Author Topic: CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating  (Read 20576 times)

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Offline Moogle Stiltzkin

  • Posts: 826
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #50 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 08:53:08 »
Thx.
"So long as we do not depend on the facts entirely, incomplete knowledge is better than complete ignorance."

:bounce:

Current gaming keyboard: Ducky DK-9008 with Cherry Beige/White doubleshots (Cherry Mx Brown)

For my 2nd pc: Cherry G80-1095 HAU Revision 00 (Cherry Mx Black)

Dye subbed keys harvested from NCR 3299-k440-v001 G80-3007 SAU. Casing donated to Mike.
[/FONT]

Free mechanical keyboard + other gear click here![/color]

Offline muchadoaboutnothing

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 667
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #51 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 09:24:07 »
It seems a war is starting to brew in the CNET comments on the user review...

Quote from: Moogle Stiltzkin;260103
I'm starting to doubt i will get my keyboard before Christmas.


Sorry Moogle, that sucks :|

Offline Moogle Stiltzkin

  • Posts: 826
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #52 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 09:34:04 »
What can i say. I'm a prolific forumer :X it's a habit.


Quote from: muchadoaboutnothing;260130

Sorry Moogle, that sucks :|


No worries. the Christmas turkey will cheer me up. If all goes well; i will receive a Kindle 3 for Christmas to make up for it /pray
« Last Edit: Thu, 09 December 2010, 09:37:24 by Moogle Stiltzkin »
"So long as we do not depend on the facts entirely, incomplete knowledge is better than complete ignorance."

:bounce:

Current gaming keyboard: Ducky DK-9008 with Cherry Beige/White doubleshots (Cherry Mx Brown)

For my 2nd pc: Cherry G80-1095 HAU Revision 00 (Cherry Mx Black)

Dye subbed keys harvested from NCR 3299-k440-v001 G80-3007 SAU. Casing donated to Mike.
[/FONT]

Free mechanical keyboard + other gear click here![/color]

Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #53 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 09:57:07 »
Quote from: ripster;260131
Bummer.

Moogle, you will be the first Geekhacker to hit 500 posts without having ther first Mechanical Keyboard.


Victheslik might have him beat to that distinction.  It was awhile before he got an HHKB.  Back then, though, there wasn't much that was easy to buy.


Offline keyboardlover

  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #54 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 10:40:49 »
I replied to that loser with my own follow-up and review... :D

Edit: Calling all Realforce fans! Please sign up on CNet and do the same! If you love Realforce you know that this guy's user review is pure trollage. Let's all submit our own real enthusiast reviews and show everyone how good these keyboards really are!
« Last Edit: Thu, 09 December 2010, 11:26:05 by keyboardlover »

Offline cbf123

  • Posts: 82
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #55 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 11:15:02 »
Quote from: Cheese101;260049
whats the big deal with USB ports on keyboards?
people really care about that crap? All desktops have a couple of USB ports on the front of the machine nowdays anyway.


The keyboard is the closest thing to most users, and so is the logical place to plug in all sorts of removable storage, sync media players or phones, and other sorts of sporadic temporary connections.  My keyboard doesn't have USB ports, but my monitor does and it's very handy.

If the computer is tucked away somewhere and hard to route wires to, it's simpler to plug the mouse (and maybe a game controller) into the keyboard and then run a single cable from the keyboard to the computer.
« Last Edit: Thu, 09 December 2010, 11:17:18 by cbf123 »
Daily drivers are:
Microsoft Natural (the original, and still going strong)
Microsoft Natural Elite

Offline muchadoaboutnothing

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 667
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #56 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 11:27:21 »
Nice reviews from the Realforce users.

Also, he replied to you keyboardlover.

EDIT: It's appearing on some refreshes and not others so I screenshotted it.

« Last Edit: Thu, 09 December 2010, 11:30:18 by muchadoaboutnothing »

Offline theferenc

  • Posts: 1327
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #57 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 11:35:48 »
Quote from: cbf123;260184
The keyboard is the closest thing to most users, and so is the logical place to plug in all sorts of removable storage, sync media players or phones, and other sorts of sporadic temporary connections.  My keyboard doesn't have USB ports, but my monitor does and it's very handy.

If the computer is tucked away somewhere and hard to route wires to, it's simpler to plug the mouse (and maybe a game controller) into the keyboard and then run a single cable from the keyboard to the computer.


Except for one small problem that everyone overlooks. Many common flash drives can't get enough power from keyboard hubs. Nor can portable hard drives, iPhones, iPods, Zunes, etc.

Your monitor's USB hub is powered. Keyboard hubs are not. If you need one, they are inexpensive, and really quite small. Often they even come with the necessary items to mount them to the back of your monitor.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline ironman31

  • Posts: 834
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #58 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 11:42:43 »
O well, I guess the guy just doesn't like the keyboard. Too bad for him.
Keyboards:
IBM Model M Space Saving Keyboard (Used), HHKB Pro 2 (White, Lettered), Realforce 87U all-45g in White, Filco Majestouch 2 TKL with Cherry MX Browns, Model F PC/ATNoppoo Choc Mini (MX Browns), Model F XT, IBM Model M 1397735 (bought NIB), (2) Siig Minitouch (GHSS) one with XM, one with complicated ALPs (modded),2 Dell AT101W, Cherry G80-11900HRMUS (modded with MX browns)



Pointing Devices:
Logitech G500, Evoluent VerticalMouse 3, Logitech G5, CST 2545W, Microsoft IntelliMouse Trackball, Logitech M570, Logitech MX revolution


Offline keyboardlover

  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #59 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 11:43:43 »
Quote from: muchadoaboutnothing;260186
Nice reviews from the Realforce users.
Also, he replied to you keyboardlover.


Lol - check out my reply to him:

Quote from: keyboardlover
@oxide_52 - the problems you experienced with this keyboard are known in the computer world as "PEBKAC" problems - "Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair".
« Last Edit: Thu, 09 December 2010, 11:46:05 by keyboardlover »

Offline Lanx

  • Posts: 1915
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #60 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 13:40:08 »
Ok i'll just use examples from the same industry to illustrate evolution and included features.
You won't a computer case that is beige because we've evolved passed that ugly color.
for computer cases that 100$ up
you'll find that they all have front/top access ports
have some form of cable management /routing
the industry has adopted a bottom mounted psu scheme
has painted the inside some color (or left aluminum)
has at least 4 places to place 1 fan if not multiple fans and includes as many.

some 150$ cases:
definently has grommet holes for watercooling in the back (nasty/ugly but whatever)
have some kind of cage system for hard drives
have included some type of sound/vibration dampening for the hard drives, rubber grommet mounts/ bungie cords
have a special "hardware tray"
dust covers
removeable main board
big cutout for easy cpu/heatsink installation.

the features i listed are "extras" that case companies will include because they have become so ubiquitous that customers have come to find them as "standard".

Offline fuzzybaffy

  • Posts: 553
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #61 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 14:21:35 »
Quote from: Lanx;260228
Ok i'll just use examples from the same industry to illustrate evolution and included features.
You won't a computer case that is beige because we've evolved passed that ugly color.
for computer cases that 100$ up
you'll find that they all have front/top access ports
have some form of cable management /routing
the industry has adopted a bottom mounted psu scheme
has painted the inside some color (or left aluminum)
has at least 4 places to place 1 fan if not multiple fans and includes as many.

some 150$ cases:
definently has grommet holes for watercooling in the back (nasty/ugly but whatever)
have some kind of cage system for hard drives
have included some type of sound/vibration dampening for the hard drives, rubber grommet mounts/ bungie cords
have a special "hardware tray"
dust covers
removeable main board
big cutout for easy cpu/heatsink installation.

the features i listed are "extras" that case companies will include because they have become so ubiquitous that customers have come to find them as "standard".


Your examples are fine, but you kind of missed my point. Yes, many companies will offer more features as "standard" as time goes on, but there are ALSO, other companies that, rather than offering smaller, extra features, offer refinement and improved quality in the features they already have, at a higher price point. It's up to the consumer to decide whether or not they want to pay for the extra features.
« Last Edit: Thu, 09 December 2010, 16:09:19 by fuzzybaffy »

Offline Mr. Perfect

  • Posts: 380
  • Location: United States
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #62 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 14:37:00 »
I'm sure he immediately ignored anything you where saying as soon as he read "idiot" and switched to internet argument mode. Which is OK if you're just looking to argue, but it's not going to persuade him to give the Realforce a second shot.

Quote from: Moogle Stiltzkin;260018
The way i see it the rating should be for the most basic and important features of what makes a keyboard first and foremost.


Primary ratings

1. Key print type: silk screened; laser etched; dye sublimated; double shots ?
2. key tech: rubberdome; mechanical switch; topre ?
3. build quality: plastic used; durability of casing, keycaps, controller,NKRO tests; ghosting etc etc....
4. price: Are you getting your bang for buck when considering all the pointers mentioned so far when considering the primary ratings; followed by secondary ratings as an afterthought ? For me personally; keyboards such as Ducky/Filco/Leopold meet the basic requirements i need. A Topre is something more refined for typing. So for myself i'd vote for the former as being more bang for buck than say a Topre; but thats usually up to everyone to decide for themselves.


Secondary ratings

1. lighting = None; or like G15 standard lighting; or better quality lighting like say Deck Legend and Razer Black widow with leds for each individual keys ??

2. macros = e.g. like Razer etc

3. usb = usb ports for your coffee mug warmers etc

etc etc...

4. braided cords


So the main ratings is what should determine if the keyboard is good or not :X secondary ratings is other things to consider but is of less importance as far as the function of a keyboard is concerned.


I agree completely. The problem is most people outside of Geek Hack don't have any idea what those primary features are. Before finding this site, all I could see was that some keyboards where cheaper then others or that they would sometimes drop a key. I did not know what mechanical switches where, how key rollover worked, how key legends where created, what plastics keycaps where made of, or anything like that. If it had 104 keys on it, it was a keyboard. :happy: If it had more then 104 keys, lights, an LCD, USB ports, etc it was it was a gimmicky board and was ignored. I'm glad most mech boards don't have those features, and focus on build quality.
Mr. Perfect - A name fraught with peril.

G80-8113HRBUS MX Clears, FC200R MX Clears, RK-9000v2 MX Blues.

Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #63 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 14:37:04 »
This is exactly why I don't evangelize keyboards and try to convert them.  It's like arguing which one is better Popeye's, KFC, or Church's.  It's all about peoples' opinions and what they like.  Really, there is nothing functionally better between keyboards of different switch types, including rubber domes.  They all send a signal to the PC, it's all about how you want your finger to feel from the beginning to the end of the stroke and the sound you want to hear while it happens.  If you don't really care how it feels, then what's left?  Features.  If you don't really care about horsepower, then it's all about the cup holders, seat material, a/c, whatever.  Don't blame the review for their opinions, and for ****'s sake, stop feeding the trolls.


Offline keyboardlover

  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #64 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 14:47:17 »
My problem is that the review was stupid, completely based on opinion and not objective in any way. It's totally misleading. I'm not looking to evangelize - just to point out what this other person did not and hopefully help anyone interested to make a more informed decision.

Offline johnnysasaki

  • Posts: 54
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #65 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 14:58:16 »
I think this whole problem is caused by two very different kind of consumers coming together to form their opinions about a premium product.

There are two kinds of quality/value, and that's where the problem lies. There's horizontal/breadth value, which involves things that are order qualifiers, but not order winners. Vertical/depth quality deals with order winners and how much development has gone into those features.

Qualifiers are features that get you to consider an item, but not necessarily choose that item over a competitor. For example, an order qualifier for a particular car is that it can take you across town on a tank of gas and starts up in normal winter temperatures. Great, you can consider this car. But if the manufacturer made a new car where the gas tank is twice as large and figured out a way to have the car start up in extreme-cold weather, it wouldn't really do any more to convince you to buy that new car over first one that does the what you need (assuming you live near gas stations and not in the Arctic) already.

Winners are features that will justify purchasing one option over another—hence, it "wins" the order. In the car example, this might look like more comfortable seating or better mileage, because these contribute directly to your driving experience and overall value in a linear way. If fuel efficiency matters to you, a car with better mileage will cause you to pick that one over one with average mileage. If you care about comfort, a car with an extremely comfy seat will beat out a car with just comfy seats. In this case, further improvement in winners has bearing on persuading consumers to choose the product.

Now back to the boards. One way to look at it is that some consumers are looking for horizontal value—they want tons and tons of features that don't add to the product's main utility but add to their idea of total value. This would be all the fluffy features, like having backlighting when you type in a well-lit room, or USB ports for your coffee mug, or dedicated extra keys for every conceivable action for every app you use. None of these things really improve the typing experience, but their convenience sort of appeals to some/most consumers.

Then there are us badass people here on Geekhack, who (mostly) buy keyboards because we plan on... you know, using them to type on. We would pay a lot of attention to the vertical dimension of value—we want our boards to feel comfortable while we type, to last longer than our housepets, to be very loud (or quiet), and to be infinitely reliable. Point is, we have very specific needs with regards to the core functionality of our boards, things most people don't even bother to notice, much less think and talk about. I like to say, we care about what makes a keyboard a keyboard.

Anyway, that's why people like that reviewer and the user gave a Topre board such a crappy rating. They are looking for all the wrong features/indicators of quality, according to our standards. They are breadth-consumers, and not depth-consumers. In terms of order winners and qualifiers, they have their priorities reversed.

To breadth-consumers, order qualifiers are winners, if you can cram in enough of them. This is probably mostly because of ignorance—if there are no other dimensions by which we measure quality, then the only way to add value is to cram in more qualifiers. They actually look at quantity of qualifiers as an order winner since they may be unaware of anything else.

To Geekhackers, the switches in themselves are the winning aspect of the board—the feel is second to none, they are reliable, etc... (the rest of the usually cited reasons why HHKB and Realforce are so great). We look at core functionality—how delicious is the typing experience on the board?—to base our purchase decisions on. This is why some of us don't care about frilly things like media keys or backlighting—at least not until we are talking about boards that are otherwise identical in terms of switches, build quality, etc... It's not that USB ports and volume controls don't matter at all—it's just that they (may) only begin to matter after you sort out the important things first, like what switches you'll use, how will they be mounted, is the board sturdy, how are the caps made, etc...

Anyway, long story short, you've got two kinds of consumers (breadth vs depth, layman vs expert) looking to get very different things (more order qualifiers vs better order winners) to spend their money on. I am of the persuasion that as you become more knowledgable about the product category, you will naturally move from breadth to depth consumption, but some/many people are often content with blissful ignorance (and I mean that in a non-condescending way).

If you've never tried a mech-board and you haven't had any problems with rubber-domes, don't look into switching. You'll save lots of money (though really, you'd be missing out hard). :wink:
« Last Edit: Thu, 09 December 2010, 15:00:49 by johnnysasaki »
Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless NKRO Otaku (Brown)
HHKB Pro. 2 Otaku (white)
Logitech VX Revo
Mac Mini (Mid 2010)

Offline ironman31

  • Posts: 834
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #66 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 17:32:37 »
We should stop caring about the random user reviewer
Keyboards:
IBM Model M Space Saving Keyboard (Used), HHKB Pro 2 (White, Lettered), Realforce 87U all-45g in White, Filco Majestouch 2 TKL with Cherry MX Browns, Model F PC/ATNoppoo Choc Mini (MX Browns), Model F XT, IBM Model M 1397735 (bought NIB), (2) Siig Minitouch (GHSS) one with XM, one with complicated ALPs (modded),2 Dell AT101W, Cherry G80-11900HRMUS (modded with MX browns)



Pointing Devices:
Logitech G500, Evoluent VerticalMouse 3, Logitech G5, CST 2545W, Microsoft IntelliMouse Trackball, Logitech M570, Logitech MX revolution


Offline muchadoaboutnothing

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 667
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #67 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 18:31:37 »
Wikipedia on fan death

Apparently South Koreans believe (for a variety of reasons) that a fan will kill you if left on overnight while you sleep, so fans in South Korea tend to be sold with huge letters indicating the timer (in minutes).

Offline Lanx

  • Posts: 1915
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #68 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 18:42:57 »
you really don't have to specify skoreans since you'll never hear anything about nkoreans unless they start a war and you'll never meet a nkorean unless they conquer us. Any and all korean contact/culture will always be skorean.

On a related note korean dramas also say that you can work yourself to exhaustion and faint and the cure is to goto the hospital and have a humidifier pointed at your face, cuz a humidifier will heal anything.

Offline Shuki

  • Posts: 252
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #69 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 19:01:21 »
Quote from: itlnstln;260249
It's like arguing which one is better Popeye's, KFC, or Church's.


Well Popeye's lack extra features such as "chicken on ice"


Offline ynih

  • Posts: 112
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #70 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 23:35:07 »
Quote from: cbf123;260184
The keyboard is the closest thing to most users, and so is the logical place to plug in all sorts of removable storage, sync media players or phones, and other sorts of sporadic temporary connections.  My keyboard doesn't have USB ports, but my monitor does and it's very handy.

If the computer is tucked away somewhere and hard to route wires to, it's simpler to plug the mouse (and maybe a game controller) into the keyboard and then run a single cable from the keyboard to the computer.


I agree 100% in what you're saying, but a keyboard USB hub should not be a basis of a review, even by a part, as it's not a necessity, just looks a bit silly especially if you can just use your monitor's USB plugs...heh
Keyboards: (2) FKBN87MC/EB | (2) FKBN87M/EB | (1) FKBN87ML/EB | (1) FKBN87Z/EB | (1) FKBN104M/AI | (1) FKBN104MC/AI | (1) FKB104M/EB | (1) RK-9000 | (1) RF 86U SE05C0 all 45g modded | (1) HHKB 2 Pro PD-KB400W

Feedback: GeekHack 1 & 2 | eBay | HeatWare

Offline Lanx

  • Posts: 1915
CNET Reviews 55g Realforce, gives it an average rating
« Reply #71 on: Fri, 10 December 2010, 00:03:08 »
Quote from: ripster;260370


Once you start going down the road of worrying about CNET user reviews you'll go down to Newegg and finally to the cesspool of Amazon reviews!!   PULL OUT NOW!

every review site should have the "most helpful" review like amazon, then you don't have to read through a few posts like
"i would have given it 5 stars, but i took 1 away cuz amazon delivered it after christmas"