Das Keyboard vs. Unicomp Customizer?

[bladamson]

Hey everyone!

So it seems that, after 15 years, I've finally worn out my model M. :<  So I've been doing some window shopping....  I've been needing a decent USB keyboard for a while anyway.

It's pretty much come down to either a Das or a Unicomp, since I can't find a model F AT anywhere.  But I can't decide which.  Considering that I tend to rest so much weight on my fingertips, I'm afraid that the cherry blue switches in the Das will activate too easily when I am slopping code around at 4am coffee-deprivation hour.

Unfortunately, I live out at the far end of the middle of nowhere, so there's nowhere even remotely close that I know of to try the cherry blues before ordering something.

Are there any long-time model M users here who have made the switch to cherry blue switches?  How was the experience?  Did you prefer the cherry blue switches after you got used to them?

Thanks much!

[ch_123]

Many around here have tried both Blue Cherry keyboards, and Buckling Spring keyboards. Some prefer the Cherries because they are lighter. Some prefer the Buckling Springs because the tactility is more substantial and the keyboards that use them are better built. From your description, and if you've been happy with a Model M for 15 years, you will probably prefer a new Unicomp.

If you are considering a Cherry board, wait for Elitekeyboards to stock Leopold boards which promise to be more interesting than some of the stuff currently on the market.

[HaaTa]

If you don't mind waiting for a board on Ebay or the like, the Model F AT is an excellent option as well (not usb, but awesome nonetheless).

[bladamson]

It's pretty grody. >_>  Lemme clean it up a bit soon(tm) and I'll see if I can get hold of a decent camera...

The alphabetic keys are all pretty shiny, except for J and Q.  The ink is wearing off of E, O, A, S, D, C, N (and W, R, U, I, L, M, and left-crtl to a lesser extent - just starting to fade).

It's a gray-label with the detachable cable.  It came off of an old 3270 terminal, though it is the usual PC keyboard, not one of the terminal keyboards with all the extra keys.  Might not have been the original keyboard.

PN 1391401
FRU 1392090
ID 7105474
Date 02OCT91

It's been a darn good keyboard, used to hack code almost daily since the mid 90s.  Really, the only thing wrong with it is left shift sticking very very badly.  I've cleaned it out well and replaced the shift key and spring with parts off another model M with some dead keys on it, lubed it up with silicon spray, and it hasn't helped. :s  It kinda jams down sideways if you don't hold your mouth juuuust right, and gets stuck until you hit it on the left edge to free it.

In other news, I ordered a rather used Model F PC/AT with a din5->ps2 adapter from clickykeyboards at a rather exorbitant price (but hopefully worthwhile, if it's not already too worn out to get a few year's work out of).  Hopefully the AT model is as good as the XT model was.  I hacked a lot of pascal on one of those things back in the day....

Edit- Not a 3270 lolol.  5250.

[bladamson]

We couldn't find batteries for the real camera, and had to use a crappy laptop-integrated webcam instead.  Sorry for the low quality.

Anyway, here's some shiny and worn-thin ink for you.

[microsoft windows]

An IBM or a Unicomp should suit you well.

[msiegel]

so *that's* your secret profession, tech support for cam performers!

[ch_123]

Some of those earlier Model Ms have pretty bad stabilizer inserts for large keys. The right shift on my SSK is a bit sticky, even with a new spring. Replacing the stabilizer insert, possibly with one from a lesser used key like Numpad Plus, could fix it.

Now, removing one of those things without breaking the keyboard apart might prove to be interesting...

[patrickgeekhack]

Someone corrects me if I am wrong, but I don't think there are many keyboards out there that can take so much abuse over so many years like the IBM Model M can. And this is one of the reasons, I think, that make the IBM Model M the king of keyboards.

[iMav]

If you don't want the Unicomp logo, they will sell you logo-less LED stickers if you ask for them. I've got a pile of them on my desk.

[msiegel]

yes... buckling spring keyboards were designed as office equipment. back when there were professional typists, that really meant something

the model f switch mechanism is rated at 100M actuations.

typing 120 WPM nonstop, 8 hrs/day, every work day of the year, the life expectancy of the most-used switch (under the space bar) would be 7 years.

for a $350 keyboard, that comes to only $4 a month. an excellent value for any serious business!

[msiegel]

the king of keyboards

yes... buckling spring keyboards were designed as office equipment. back when there were professional typists, that really meant something

the model f switch mechanism is rated for 100M actuations.

typing 120 WPM nonstop, 8 hrs/day, every work day of the year, the life expectancy of the most-used switch (under the space bar) would be 7 years.

for a $350 keyboard, that comes to only $4 a month. an excellent value for any serious business!

[Oqsy]

I have 2 IBM and 2 Unicomp model Ms, and the differences are negligible (no more difference between any single IBM and Unicomp M than there were between a UK IBM and a KY Lexmark.)  The Unicomp boards feel and sound SLIGHTLY different, but without the two side by side you'd be hard pressed to notice.  Unicomp is our best kept secret.  Fortunately, they don't seem to keen on revealing themselves and reclaiming control of the keyboard market any time soon.  

Ahem, SPACE SAVER!  NEW COLORS!  COMPETE DAMN YOU!

[bladamson]

Some of those earlier Model Ms have pretty bad stabilizer inserts for large keys. The right shift on my SSK is a bit sticky, even with a new spring. Replacing the stabilizer insert, possibly with one from a lesser used key like Numpad Plus, could fix it.

Now, removing one of those things without breaking the keyboard apart might prove to be interesting...

I'll try that here once I've had my coffee.  Thank you!  By insert, I assume you mean the plastic barrel rather than the metal bar?  I've replaced the whole key, but I didn't realize that the barrel was removable. :3

Will the keyswitch board from any of the Unicomps fit into a model M enclosure and hook to the electronics, just out of curiosity?  I have another one that's in far better shape, except the 7UJM column is dead.

I still have that Model F on the way though.  I really do think it's time.  The keys on this one feel a good bit sloppier than those on my broken parts donor board, and I like the unix layout of those things.

I've been entertaining thoughts of opening it up and putting the board out of a USB converter inside of it, so as to not have all that converter junk hanging off the back of my box, and so I can hook it to the laptop...  It looks like there's plenty of extra space up near the top.

Also been reading on here about the backspace mods.  Has anyone tried cutting traces on the board and jumping the pads for the backslash key to the right place with like #30 connection wire and a little solder and nail polish, rather than remapping in software?

[bladamson]

I'll try that here once I've had my coffee.  Thank you!

!!!!!!!!

Good as new!  Lol.

Well, not really.  The spring isn't buckling right, but it's not sticking anymore, anyway.

[Cheese101]

I have 2 IBM and 2 Unicomp model Ms, and the differences are negligible (no more difference between any single IBM and Unicomp M than there were between a UK IBM and a KY Lexmark.)  The Unicomp boards feel and sound SLIGHTLY different, but without the two side by side you'd be hard pressed to notice.  Unicomp is our best kept secret.  Fortunately, they don't seem to keen on revealing themselves and reclaiming control of the keyboard market any time soon.  

Ahem, SPACE SAVER!  NEW COLORS!  COMPETE DAMN YOU!

They're content to just sort of ride off into the sunset.
What happens when the 4 folks working there retire? Will they hire any new employees to replace them? I reckon they could at least triple their sales with all black and spacesaver models if they ever could get over the hurdles involved in making them.

[typo]

i prefer the feel of the blue cherrys. i like the das the best with those switches. the unicomp is simply a better built keyboard though. why can't anyone make a good quality blue cherry board anymore?

[ch_123]

Will the keyswitch board from any of the Unicomps fit into a model M enclosure and hook to the electronics, just out of curiosity?  I have another one that's in far better shape, except the 7UJM column is dead.

Unicomp's internal assemblies will only fit inside the 42H1292 style Model Ms - i.e. most of the ones made from 1996 onwards. If you have an oldschool Model M like the 1391401, it won't fit.

You can repair dead traces on Model Ms easily enough. The challenge however is getting to the membrane, and sticking the thing back together again. It would take a day's work.

why can't anyone make a good quality blue cherry board anymore?

It's not just the keyboards, the Blue Cherry switches themselves are quite temperamental compared to a buckling spring mechanism.

[typo]

i was wondering what peoples experience with das vs. unicomp legends is. i have pretty caustic hands. both my lasered keys and dye sub look like his pictures of the dye subs on the first page of this post.
i wear them both pretty good but it takes years to completely wear them off.
they start to fade on me within 2 weeks if they are lasered or dye sub. topre as well. only ds lasts me for years like new.

plus 25m keystrokes vs. 50m. that might not be a big deal though because cherrys tend to fail well before 50m. the unicomp probably lasts the full 25m or more. it is a less complex switch.

i always read here dye sub does not wear. i think the op's photo's are proof it does. the only difference is my unicomp spacesaver looked like that in two weeks! intrestingly the das took about 45 days before it looked like that. other people wore the legends clear off the das in a week.

i have wore out a topre. the legends are broken lines and it is super shiny. i guess pbt vs. abs does not matter either if you have funky hands. well, maybe it is not even my chemistry. i simply type over 100 hours a week! so, what is usual wear for most people happens to me in a matter of months. i have actually failed a new model m back in the day! yes, i hit over 100m keystrokes or there abouts. or whatever it took to fail several keys.
i guess the bottom line is ymmv.

i was just wondering if the unicomp legends tend to last most "normal" people longer than the das. barring the das' that rubbed off straight away.

[msiegel]

@_@

you're an actual typist.

the only thing that could survive that kind of punishment for more than 3 years is an otaku model f... or maybe a black cherry board with double shot keys

[typo]

i am actually surprised at myself that i wore dye sub so quickly. i guess you are right, forgo the legends alltogether and go otaku. i don't need the legends anyhow. i touch type wpm i won't even metion as not to be taken seriously lol. yeah, thats what i do i type.

well, i have an old idea. there are a bunch of old cherry corp boards in the storage room. i am going to try to get ds keys on the das. i really do like the das overall. the only issue is that even if i find black keys they will probably not match the das' frame. who cares though. other than that i might order some otaku's. good idea, thanks! i don't mind shiny. having half a legend might not have them to begin with. the worn letters look like poop.


it takes about 2 years to blow the switches. which i don't mind. i can do without the worn legends in two weeks.

oh btw, thats how i cheat and hit the high wpm i don't shift. as you have noticed . of course if code requires shift i do.

[msiegel]

you mean... with an X?

[typo]

the pic could be very improved for reference. you can clearly see what happened though. it "thinned out". what intrests me is how long he states it took him. that takes me a few months. as has been noticed i use the sh!t out of a keyboard though. so it is not really any particular keyboard that wears quicker. it is just very heavy use. which in turn accelerates the life span of the board of course. i know people that just use a computer to casually browse the internet and their $10 logitech board looks brand new after a year.

when people state wear around here they should also state how much they used it and if they have funky hands. i have been honest about both.

i wonder if the legends on a unicomp last longer than the das for average people. in contrast to your findings, ripster i have found the das' lettering to be pretty decent. to me it is a toss up but i do not put average use on them.

now, i have to go hunt for those ds keys in the dungeon! i don't expect the spacing to be perfect but it should work out better than half rubbed off legends.

[bladamson]

Where did the OP go?

This pic "could be improved".

I'm still around.  But I'm snowed in and won't have access to a camera until I can get out of my driveway.

[bladamson]

when people state wear around here they should also state how much they used it and if they have funky hands. i have been honest about both.

Iunno exact wear figures.  I don't really keep track.  I've had 5 different Ms in my life.  One of them came into my hoard about 17 years ago (an '88 board) and the other 4 about 14 ('91 boards).  The board that the key pics are from is one of the younger ones.  Over the years, two of the boards have broken as a result of particularly tantrum-prone children and exes pounding on them, one was given away, and one was lost.  Back when I had more than one working one, they got shuffled up every time I rearranged my computer room and cleaned keycaps, so up until about 5 years ago, the board in question didn't see constant use.

My skin is somewhat dry and entirely non-funky.

But...  It's just a keyboard with worn keys.  Lol.

[ch_123]

plus 25m keystrokes vs. 50m. that might not be a big deal though because cherrys tend to fail well before 50m. the unicomp probably lasts the full 25m or more. it is a less complex switch.

Agreed. I remember when I started getting interested in keyboards, the spec for Blue Cherries was 20 million presses. Then suddenly it was bumped up to 50 million out of nowhere, without any change to the switch design.

Of course, this is the same 50 million expected presses switch that will stop clicking if a single hair gets lodged into any of the conveniently located gaps around the bottom of the switch.

i was just wondering if the unicomp legends tend to last most "normal" people longer than the das.

Yes, definitely.

[typo]

lol, ripster. you are actually correct about that. strangely my best looking key! hmmm.

dude, if you live where there is snow you need a used jeep for the winter. it can pay for itself in one winter with a plow on it!

i made like $1,200 in the last 48 hours plowing! heck, if i could do comercial i'd be only working in the winter!

[bladamson]

dude, if you live where there is snow you need a used jeep for the winter. it can pay for itself in one winter with a plow on it!

The WV DOT is supposed to plow here, but they never do. -_-'

[typo]

i asked this a long time ago but i think it went unanswered. i don't have a spacesaver here at the moment.

if anyone has a ruler and spacesaver handy could you please tell me: how long in inches is the keyboard from the bottom of the frame to the top of the function keys?

i know the frame is 7.1 inches.

i tried to look it up but the new google search on this site blows. i understand the financial concerns of the sites owner however.

thanks.

edit: found it. it was answered.

[typo]

actually the guy said 5.5" from the bottom of the frame to the top of the func keys. it seems like more than that. darnit where is mine i can't find it!

i need to put a different keyboard tray on for boards more than 5.5" to the top of the func keys and it is a royal pain in the butt. maybe that is why i am not using it, i am not sure.


if anyone kindly cares to measure theirs please.....

eidt: nevermind, i found mine! it is not even 5.5 inches. it is on my tray now. oh yes, it is! that is odd though, it looks bigger than the das but it is not.

man, i wish they would make a hhkb style keyboard otaku. that would be the sh!t! i doubt they will though since this is office equipment.

thanks.

[typo]

as usual ripster, you are too funny.

you know what? i tend to wear out dye sub faster than good laser. i don't think it is so much my funky hands as abrasion that wears them out. then of course the laser would last longer. since you have to wear down the whole key past the grrove to wipe out the legends. yeah, they put some on top outside of the groove to make the contrast higher. i wear that off in a couple of weeks. my dye subs just rub off whereas the lasers fade but retain the complete legend.

i guess different strokes for different folks then. i do maintain i prefer blue cherrys though. so the das quickly wen't back on my tray. buckling springs and topre's are not really mechanical switches which i just seem to prefer.

as for the cherry's getting full of hair. there are a lot of cat's around here and i am my own serviceman as well. the cherry's are very serviceable and individually replaceable. as are the keycaps of course. overall, with work a mx board can stay in service much longer than a ibm/unicomp or topre imo. when one key fails on the other boards afaik ,game over. this is important to me because i use these boards like a monkey eats bananas. please, no monkey joke ripster!

[msiegel]

model m was the first ibm keyboard where individual switches were non-serviceable, if i'm remembering the ibm wiki correctly. unfortunately this was inherited by the unicomp versions.

btw, what kind of desk/chair/tray/monitor setup do you have? since you type so much, i'm curious if it's unusual

[bladamson]

I superglue sandpaper to my fingertips when I type.  It helps me grip the keys better.



Sorry.  I couldn't resist being snarky.  It's all in good fun. ;P

[bladamson]

I type so hard that I break each of my fingers off at the second joint, leaving only bloody stumps with which I flail at the keys ineffectually in a blind rage-haze of pain.

...

...

Thank goodness for Lexmark-era drainage channels.

[bladamson]

*cues up the Cure and types hard*

[woody]

Not related to key wear, but in a thread (maybe old) I saw a photo of a guy's bent pinky, supposedly Emacs fan. Then I looked at my pinkies and .... my right one is slightly bent. ZOMG.

EDIT: I'm not Emacs user, to begin with. Damn.

[bladamson]

I hear that proximity to Emacs users can cause sympathetic finger-bending.

[woody]

Computers lead to mutations, I tell you!

[woody]

Yep, that picture.

Mine is not bent that much, but still differs from the seemingly straight left pinky when compared.
Have you compared yours?

[bladamson]

Show Image

Favorite.  Dilbert.  Evar.

[woody]

Here's a cocktail for you:

[typo]

come on guys. i don't type hard at all. i just type a lot.

to the person that asked. a hon desk and a herman miller chair. not that intresting. i do not use arm or wrist rests.

i like the das best and it has worn similar to every other keyboard i lay my hands upon. if you use anything a lot it will wear out faster. you should see what i do to professional vacuums!

i hope the troll statement was not in regards to me, i did not mean to be.

the op states he wore out dye subs rather quickly as well.

besides that i was just mentioning my personal preference. having both the das pro s and space saver.

i was going to take a picture of a dye sub "a" that is now nearly otaku but i painted the legend back on lol. i'll look for some others though.

[theferenc]

Emacs Pinky!!!

Show Image

It's kinda like Unix Beards!!!

Show Image

Hmmm, I bet this wouldn't happen with proper control key placement. Put it where god intended, and there is no need to curl your pinky under in distressing ways.

Also, I love that dilbert comic. I forgot about the suspender aspect of being a UNIX beard. I thought that was just my personal idiosyncrasy.

[bladamson]

i hope the troll statement was not in regards to me, i did not mean to be.

Nawww, I was just joshin' ya.  Trolling at myself more than anything.

[microsoft windows]

It's kinda like Unix Beards!!!

My career was strictly UNIX administration for a long time (AIX, Solaris, UNICOS, HP/UX, etc).  If it was a UNIX variant, I likely dealt with it at some time or another.

[/URL]


Now wait a minute... Is it time for another poll?

[msiegel]

quick, check for suspenders

[bladamson]

The helmet must be to help fend off the angry hordes of lusers.

Ahhhh, sysadminning, I do not miss you at all...

As a joke (taking a cue from BOFH), I once wired a 120v power plug to an ethernet cable and hung it on my door.  Nobody got it. And then the cable disappeared.  I hope nobody tried to use it.  D:=

[iMav]

Emacs Pinky!!!

Show Image

Emacs?  You should see what GEEKHACK does to your fingers!

[eherzog]

Has my freakish handicap scared everyone away from this thread?  It's ok.  I'm comfortable with my extremely short, crooked fingers.  You can come out of the woodwork.  iMav, it's too bad that I can't simply wave my deformed hands in front of the kids and get them to quiet down like this!

[msiegel]

but i'm pretty sure...

it's from too many mac keyboard shortcuts!

command option shift 4!!