out before I buy but they have to be imported, so I hope/trust I've made the right choice. I think so but time will tell.

[buffalobill]

Double post