Author Topic: Is the ANSI Layout Endangered? (Read 18537 times)

quadibloc · « **on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 00:34:50 »

Here in Canada, I've seen for a couple of years now stores which have only or mostly ISO-layout laptops in stock. I find that annoying, and I assumed the cause of that is because importers want to cover the Quebec market, the French-Canadian keyboard being ISO.

But I've recently seen a newsgroup post from someone who is saying that he is experiencing this, apparently in the United States.

I don't think there's a connection with the new ISO 9995 arrangement, which will offer shifts for extra characters, something like a U.S. International keyboard on steroids, but without turning ' ` " and ~ into potential dead keys - as someone had suggested.

EverythingIBM · « **Reply #1 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 01:51:09 »

I've seen plenty of ANSI. It's probably because of laptops. I noticed many laptops have the STUPID european enter key. It infuriates me when I see that pathetic vertically long enter key.

More and more people seemingly are getting laptops rather than full fledged desktops. I'm a desktop person though.

So, it's probably just all the laptop influence.

turbocharged · « **Reply #2 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 02:10:35 »

Not in the US...ANSI is king here and I don't see that changing.

The EU enter/delete key setup infuriates me (and most people I know). If they changed the enter/delete keys then I doubt people would complain.

7bit · « **Reply #3 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 02:12:03 »

Quote from: EverythingIBM;266588

I've seen plenty of ANSI. It's probably because of laptops. I noticed many laptops have the STUPID european enter key. It infuriates me when I see that pathetic vertically long enter key.

Same for me. The big IBM 122 key terminal board can get away with that, but on a tiny laptop I really don't understand that waste of space.

Here in Germany and most other European countries which have the stupid enter key in their layout, it is next to impossible to find a laptop with ANSI layout.

Surely, for some manufactureres it is much cheaper to produce only one style (unfortunatly the wrong one).

bpiphany · « **Reply #4 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 02:21:03 »

I like the big enter... feels reaffirming to smash at the end of inputting something smart =D And a third layer is sort of non-optional to us swedes anyhow. In our layout there are other more useless keyes to remap the potential loss of "\|" to.

EverythingIBM · « **Reply #5 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 02:32:17 »

Quote from: 7bit;266590

Same for me. The big IBM 122 key terminal board can get away with that, but on a tiny laptop I really don't understand that waste of space.

Here in Germany and most other European countries which have the stupid enter key in their layout, it is next to impossible to find a laptop with ANSI layout.

Surely, for some manufactureres it is much cheaper to produce only one style (unfortunatly the wrong one).

The terminal it really doesn't matter; and you can always change the enter key to a proper horizontal one.

But yeah. Squeezing the enter key really small in a vertical fashion just makes it harder to find. Habitually I tap the enter key on its utmost left side: this allows my hands to not move very far. It just makes sense to have a long horizontal key... what, it's not like I move my hands UP AND DOWN that an enter key in that fashion is needed...

majestouch · « **Reply #6 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 02:55:25 »

The ANSI-type layout with single height Enter key is surely competing to be if not already the most popular and fastest growing keyboard layout in the world given that the Chinese use it as well.

I find the ISO layout and the various "Euro" variations amusing considering that the Chinese can type 30,000 different characters using the ANSI layout, but those smug Westerners require dedicated keys for 4 vowels with umlauts or whatnot.

bpiphany · « **Reply #7 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 03:01:51 »

There are ~100 keys on any full size keyboard... That doesn't really make a difference. The funny characters are often as common in typing as your 26. But yes, learning 30000 symbols to start with is impressive =) But comparing the problem of fitting them to a western keyboard and making room for a couple of extra wovels is kind of silly =P

db_Iodine · « **Reply #8 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 03:03:03 »

I have no problem using ANSI layout and those damn umlauts äöå. I really prefer the enter and Lshift keys of the ANSI layout. that alone is enough reason for me to keep using this layout. The other big reason is keyboard availability in ISO layouts. Ekaros can probably tell more of his frustration with the lack of new ISO layout mechanical keyboards. Specifically SF-layout keyboards.

Ekaros · « **Reply #9 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 03:06:40 »

Quote from: db_Iodine;266606

I have no problem using ANSI layout and those damn umlauts äöå. I really prefer the enter and Lshift keys of the ANSI layout. that alone is enough reason for me to keep using this layout. The other big reason is keyboard availability in ISO layouts. Ekaros can probably tell more of his frustration with the lack of new ISO layout mechanical keyboards.

Localisation is a rare thing...

Of course I would be happy with ANSI too, if our keyboards wouldn't have to have useless letters like Q W Z X B Å, I mean why why something stupid like W. Can't you english-world realy do with one v?

bpiphany · « **Reply #10 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 03:11:32 »

I do like the extra width shift of the ANSI layout though, and having enter a bit closer to my right pinky. I still like it to be double rows. I think it is a more profound problem with the basic layout to start with.. I'm working on that... =)

vegaman · « **Reply #11 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 03:31:51 »

I spend a lot of time in bash so the \| key is essential to me and I get confused when I'm on an ISO layout board. ANSI is much better for me and there's plenty of laptops with ANSI layout here, but there's others with ISO boards too for some reason.

Ekaros · « **Reply #12 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 04:06:11 »

Quote from: vegaman;266616

I spend a lot of time in bash so the \| key is essential to me and I get confused when I'm on an ISO layout board. ANSI is much better for me and there's plenty of laptops with ANSI layout here, but there's others with ISO boards too for some reason.

In the end it's pretty much what you have gotten used to.

db_Iodine · « **Reply #13 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 04:09:30 »

Quote from: Ekaros;266621

In the end it's pretty much what you have gotten used to.

This. Also most computer users in the world use the ANSI layout, so it surely isn't going anywhere.

elef · « **Reply #14 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 04:10:11 »

Quote from: majestouch;266602

I find the ISO layout and the various "Euro" variations amusing considering that the Chinese can type 30,000 different characters using the ANSI layout, but those smug Westerners require dedicated keys for 4 vowels with umlauts or whatnot.

That's a really silly way of looking at it.
I'm Hungarian, we have 9 accented letters in addition to the letters of the English alphabet. A lot of them are in the top right corner area you can only reach with your right little finger, one is in the bottom left corner. The upshot is that it is possible (barely) to give each character its own key and allow reasonably normal typing. 3 letters are near the backspace key which is pretty awful, but it's still better than resorting to keycombos. I mean, would you like to have to press, say, AltGr-o to get a u letter? and Shift-AltGr-o to get a capital U? Of course not.
Obviously, the Chinese had no chioce, there is no practical way of accommodating all their characters. That's a totally different situation.

On another note, I hate the small ANSI enter key with a fiery passion. When I bought my laptop, I made sure it had a proper big enter.
Part of the reason for the tall enter in the ISO layout may be that we have another key between the L and the enter. On an ANSI keyboard it's K, L, :, *, Enter. On Hungarian keyboards it's K, L, É, Á, Ű, Enter. That means you can't just reach over with your little finger to hit Enter, you have to move your whole hand - so you need a bigger target if you want to be able to hit it witout looking. I actually hit the Enter key with my ring finger.

Ekaros · « **Reply #15 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 04:13:02 »

Quote from: PrinsValium;266591

I like the big enter... feels reaffirming to smash at the end of inputting something smart =D And a third layer is sort of non-optional to us swedes anyhow. In our layout there are other more useless keyes to remap the potential loss of "\|" to.

Yep, it's there, it's big, it's just great to hit it with one finger and be done with it...

theferenc · « **Reply #16 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 08:29:07 »

The pinyin and stroke system the chinese use is amazingly elegant, but it does take a while to learn. And even worse, you have to speak either mandarin or cantonese to use them (cantonese is called something other than pinyin). So for the older generation, they have to learn to use the stroke system in order to type, which is actually fairly complex.

As for the accented characters, I do get that you use them a lot, but what's wrong with the mac system of the option layer on the keys? Just remap caps lock to option, and you'd be good to go, without moving from home row for the most part.

And for the math/science types, you can't type them directly into LaTeX anyway, as they aren't supported characters. You have to use the commands to do it, such as \:{u} for an umlauted u. I actually think this is vastly preferable, even when I'm typing chinese characters from LaTeX. It's a bit hit or miss sometimes, as you have to figure out what order the pinyin list is in, but you do get used to it.

HaaTa · « **Reply #17 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 08:37:12 »

Quote from: elef;266623

I actually hit the Enter key with my ring finger.

I've noticed this as well, when I use the ISO style Enter keys. Though, the \[ \] combos are slightly more convenient with ANSI (bash/zsh user).

bpiphany · « **Reply #18 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 09:06:30 »

Latex with the babel package or whichever it is supports all sort of characters. Having them on a third layer would be a real pain... Imagine having a few of the english characters located there =P Q and W aren't really used in swedish though. Moving them and perhaps X out would do the trick I guess. Then how would I type on GH? =) But really, as I tried to point out. The total number of keys is not the problem. I don't mind having some of the special characters on the third level.

sam113101 · « **Reply #19 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 09:34:13 »

I'm from Quebec and still prefer ANSI over ISO. My netbook had a ISO keyboard and I swapped it with a ANSI keyboard.
I seriously don't know why the ISO layout exists, «» could have been placed somewhere else, and these are not the most useful characters should I say.

I'm using a dvorak layout that's called bépo and I still don't need the extra key that ISO offers to type in french, so I don't really care what physical layout I have. I'm still more familiar with ANSI since I discovered mechanical keyboards, since they rarely come in the ISO layout. ANSI is more ergonomic, more symmetric, more popular.

sam113101 · « **Reply #20 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 09:46:48 »

We have logitech and microsoft ISO keyboards.

theferenc · « **Reply #21 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 09:50:30 »

Quote from: PrinsValium;266677

Latex with the babel package or whichever it is supports all sort of characters. Having them on a third layer would be a real pain... Imagine having a few of the english characters located there =P Q and W aren't really used in swedish though. Moving them and perhaps X out would do the trick I guess. Then how would I type on GH? =) But really, as I tried to point out. The total number of keys is not the problem. I don't mind having some of the special characters on the third level.

I can't say I've ever used the babel package, but I guess that does make sense.

But sure, if they are used often enough, putting them on the third layer would be sort of a pain. I apologize for my America/Asia centric view that ANSI is more than sufficient for all cases. But seriously, China uses ANSI, as does Korea, and it's not even uncommon in Japan. All of the keyboards I saw in Tokyo-Narita airport, for instance, were using ANSI.

But you're right, what's the point in having characters you don't use, PLUS the extra characters you do use? It just seems sort of silly, honestly. I'm sure it's just a legacy thing, but who knows for sure.

kps · « **Reply #22 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 09:56:03 »

My little finger is not long enough to reach the Euro-Enter.

ch_123 · « **Reply #23 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 11:02:31 »

Quote from: Ekaros;266621

In the end it's pretty much what you have gotten used to.

As someone who switched to ANSI after ~15 years of ISO, I'm inclined to disagree.

Quote

Yep, it's there, it's big, it's just great to hit it with one finger and be done with it...

And you can't do this with an ANSI keyboard?

Apparently you can.

Oh look,

I did it again.

Lanx · « **Reply #24 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 11:08:38 »

Quote from: PrinsValium;266591

I like the big enter... feels reaffirming to smash at the end of inputting something smart =D And a third layer is sort of non-optional to us swedes anyhow. In our layout there are other more useless keyes to remap the potential loss of "\|" to.

i don't think \| will ever be dropped that key known as "pipe" is heavily used as an option for csv, or comma seperated values, i know your saying well then wouldn't comma be used? and yea it would except commas are also used in number seperation (i.e. 1,000,000) so ppl use some other character instead and often it is |, "pipe".

ch_123 · « **Reply #25 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 11:11:03 »

I think some silly operating system uses \ as a file path separator. Can't remember its name for the life of me...

HaaTa · « **Reply #26 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 11:11:49 »

Some of use also use | regularly in Bash.

Code: [Select]

cat file.txt | grep dog

theferenc · « **Reply #27 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 11:18:35 »

And don't forget that | and \ are used extensively in programming and markup languages. Plus #, which is really convenient on an ANSI board, but I seem to recall not nearly as convenient on an ISO board. At least the UK layout, it's a pain in the ass to get to.

` and ~ are also extensively used in UNIX land and programming.

Maybe that's the biggest difference, I think. Many programming languages come out of the US, and so the characters used by the language are mostly based on the ANSI layout, and so the ANSI layout tends to be the most convenient for programming. After all, you will just not be using anything other than ASCII in C, for instance, except *possibly* in strings -- and then only if you are using the wchar type or a unicode aware string package. But none of the actual control will be in anything other than ASCII characters.

Which are all that you can find on an ANSI board. ISO boards tend to have other characters, that are not in the ASCII set.

quadibloc · « **Reply #28 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 11:30:21 »

I object to the key between Z and the left-hand shift key of the ISO layout because I am used to not having a key there from typewriters, even before computers got personal.

As for the Enter key, though, what I like about the ANSI Enter key is its position, not its shape. I would not like the ISO Enter key because it is one key too far to the right. If it were moved, so that its left edge coincides with that of }] and the Enter key on the ANSI keyboard, then, except for not being quite wide enough, it would be ideal.

But do they make keyboards like this:

No!

ch_123 · « **Reply #29 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 11:39:45 »

I'm pretty sure the Taiwanese use ANSI too.

The Japanese layout has a weird mix of fixtures from ISO, ANSI and AT-style ANSI. ANSI keyboards are quite popular over there though.

theferenc · « **Reply #30 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 11:42:47 »

Um, quadibloc, what key between Z and left shift on the ANSI layout are you talking about? I can't seem to find anything there on any of my ANSI keyboards...

Did you mean ISO?

elef · « **Reply #31 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 13:08:00 »

Quote from: theferenc;266666

As for the accented characters, I do get that you use them a lot, but what's wrong with the mac system of the option layer on the keys? Just remap caps lock to option, and you'd be good to go, without moving from home row for the most part.

Well, nothing wrong with it per se, except that it would suck to type on. If you don't think so, remap your letter b to Ctrl-b for a month and then tell me how you liked it.
BTW are modifier keys a "mac system"?

quadibloc · « **Reply #32 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 13:29:59 »

Quote from: theferenc;266762

Um, quadibloc, what key between Z and left shift on the ANSI layout are you talking about? I can't seem to find anything there on any of my ANSI keyboards...

Did you mean ISO?

Oops. I try to be so careful, but it's so hard not to get the two names confused...

theferenc · « **Reply #33 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 13:51:12 »

Quote from: elef;266795

Well, nothing wrong with it per se, except that it would suck to type on. If you don't think so, remap your letter b to Ctrl-b for a month and then tell me how you liked it.
BTW are modifier keys a "mac system"?

Elef, only macs have option as a modifier, and os x uses an "option" layer for many international and symbolic characters.

Windows and linux use a different system.

So yes, what I described IS a "mac system".

Also, I'm an emacs and vi user. Modifier keys are something I use a lot of. It would actually be easier for me to hit control-b than shift-b, honestly. I don't use shift all that often in my day to day work.

ch_123 · « **Reply #34 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 14:01:11 »

Some PC layouts (including UK/Irish) have an Alt-Gr key which has a similar effect to the Option layer. Not sure who came up with the idea first.

Ekaros · « **Reply #35 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 14:25:30 »

Quote from: ch_123;266812

Some PC layouts (including UK/Irish) have an Alt-Gr key which has a similar effect to the Option layer. Not sure who came up with the idea first.

Probably IBM, atleast I think it has been there for ages in Finnish-layout...

I just wondered about Return-key too. Why isn't it in place of Caps Lock? Would be way easier to reach on both ansi and iso...

ch_123 · « **Reply #36 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 14:28:32 »

It was moved there on the Model M to keep secretaries used to the Selectric layout happy. The Model F had Ctrl there like most sane computer keyboard layouts have it.

quadibloc · « **Reply #37 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 14:31:04 »

Quote from: Ekaros;266819

I just wondered about Return-key too. Why isn't it in place of Caps Lock? Would be way easier to reach on both ansi and iso...

Well, the Enter key belongs in the position of the Carriage Return key, and the Caps Lock key belongs in the position of the Shift Lock key.

It would be confusing to give computer keyboards a different layout than that of typewriter keyboards.

Ekaros · « **Reply #38 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 14:35:43 »

Quote from: quadibloc;266822

Well, the Enter key belongs in the position of the Carriage Return key, and the Caps Lock key belongs in the position of the Shift Lock key.

It would be confusing to give computer keyboards a different layout than that of typewriter keyboards.

Those damm typewriters, first QWERTY, then Caps Lock and then messed up position of keys... Not in that particular order...

ch_123 · « **Reply #39 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 14:39:17 »

I'm quite happy with Return not being where Caps Lock is, given how easy it is to accidentally hit Caps Lock... Hitting Return accidentally can have far more unfortunate consequences than accidentally turning on Caps.

wap32 · « **Reply #40 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 14:41:50 »

Tried an ANSI style keyboard for a while, every time I wanted to write 'ã' I ended up hitting enter instead.
(on a Portuguese layout, the tilde is the 3rd key right of 'L')
It made me want to just yank the keyboard and throw it out the window, fortunately it crapped out after a while and got replaced.

Other than the tilde tho, I didn't have any problems.

bpiphany · « **Reply #41 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 15:16:40 »

Boy, americans really are as ignorant and conservative as their reputation =D

I hope you do realise that the pipe is relocated to a different key, not even too hard to get to, on other layouts... On a swedish layout it's located on the extra key between shift and z together with < and >. No characters are impossible to get. Sure, I hardly think it was designed by a programmer but I don't get that impression from ANSI layout either... And of course the "logical" layout of all characters are possible to change around. I'm strongly considering moving all right hand characters two keys outwards. I much rather prefer reaching a bit further towards the middle with my index fingers. Personally I don't mind a few special characters requireing a little extra effort. I hardly type code or commands at hundreds of words a minute anyways. I don't type text that fast either but I would still hate to have any of the 29 alphabeth characters on another level. And there is really no necessity to either...

The physical difference between ANSI and ISO bothers me far less than the small differences in character layout. I'm always getting the second layer of 1-+ wrong =P The only symbol lost when using a ISO board in ubuntu with swedish layout is pipe though.. Something that of course has to be (easily) remedied.

Ekaros · « **Reply #42 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 15:23:42 »

Quote from: PrinsValium;266842

Boy, americans really are as ignorant and conservative as their reputation =D

I hope you do realise that the pipe is relocated to a different key, not even too hard to get to, on other layouts... On a swedish layout it's located on the extra key between shift and z together with < and >. No characters are impossible to get. Sure, I hardly think it was designed by a programmer but I don't get that impression from ANSI layout either... And of course the "logical" layout of all characters are possible to change around. I'm strongly considering moving all right hand characters two keys outwards. I much rather prefer reaching a bit further towards the middle with my index fingers. Personally I don't mind a few special characters requireing a little extra effort. I hardly type code or commands at hundreds of words a minute anyways. I don't type text that fast either but I would still hate to have any of the 29 alphabeth characters on another level. And there is really no necessity to either...

Yeah, acctualy FI/SW Layout is quite good, only useless letter with somewhat easy reach is ¤

Third level would be pain...

Johannes · « **Reply #43 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 15:44:18 »

Quote from: HaaTa;266746

Some of use also use | regularly in Bash.

Code: [Select]
cat file.txt | grep dog

UUOC.

Code: [Select]

grep dog file.txt

I recently switched to ANSI after many years of ISO, and vastly prefer it because of the easier lshift and enter reaches.

theferenc · « **Reply #44 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 16:08:41 »

You call us ignorant and conservative. Feel free.

Personally, I'm neither. But I see no reason to waste vaste amounts of usable space with a double height enter key. It covers the position that should contain backspace in the proper layout, or \| in the ANSI layout.

Regardless of where you feel those keys should go, having a double height enter is wasteful. There is absolutely no valid reason for it. In UNIX, I often just use ctrl-j anyway, as it's often more convenient for me.

And there's your example of a commonly used key that I prefer to be on a modifier level, rather than default level. Any other insults and stereotypes you'd like to toss my way?

ch_123 · « **Reply #45 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 16:11:26 »

It's not really an issue of space, with the double height enter, you can have an extra key along the home row. With ANSI, it moves above the enter. Same amount of keys.

The main issue with the ISO style enter is that you have to move your hand to press it. With the ANSI enter, you can just tap the left hand side of it with your little finger.

msiegel · « **Reply #46 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 16:12:26 »

Quote from: theferenc;266867

I often just use ctrl-j anyway

dang, you've earned that beard

theferenc · « **Reply #47 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 16:22:20 »

I'm a UNIX beard. I've worked very hard to become so.

If you want an extra key along the home row, then make caps lock smaller. There is absolutely no reason for it to be double wide either.

Anyway, the whole argument is ridiculous anyway. You will always want to use what you think is the best tool for your personal job. Personally, I don't even want ANSI. I want Sun Type 5. Also known as UNIX layout. Think HHKB, and you've basically got it.

Oh well, at least my beard keeps me warm in this cold weather.

woody · « **Reply #48 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 16:43:30 »

What ch_123 said.

I don't like the ISO "Enter/Return" because it is harder to press due to more switches and/or stabilizers. It mostly gets worse if you hit it off-center.

ANSI works just fine for me.

bpiphany · « **Reply #49 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 16:43:45 »

No I'm not trying to insult anyone, therefor the extra big smile.. No reason to feel offended. I just want to claim it's mostly a question of habit. What you once learned probably is what feels right. There is hardly any difference at all between ISO and ANSI to start with =P I like the ISO enter but prefer the ANSI shift. Putting more of the special characters on the third level would allow for removal of a couple of keys allowing a tighter typing area. That is what I would like to see myself. Placing different kind of brackets and other symbols in a more intuitive way on their own level...

Threw together what I think is a fairly good frequency table of letters in swedish, just for fun.

News:

Author Topic: Is the ANSI Layout Endangered? (Read 18537 times)

woody