F@#& It! Buying a HHKB Pro 2

[kinkng]

Better to drop close to $300 on keyboard while you're single. My girlfriend would kill me if I bought any Topre keyboard at this point.

You can still do it while you are married. You just need to intercept the UPS guy first or make sure the wife is out of the house around the time that the UPS man rolls around.

[mmmty]

Send it to work or a friend.

[daerid]

Better to drop close to $300 on keyboard while you're single. My girlfriend would kill me if I bought any Topre keyboard at this point.

Unless you live together and share bank accounts, tell her to mind her own business

[Exoverture]

What's the quality difference between the Realforce and the HHKB?

The landing of the keys did feel a bit smoother, and the overall build quality was much better. The HHKB was a bit bendy in comparison.

[kinkng]

The landing of the keys did feel a bit smoother, and the overall build quality was much better. The HHKB was a bit bendy in comparison.

I never understood why the Realforce is cheaper than the HHKB since the Realforce seems to be slightly better constructed.

[mr626]

You can still do it while you are married. You just need to intercept the UPS guy first or make sure the wife is out of the house around the time that the UPS man rolls around.

In the case of Model M boards it is even easier. You just say they are an 'investment'

[TexasFlood]

You can still do it while you are married. You just need to intercept the UPS guy first or make sure the wife is out of the house around the time that the UPS man rolls around.

In the case of Model M boards it is even easier. You just say they are an 'investment'

It's not the delivery, it's the credit card statement and wife ain't buying the 'investment' angle, :sad:

[mr626]

It's not the delivery, it's the credit card statement and wife ain't buying the 'investment' angle, :sad:

True enough. We have a system here though. I get to call things like model m boards and expensive scotch 'investments' and the wife gets to do the same for things like vintage hats. Everyone is happy (other than the bank balance).

[Aznguyen316]

Send it to work or a friend.

Lol the gf didn't say much about my first keyboard, but the second was mailed to my work =) wait until I decide to get an hhkb. That will be interesting.

[jpm804]

The landing of the keys did feel a bit smoother, and the overall build quality was much better. The HHKB was a bit bendy in comparison.

I would tend to agree with this comment. Just got my HHKB2 today, but havent had much time to type on it so take this as a first impression only.

The RF just feels slightly smoother on the keypress and keycaps feel a little bit better also. But I do like the topre switches in a smaller form factor which the RF doesnt give. Defintely some trade offs when going to the HHKB versus a RF but no keyboard is perfect.

[prd]

Hm. Thanks for the input, guys.

Would you say that a HHKB is better build than a Filco, then?

[theferenc]

I would say that, yes. There's a Filco with browns in my office, and I often bring the HHKB there as well. The fit and finish on the HHKB is better, though the Filco feels more substantial (proportional to its size).

[Aznguyen316]

@jpm804 when you get a chance, please update on your thoughts of the HHKB Pro2 in comparison to your filco brown and red since I've had experience with both switches.  Either here or your "in the mail" thread. I'm subbed. =D

also @theferenc I would like your opinions on the brown vs hhkb, the feeling of the key press is what I'm most curious about.  The tactility and how much force is required to press down either.  I read the hhkb is at 45grams yet ppl have complained of getting fatigue, but don't the browns have a higher force to actuate?

Thanks.

[Index]

The browns and topres seem to require the same amount of force to fully depress either switch. However, it's the actual keystroke each switch has that's the difference. The browns' keystroke is much smoother than the topres. With the browns the actuation point is around the middle. Whereas the topres has it's actuation point near to the top due to rubber cups. Also, the browns seem to distribute the amount of force required the fully depress it more equally throughout the keystroke. Whereas the topres seem to put most of the required force near the top.

These are the differences I felt on each switch.

I also tried gaming on the topres yesterday on sc2. Actually, it doesn't seem to make a difference imo. My hand seems to be fine even after a few games. I didn't game on them enough b/c it felt weird, so I switched back to my old Leopold. I will be giving it another go tonight.

Edit:

Also, I think read somewhere on Geekhack that someone took apart their Realforce and HHKB, then switched the rubber cups and springs between them. He/she found, if I remember correctly, that his/her HHKB felt much better after the switch

[Index]

Ugh, sorry I meant to say something else. I guess the tactile bump? Or is it the tactile force.

All I know is that the topre's has most of it's resistance near the top. Whereas the brown's resistance is more spread out throughout the keystroke, and has most of it near the middle.

[jpm804]

@jpm804 when you get a chance, please update on your thoughts of the HHKB Pro2 in comparison to your filco brown and red since I've had experience with both switches.  Either here or your "in the mail" thread. I'm subbed. =D

Thanks.

For sure... defintely need to put some more typing time with the HHKB to form a better opinion. I will update my in the mail thread with my feedback.

[Aznguyen316]

Ugh, sorry I meant to say something else. I guess the tactile bump? Or is it the tactile force.

All I know is that the topre's has most of it's resistance near the top. Whereas the brown's resistance is more spread out throughout the keystroke, and has most of it near the middle.

It's cool, I actually think I know what you mean by this. Also how hard is the tactile bump?  Some reason I wasn't a fan of it on the browns.. not sure why.

thanks jpm.  Look forward to it.

[Exoverture]

Hm. Thanks for the input, guys.

Would you say that a HHKB is better build than a Filco, then?

Yes, the build quality is better. The Filco's I've had are nothing to write home about (to be honest a DAS Pro I purchased felt more solid than a Filco) and the HHKB should feel a ton better as there are no reports of creaks/flexes unlike the filco.

[aggiejy]

Woot, FedEx brought me the goods today too!

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 22703[/ATTACH]

Quick initial random impressions:

• LOVE the size. It'll be hard to go back to even a full-size tenkeyless.
• Left side rubber foot doesn't grip, just like another person said. The back-left foot is too high, or the back right to low. Shim or shave, your choice.
• First time to touch a topre switch.  LOVE IT… so unique.  I think my browns and blues will see less use.  (Filco w/ Reds coming next week… we'll see.)
• Love the feel/texture of the keycaps
• Overall a solid feel when typing.
• Might need to pour some lead in the casing… it's a featherweight.
• I wish I could make the RIGHT command key be a function key. I never use it on that side.
• The layout is great, but the backspace location is going to take a good long while to get used to.  My right ring finger jumps straight to \ or ` when I mess up.  Funny, I was worried about the arrow keys, but they're natural.  The backspace is a freaking trip.
• Special OS X keys work great.
• This would look freaking cool if wireless… I"m just sayin.
• Looks better in person than in pictures.
• [UPDATE] Sound! Forgot to mention this before. The sound of this thing is amazing to my ears.  Subjective, but very solid sound.  Space bar especially... my MX boards have weird sounding space bars.

Update: Typing video.  First attempt... was better than the second and third, so I gave up.  About on par with my cherry speeds which aren't very speedy.
[video=youtube;4JVYjWyaoHQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JVYjWyaoHQ[/video]

[peapody]

Nice quick write up and vid. Glad you are enjoying your keyboard. Backspace for me was just fine, but Fn key, control alt and all that jazz are still invisible to me. But I guess that is because I have a blank keyboard and I have not trained myself to type properly.

[flaming_june]

I don't know about that.  Mine grips perfectly.  I also agree on the size.  I had trouble going back to 87 with realforce and don't even mention full size.  Once you figure all the keys out it's easily one of the best keyboard you'll own for many years to come.

[theferenc]

@theferenc I would like your opinions on the brown vs hhkb, the feeling of the key press is what I'm most curious about.  The tactility and how much force is required to press down either.  I read the hhkb is at 45grams yet ppl have complained of getting fatigue, but don't the browns have a higher force to actuate?

I actually think the browns feel lighter than the HHKB. I know they aren't, officially, but to my fingers, they feel it. I also am not a fan of the nearly linear feel of the brown switches, with just that little grittiness at the tactile point. The lightness makes sense on a keyboard like the Kinesis, though Sordna claims (and I think he's right) that reds feel even better in the Kinesis, I think partially because they remove that feeling of grittiness the browns have.

Also, I loves me my HHKB. It's just so damn nice to type on.

Edit: And I alternate between the HHKB and a 122 key model M. Each always shocks me with the size for a few seconds whenever I switch to it.

[aggiejy]

I actually think the browns feel lighter than the HHKB. I know they aren't, officially, but to my fingers, they feel it.

Agree 100%.  Browns feel much lighter to me.

[TheProfosist]

i do have an extra pack of the non-skid pads i used to make my board immobile. if you need them let me know though they only work with the keyboard fully flat.

[mmmty]

You're making me miss the HHKB I just sold. BTW, I have the same mouse.

[TheProfosist]

You're making me miss the HHKB I just sold. BTW, I have the same mouse.

why would yo sell a HHKB? not into the Topre's?

[mmmty]

I think it was the small form factor. I didn't use it much. I need easy access to home, end, insert, and the arrow keys. So I sold it to fund a new keyboard. I still have my other topre boards to play with.

[TheProfosist]

I think it was the small form factor. I didn't use it much. I need easy access to home, end, insert, and the arrow keys. So I sold it to fund a new keyboard. I still have my 87U to play with.

i personally love the small form factor. its great when u want alot of desk space.

[aggiejy]

...BTW, I have the same mouse.

Before keyboards, I used to be crazy into mice.  At least one a month, whatever new comes out.  When the Performance MX came out, I realized it's my perfect mouse.  I've bought a few since, but they were so underwhelming I just gave up.  

I'm deathly afraid I'll find the perfect keyboard one day and it'll end the same way.  I love this HHKB so far, but I don't think this will be *it* in the same way as that mouse.  (Thankfully!)

[Aznguyen316]

I actually think the browns feel lighter than the HHKB. I know they aren't, officially, but to my fingers, they feel it. I also am not a fan of the nearly linear feel of the brown switches, with just that little grittiness at the tactile point. The lightness makes sense on a keyboard like the Kinesis, though Sordna claims (and I think he's right) that reds feel even better in the Kinesis, I think partially because they remove that feeling of grittiness the browns have.

Also, I loves me my HHKB. It's just so damn nice to type on.

Edit: And I alternate between the HHKB and a 122 key model M. Each always shocks me with the size for a few seconds whenever I switch to it.

Yes I did not like the little "grittiness" you describe on the Cherry Browns, which is why I find the Reds very nice to type on.  But the tactility of the HHKB does not bother you like the browns do, is that right?  How does the tactile feel on the HHKB if you can describe if it is not like the browns.  thanks for the response.

[TheProfosist]

Yes I did not like the little "grittiness" you describe on the Cherry Browns, which is why I find the Reds very nice to type on.  But the tactility of the HHKB does not bother you like the browns do, is that right?  How does the tactile feel on the HHKB if you can describe if it is not like the browns.  thanks for the response.

well its not gritty because there isnt something sliding against something

[Aznguyen316]

^ yeah, I wish I could really try the topre before making the jump.  Thanks aggie for the vid, sounds nice.

[aggiejy]

The sound... can't believe I didn't mention that in my bullets.  It's one of the best parts.  Especially the space bar, which on most cherry boards sounds a bit annoying to my ears.  Every stroke on this thing sounds solid.

[TheProfosist]

The sound... can't believe I didn't mention that in my bullets.  It's one of the best parts.  Especially the space bar, which on most cherry boards sounds a bit annoying to my ears.  Every stroke on this thing sounds solid.

that reminds me from what ive read the space bar is ABS while every other key is PBT. isnt that a bit odd?

to me it does feel and look a bit different

another thing i just wondered. anyone know what the printed red escape and the printed WASD keys are made from that are sold by EK?

[aggiejy]

Yes,  the ABS space is a bit odd.  But I really wouldn't have noticed if I didn't know that from GH.  (until it shines up next week)  The red and lavender keys have the same shape and texture as far as I can tell... I'd guess they are PBT too, but no proof.

[Aznguyen316]

^ I also wondered if they were abs or pbt, the wasd more importantly.  But if it feels the same then I would guess PBT.. if it doesn't feel the same as the space bar.

[isp]

Thanks for posting impressions+vid.  Enjoy it man... but it really is hard to go to anything else after you use one of these for a while.

[jpm804]

Woot, FedEx brought me the goods today too!

(Attachment Link) 22703[/ATTACH]

Quick initial random impressions:

• LOVE the size. It'll be hard to go back to even a full-size tenkeyless.
• Left side rubber foot doesn't grip, just like another person said. The back-left foot is too high, or the back right to low. Shim or shave, your choice.
• First time to touch a topre switch.  LOVE IT… so unique.  I think my browns and blues will see less use.  (Filco w/ Reds coming next week… we'll see.)
• Love the feel/texture of the keycaps
• Overall a solid feel when typing.
• Might need to pour some lead in the casing… it's a featherweight.
• The layout is great, but the backspace location is going to take a good long while to get used to.  My right ring finger jumps straight to \ or ` when I mess up.  Funny, I was worried about the arrow keys, but they're natural.  The backspace is a freaking trip.

Nice write up on your initial comments and video.

• If you like the Topre Switches... is there a chance a Realforce board is in your future? Also love to get your feedback on the reds vs HHKB. I'm actually like the reds more than I expected.
• I also love the feel of the keycaps... would love to get some PBT keycaps for my filco to see if it feels similar.
• I kinda like it lightweight since it fits its form factor, defintely better built then my poker ( less flex and feels a little more solid)
• Its good to know that I'm not the only one who has an issue with the backspace placement...still getting use to it.

Also the red esc and lavender WASD looks good going to have to pick that up from EK also.

You're making me miss the HHKB I just sold. BTW, I have the same mouse.

Thanks again mmmty.. hopefully you wont miss it anymore when your TypeNow Solid comes in :smile:

[reaper]

Also the red esc and lavender WASD looks good going to have to pick that up from EK also.

Get the whole set of white key caps set from EK. =P

[jpm804]

Get the whole set of white key caps set from EK. =P

Quit teasing me reaper,,, damn that looks good. I wanted to get the white HHKB keycaps but I think they are sold out of the printed ones and only have the Otaku style ones. Hopefully my solution to this problem is not buying a white HHKB2 =P

Also nice baller roof rack for the HHKB... looks nice

[reaper]

^ Thanks and it seems like they're out of stock on those lettered ones but they still have blank key caps and the roof..  I think. =D

[jpm804]

^ Thanks and it seems like they're out of stock on those lettered ones but they still have blank key caps and the roof..  I think. =D

The roof is defintely on my wish list, I would rather get back in stock the filco roof back in stock.

Gonna ping them to see when and if they will get back in stock the white HHKB white printed keycaps.

[jpm804]

I feel your ping.

Don't worry I will be using my Filco to write the email

[aggiejy]

If you like the Topre Switches... is there a chance a Realforce board is in your future?

You know, I wasn't planning on it until yesterday.  But I like these switches way more than I thought I would.  I half-expected them to be mostly hype I guess.  But now, I'm thinking I may want to look into a Realforce 87.

After a full day of coding on this HHKB, I'm cool with the backspace placement now.  The control placement is second nature.  

My biggest problem is doing text selection with the arrow keys.  On a Mac, you hold down shift and move the arrow keys to select characters.  If you add command to the mix, it'll highlight the whole line.  Or option and it'll highlight a wood at a time.  Not much different here except also holding down Fn to use the arrows.  

I also kind of like having F keys standalone as I use F1-F4 to jump though my desktops.  Have it as control-1..4 now, so it's not bad.

Something I'm sure I'll get used to, but not on day one.  The other thing is that I noticed my natural mouse position is to the right enough that losing the arrow keys didn't really help much for me.  So perhaps I'll trade this for a Realforce at some point. (or just have both!)  We'll see.

Either way, totally enjoying typing on it.  Looking forward to the reds... but I have a feeling I'm going to want some dampening orings after using this for a bit.

[jpm804]

I would recommend maybe trying out a used RF86 if you want to try a topre keyboard with a tenkeyless layout. I think I saw one in the classifieds for $190 which is a pretty decent price. Probably give you a good idea if you want to move up to to RF 87U in the future. Also you can probably sell that RF86 for what you bought it for when you move up.

While having both I do like the form factor of the RF86 more for me at least.

Also i dont think dampining springs will be necessary on the reds... I like them the way they are stock.

[peapody]

Ping Elitekeyboards when they'll start selling colored Topre keys.  At $125 a set there is profit to be made.

I want to see some different colored caps. Like the lavendar, but would it if they had some choices. I'd shell out some cash for something different.

[theferenc]

You know, I have trouble with the ANSI backspace location. I was using sun keyboards for nearly a decade before I bought the HHKB, so the UNIX layout feels very natural to me. I even mod all of my IBM keyboards to that layout, applying about 10 remaps to get the whole thing working.

Just wait until you go back to ANSI after having used the HHKB for a while. You'll be getting lots of \\\\\\\\\\\\\.

[aggiejy]

I would recommend maybe trying out a used RF86 if you want to try a topre keyboard with a tenkeyless layout. I think I saw one in the classifieds for $190 which is a pretty decent price. Probably give you a good idea if you want to move up to to RF 87U in the future. Also you can probably sell that RF86 for what you bought it for when you move up.

While having both I do like the form factor of the RF86 more for me at least.

How would you compare the typing feel on the 86U vs the HHKB? I'm really tempted to trade/sell this to get one of those. I don't game, so the variable weighting wouldn't seem to bother me much, and I don't need that extra windows key... so no point in the 87 probably.

I might buy one and keep this too, but I almost don't want to get too used to this layout... I might neglect the rest of my collection.  Though, I paid $300 for this less than a week ago... kind of feel bad selling it already.

[jpm804]

How would you compare the typing feel on the 86U vs the HHKB? I'm really tempted to trade/sell this to get one of those. I don't game, so the variable weighting wouldn't seem to bother me much, and I don't need that extra windows key... so no point in the 87 probably.

I might buy one and keep this too, but I almost don't want to get too used to this layout... I might neglect the rest of my collection.  Though, I paid $300 for this less than a week ago... kind of feel bad selling it already.

It sounds like you like the topre keys so I would just keep the HHKB since you just got it.

I dont think I have had enough time with the RF86 to form a complete judgement yet but for now it is the keyboard I enjoy typing on the most with the filco reds coming in second.

The RF just feels a little bit smoother and I think I attribute that to the variable keys that it has but also it just might just be in my head...hehehe

Right now I just want to try out as many different switches that I can and start forming my own opinions on them and then probably thin out the collection and just keep the ones I want.

Right now trying to rotate through my collection as much as i can. I like it since it gives me different optiosn which is nice.

[Index]

After about 5 days of use. I love this keyboard. However, as of right now, only for work. For gaming, the Cherry Browns are far superior for me.

The only 2 things I don't like about the HHKB is the logo and the flexing of the case. In order to fix that, I plan on ordering a custom CNC milled aluminum case to replace the current plastic case (my bank account is really going to hire someone to assassinate me). I estimate that it's going to take about 1-3 months to design the case due to no previous experience with designing models for CNC and other life commitments.