Red will be the new brown

[Wallach]

I recently tried to go back to a brown switch board after using a HHKB Pro for a while, and I really didn't care for them either. They're not bad switches, but the way they produce tactility is just odd feeling.

As for reds, I'm not certain if they're really going to replace browns. Even with the comparably light tactility on browns, it's still there, and the action of a red doesn't feel very similar to my fingers. Ultimately I think the mass market is more interested in typing feel when looking at keyboards (an element I think Razer recognized when using blue switches in a "gaming" keyboard) and I don't know if any type of linear switch will catch on in the same way as any tactile switch for that purpose.

[Chobopants]

I split my time 50/50 between Red/Brown on a day to day basis (work = red, home = brown) and I think this backlash against Browns is kind of unwarranted. They're still amazing switches and the first ones I'd recommend to anyone looking to get into mechanicals. Reds have their own issues (once you learn to not bottom out lighter mechanical keys the feedback of Browns is quite nice) and if I had one switch to choose it'd be the Browns.

[sordna]

Speaking of which, after lubing up the stabilizers on this PLU ML-87, I'm almost diggin it more than my Filco Linear R... maybe it's the material the caps are made up. But the sound is most satisfying.

Did you lube the red stems? Could you post an article about this with more details? Sounds interesting!

[Trueepower]

I split my time 50/50 between Red/Brown on a day to day basis (work = red, home = brown) and I think this backlash against Browns is kind of unwarranted. They're still amazing switches and the first ones I'd recommend to anyone looking to get into mechanicals. Reds have their own issues (once you learn to not bottom out lighter mechanical keys the feedback of Browns is quite nice) and if I had one switch to choose it'd be the Browns.

 
Yeah, keyboards are made for typist, not for gamers. With that said, I could see red entering into the gaming market to take over a lot of the black switch keyboards. The clear switch seems to really be the odd one out. Although, there are people who like that switch as well... it seems less people do.

[The Solutor]

The clear switch seems to really be the odd one out. Although, there are people who like that switch as well... it seems less people do.

 
Clears are not more odd than browns, Browns are too linear, Clears are too stiff. The correct middle way (ergo clear) is missing in the current cherry production.

Btw Clears are less common than browns just because aren't sold in Asia.

[The Solutor]

But, there seems to be a legit following for red switches developing.

 
 EK tend (obviously) to overrate the technology behind switches.

They aren't nano sized gyoroscopes or rocket engines, they are just switches.  A 25 years old switch based on a 100+ years old technology.

A red switch is just a well known switch with a softer spring, hardly the galaxy will implode because an unforeseen detail on this.

An BTW any industries of this kind is used to test the production, firstly inside the plants, then using the worker as early tester, then selling the first batches just inside the province, the region, or the nation.

[Trueepower]

Yeah, I know how rare clears are compared to the rest of the switches. Maybe if more people tried them they would like them who knows. Cherry switches are all common to each other, but if some are more popular then you will see them produced more. If there is really a good demand for a red switch then it will be produced, and available for years to come with the other switches. If it is that good in peoples eyes.

[Input Nirvana]

EK tend (obviously) to overrate the technology behind switches.

They aren't nano sized gyoroscopes or rocket engines, they are just switches.  A 25 years old switch based on a 100+ years old technology.

A red switch is just a well known switch with a softer spring, hardly the galaxy will implode because an unforeseen detail on this.

An BTW any industries of this kind is used to test the production, firstly inside the plants, then using the worker as early tester, then selling the first batches just inside the province, the region, or the nation.

Nicely stated.

[theferenc]

I actually do think brown is a good place to start, specifically because it's a jack of all trades mediocre type switch. As mentioned before, it has a little of everything Cherry MX offers. Push fast and hard, it's pretty close to linear. Type slowly or softly, it's tactile. If you like the tactility, move to blue. If you like the linearity, move to red. If it's too light, try clear or black.

Besides, a lot of folks like them, specifically because they are the mediocre (read: average) switch. There's not much explicitly wrong with them, after all. I don't like them, many others don't like them, but that doesn't mean they are bad switches. Just not for us.

I don't think reds should be a first switch. It's too specialized, from my perspective. It's a light force linear switch, so you don't have anything to compare it to, really, and you don't know where to go next if it doesn't click for you (pun not intended).

[Tony]

If you bottom out every key, you will not find the tactile bump of brown very clearly. But with softer hands, you tend to float over the keyboards and tapping the keys with just enough force, you will appreciate the tactile brown greatly.


The tactile bump of brown is most felt when you press just over the actuation point 2mm, not at bottom out 4mm.

So if you bottom out often, you will find reds softer to your liking, since with brown you have to use stronger force (55g) to overcome the pressure point.

[Trueepower]

If you bottom out every key, you will not find the tactile bump of brown very clearly. But with softer hands, you tend to float over the keyboards and tapping the keys with just enough force, you will appreciate the tactile brown greatly.

Show Image

The tactile bump of brown is most felt when you press just over the actuation point 2mm, not at bottom out 4mm.

So if you bottom out often, you will find reds softer to your liking, since with brown you have to use stronger force (55g) to overcome the pressure point.

That's well said Tony. The pressure to overcome the pressure point is what a lot of people don't like because they just bottom out anyways. Others who are touch typist love it. Most people who just type, and don't game should still appreciate a brown switch over a red one. That's why you hear brown typist-gamer switch, and red gamer-typist switch. Linear is preferred by most for games, and tactile for typing. It's the reverse for some. I know for me it was just like that. I didn't like tactile for gaming mostly, although for typing it wasn't necessary for me either.

Brown is a good switch to try first. Then you can go off of that to find something as the above poster said.

[sordna]

Others who are touch typist love it. Most people who just type, and don't game should still appreciate a brown switch over a red one.

I touch type, don't play games, yet I prefer the red switches to the browns. However it might have to do with my keyboard, which has a configurable "click" sound. It helps a lot! When I turn the sound off, I tend bottom out with either of those switches. That helped me realize the browns' tactility is not crisp enough.

[The Solutor]

Brown is a good switch to try first.

If cherry boards were available to test in every computer shop, likely, they were the less sold kind of switches, instead the only way to test a cherry board (for a newcomer) is to buy one of it, so people buy browns to avoid risky choices.

[Input Nirvana]

I think I have my list of 1 or 2 of each Cherry MX switch below to make the grand comparison. I think it will cost about $10-15. I don't think I'm missing any?

I'll get PCB mount.

-red
-black
-brown
-blue
-clear
-ergo clear (clear stem/brown-red-blue spring)
-tacto clear (clear stem/black spring)

[Tony]

I think brown is like conventional, tried-and-true Honda or Ford, while red is like racy, speedy and spicy Ferarri or Lamborghini.

We are different so there is always considerable demand for both switches, but most will prefer brown.

Talk about prices, reds are more expensive because they're sold in smaller number, so cost per each red product is higher than brown's.

[litster]

I think I have my list of 1 or 2 of each Cherry MX switch below to make the grand comparison. I think it will cost about $10-15. I don't think I'm missing any?

I'll get PCB mount.

-red
-black
-brown
-blue
-clear
-ergo clear (clear stem/brown-red-blue spring)
-tacto clear (clear stem/black spring)

 
I am thinking about doing the same thing.  I just bought 2 goldtouch numpads for the job.  I think they are plate mounted. I don't have loose brown or red switches.  The only switches I could think of now are the green and grey switches.  Green is the spacebar switch for some older blue or black boards.  Grey is the spacebar switch for some older clear boards.  I just harvested one from an old Cherry board with clear switches.  Would be cool to use the clear blank caps from round three group buy.  Self explantory.

[The Solutor]

-tacto clear (clear stem/black spring)

 
From my test black's and clear's springs looks different acts the same

BTW there's another option that maybe worth to try.

Glued Blues, I'm experimenting this right now with a couple of blue guinea pigs...

[Input Nirvana]

I didn't concern myself too much with "spacebar" switches, maybe they should be in a comparison batch as well?

Your thoughts?

[litster]

Glued blue?  Like the white piston is glued to the blue stem?

[litster]

I didn't concern myself too much with "spacebar" switches, maybe they should be in a comparison batch as well?

Your thoughts?

The green and grey switches are harder to come by.  I would skip them unless you want a really complete set.  I think I only have one green and two greys from old boards.

[Input Nirvana]

From my test black's and clear's springs looks different acts the same

BTW there's another option that maybe worth to try.

Glued Blues, I'm experimenting this right now with a couple of blue guinea pigs...

 
What would those be like? Can't wait to hear that option.

[Input Nirvana]

I am thinking about doing the same thing.  I just bought 2 goldtouch numpads for the job.  I think they are plate mounted. I don't have loose brown or red switches.  The only switches I could think of now are the green and grey switches.  Green is the spacebar switch for some older blue or black boards.  Grey is the spacebar switch for some older clear boards.  I just harvested one from an old Cherry board with clear switches.  Would be cool to use the clear blank caps from round three group buy.  Self explantory.

 I didn't concern myself too much with "spacebar" switches, maybe they should be in a comparison batch as well?

Your thoughts?

[Input Nirvana]

The green and grey switches are harder to come by.  I would skip them unless you want a really complete set.  I think I only have one green and two greys from old boards.

I'll just deal with the majority of the switches and forego the spacebar ones. I'll try looking at buying the individual switches needed for the comparison. Hope that's not too much of a hassle.

[litster]

I'll just deal with the majority of the switches and forego the spacebar ones. I'll try looking at buying the individual switches needed for the comparison. Hope that's not too much of a hassle.

I hope the goldtouch numpads I get will have browns.  then I will only have to worry about buying a few red switches.  I don't want to butcher my Filco reds.  I could do ghetto red, but if I use the clear blank caps, they would not look right.  I think either PCHome or ArmyGroup has red switches.

[Input Nirvana]

I gotta buy all the switches, maybe from one source (I hope)

[litster]

I can trade you black and clear switches.  I have a lot of them.  If you are going to buy, buy some extra reds/blues/browns and I can trade you blacks and clears for them.

[daerid]

Did you lube the red stems? Could you post an article about this with more details? Sounds interesting!

No, not the stems. Just the stabilizers, the little metal wires under the space, shift keys, enter and backspace. They were all sorts of loose when I pulled it out of the box, rattling all over the place. Now they're whisper quiet, just like the rest of the board.

As for how I did it, I followed Ripster's wiki, here

[Input Nirvana]

Quantities?

[litster]

I can give you 10 blacks and 10 clears.  We can adjust more or less depends on how many you need.  Like I said, I have a lot of them (200+ clears, 100+ blacks, more if I desolder more keyboards that I have).  Besides real black and real clear, you need clear + red/brown/blue switches for ergo clear, and black spring + clear stem for tacto clear.

For me I would like 6 reds, 6 blues (for its springs), and 6 browns minimum.  A few more of them would be great.  I have some blues so I could get by with no blues and more browns.  but blues would help.  This could change if the goldtouch numpads come with browns, then I would not need browns.  How many do you want to to have for your sets?

I am kinda complicated...

[Input Nirvana]

Not complicated. As soon as you get your numpads, re-figue the quantities and PM me. I'll do a little thinking too.

[litster]

Sounds good.

Sorry guys, for hijacking the thread.

[elitekeyboards]

EK tend (obviously) to overrate the technology behind switches.

What does that even mean? Overrate? You're just being disagreeable.

An BTW any industries of this kind is used to test the production, firstly inside the plants, then using the worker as early tester, then selling the first batches just inside the province, the region, or the nation.

Once again you're incorrect (you think you'd learn, and do your research for once, but I guess that is part of your charm and commitment to this community...) This wasn't the case with the Red switch. It started its life as a specially commissioned enthusiast product with exclusive distribution by Scythe Japan a couple years back until the contract recently expired and it was made available to everyone.

Talk about prices, reds are more expensive because they're sold in smaller number, so cost per each red product is higher than brown's.

 
Nah, someone just knows people will pay considerably more for something "limited" and new. Marketing 101.

[Zhuni]

Not everyone is the same. I absolutely HATE the bump

You been using them for a year but yet haven't learned to touch type?

 
He said he bottoms out....he didn't mention touch typing.

[kaiserreich]

I hope the goldtouch numpads I get will have browns.  then I will only have to worry about buying a few red switches.  I don't want to butcher my Filco reds.  I could do ghetto red, but if I use the clear blank caps, they would not look right.  I think either PCHome or ArmyGroup has red switches.

 
I don't think getting from AG would be a good idea since for each additional item, NT$100 is added to the price, so each individual switch counts. Either consider getting someone in Taiwan to ship it for you, which saves the extra item fee + some shipping cost, or get qtan to order from Taobao. However, prices at Taobao are about 50% more than AG pricing, and they are mostly out of stock even if they get it listed

[FILCO]

EK doesn't believe in reds. If you want reds, just get some Rosewills coming soon near a Newegg near you.

[Trueepower]

Is this EK guy from the company of Elitekeyboards? I thought this was just some kid on here talking. No business man who knows what is best talks like that. I would never buy from EK with someone from their company talking like that.

Anyways, all switches have their place. All of them should be available for a better selection. I think as mech boards become more popular that will be the case. Better selection across the board. Let's just hope the quality doesn't get worse. Probably will though based on how things work. Geekhack will be even more important for consumers looking to find the best keyboards.

Happy 4th everyone! Keep the pets inside! Don't get too drunk, and burn down your house!

[elitekeyboards]

Is this EK guy from the company of Elitekeyboards? I thought this was just some kid on here talking. No business man who knows what is best talks like that. I would never buy from EK with someone from their company talking like that.

 
Yep, I'm the owner, I used to post under the name majestouch. If you're so inclined to prefer businessmen who lie through their teeth at you, then please don't buy my products; I speak my mind from time to time:) If you want to measure reproductive organs with me, PM me, this isn't the place.

I'm not asking for any special treatment, but if it gives you some perspective...

I'm also the guy who brought FILCO keyboards to the US for the first time, and the guy who pushed and pushed FILCO for product improvements. My complaints, conceived with the help of the geekhack community, and EK customer feedback are the reason there is a Majestouch "2" series.

EK is also the company that painstakingly tested and filtered out FILCO keyboards when they were failing at rates >5% right from the factory, in effect giving FILCO a very solid and undeserved name in the Western markets over the past 2 years. I've got boxes of dead FILCOs in my storage to prove it.

More related to this thread, I'm also the guy who asked FILCO to make boards with Red switches 2 years ago...

BTW, if I pick you out of a crowd, chances are you've really earned it;) I've been around geekhack for quite some time, as not only has it always been the "go-to" touchstone for the mech keyboard market, but, at least in the past, the crowd here had a very high level of maturity and sense of community. I've never given up on geekhack, though as of late there has been a bevy of new members who, by no fault of their own, do not know who I am or the history of geekhack; so at times I have to have a lot of patience. However, it's not my personality to be like every other left to right salesman, can't help it. I'm a customer too, and I don't like it when some company tells me their FR4 improves typing feel or that their gold plated USB connectors reduce latency...if you like eating that BS, sorry, I'm not serving it. So look elsewhere and use your forum options to ignore me.

Anyways, all switches have their place. All of them should be available for a better selection. I think as mech boards become more popular that will be the case. Better selection across the board. Let's just hope the quality doesn't get worse. Probably will though based on how things work. Geekhack will be even more important for consumers looking to find the best keyboards.

And why would "things" get worse?

[elitekeyboards]

I'm sorry, but have you seen geekhack the past few months? I would hardly say that the community as a whole has any kind of maturity whatsoever. And the only sense of "community" is that people can throw money at a "group buy". It's degraded into "what keyboard should I buy?" and trolls trolling trolls. For someone who claims to be on geekhack for some time, you surely haven't been on here much recently.

/rant

You're not familiar with Immanuel Kant's "categorical imperative" are you? I still have some hope for geekhack, but someone needs to stand up to the trolls. You gonna side with me and be part of progress or just tell me I haven't been here recently and be a partner of the gradual degradation?

[HaiiYaa]

elitekeyboards should I return the redswitch keyboard I recieve today and get a brown?

[The Solutor]

What does that even mean? Overrate? You're just being disagreeable.

 
I think you understood perfectly what I mean.

Once again you're incorrect

When I say something wrong I'm used to apologize, happens rarely but happens, btw hardly I provided an incorrect information here, so "once again" is referred to ?

Back to reds what changes this detail ? Who ordered them made the order for a reason.

Tested by Cherry, by the customer, or by both what changes ? They are tested, and this is enough.

Calling a product not mature just because you don't like it is not so fair.

[theferenc]

acfrazier, I think what EK is saying is that, in the past, this was a mature, knowledgeable forum. Unfortunately, it's currently degraded to absolute crap, as you mention. I don't think I've even seen iMav post in months in the keyboard forum. When even the owner is avoiding it, you know something is wrong.

We really need to fix this, or the community is going to turn in to nothing but a more arrogant OCN.

[Chobopants]

acfrazier, I think what EK is saying is that, in the past, this was a mature, knowledgeable forum. Unfortunately, it's currently degraded to absolute crap, as you mention. I don't think I've even seen iMav post in months in the keyboard forum. When even the owner is avoiding it, you know something is wrong.

We really need to fix this, or the community is going to turn in to nothing but a more arrogant OCN.

I have to say that as recently as 2-3 months ago the forum seemed way more professional and mature. People would generally ignore Ripster's silly Glee/Lego posts and see the value that he added to the forum outside of that. Everyone else was working mods and trying things out and contributing to keyboard science. The past 2-3 weeks, however, have made me kind of sick. Meh. Even this thread, which has at least a fundamental foundation in something that could be useful, degraded pretty quickly into "MY SWITCH IS BETTER!" when it really just boils down to everyone having different preferences. I love my red switches but actually strongly disagree that they're "the next brown." I'm not going to call you stupid for thinking otherwise, though.

Back to the more interesting issue that arose in this thread, I'm very interested in this switch try board input nirvana. As there really aren't any good options for trying out ergo/tacto clears out there I'd love to see what all the hype is about. Add me to the list if you're putting one together.

[The Solutor]

We really need to fix this,

Yes we need a borg like forum, where all are assimilated, and no one argue.

Instead here we have even people who like logitech boards, who ask why a topre keypad is sold for 129$, or if a filco is worth the price.

Really incredible, communists are still alive (maybe are just aliens) :becky:

[csm725]

I think that I would love Red switches, not sure about 'the next Brown' but they are not easily acquired in the US which leads to very little awareness and/or usage of them; also Cherry Corp. halted production a few years ago due to low global need for the product which is why these switches are relatively rare and unpopular.

[Input Nirvana]

I'm sorry, but have you seen geekhack the past few months? I would hardly say that the community as a whole has any kind of maturity whatsoever. And the only sense of "community" is that people can throw money at a "group buy". It's degraded into "what keyboard should I buy?" and trolls trolling trolls. For someone who claims to be on geekhack for some time, you surely haven't been on here much recently.

/rant

Said by the individual (with whom I've had no previous contact with) last week called me a moron and that he hopes I get bitten in the ass. Pot/Kettle=Black.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 20048[/ATTACH]


As far as EK goes, if you dig past the flak, there is a clear product message. The delivery is a bit harsh and causes people to tune out

Chobopants: PM me and we can put together a "switch sample box" with a couple people in a month.

[HaiiYaa]

Again I ask.

Should i return the red switches and get brown switches instead, as EK said they haven't been tested enough?

[sordna]

They haven't been tested from a market perspective as thoroughly as the other switches. Quality-wise they are exactly the same. It's a matter of what feel you prefer.
To me they are the best feeling switch ever. But it's really a matter of personal preference.

[hybridsoul5]

What do your fingers tell you?

[HaiiYaa]

What do your fingers tell you?

That they are the only switches I love everything about
I hate tactile switches like brown, clear, or blue. The bump is so annoying
Blacks are too stiff
Reds are just flawless for me

[Chobopants]

That they are the only switches I love everything about
I hate tactile switches like brown, clear, or blue. The bump is so annoying
Blacks are too stiff
Reds are just flawless for me

Haha, then keep them! It's all preference man. I love all my switches for different reasons and swap between them often depending on my mood!

@input nirvana - sending PM now.

@ripster - holy crap, I'm glad I missed all that drama, sounds like that thread was intense.

Like I said previously...I logged onto the IRC channel for a week and all it was was people who didn't contribute to the forum complaining about ripster/others and talking about bitcoin. The few times I asked for help about my Leopold all I got was made fun of for not using a BS/capacitive board. IIRC it was ripster who actually suggested I grease the stabilizers and see if it helps. So much for not being helpful.

Also, most of these people coming on here and starting drama have been on the forum for < 6 months, I'm confused as to what makes them think that they have the right to dictate how it should work. Meh, just gotta hope it subsides I guess.