1st-World Problems ahoy: Should a Realforce user check out Cherry Browns?

[CrapTypist]

I have a JIS-format Realforce, which I generally love, apart from the way the pinky-weighted keys feel and the fact that I'm in the US so must choose between a wacky layout or a closer-to-normal layout with "improperly" labeled keys.

It's a great board. My favorite so far. However, now that this spate of smaller-format Cherry boards is arising (Noppoo, Poker, etc) my interest is piqued. I've always wanted an even smaller-footprint board, and the HHKB-inspired layout of the KBC Poker is particularly interesting.

Anyhow, layout aside, is this a fool's errand? Are Topres such godlike boards that nothing will ever compare, or is there something to the Cherry thing that warrants spending $125 to check it out?

I'd like a sharper tactile response, a uniform key weight, and better ease of typing fast without bottoming out so much.

[nocturn4l3030]

it's hard to really say what the "godlike" of boards is because it's a subjective thing.. so you really won't know for yourself until you've tried the million other boards out there.

browns / blues are a good choice imo (i'm a topre user).  if you don't like it.. you should be able to sell it on this site through the classifieds very easy

gl

[NormaJean]

I personnally have both and it is a different feeling, if you can afford to own both I say go for it

[CurtisLeon]

They are both very different switches with very different keyfeels. There is no "one size fits all" best switch. It all falls down to personal opinion.

P.S. What you described sounds like you want a Cherry Blue. The tactile point on a Brown is very subtle.

[CrapTypist]

Good info, all. I think I may well have a Cherry-ish board in my future. The blues are definitely on my radar, as well.

[.XL]

That poll is more representative of what people own, seeing as most people probably haven't tried Topre switches. If every person was given one of each we'd probably see the Topre's higher up the poll.

@OP - The tactile bump on the browns is barely noticeable. Like another poster said, the blues are more what you're looking for.

Also, the clears could be up your alley. A poker modded with clears would be the closest feel to the HHKB imo.

[RiGS]

I hate to say that, but I like my variable Topre and mx blacks equally.
The tactile bump is so light and smooth, and the switch actuates right in the middle of the bump.
Actually it feels like the Topre actuates earlier than the mx switch.
Also I get used to double tapping, and touch typing on them as well.
However the best thing I like about the topre switch is the lack of friction.

[.XL]

I hate to say that, but I like my variable Topre and mx blacks equally.
The tactile bump is so light and smooth, and the switch actuates right in the middle of the bump.
Actually it feels like the Topre actuates earlier than the mx switch.
Also I get used to double tapping, and touch typing on them as well.
However the best thing I like about the topre switch is the lack of friction.

Typing on my new Realforce 55g I can say RiGS is definitely right - compared to my Browns and Reds the switches on this Realforce feel smoother, actuate higher, and the landing is much softer. Playing with my Brown, Red, ghetto Clears, and coming back to the Realforce I know exactly what RiGS means by the lack of friction. The keys also feel fantastic, but that's not part of the switch itself

Realforce is something you have to try to understand, I guess. I like the Cherry switches but the Topre's are quite nice. When I first opened them up I kinda had the feel that this was like regular rubber domes, but after typing on rubber domes a couple hours yesterday and for about 45 minutes today, I can say without a doubt that the Topre feel is totally unique.

[mtl]

If you don't like the pinky-weighted Topre keys then brown MX may be too light for you.  I agree you're better off trying blues or clears.  Friction is definitely an issue with the tactile Cherry switches, though I never noticed it on the blacks.

[.XL]

If you don't like the pinky-weighted Topre keys then brown MX may be too light for you.  I agree you're better off trying blues or clears.  Friction is definitely an issue with the tactile Cherry switches, though I never noticed it on the blacks.

I never noticed it too much on the reds or blacks until I'd hit keys off-center. That's where the Topre's really shine IMO. No matter how you hit the keys it's always smooooooth.

Also, the pinky keys on the variable topres are 35g if memory serves me correctly. The main keys are 45g, which is what browns/reds are.

[ironman31]

I enjoy cherry switches because of the stronger bounce back they have. The springs pushing it back up allows me to type a good 20 wpm on average more than I would on a topre. Although I do like the topre better

[.XL]

I enjoy cherry switches because of the stronger bounce back they have. The springs pushing it back up allows me to type a good 20 wpm on average more than I would on a topre. Although I do like the topre better

Weird...I've found that I type faster on the Topres. It might have to do with the soft bottom out, as I tend to mash away at my keyboards

[nocturn4l3030]

hmmmmmm i just got my cherry red board today (pcb mounted)... i think they're the best transition personally from my realforce.. i'm lovin the reds

though browns were the first mech switch i tried and it's been a while since i've tried them

[theferenc]

Definitely try the clears if you're going to try a Cherry MX switch. I have a feeling that blues might just be too loud for you, and the browns feel pretty close to linear for most people. Not to push it too far off topic, but also try the buckling spring keyboards. I find they are the best alternative to the Topre switch, and the easiest to switch to after using the Topre, and vice versa. Obviously, your mileage may vary, but they definitely meet the last three points you mention. Size might be a bit of an issue though.

Honestly, I do not believe the Cherry MX switches, of any variety, compares favorably to the Topre switch. Maybe it's just me, but I just don't like the way they feel, at all. I've used all of the "current" variants, other than red (clear, brown, blue, black), and while some here compare the linear switches to the Topres, they just don't feel right to me, at all. BS and Topre, all the way. The only keyboards worth typing on.

Oh, and if you can afford it, just get the HHKB. You'll never want to go back to the silly ANSI layout, ever again.

[Surly73]

I frequently use Topre 55g, Model M and Cherry brown.  The feel of each is distinctly different.  As already said, the Topre has no friction, the 55g has fantastic tactile 'pop' and is very solid and quiet while in use.  The Cherry brown sounds "plicky", you can feel the "tactile" parts sliding inside (a feeling that isn't present on their linear switches) but I can personally build up a faster flow across the keyboard with the browns over the Topres.  I've found that although I love love love the key feel on the Topre my typing is more choppy and overall slower for some reason.  Maybe 55g is a little too heavy?  Keycaps are narrower and spaced farther apart?  I don't know.

The model M is another beast entirely.  Just for kicks I switched back to the M from the Topre at the office just yesterday.  Although I had no trouble with the model M before I find it heavy now, with keystroke friction in between Topre and Cherry, and I think I'm actually noticing that it's a chore to have to fully bottom out and the keyboard feels very subtly "slow".  My brain was probably starting to get accustomed to keystrokes registering partway through the stroke even though I continue to bottom out on all of my boards.  I guess typing on mechanicals exclusively for a while has started to retrain my muscle memory a little.  Go figure.

[theferenc]

Actually, with the Model M, I rarely ever bottom out in nearly the same way as on the Topre keyboards. That's part of what I like about it, as it feels nice to not have that shock. Though, even bottoming out on the Topre or a Cherry feels much better than on a regular keyboard, because even though you're bottoming out, it is much less hard.

[RiGS]

I never noticed it too much on the reds or blacks until I'd hit keys off-center. That's where the Topre's really shine IMO. No matter how you hit the keys it's always smooooooth.

Also, the pinky keys on the variable topres are 35g if memory serves me correctly. The main keys are 45g, which is what browns/reds are.

 
I mostly game on my keyboards, and I do not even need to hit the linear switch off-center to feel that something is wrong with it compared to the Topre.
What I find interesting is that the plastic plunger in the Topre switch slides in the key housing in a similar fashion than in the Cherry switch.





I really really hope that this will do the trick.
I wish I had a Korean friend who would send this kit for me.
If RO-59 doesn't help, I will have to say goodbye to Cherry MX.




Btw the variable 86/103 Realforce uses 30g keys for the pinky.

[keyboardlover]

I swear I remember you saying your realforce sucked in comparison to your steelseries...

[.XL]

I swear I remember you saying your realforce sucked in comparison to your steelseries...

Just now he says he feels the friction (negative connotation, but not really bashing the board), he previously said he preferred the Blacks over the Topres, and then more recently he said he's starting to enjoy the Topre 55g as much as the blacks.

[RiGS]

I don't like the 55g, because the 55g bump is too much for my taste. However I like the 45g.

[omf]

No one has mentioned how the construction of the keyboard itself (not taking into account the switches) affect the typing experience.  I've yet to use any other keyboard that felt as well engineered and put-together as the RealForce, and I don't think that has much to do with the switches being used.

[Surly73]

Actually, with the Model M, I rarely ever bottom out in nearly the same way as on the Topre keyboards. That's part of what I like about it, as it feels nice to not have that shock. Though, even bottoming out on the Topre or a Cherry feels much better than on a regular keyboard, because even though you're bottoming out, it is much less hard.

My point was partially that, despite receiving the same love as a mechanical keyboard, the model M needs to be more or less bottomed out to register the keystroke.  I find in practice that the way the springs are attached usually registered the keystrokes without a hard bottom out, however.  It's hard to get a BS board past the "buckle" without registering the stroke.

[Surly73]

I never noticed it too much on the reds or blacks until I'd hit keys off-center. That's where the Topre's really shine IMO. No matter how you hit the keys it's always smooooooth.

Also, the pinky keys on the variable topres are 35g if memory serves me correctly. The main keys are 45g, which is what browns/reds are.

 
I have to +1 this comment for sure...  This is one of the #1 things I also notice about the Topre switch.  Smooth and "frictionless" no matter how you hit the key.  It's truly outstanding (and unique) in that regard.

[Chobopants]

No one has mentioned how the construction of the keyboard itself (not taking into account the switches) affect the typing experience.  I've yet to use any other keyboard that felt as well engineered and put-together as the RealForce, and I don't think that has much to do with the switches being used.

The RF is definitely 100% solid all the way. I call it the Rolls Royce of keyboards. It's not ostentatious, it's not loud, it's just pure quality and luxury built by people who care. You may even only take it out on weekends because it cost so much and you want it to last.

I call Filco the Audi of keyboards (specifically R/RS series). It's pretty, high quality, sometimes it's a little loud, tends to have a very smooth ride but with stiffer suspension, has a few quirks that drop it below Realforce/Rolls Royce quality, but will likely be your standard driver and you'll love the thing anyway.

To continue my analogy I call Leopold the Lotus of keyboards. Fast, bumpy ride, entry level into boutique, will be hit or miss with many people but people who can see through its flaws will appreciate its unique take on the experience and it even shine in some places where the Audi doesn't (keycaps, USB cable, cable channels). A solid purchase regardless.

[HaveANiceDay]

I like my Filco a bit more than my Realforce. Both are fine, but the 30g keys on the Realforce feel "sticky", the 5g spring does virtually nothing. I guess I like the uniform low-force of browns combined with the springiness of the switch.

The Ducky is the Yugo of keyboards.  Except priced too high.

Hey you know, I come form Serbia!
Yugo is a beast! But Zastava is better ^^

[Chobopants]

I like my Filco a bit more than my Realforce. Both are fine, but the 30g keys on the Realforce feel "sticky", the 5g spring does virtually nothing. I guess I like the uniform low-force of browns combined with the springiness of the switch.

Another quote that makes me even happier that I have a 55g. Every key is so responsive and fast! I don't think I'll ever understand the desire for a variable force board. I think my fingers always expecting the same force is more conducive to reduced strain than the relative strengths of each one. At 55g my pinkies still have no issue pushing down any keys.

Perhaps it is time to invest (THIS IS A LINK):
http://store.leisurefitness.com/Body-Solid-50-lb-Strength-Grip-Trainer-P426.aspx

[HaveANiceDay]

Another quote that makes me even happier that I have a 55g. Every key is so responsive and fast! I don't think I'll ever understand the desire for a variable force board. I think my fingers always expecting the same force is more conducive to reduced strain than the relative strengths of each one. At 55g my pinkies still have no issue pushing down any keys.

Yeah, maybe I'd like all 55g better. But they don't come in tenkeyless, so it's a no-go for me (except the extinct 87u).

[.XL]

Yeah, maybe I'd like all 55g better. But they don't come in tenkeyless, so it's a no-go for me (except the extinct 87u).

It's not extinct. It's just harder to find.

I will hopefully have a white one moseying it's way over soon...

[Chobopants]

Oh, and if you can afford it, just get the HHKB. You'll never want to go back to the silly ANSI layout, ever again.

...Unless you don't use emacs. My coworker has a Happy Hacking and I just really don't like the layout.  It's not my style.

[theferenc]

It isn't just emacs, honestly. Even most of the windows shortcuts are easier, plus it puts all the keys you use closer than ANSI. Be honest, which do you use more, caps lock or control? Backspace or backslash + backtick? Escape or backtick?

Realistically, it just makes more sense from a usability perspective. But, like any new layout, you really have to use it for a while to adjust to it and evaluate it. Everyone I've met who gave it an honest shake never looked back.

[Chobopants]

It isn't just emacs, honestly. Even most of the windows shortcuts are easier, plus it puts all the keys you use closer than ANSI. Be honest, which do you use more, caps lock or control? Backspace or backslash + backtick? Escape or backtick?

Realistically, it just makes more sense from a usability perspective. But, like any new layout, you really have to use it for a while to adjust to it and evaluate it. Everyone I've met who gave it an honest shake never looked back.

- Caps lock is mapped to Control on all of my computers in every OS, it's literally a 3 second change in OS X. That's not a problem. I still use the normal left Control key for playing Starcraft so I need that key. In terms of OS shortcuts, OS X is my main OS and I find the location of Alt (command) vastly superior for ZXC shortcuts as well. My Linear R work computer has the Alt and Windows keys swapped to show this.

- I | pipe | commands | all | day | at work. As a coder I also use backslash a fair amount. Obviously not as often as backspace but I never found it in a difficult location.\n
\n
- Backtick/tilde? I'm a vim/bash user. All day.
cd ~/dev/trees

The HHKB is a neat little keyboard but I find the hassle of using the format to far outweigh the benefits of its size compared to a regular tenkeyless, unless you use emacs. Also, arrow keys. I absolutely would not push the board on someone that didn't learn on a Sun style board in the first place.

[Brummell]

It isn't just emacs, honestly. Even most of the windows shortcuts are easier, plus it puts all the keys you use closer than ANSI. Be honest, which do you use more, caps lock or control? Backspace or backslash + backtick? Escape or backtick?

Realistically, it just makes more sense from a usability perspective. But, like any new layout, you really have to use it for a while to adjust to it and evaluate it. Everyone I've met who gave it an honest shake never looked back.

I couldn't imagine that I'd ever like the HHKB until I tried it.  I absolutely love the thing.  I don't know if it's the layout, the Topres or the combination, but it has very rapidly become my favorite keyboard.  I like it better than my Realforce or my Filcos.

[.XL]

I like it better than my Realforce

No...this...this cannot be! HERESY!

[noodles256]

its all preference my brothers. An important guy once told me " you will never know what you like until you go to geekhack.org"

AMEN

[theferenc]

- Caps lock is mapped to Control on all of my computers in every OS, it's literally a 3 second change in OS X. That's not a problem. I still use the normal left Control key for playing Starcraft so I need that key. In terms of OS shortcuts, OS X is my main OS and I find the location of Alt (command) vastly superior for ZXC shortcuts as well. My Linear R work computer has the Alt and Windows keys swapped to show this.

- I | pipe | commands | all | day | at work. As a coder I also use backslash a fair amount. Obviously not as often as backspace but I never found it in a difficult location.\n
\n
- Backtick/tilde? I'm a vim/bash user. All day.
cd ~/dev/trees

The HHKB is a neat little keyboard but I find the hassle of using the format to far outweigh the benefits of its size compared to a regular tenkeyless, unless you use emacs. Also, arrow keys. I absolutely would not push the board on someone that didn't learn on a Sun style board in the first place.

I also pipe things fairly frequently, use the backtick, tilde, and backslash keys a lot. I also use vim, emacs, and tcsh. But I still hit the backspace key SIGNIFICANTLY more often than even the backslash key, and I also write in LaTeX most days.

All I'm saying is, you have to give it a fair shake. Using it for 20 minutes is useless. Would you try Dvorak or Colemak for 20 minutes, then call it quits? Also, if you're really a vim user, you shouldn't be using arrow keys, regardless, so that is a non-issue. I actually modified my HHKB xmodmap script that I use on my IBM keyboards to put the arrow functionality back on HJKL, where it belongs.

I'm not claiming it's the best for everyone. But if you're a UNIX beard (cleanshaven or not), it is definitely an improvement over standard ANSI. There's a reason Sun still uses it, after all. There was a Type 7 keyboard in ANSI layout, and apparently it didn't sell worth a damn, even on the boxes they ship with Windows.

[Brummell]

No...this...this cannot be! HERESY!

I know, it was difficult to write, but it's true.  :frown:

[Keylamity]

I don't like the 55g, because the 55g bump is too much for my taste. However I like the 45g.

Oooh, topre's in flat 45's.....dream machine baby.

[Queue]

I have to chime in here.

My first non-rubber dome keyboard was the Realforce 103UB 55g... (can I say non-rubber dome when referencing a Topre!?!).  I fell in love immediately, but had never touched a Cherry MX switch-based keyboard.  

Today, I received a (slightly defective) Noppoo Choc Mini Brown... despite my gripes about some issues with the used keyboard, I find that I do not like the Cherry MX browns.  They are way too light for me.  The tactile bump is too subtle, and I find myself making more errors on it than with the Topre.  

Also, the noise just sucks compared to the Topre 'thunk'.  I bought the Noppoo for my office (cubicle, really) but I'm concerned that others are going to be annoyed by it, whereas I think the Topre is a) pleasing and b) not that loud or annoying.

But, alas, there have been reports of theft in our office, and I don't feel like locking up a Realforce every day so it doesn't get stolen.  The Noppoo on the other hand... lol.  Just kidding.. I'll give it a week.

[.XL]

I have to chime in here.

My first non-rubber dome keyboard was the Realforce 103UB 55g... (can I say non-rubber dome when referencing a Topre!?!).  I fell in love immediately, but had never touched a Cherry MX switch-based keyboard.  

Today, I received a (slightly defective) Noppoo Choc Mini Brown... despite my gripes about some issues with the used keyboard, I find that I do not like the Cherry MX browns.  They are way too light for me.  The tactile bump is too subtle, and I find myself making more errors on it than with the Topre.  

Also, the noise just sucks compared to the Topre 'thunk'.  I bought the Noppoo for my office (cubicle, really) but I'm concerned that others are going to be annoyed by it, whereas I I think the Topre is a) pleasing and b) not that loud or annoying.

But, alas, there have been reports of theft in our office, and I don't feel like locking up a Realforce every day so it doesn't get stolen.  The Noppoo on the other hand... lol.  Just kidding.. I'll give it a week.

The Noppoo is a great board. Your issue is starting with a Realforce.

It's like getting a Ferrari for your first car and complaining about quality when you buy a Maserati as your second.

[Queue]

The Noppoo is a great board. Your issue is starting with a Realforce.

It's like getting a Ferrari for your first car and complaining about quality when you buy a Maserati as your second.

Hmmm... I consider the Realforce a Lamborghini and the Noppoo a [used] Ford Festiva.

[Queue]

I don't know what to make of that.

(All my cheap-ass rubber domes have had level keys!)

[Queue]

Shouldn't have had to do that myself, however!

[ironman31]

Realistically, it just makes more sense from a usability perspective. But, like any new layout, you really have to use it for a while to adjust to it and evaluate it. Everyone I've met who gave it an honest shake never looked back.

 
I used to have an HHKB, didn't mind the layout, but the key feel ruined it for me. I couldn't handle spending near 300 USD for a Topre that felt far inferior to my Realforce. I do have seller's regret sometimes when I think about how compact that thing was, but I'm not minding my tenkeyless Realforce at all

[Chobopants]

I used to have an HHKB, didn't mind the layout, but the key feel ruined it for me. I couldn't handle spending near 300 USD for a Topre that felt far inferior to my Realforce. I do have seller's regret sometimes when I think about how compact that thing was, but I'm not minding my tenkeyless Realforce at all

I guess I should have mentioned this too. As I said in another thread, I really consider the RF the Rolls Royce of boards (to continue the car analogy). The HHKB is...I don't even know. Whatever wants to be a Rolls Royce but is its scrappy and quirky (and more expensive???) younger brother. Hmm, something hyper boutique and goofy like a Koenigsegg. If you like the quirks and the differences it's totally a great board (though costs a stupid amount), otherwise you're better off getting the solid as a rock Realforce and being impressed at the soup to nuts luxury and solid build quality every time you type on the thing. A normal user, and yes, even your run of the mill every day power user (hey guys!) will prefer the Realforce.

That said, I actually probably prefer my Filcos overall. I like the fast, harsh, but still boutique and high end Audi R8 (my Linear R) feel I get from them. If I had to pick one board of all of mine? I'd go with the Filco Brown for overall functionality and versatility (Audi RS6). However, you better best believe I plug my RF in every moment I can when I don't need that versatility to hang back and just enjoy the ride. Sometimes I just lightly move my fingers over the keycaps to feel the texture or randomly hit the spacebar for that oh so satisfying thunk (ok that sounds creepy, screw it). I'm not going to play Starcraft on the thing (though Portal 2 and WoW on it have been amazing) but for a regular night of use this thing is plugged in more.

-- Typed on my Realforce 103UB 55g.

Edit:

Also I obviously don't use arrow keys in vim, but I have yet to find a way to map HJKL to arrow keys across all of my OSs. Easiest to just use them when they're called for.

[fullofenergy]

Who here types faster on a cherry than realforce?

[sordna]

HHKB's choice for the arrow keys is poor... having to jump a whole row, WITH YOUR PINKY, to go up/down.
It would be a way more sensible location to use IJKL (inverted T in the home row).
I use linux/vim exclusively (well, some solaris/freebsd too), however with non QWERTY layouts such as Dvorak and others, HJKL doesn't cut it. Not to mention there are a lot of applications (not necessarily editors) that use arrow keys. So I don't buy "unix users shouldn't care about arrow keys".
Such an expensive keyboard should at least be programmable... at least for the 2nd layer. How hard would that be? I mean, the Kinesis contoured keyboards have amazing programmability of both layers (super easy, no software required) since the 1990's !
Why don't more keyboards offer this feature? If HHKB/Realforce are Rolls Royces or sports cars, the Kinesis is a fighter Jet !

[theferenc]

Yeah, it's kinda weird, but at the same time, PFU had a vision for a product, and have stuck to that vision with tenacity, regardless of what others have said about it. Apparently the original developer did some sort of usability testing, and decided that was the best layout for the FN layer. The only changes they were allowing us to make, they inserted as DIP switches.

Think of it like Apple or Google. There is their way, and then there is the "wrong way". Or, in some cases, no way. While we like to rip on them for it, for the majority of their users, that's perfectly fine. I think PFU feels the same way. The majority of HHKB owners are perfectly capable of coming up with alternatives in software if they so desire, so why bother building it into the keyboards? Or some weird ass excuse like that.

I will say though, having that programmability on the Kinesis is pretty awesome, especially since I have so many system level remaps for my modified layouts. I just map them back where they belong on the kinesis, and away I can go, while still being able to use my proper layout on my 122 key. Pretty kickass.

[sordna]

theferenc, are you a Kinesis user too? I don't see it in your sig.
Regarding the HHKB, you could remap the 2nd layer in the OS, but only for those keys that don't exist in the 1st layer. Is the / on the J key the regular slash, or the numpad one? Can you check? If it's the numpad one (KP_Divide) I guess you could map IJKL to arrow keys after all, with xmodmap.

[woody]

HHKB's choice for the arrow keys is poor...

QFT.

It would be a way more sensible location to use IJKL (inverted T in the home row).

Or PL:" (pl;'), since it's most natural and has least strain on the right pinky. Then the Home/End and PgUp/PgDn need proper positions, too.

So I don't buy "unix users shouldn't care about arrow keys".

QFT.

[woody]

Is the / on the J key the regular slash, or the numpad one?

*, /, + and - must be the numpad ones.