Extreme anti-gosting coming to the masses...

[ch_123]

It works fine when you're dealing with electric switching, but when you start dealing with capacitance, it's hard to say. I'm not an expert too, but I'm willing to say that if more basic capacitive rubber dome mechanisms could be made, they would have been.

It isn't so much the diodes, as soldering them in to the circuit board. But even capacitative - since it usually uses a PC board for the contacts, rather than a membrane - adds significant manufacturing costs, which is likely one reason why it isn't used more.

IBM had a design for a capacitive membrane system (it's in one of the patents in the beam spring section of the IBM Wiki). Presumably it didn't prove cost effective enough relative to the utility it provided. Nonetheless, capacitive membranes are plausible - the Apple Mighty Mouse (and probably the magic mouse too) has the capacitive sensing implementing on flexible plastic, albeit on a much smaller scale compared with what a keyboard would need.

I think rechecking the target group definitions might do. A thread title like this is clearly targeting the un-/misinformed masses. Fine all by itself, but not ideal in a place where people are aware of said difference.

Granted, but that within of itself can help perpetuate the misconceptions. Some companies *coughsrazercoughs* use this stuff on their marketing material, and I've already seen people on OCN say stuff like "The Razer is better than the Deck, because the Razer has 'anti ghosting' technology" (even though the Deck is 6KRO to the Razer's 2)

[Nadger]

this is exciting... minus the fact that (if waiting for clickclacks and leopolds are any indication), it will take forever to migrate to mechanical keyboards

Razer will make one after everyone else has already made one and claim they are first.   Just like every cellphone company claims they have the most coverage*, or fastest network*, or every truck commerical claims their truck has the most towing and payload capacities*, horsepower*, and torque*.  Or how tv makers claim 5000000000:1 contrast ratio*

* = if you calculate it a custom way that we invented to legally claim this as true without being false advertising~

They of course will also take credit for the R&D -O

[chimborazo]

for what it's worth - quadibloc echoes the background w/ 4,920,343. i am unsure whether it is the same one that ch 123 mentions

"Various capacitance detection schemes have been devised for satisfactorily dealing with the above described detection problem. One such detector circuit is described in detail in U.S. Pat. No. 4,728,931 issued to W.J. Linder, et al. on Mar. 1, 1988 and assigned to the assignee of the present application. Satisfactory implementation of this detector circuit, as well as most somewhat similar circuits, depends on careful balancing of the actuated and unactuated key switch capacitances, the sense node to ground capacitance and the capacitance value of a reference capacitor in the detector circuit.

As apparent from the above identified patent, the detector circuit disclosed therein is well suited for fabrication as an integrated circuit using standard CMOS integrated circuit designs which provide for low power consumption and low cost. Such designs are sensitive to input signal voltage parameters. In particular, input signal voltages less than the circuit reference voltage by more than a predetermined amount may cause latch-up and destruction of the circuit. In prior capacitive keyboard designs using metal housings and other components which furnished a conductive backplane, the sense node to ground capacitance provided inherent protection against excessively negative sense node voltages.

More recent keyboard designs directed at high volume keyboard markets which have become increasingly cost competitive have tended away from metal components and toward all plastic construction. This greatly reduces the sense node to ground capacitance and the control it provided over excessively negative input signal voltages. It is apparent that the sense node to ground capacitance could be reintroduced by adding a metallized membrane backplane or equivalent elements. However, the addition of parts is undesirable from manufacturing cost considerations."

[nigritude]

^ that just made realize how much a topre actually is ... hahaha

[AvengeR]

pressure sensitive keys is one of those things that could change pc interfaces completely, but it won't since it requires compatible software and that is not profitable (risky new technology that needs special hardware). The only possible way is microsoft develops games and other applications that use it.

another posibility is it could become so cheap to produce that every keyboard has it in the feature, then only some people would know how to use that "hidden" feature.

also it's not like i'm against it; I've been waiting that for years. The thing is it requires commitment from other companies, and as we have seen in the past (ps2 and xbox1) it ends not being used and then discontinued since it's an expense no matter how minimal it is(ps3 and xbox360 controllers do not have front analog buttons anymore).

[killy]

Have you seen the amount of circuitry on the Topre PCB?  It's cost.

Unless of course you can drive the volume.  Then it gets cheap.

You can buy one of these for one Topre.

That depends. Do they order thousands at one time, or smaller batches? It seems like initial tooling of the machines to produce the PCB is what costs the money; actually making a batch would not cost very much. I doubt the PCB is that complex, given graphics cards can be had for the same price with denser features.

[SirDrexl]

also it's not like i'm against it; I've been waiting that for years. The thing is it requires commitment from other companies, and as we have seen in the past (ps2 and xbox1) it ends not being used and then discontinued since it's an expense no matter how minimal it is(ps3 and xbox360 controllers do not have front analog buttons anymore).

Actually, they still do have pressure-sensitive buttons.  It's just that most games don't bother to use them in that way.  Analog triggers are much easier to use for throttling the amount of pressure, and games generally don't need more than 2 such inputs (usually gas and brake for driving games, which if you ask me is pretty much why they were invented in the first place).

One game that can use the sensitivity is Gran Turismo 5, although I would switch to the analog triggers anyway because it makes it a lot easier.  Well, before I got a wheel I would.  

[False_Dmitry_II]

The thing is it requires commitment from other companies, and as we have seen in the past (ps2 and xbox1) it ends not being used and then discontinued since it's an expense no matter how minimal it is(ps3 and xbox360 controllers do not have front analog buttons anymore).

Fair point, however, on each there are glaring reasons why it never really took off.

For the PS2 it was the simple fact that you were allowed to use any playstation 1 controller in any game. So you would have a giant subset of people who are using controllers that do not have this capability because they never bothered to buy a new one just for this feature. So why would you want to alienate those people?

For the xbox 1, it actually was sorta like the gamecube triggers that someone mentioned earlier: where it would slowly increase the output of how much you're pulling on the trigger until you hit the final actual button which was seperate. It may not be physically like that on the main buttons on the xbox controller, but it is like that de facto. I never noticed the final press until I played a game which did not use the analog part at all, only the final press for all actions in the game. I was surprised at how much more you can push those buttons in than I thought you could. It was simply too difficult to do for every single thing in the game so I used a PS2 -> xbox controller converter but used a PS1 controller with on off buttons only, which worked great. (you can feel it bottom out though)

[AvengeR]

Actually, they still do have pressure-sensitive buttons.  It's just that most games don't bother to use them in that way.  Analog triggers are much easier to use for throttling the amount of pressure, and games generally don't need more than 2 such inputs (usually gas and brake for driving games, which if you ask me is pretty much why they were invented in the first place).

One game that can use the sensitivity is Gran Turismo 5, although I would switch to the analog triggers anyway because it makes it a lot easier.  Well, before I got a wheel I would.  

I know for a fact that the 360 does not. Also the interwebz says ps3 doesn't as well but I'm not so sure because i know gt5 uses X for the accelerator.

racing games are a great example. Logitech charges $150 just for a third motion sensitive button (g27 v. driving force gt)

also you spot the problem perfectly: companies don't think they are needed because in reality they just aren't for most people. Almost no one appreciates clutch in racing games and even less people care about pressing it smoothly.
The thing is pressure sensitive buttons have such a great potential. The best example I can think of now is a fps game in which you have perfect control of your movements.

[elef]

Analog (=not on-off) controls are pretty much a must for enjoying driving games, so it's far from a useless feature.
I have GT5 and a PS3 slim, so I went ahead and tried it just now. I remapped throttle and brake to the triggers when I got the game in order to get analog controls, and even murmured "what were they thinking" under my breath. It turns out that the face buttons are indeed pressure sensitive, which I never expected. You get passable control with them, I can keep the car at 1/4, 1/3 or 1/2 throttle fairly easily, but of course I have to watch the on-screen throttle and brake displays for that. The trigger buttons are way better, because you always know how far you've pressed them without having to rely on some in-game indirect feedback.

So I guess that settles it, the PS3 has pressure sensitive face buttons (all 8 of them), but nobody knows it. They don't work all that great, to be honest. I'm not sure when I got my ps3, about a year ago I guess. There might have been a silent hw revision since I got mine, but I seriously doubt they took out the feature. Mine is a slim so there has been no major announced hardware change since it was made.

I have no idea what technology sony uses for this, but it's somewhat promising for the MS tech. These things don't feel any different from any rubber domes when they bottom out, so the pressure sensitivity could be an add-on that doesn't change the button feel at all. Of course it would only work with keyboards where you have to bottom out all the time, so mechanicals are pretty much out. Again, they don't give you too nuanced control, but they could be used for adjusting the weight where keypresses are registered, and some scrolling/panning/zooming/moving around features.

[clickclack]

This might still be semi on topic-

My PS2 controler is pressure sensitive and used it extensively for the GT series. My friends PS3 controler is also pressure sensitive in the same way but also adds pressure/travel sensitivity on the L and R buttons.

Having used it a long time I can easily employ the sensitivity of the X and O buttons for further control. They are quite effective, they just have little travel since they are also tiny and tactile. If you just want to hit the button once it registers the input, if you hold it down it registers as "ON" if you press harder it registers more. It is surprisingly very, very sensitive and precise!

I hope that helped someone, somewhere in the universe.
=)

[AvengeR]

Analog (=not on-off) controls are pretty much a must for enjoying driving games, so it's far from a useless feature.
I have GT5 and a PS3 slim, so I went ahead and tried it just now. I remapped throttle and brake to the triggers when I got the game in order to get analog controls, and even murmured "what were they thinking" under my breath. It turns out that the face buttons are indeed pressure sensitive, which I never expected. You get passable control with them, I can keep the car at 1/4, 1/3 or 1/2 throttle fairly easily, but of course I have to watch the on-screen throttle and brake displays for that. The trigger buttons are way better, because you always know how far you've pressed them without having to rely on some in-game indirect feedback.

So I guess that settles it, the PS3 has pressure sensitive face buttons (all 8 of them), but nobody knows it. They don't work all that great, to be honest. I'm not sure when I got my ps3, about a year ago I guess. There might have been a silent hw revision since I got mine, but I seriously doubt they took out the feature. Mine is a slim so there has been no major announced hardware change since it was made.

I have no idea what technology sony uses for this, but it's somewhat promising for the MS tech. These things don't feel any different from any rubber domes when they bottom out, so the pressure sensitivity could be an add-on that doesn't change the button feel at all. Of course it would only work with keyboards where you have to bottom out all the time, so mechanicals are pretty much out. Again, they don't give you too nuanced control, but they could be used for adjusting the weight where keypresses are registered, and some scrolling/panning/zooming/moving around features.

the tech video from microsoft shows it supports like 200 different pressures, but sony could say the same.

So it was the second option I said. It is (still) available now but no one uses it because no games support it besides gt5.

This might still be semi on topic-

My PS2 controler is pressure sensitive and used it extensively for the GT series. My friends PS3 controler is also pressure sensitive in the same way but also adds pressure/travel sensitivity on the L and R buttons.

Having used it a long time I can easily employ the sensitivity of the X and O buttons for further control. They are quite effective, they just have little travel since they are also tiny and tactile. If you just want to hit the button once it registers the input, if you hold it down it registers as "ON" if you press harder it registers more. It is surprisingly very, very sensitive and precise!

I hope that helped someone, somewhere in the universe.
=)

I know the gt series, mgs2 and 3 (ps2) used those buttons but I can't remember other games.
maybe psp's buttons are as well?



The technology has been there for years. What it needs is software and microsoft is now probably the only company that has the influence to pull that off.

what it's interesting is why microsoft dropped pressure sensitive buttons on the 360 (xbox1 face buttons have it. 360s don't) and now comes back to the same but for keyboards.

[digitalleftovers]

what it's interesting is why microsoft dropped pressure sensitive buttons on the 360 (xbox1 face buttons have it. 360s don't) and now comes back to the same but for keyboards.

It is funny how old technology resurfaces with new purpose (or the same purpose!).

see Poqet PC (AKA the first netbook) circa 1990:

[falkentyne]

Ok, I know I'm a new poster, but I did want to say somthing.

What Microsoft did in the Sidewinder X4, is new for *keyboards* themselves, but part of the technology has actually been around for some years.  Basically, what microsoft did was use something called an 'endpoint interrupt', which would allow more than 6 button inputs to be passed simultaneously through USB (usually USB is limited to 6 keys, or 6+2 modifiers (or maybe it's 4+2, as per NKRO).  The old PS/2 port could accept any combination AND number of keystrokes; it was up to the hardware to actually send it.  With the sidewinder X4, two "endpoint interrupts" are installed, which are visible to the user as two "sidewinder X4's".

Now, the sidewinder X4 itself is capable of sending, I think, 24 (or 28?) simultaneous keystrokes.  The problem is, you get issues when you get past 12.

Andy Warne, who used endpoint interrupts for the I-pac keyboard encoders (for joystick-keyboard encoders for arcade video game controllers), found a bug (with me testing results for him) with the microsoft USB keyboard driver.  Basically, an issue occurs that causes "ghost" and "previously pressed" keys to start appearing or refusing to activate, once you get past 12 keypresses.  The I-pac2 FS32 had the same problem in early firmware, even though i twas supposed to send up to 24 simultaneously, but Andy was able to extend the number of flawless keypresses sent, from 12 to 18 (pretty sure it was either 18 or 19), by doing a workaround for the MS Keyboard driver, that involved increasing some sort of packet size.   But the sidewinder has similar issue as the original FS32, so you can't do more than 12 simultaneous presses without issues, even though the keyboard is advertised as being able to do much more.  But I don't think there is anyone who would need more than 12 presses from a keyboard, anyway.  Now a two player joystick controller is a different story

[sqgl]

I bought one and then was so pleased I bought a second one "for the road" but have since found two bugs:
(1) Intellitype software that makes programming simultaneous keypresses annoying (see thread: "SideWinder X4 Macro - Simultaneous Events via Split Option")
(2) Sidewinder X4 media keys do not play nicely with AutoHotKey

[Soarer]

The I-pac2 FS32 had the same problem in early firmware, even though i twas supposed to send up to 24 simultaneously, but Andy was able to extend the number of flawless keypresses sent, from 12 to 18 (pretty sure it was either 18 or 19), by doing a workaround for the MS Keyboard driver, that involved increasing some sort of packet size.

Welcome, falkentyne!

The way to get really silly numbers of keys simultaneously is to use one bit per key (instead of a byte). You might find this NKRO thread, and the threads linked from it, interesting (if you like that sort of thing) :-)

Plus, using bits completely bypasses the bug, so it works 100% correctly even with older Windows versions (e.g. XP).

[Henry Allen Venture]

This pressure sensitive stuff sounds pretty interesting.
As someone mentioned much earlier in the thread, it seems to me like it might be much better suited to linear switches, particularly the stiffer MX Black switches.
I'd love for a 6Gv2 (or similar) that supported this feature.
Ideally I'd have it so that the pressure sensitivity only has effects on the arrow keys for adjustable scrolling speeds in general use, but it would be great to see game developers enabling the full use of pressure sensitive keys within the game itself.
Things like being able to move at different speeds in Battlefield, effectively sneaking without having to crouch for example, would be really cool.
I can't imagine what the more creative developers would come up with.

I guess there are some pretty serious hurdles to get over before developers and keyboard manufacturers will fully embrace this (or indeed any) new technology, though, so I guess I shouldn't get too optimistic.

Thanks to Paul for posting this information, though.

[All The Fire]

One thing I always hated in shooters was being told to follow someone who doesn't walk at the same pace as you, so you either zigzag or stop and start. Bring on pressure sensitive buttons.

But this thread was from a year ago, have they actually done anything about this?

[sordna]

Paul Dietz, do you know anything about this awesome looking Microsoft prototype straight-column keyboard ?
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?20470-Microsoft-prototype-split-keyboard

[Encryptor]

If anyone is interested, here is one of the related patent application publications.  I've seen his name on a few patents.  Its cool that he made a forum post.

[Henry Allen Venture]

You should have seen how OCN treated him:
http://www.overclock.net/t/736015/microsoft-sidewinder-x4

Man, that one guy was an absolute arsehole. I say good on Paul for trying to engage and share with the community.
I just hope f**kwits like that guy from the OCN thread don't discourage people like Paul from continuing to engage the community directly in the future.

[Encryptor]

You should have seen how OCN treated him:
http://www.overclock.net/t/736015/microsoft-sidewinder-x4



Of course now Geekhack is OCN......

Wow, I can't believe how OCN treated him.  And two people threatened to report him.  The guy has a ton of publications.  Some people have no respect..

I like what he said in his last post in that thread:

It seems to me the more money people spent for their keyboards, the more likely they are to have unrealistic views about how well their keyboard performs. In a similar vein, I think there are some people that REALLY want MS stuff to have problems. And that unintentionally impacts their judgement.

So true with many brands.

[Squelos]

Am I the only one that thinks  this thread is just a big massive troll ? Seems like it.

[Soarer]

Am I the only one that thinks  this thread is just a big massive troll ? Seems like it.

Yes, I think you are.