Dang... peroxide DOES burn

[litster]

So its just a matter of dumping keycaps, keyboard exterior in a bucket of peroxide and leaving it out in the sun until done?

It sounds much better/safer than the other method!

OxyClean alone + water under the sun has proven to work.  The unknown is if OxyClean works without being under the Sun, and what is the minimum mix ratio.  A professional chemist would be able to tell us.  But we are just techies, so we experiment.  If you don't care to know the most cost effective mix ratio, just use more than you think you need, put it under the sun, and be done with it.  

[Oqsy]

litster: sorry, I've been butchering your name, my bad eyes really have trouble with lower case letter "i" and lowercase letter "l".  

Also InputNirvana, did you mention that you  have multiple Kinesis boards and are considering selling?  I'd be interested if the price is within my budget, perhaps we can talk in PM if you have any up for grabs.

[Input Nirvana]

Nah, let's pollute the forum with our backroom dealings....

You know the price triples after they get the Oqsy-Oxy bath?  

[litster]

Oqsy, no problem.  At least you didn't call me lister!  LOL!  *wink*

[Oqsy]

InputNirvana: I'm hoping I can catch you on a bad math day when you think you're charging me triple, but only charge me 1/3.

[Input Nirvana]

Dude, that was YESTERDAY...lol

[kaiserreich]

OxyClean alone + water under the sun has proven to work.  The unknown is if OxyClean works without being under the Sun, and what is the minimum mix ratio.  A professional chemist would be able to tell us.  But we are just techies, so we experiment.  If you don't care to know the most cost effective mix ratio, just use more than you think you need, put it under the sun, and be done with it.  

I have a bottle of developer with 12% H2O2, since it was thick and paste like, I used it straight from the bottle.

Where I live, we get almost 12 hours of sunlight everyday. The solution dried out and it didn't really work well, took me 3 days to realize what went wrong. The next step I attempted was to put it in the shade, applied the developer generously and made sure it did not dry out. That worked better, but i only did it for da day. 7 hours in the shade in with equator sun and my case still have a slight yellow hue to it.

[Input Nirvana]

Are you going to try it again?

[kaiserreich]

Are you going to try it again?

Next weekend hopefully.
Plus I'm a getting a shipment of yellow and dirty keyboards coming my way

[Input Nirvana]

Yaaayyy! A shipment of old keyboards!!!!!!    

Anything interesting?

[kaiserreich]

Yaaayyy! A shipment of old keyboards!!!!!!    

Anything interesting?

Posted at 'It's in the mail'. Help me answer some questions if you can

[litster]

Did more experiment today.  I have a set of Dolch keycaps with yellow white letters.  Bought a new can of OxyClean from Target.  Used 2 scoops OxyClean in about 8 Oz of water.  

ScrollLock and letter G before OxyClean.  NumLock and 8 are controls.


Numpad * and numpad 3 before OxyClean.  NumLock and 8 are controls.


After 5 hours of direct sun in OxyClean solution.  ScrollLock and letter G were in OxyClean *under* the sun for 5 hours.  Numpad * and numpad 3 after 5 hours indoor (no sun) in OxyClean solution.  


It is not dramatic, but you can see ScrollLock and the letter G getting whiter.  Numpad * and Numpad 3, although in the same OxyClean solution but without sun, didn't not get whiter.

[Input Nirvana]

A-ha!
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 22189[/ATTACH]

[/SIZE][/COLOR]What happened to just using the recommended amount that oqsy tried?

I notice your dark keys did not get whitened like mine did (lucky you or maybe a function of the type of plastic).

Is this what you used, the 6 pound container of Oxy-Clean?
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 22191[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 22190[/ATTACH]
2 scoops=1 cup. 1 scoop= 1/2 cup per gallon recommended (weakest).

My whitened keys are a mystery until I do others (of the same key) at a much lower concentration than 10x like I did before.

[litster]

The pre-soak formula outside the OxyClean can says 1 scoop to 16 oz.  I did 2 scoops to 8 oz.  That is 4x the recommended ratio for pre-soak.  Forecast is rainy tomorrow and the next few days.  Next time we have a sunny day, should be Thursday, I will use new solution (same ratio) to continue the whitening process.

[Input Nirvana]

This whole "scoop" measuring is a problem. Different size scoops. I'm guessing you bought a smaller container than 6 pounds?


The 6 pound Oxy-Clean has these directions:
1/4 scoop (2 tablespoons) for 16oz for pre-treat.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 22192[/ATTACH]

Also--Nice pics of the keys!

[litster]

This is what is on my can of OxyClean, and the size of the scoop that comes with my small can.

[Input Nirvana]

The "scoop-conspiracy" has been solved!

Looks like we have a typical case of "scoop-envy". Your scoop ain't no 1/2 cup!

The upper right side of the graphic directions say 1 scoop=? (what is that measurement?)

[litster]

1 scoop == 2 tbsp

And I made a mistake.  it should be pre-treat, not pre-soak.

[Oqsy]

For the record I have the six lb tub and 1/2 cup scoop.

[Input Nirvana]

Ok, this is what I am coming up with:

First, let's convert scoops to actual unit measurements. Litster scoop=2 tablespoons, Oqsy scoop=the 6 pound tub scoop 1/2 cup=8 tablespoons. Litsters pre-treat directions state 1 scoop=2 tablespoons. Oqsy 6 pound tub pre-treat state 1/4 scoop=2 tablespoons. That translates to the same mix at 1 cup per gallon, so that checks out, the same stuff, same strength.

-- Oxy Clean mixes range from 1/2 cup per gallon (weakest) to 1 cup per gallon (strongest) --

Litster used *2 scoops* (4 tablespoons in 8oz water=4 cups per 1 gallon). 4x the recommended MAX strength.

Oqsy used *4 scoops* (2 cups in 4 gallons=1/2 cup per 1 gallon). The recommended weakest mix ratio for Oxy Clean. 1x the weakest mix seems to work!

So we now know:
No sun=No deal
1x and 4x strengths do the job (maybe less will do it also)

THE BOTTOM LINE:
Recommended mix of the name brand "Oxy Clean" and water in sunlight for the first 6 hours or less gets rid of that yellow piss look. No caustic chemicals/mixing/equipment needed, it's the cheapest (costs pennies per gallon), least dangerous (it's a household fabric-safe cleaner), available everywhere, easiest (powder, water, container, sun), and over-dosing many times over doesn't seem to cause any problems/damage.

Share if you have experiences. Try to convert to standard units of measure to avoid some of the run around earlier in the thread (no more pooper-scooper). We still don't know the actual amount of solution needed, it seems much less than required to submerge the parts, so that's a moot issue. The various types of plastics may be affected differently as I had some keys that were considerably lightened.

I think we are at the point of confirming with a few more of these projects, that the 1/2 to 1 cup per gallon Oxy Clean mix in the sun is adequate to eliminate the yellow. Photos are always welcome.

[Input Nirvana]

Maybe I'm not seeing it. The SCROLL ant G keys look like the underside of the top key to me.

[litster]

So what kind of scientific experiment is this if you guys don't do control samples with the original RetrObrite formula?

I think we already know both methods work.  They are both effective.  One is paste form, one is liquid form.  Different options for different applications.

[The Solutor]

One is paste form, one is liquid form.  Different options for different applications.

BTW, here Oxy clean is almost unknown, Vanish Oxi Action is a well known similar product, and it's available also in gel form, good to clean parts that can't be submerged.

I presume that also Oxy clean has a similar product in its line.

[Oqsy]

So what kind of scientific experiment is this if you guys don't do control samples with the original RetrObrite formula?

So likeable. I have no idea where Ripster-haters get their kooky ideas...

[Input Nirvana]

So what kind of scientific experiment is this if you guys don't do control samples with the original RetrObrite formula?

Hey, this ain't no science experiment...we're just doing laundry

2 good Ripster points:
1) I need to make Retrobrite paste for 2 case bottoms I can't submerge (due to paper labels). So I'm waiting to Oxy the rest until I can make that comparison with Retrobrite at the same time. Might as well make it into a science experiment to satisfy the skeptics.

2) Taking accurate pics is a big part of the documentation process. I'll be much more diligent with photos, and no more shoddy cellphone pics.

I'm not absolutely positive Oxy alone is quite as good as Retrobrite (yet), but at this point it's definitely safe to say several of us have achieved 95% or better with Oxy mixes ranging from the weakest recommended to about 5x the strongest recommended. A few more keyboards, keys, people, plastics, degrees of yellow, and locations should give a more accurate sampling of what can be reasonably achieved.

[Input Nirvana]

The original Retrobrite article:
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:9099

False_Dmitry_II (moved his post to a wiki), who I talked with before we started the Oxy Clean only process:
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:20283

Also not sure it's any cheaper. The Hydrogen Peroxide gel hair stuff I used was $3 a 500ml bottle and people report good results just painting it on with a brush and putting out in bright light or better under a CFL so it won't dry out. For lots of keys the paste would be a PITA.

[/FONT]
[/URL]Brush on a gel hydrogen peroxide? That sounds pretty good, I missed those posts, I'll go read them. That sounds like it would still be overall easier, cheap, and less caustic than the Full-Monty Retrobrite method.

[kaiserreich]

So, liquid for keys, paste for cases.

Gonna get some Vanish oxi clean to put with my 12% Developer and see magic

[Input Nirvana]

So, liquid for keys, paste for cases.

Gonna get some Vanish oxi clean to put with my 12% Developer and see magic

Show Image

Look at that thing! It appears it's been chain smoking for about 15 years non-stop.

This would be a great BEFORE/AFTER project to show.

[Oqsy]

A lot of work for a Fujitsu Peerless.

Again, helpful and kind. I love your new positive outlook.

[kaiserreich]

Just doing it for the lulz

A before and after picture, the best I've ever seen was on that C64 at the Retr0bright website

edit:

http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2009-03-22-deyellowing-paste-trial-on-c64.htm

now I know what the dried solution did to my case

[Input Nirvana]

What's the story? The developer gel dried?

[kaiserreich]

Yes, the gel dried out in the hot sun. Thus I have white spots over my beige keyboard

[Input Nirvana]

Are you going to try to whiten it again to even it out a bit?

[Input Nirvana]

Here is a link, can't read a single word. It appears he is (oxyclean???) his Kinesis Conoured indoors, I think with 160 degree water, need confirmation of that.

If you click the thumbnails about a dozen pics to the right you can see part of the process. Go another 10 pics and you can see a cool all black reclining (gaming?) computing setup he's got. From the original starting point of the link, if you go about 10 pics to the left, he has a super-rad office chair. I've seen before, but don't remember what it is. It's very notable, I think it's about $1,000+

http://ameblo.jp/martin777/image-10719620844-10883991805.html

[Oqsy]

Whats with the close up of the diarrhea in the bathtub?  Oh...  .jp

Nevermind.

[Input Nirvana]

I may have something interesting to report. The Kinesis white case top I oxy-cleaned seems to be slightly yellow exactly where my hands rest on the case. EXACTLY. I need to look at it again closely tomorrow under different light. If it is real, I'll oxy it again and see if there is a difference. I find it hard to believe it was there the whole time after I did the oxy, but maybe it was. I doubt I can take picture of it, it's slight.

Interesting, huh?

[Oqsy]

GASP!

But this is inconsistent with what we are trying to trick people into believing!

[Oqsy]

I told you to use the inaccurate model from England that predicts the results we want instead of the truth!

[Input Nirvana]

Oqsy-Truth?

[Oqsy]

Sorry, very specific reference to something that's probably not very funny anyway... nevermind :/

[Input Nirvana]

In a week (when I'm home again), I'll get the gel hydrogen peroxide so I'll be prepared for when the sun shines again. I live on a peninsula, I can see sun 2 miles away, but generally live under a fog bank. So hopefully in a month I will do this comparison:
-gel
-1x oxy (confident doing many times stronger is sorta pointless)
-gel with a little oxy added
-probably retrobrite for comparison

With before/after pics (light keys and a few dark keys) and a control. Doing all that, will eat up 6 hours easy. This will be my definitive comparison, after this, I will settle on just one way. If I can do it properly, this should be the linkable linky-link for a somewhat reasonable comparison for people to consider and evaluate. Keyboard pseudo-science at it's best.

I'm curious about that link I posted that shows someone doing the whitening indoors....wish I knew what was going on there.

[Oqsy]

Japanese scat. Nothing to see there.

[litster]

The best ramen I have had IMO is Ramen Santouka.  I have been to the one in Costa Mesa, CA and Vancouver, BC.  The "salt"  flavor is the best. 4 to 4.5 starts on yelp.

[enoy21]

Damn this was alot to skim through. So as a final verdict.....


For key caps the safest most cost effective method is:

Oxyclean 2x recommended strength for pre-treat option on label
Glass or thick plastic container
Sun

Let caps soak for 6 hours in the sun , Rinse/Repeat as necessary ?

Since the sun seems to have been proven to make a difference , It's recommended to get a flat container so they all get direct sun access or is it really the HEAT ( Like that from a washing machine ) that activates the product ? Otherwise I would think a jar would be a bad option due to direct sun access.

[Input Nirvana]

Yes, this thread is quite unnecessarily long, (I'm a big factor in this) since there was a lot of 'thread thinking' rather than just 'thread posting'. Of course, a bunch of other nerdies got pretty excited and contributed equally

Primarily, the meat of the thread is that Oxy at a regular, on-label ratio works by itself, in the sun. Heat is not a needed item, but it may affect the speed.

Secondarily, there are several methods to use, like Dentue-Tabs, hydrogen peroxide gel (which is also cheap), or the actual Retrobrite recipe. They all seem to work about the same.

NOTE: The only real caution is the potential 'mottling effect' if you let gel dry on the plastic. Also a couple of use 'lightened' darker plastics with WAY TOO STRONG mixes.

What we have more or less determined, is that there are several relatively 'safe' ways to lighten yellow plastics, that are cheap and easy. Don't make it too technical, complicated or waste a lot of time on it. Read what we have done for info and see how we got here, but don't reinvent the wheel. There is no gain.

[enoy21]

Yeah , I think I went too strong and at some point had some mixture left on a couple of darker keys, they are now a faded off color.    The 37 main keys mixture might have been a bit strong as well because the lettering is faded somewhat on the top , but the inside coloring is still a dark rich blue.

They still have a bit of a yellow color on the keys though. The bottom edge of the key and the bottom of the space bar look like they should be a light grey with no yellowing at all.  Strange.

[Input Nirvana]

It's not an exact science, but probably the worst is over-strength for too long, or letting gel dry.

No reason to go too strong, the stuff is so cheap there is no monetary loss. Impatience is a big factor I've noticed

[spikeh]

I'm so glad I found this thread, especially the information on Dolch keycaps from litster. I got hold of some rare ISO UK Cherry doubleshots in China, but unfortunately I think the poor board has spent its time in a net cafe and the white lettering is all yellow! The side lettering (Sys Rq and Break) on Prt Sc and Pause keys are lovely and white. Thinking that I will never get another chance to acquire ISO UK doubleshots for my Filco, I'm going to try the Oxy method detailed here instead of returning the keyboard.

I only have one question I have that I couldn't find in this thread (sorry if I missed it; I did skim it... so it may be buried somewhere). Is direct sunlight on top of the container required? The Shanghainese sky is pretty overcast during the winter. Would placing it outside during the day be sufficient, or would I need to wait for the warmer months to arrive first? Could I substitute with a UV/CFL lamp?

[Input Nirvana]

UV is a factor. You can try it outside, UV comes right through light clouds unless they are pretty thick, wet, rainy. If it doesn't work you lose nothing. Then you can try with different lighting. If you use the oxy, it is active for about 6 hours, after that it's depleted. Unless it's easier to try it inside, then go for that.

Take pictures to compare and show us!

[jellowiggler]

I Oxycleaned some wyse keys for 3 sessions of 6-8 hours, stirring every hour or so, outdoors.

Little to no effect. Will try 3% peroxide mix with an oxyclean kicker next.

Maybe it was the temp?  10-15C.  I started with warm water, but within the first hour it had cooled to air temp.