How likely am I going to enjoy a Topre if I'm in love with Blue Cherries?

[panda-R]

Thats right, I'm in love with Blue Cherries and if they were beautiful women... well I'd probably invite them to make me some sammichs but the whole thought of enjoying any different key switch than the blues is unthinkable.

Any thoughts?

[ironman31]

No idea, they're very different switches. They are for different moods too, imo.

[vicz]

I use a blue Cherry Filco at work and a Topre 86u at home. Very different switches, as ironman31 said, but both are very nice, and I enjoy the variety.

[elservo]

I use those two switches all the time.  Cherry Blues at work, but I always have my HHKB in my bag if I want to switch it up, which I do every day.  Both of them are great.  I primarily use my Filco for the numpad while I'm closing up and doing the paperwork.  Any amount of typing, text-wise, though, I usually get the HHKB out because the switches are just so pleasant for typing.

[NamelessPFG]

I haven't tried Cherry MX Blues just yet (it'll probably be a while before that Switch Try Numpad gets to my house), but Topre switches felt much as I expected-like rubber domes. Mostly because the main source of tactile feedback IS a rubber dome, albeit a carefully-designed one, and it's supposed to avoid the pitfall of traditional rubber dome switches only actuating electrically near the bottom by instead having its actuation point somewhere in the middle of the dome's buckling point.

It's rather smooth as far as switches go, partially because the buckling certainly isn't...sharp like a buckling spring, or maybe the Cherry MX Brown (when I can even feel the tactile bump, that is).

The other thing is that bottoming out doesn't feel as harsh on Topre for some reason. Perhaps it's because of that spring, though said spring is mostly to provide capacitance readings rather than affect the tactility.

[keyboardlover]

The truth is that no one fully understands the magic behind the topre switch...except for the little gnomes that build them

I think you'd like it - like people have said it's very different. A good way to tell is if you try a good, new Keytronic like a E03600U2 ($21.50). The feel is sort of like that, but 20x better.

[ironman31]

The truth is that no one fully understands the magic behind the topre switch...except for the little gnomes that build them

I think you'd like it - like people have said it's very different. A good way to tell is if you try a good, new Keytronic like a E03600U2 ($21.50). The feel is sort of like that, but 20x better.

So that officially means that Realforce keyboards are worth the price. (21.50 x 20 = 430) And they only cost 250! Amazing.

[wordfool]

FWIW I find is easier and quicker to type on my brown cherry Filco compared to my Realforce Topre. Not that the Topre is in any way a bad keyboard (and it is blissfully quiet), but for some reason my fingers prefer the brown cherries.

[panda-R]

welps imma getting my brown cherry board soon so I'll give those a go before I hit up the Topre since everyone here seems to like browns in some form or another.

[YpoCaramel]

How do browns compare to Topre? I want to get a HHKB Pro but I don't have  the time to fly to Japan just to try'em out.

[keyboardlover]

As far as resistance, I think they're fairly similar. But topres tend to be both quieter and much smoother. They have a softer landing and make a much nicer sound when they bottom out.

[ironman31]

How do browns compare to Topre? I want to get a HHKB Pro but I don't have  the time to fly to Japan just to try'em out.

I actually feel that the browns have less resistance (even though they technically don't). And not having a rubber dome that collapses after actuation point changes the feel dramatically. I find it much harder not to bottom out on either of my Topre boards than my Cherry browns.

[keyboardlover]

I actually feel that the browns have less resistance (even though they technically don't). And not having a rubber dome that collapses after actuation point changes the feel dramatically. I find it much harder not to bottom out on either of my Topre boards than my Cherry browns.

I agree with that.

[elbowglue]

How do browns compare to Topre? I want to get a HHKB Pro but I don't have  the time to fly to Japan just to try'em out.

Brown's will push your finger back deep into the stroke, whereas Topre's will not.  So if you are typing really hard (bottoming out) brown's give your fingers better "spring back" so you can move to the next letter.

45g Topre switches (and probably 55g switches too) have a snap when the dome collapses, to me it almost feel like a cherry blue snap.  Brown's don't.

Topres feel and sound really nice but I found cherry browns to be superior for my purposes, which is why I have sold both of my topre boards..

[ironman31]

I really love Topre, Buckling Spring, and Cherry Browns, but I can see how the change could destroy those who are not used to the crazy change.

[keyboardlover]

Like any switch, unfortunately you don't know if you like it until you try it. Realforces seem to be some of the best regarding resale value, if that helps your decision at all. Especially on GeekHack.

[ironman31]

If you think about it, those people not familiar with mechanical keyboards are more likely to enjoy topres more since they are the most like what they are accustomed to (rubber dome). I have had numerous friends and family members tell me they enjoy my Realforce much more than any of my other keyboards.

I'm sure I am not the first to think this, but I believe if one were just trying to find a fantastic keyboard and they had been using domes all their life, then they should just save the money in trying all the different types of switches and just buy a Realforce.

[patrickgeekhack]

If you think about it, those people not familiar with mechanical keyboards are more likely to enjoy topres more since they are the most like what they are accustomed to (rubber dome). I have had numerous friends and family members tell me they enjoy my Realforce much more than any of my other keyboards.

Could it be because the Real Force keys are very smooth when pressed? I have one Uncle who was very impressed with my Customizer 104, and one who was very impressed at how smooth the Real Force was to the touch.

[Lanx]

That's like saying you should only go out with people of your own race.

How boring.

Show Image

mixed kids are a crapshoot, they are only 2 things
1. really really cute
2. really really ugly

a lot of my friends are in mixed marriages, actually almost all of them. I honestly say this to them cuz they've come to expect honesty from me, and that's what i tell em, my fiancee thinks the same thing too.

[theferenc]

While I admit the polls do have some value, this is a very cherry MX oriented board, which explains why, in the polls, the commonly available cherry switches are all basically tied. But you'll notice that the topre switch comes in next, well ahead of the rest of the pack. Even the buckling springs, which is often billed as "the" switch to which all modern boards are compared.

Just sayin'.

[woody]

I am still waiting someone (EU) wanting to rent me a RF/HHKB for a week to see how it goes with my hands. :-)

Couple of days later I should receive Filco brownies. Gotta try different keyboards before settling on 1-2 units that give me most comfort, then most likely selling the rest. Just being mechanical doesn't solve anything - there are terrible ones.

Expensive search for comfort, that one.

[panda-R]

Maybe i should try a buckling spring first... now only if they made a buckling spring board that i want and is easy to get!

[kidchunks]

I am still waiting someone (EU) wanting to rent me a RF/HHKB for a week to see how it goes with my hands. :-)

Couple of days later I should receive Filco brownies. Gotta try different keyboards before settling on 1-2 units that give me most comfort, then most likely selling the rest. Just being mechanical doesn't solve anything - there are terrible ones.

Expensive search for comfort, that one.

I like your thinking :biggrin:. I'll eventually buy a torpe but don't wanna spoil myself just yet. Trying the cherries is fun atm!

Maybe i should try a buckling spring first... now only if they made a buckling spring board that i want and is easy to get!

Buckling springs are badass! I actually find myself excited to come home and start hammering at the keys. The sound it makes is like music to my ears. (wait those were my headsets).

[woody]

I'll eventually buy a torpe but don't wanna spoil myself just yet.

I am almost sure Topre won't be my cup of coffee, but I still want to give them a fair chance, instead of (me) being branded as Keyboard Racist.

I also have two ADB keyboards which I need for vintage devices. As mechanical keyboards they suck big time.

[ironman31]

OP: have you tried your blue cherry board with different keycaps? To me that changes the entire experience of typing on mx blues. Thicker caps I find to be more enjoyable. They feel a little more crisp and they have a higher pitch.

[wordfool]

I actually feel that the browns have less resistance (even though they technically don't). And not having a rubber dome that collapses after actuation point changes the feel dramatically. I find it much harder not to bottom out on either of my Topre boards than my Cherry browns.

+1... it's the bottoming out that I never seem to be able to avoid with the topre, and that is a big factor in typing speed. The Cherries definitely feel like they also have more "push back" as well, which helps. Buckling springs have the most push back, for obvious reasons, but also the most travel and most resistance. I find they are the most tiring keys for one's little fingers, especially after drinking the Cherry Koolaid.

Sound-wise, however, the clackity-clack of the brown cherries gets a little annoying compared to the soft "thock" of the topre keys. The buckling springs... well, they're legendary in the noise department.

[Voixdelion]

I'd actually like to hear some opinions from folks who tried a Topre and really didn't care for it at all.  Anybody actually actively DISlike the way they feel?  I actually have an involuntary reaction to rubber dome boards -- the regular cheapo kind, I mean - certainly seems that the Topre doesn't fall in the same category there.  But still, I'm so audio oriented that I'm sure the non-clickiness would contribute to my tactile interpretation.  Even to the point of my imagining the "ewww" feeling I get when I try to type on a rubber dome board now: "Like putting your hand in pudding..."

I'm curious how many people (if any) sank the 200 into a Topre and immediately regretted it and what they ended up liking instead.

[panda-R]

OP: have you tried your blue cherry board with different keycaps? To me that changes the entire experience of typing on mx blues. Thicker caps I find to be more enjoyable. They feel a little more crisp and they have a higher pitch.

not yet. I have some duckys coming that I can swap onto my blue filco and see how they are. Might have to look for some Cherry double shots later too!

[keyboardlover]

If you like clicky switches, you might not like a Topre (which I guess is the danger). I never did, and I always liked my (former) KeyTronic. Since I knew that the Topre was an excellent, high quality mechanical keyboard with a feel similar to a KeyTronic rubber dome, it made sense for me. And I absolutely love them. I've tried black alps, white alps, buckling springs and cherry browns and I still prefer Topre. I struggled with the price like most people, but since buying one I've bought more. And I find it really difficult to justify spending money on any other type of keyboard.

However, I also need a decent keyboard for my lifestyle; I spend the greater part of nearly every day typing/coding. So, it depends on your priorities too I think.

[patrickgeekhack]

My experience is beautiful women are poor cooks.

Unless they are named Nigella.

Or Giada

[Voixdelion]

What?  You like rubbernecking at car wrecks too?...

lol - I didn't mean it that way.  But it did cross my mind that there might be some psychological incentive to grow to like a keyboard that cost that much even if you really don't actually like it at first.   I think I'm not on board with the idea that "getting used to" a board will change my liking of the thing to any significant degree.  Instead I think its more like giving myself a week to justify the expense by finding reasons to appreciate it where I might not have bothered or cared to if it was a fraction of the cost.  

In a book I read, there was a discussion about how Truth, once seen, cannot be unseen and used a pointillism-ish rendering of a common and very familiar thing (presented in a in a manner similar to a Rorschach inkblot)as an example of this and also of the difference between knowing in your mind and knowing in your heart.   Though I didn't immediately recognize the picture at first glance, I was careful to avoid trying to convince myself of anything I might have thought it to be because the point of the example was that if you were not hindered by your own thoughts, it was actually quite plainly obvious what the image was.  Rather than start asking myself "is it a ____?" (insert this or that the way people do when they are guessing at something; when they KNOW, they state without question or hesitation, "Oh! It's a ____"   Period.) I told myself that I might not actually see the obvious thing if I was afraid of not seeing it because of my anxiety over trying to see it.  Of course then, the immediate effect of accepting that I might not see it clearly was that I immediately recognized the image.   It was an elegant lesson in what real knowing feels like vs the ego-centric alternative that we, unfortunately, more often operate under with the impression that it is real.  What I found even more interesting and quite surprising was that my Dad, who gave me the book, has not yet recognized the image, and I was quite certain he would have done so almost immediately [as was he, which is probably the exact reason he has not done so.]  It appears that Young Grasshopper has snatched the pebble from the Master's hand this time.

I think I would trust the Topre reputation more if there were less pressure from the ego to like something for which we just paid a hefty sum of cash.  The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if maybe the prohibitive pricing is not entirely due to technological complexity of the hardware, but more so (or at least in part) due to some very shrewd marketing strategy which makes it nearly impossible to try one without buying it first on faith.

...That's what makes keyboards interesting.  Unlike a lot of other computing devices it's pretty subjective and individual.

I think you may have just touched on the crux of why I like this forum so much as well.  This is a lovely juxtaposition of the precise and exact emotionless rationality of the computer and the whimsical subjective possibilities inherent in the heart.  Makes sense that the focus is the interface between man and machine.

[patrickgeekhack]

In a book I read, there was a discussion about how Truth, once seen, cannot be unseen and used a pointillism-ish rendering of a common thing (presented in a in a manner similar to a Rorschach inkblot)as an example of this and also of the difference between knowing in your mind and knowing in your heart.  

I think there’s definitely a psychological element in justifying a Topre. In general, people will tend to justify the decisions they made, as the right decisions. I say in general, because there are always exceptions. We are aware of the results of what our mind/brain thinking, but not how they got to that result.

[panda-R]

I've been typing on browns since I've got my ducky and although they have their positive points, they've helped me to love my blue cherries that much more!

BLUE CHERRIES 4 LIFE!

[elbowglue]

Having tried cherry blues, cherry browns, BS, rubber domes, clicky alps, tactile alps, when I tried the Topre 86u and the Topre 101, I felt they felt nice but were not for me.  My wife who uses a pink filco blue cherry felt much more strongly that these topres were not for her, thought in general they just sucked...  better than standard rubber dome keyboards, but she felt they could not shake a stick at blue cherries.

My biggest gripe is that topres don't push your fingers back deep in the throw (past the activation point) like spring based switches.  The best part of topres is that the 45g switches snap almost like blue cherries.  I highly doubt topres would feel the same after prolonged use however given the whole mechanism is based on a rubber dome vs spring and plastic.

Vote me in for someone who has tried topre's and didn't love them.

Omg, I posted the same damn thing in post #14  of this thread.  I need more sleep.

[panda-R]

?  But you haven't tried Topres.  

It's like those Koalas  that only eat Eucalyptus from certain trees.

It's like only eating Bamboo!!!!!!!!!!!  Are you a bear or a man!!

wait, are you telling me i should give up my healthy vegetarian diet consisting of bamboo, carrot cake and various fruits to enjoy the meaty delicacy from Australia known as the 'Koala'?

[Ki Bored]

Well, I have both Blue Cherries (Das) and the Topre 103UB (55g). I recently bought three keyboards to test out because I couldn't make up my mind, and I finally just got fed up and decided the only way to find out for sure was to actually pony up and buy three of the major switches on the market today. So I bought a Das, a Topre and a Unicomp Space Saver Buckling Spring. I may post a review soon comparing all three, once I've made up my mind which I like best.

My background and experience has only been with cheap rubber domes.  So I don't know if my impressions would mean more or less to you.

The Topre switches, like others have already commented, are the most like rubber domes. But very well-built rubber domes. They seem to travel slightly further than most rubber domes, but instead of a mushy landing at the bottom, they are firmer and want to spring back up a bit more. The keycaps have about a 1-2 ml smaller surface area than standard keycaps. I'm not sure if this has anything to do with Asian design for smaller finger tips, but it was something I noticed. They keys do not wobble or have any side play, as on some cheap keyboards. They go straight up and down. There is definitely no 'click', no actuation point, no bump, no buckle, no snap --- just a smooth descent down... and then back up, like a bungee cord. Because there is none of the aforementioned, a heavier (55g) keyforce weight helps somewhat with the tactile feel. However, make no mistake, the Topre is NOT a mechanical keyboard in any sense, as there is almost no kinesthetic feedback. The black keycap model I bought has letters which are almost invisible under ordinary light. They are essentially blank. But if you squint or look at the keys at the right angle, or have brighter light, you can make out what the letters are. I haven't made up my mind about the Topre yet. It is definitely as quiet as any standard rubber dome, perhaps ever so slightly more audible given its 'thwocky' sound.

If you like blue cherries, I mean really like them, ( as you state) my instinct is to tell you the Topre switch probably won't be your cup of tea.

Hope this helps.

[woody]

Good points.

[itlnstln]

I'm so in love with my Topre, I switch back to Cherry browns regularly.  Topre makes a nice 'board, but Cherry makes a better switch (IMO).  Now if I could get all of that in one package...

[keyboardlover]

I think Topre is a better switch because it feels better and requires much less maintenance. Also, you're less likely to break something pulling Topre keycaps than Cherry keycaps
Why do you think Cherry brown is a better switch?

[itlnstln]

I'm not so sure about the maintenance thing (Cherry: 50M key presses, Topre: 30M), but for one, I like the force curve better (resistance builds to the tactile point/activation where Topres greet you with all the force up front).  Also, the springiness in Cherrys provide some energy return which helps with fatigue.  That's not to say Topres suck.  In fact, I really enjoy them, but I think Cherrys are better.

Ask Ripster about breaking a Topre spacebar (he also did a pretty good job on a Cherry blue switch, too).  I don't worry about pulling Cherry caps; I can do that with my fingers on some caps.  ALPS are what I worry about.

[ironman31]

Another thing to note: the "pushback" of the browns make them seem lighter than a topre (speaking from experience only with the 45g HHKB)

[panda-R]

do the browns in some way give a feeling similiar to a topre?

[patrickgeekhack]

do the browns in some way give a feeling similiar to a topre?

When I first got my Topre this was how it felt to me. It was closest to the brown Cherry than to anything else I've tried before.  But after I got use to the Topre, I started to notice a big difference. The Topre requires much of the force to get the keys moving. Once they are on the move, they are very light. For the brown, the force required gradually increased up to the tactile bump.

[itlnstln]

do the browns in some way give a feeling similiar to a topre?

Just in overall resistance, but in all honesty, no.  Topres are hard to describe.  They have some similarity to rubber domes in that, well, they are rubber domes, so they share some of the force curve characteristics (resistance at the top of the stroke).  They are, however, fundamentally different on other levels:

-Topres are much, much lighter
-Topres are much, much smoother
-Topres do not need to be bottomed out to activate
-Topres' keys to not wobble as much (might depend on the 'board in comparison)
-Topres are somewhat quieter (mostly due to the last point)

Are they worth the money?  Not really, IMO.  Are they a fantastic switch?  Absolutely.  If you have the opportunity to try before you buy, do so.  I am happy with my purchase, but I do pine for some Cherry brown goodness for time to time, because, as Ironman said, the springiness does make the Cherrys seem a little lighter than the Topres.  I also like the "building" resistance more so than all the resistance at the top of the stroke.  That said, the Topres are so light that they don't cause anywhere near the fatigue of rubber domes and they don't feel quite like them either.

[itlnstln]

HEY, look who's on OCN now!!!  Fat_Italian_Stallion is an IMPOSTER!!!!

Show Image

Is Fat Italian Stallion like Bad Santa?

That whole forum is an imposter.  ****er.  I bet it's webwit.  He's such a kidder.

[panda-R]

interesting. thanks for the info dooooooooooods. Imma still working on making my blue cherry experience even better. Gonna swap my PBT caps onto my filco soon and see how I like it.

[itlnstln]

I can assure you Webwit is easy to spot and remains the same.

That's the webwit I know and love.  I wish he would come back.  I would go over to OCN, but I already use up all my geek time here.

[panda-R]

Chinese Duckys on a Japanese designed Filco?  Seems culturally insensitive.

Show Image

I'd hit it!