Author Topic: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.  (Read 936176 times)

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Offline TotalChaos

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1100 on: Fri, 11 January 2013, 17:46:31 »
Will this keyboard work with a PS/2 adapter?

The USB code is from PJRC for now, and conforms to the keyboard USB Boot Spec - i.e. the computer sees it as a regular, normal USB keyboard.  Real PS/2 adaptors should work, as far as I know.
Do u have any proof that these "real PS/2 adaptors" actually exist and where could I buy one?

Ppl keep talking about them but its like the Loch Ness Monster, everyone "knows" they exist but there is no proof.

I have already wasted many hours looking and I found lots and lots and lots of cheap adaptors to adapt a PS/2 keyboard to work on USB.  They are really cheap.  But trying to adapt a USB keyboard that is hostile to PS/2 seems like it is impossible. I am not saying it is electrically impossible, just saying that AFAICT nobody sells such adaptors.  Either they never existed or they sold out long ago.


Quote
  Passthrough adaptors (what the cheap ones usually are) almost certainly won't.  I haven't tested either.
I was already told they won't work.

When the teensy controller gets upgraded to work on both USB and PS/2 like the controller in WASD, Rosewill, Filco, etc. etc. ad nauseum then I will happily buy 3 Ergodox and pay someone to put them together for me.

I might buy a 4th one to give to one of my friends who have hand pain.

Thanx  :)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1101 on: Fri, 11 January 2013, 17:56:30 »
I looked at a pic of the Ergodox and saw no FN key.  Where is the FN key?

How does one generate the keycodes of the Function keys?

Can all other ANSI standard keycodes (the standard keys available since at least 1985 or before) be generated?

Or is this keyboard like the new Matias, CoolerMaster, etc. etc. etc. (lots of companies have been banishing keys) keyboards where certain standard keycodes are impossible to generate?
Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline Glod

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1102 on: Fri, 11 January 2013, 18:08:09 »
I looked at a pic of the Ergodox and saw no FN key.  Where is the FN key?

How does one generate the keycodes of the Function keys?

Can all other ANSI standard keycodes (the standard keys available since at least 1985 or before) be generated?

Or is this keyboard like the new Matias, CoolerMaster, etc. etc. etc. (lots of companies have been banishing keys) keyboards where certain standard keycodes are impossible to generate?



Is the layout massdrop gives instructions to use for qwerty

It only appears to show the first layer however visually

correct me if im wrong guys but it is BASED ON but doesnt 100% mirror the kinesis layout



Remember that you are not limited to the layout in the default

github has a ergodox area

https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware

if you dive deeper this may answer your question

https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout/qwerty-kinesis-mod.c

see layer 1, the picture i gave above is layer 0

edit: i should mention that modifying the layout and creating new firmware is not exactly drag and drop, however if you have any trouble the geek hack community is here to help :D
« Last Edit: Fri, 11 January 2013, 18:09:52 by Glod »

Offline ic07

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1103 on: Fri, 11 January 2013, 18:57:30 »
Thanks Glod :) .  Ya, it's based on the Kinesis layout, but I did change a few things.  The function layer is based on that of the Arensito layout (though, I failed to mention that in the current version of the source).  Here's a prettier picture of all the layers, just for reference.  Similar things for all the currently compiled layouts can be found in the .zip files for the binaries (follow the link in the readme, here).

* firmware--layout.html (378.97 kB - downloaded 176 times.)

@TC:
Lol, nope, no proof... and a quick search didn't turn up anything either, sorry :/ .  I have no idea what the other keyboards you mention are using to make themselves work on both USB and PS/2, so I dunno what to tell you about that.  Guess I can't be much help :/ .

Offline Glod

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1104 on: Fri, 11 January 2013, 19:15:16 »
Thanks Glod :) .  Ya, it's based on the Kinesis layout, but I did change a few things.  The function layer is based on that of the Arensito layout (though, I failed to mention that in the current version of the source).  Here's a prettier picture of all the layers, just for reference.  Similar things for all the currently compiled layouts can be found in the .zip files for the binaries (follow the link in the readme, here).

(Attachment Link)

@TC:
Lol, nope, no proof... and a quick search didn't turn up anything either, sorry :/ .  I have no idea what the other keyboards you mention are using to make themselves work on both USB and PS/2, so I dunno what to tell you about that.  Guess I can't be much help :/ .

oh wow that file rocks, why could i not find this anywhere lol


Offline sordna

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1105 on: Fri, 11 January 2013, 20:36:29 »

Do u have any proof that these "real PS/2 adaptors" actually exist and where could I buy one?


How about the famous blue cube adaptor? Works great with both my Model M and Kinesis Classic.

Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1106 on: Fri, 11 January 2013, 20:46:30 »
Ok so to press a function key on ErgoDox I must:
1. Press a key to change the layer.
2. Press whichever Function key I want.
3. Press a key to the layer back.

Correct?



Basically it appears the ErgoDox is like a flat Kinesis Advantage with the function keys chopped off and the PS/2 connectivity removed.

I never understood why the Kinesis Advantage forces ppl to use that  keywell design.  It is great for ppl who want that.  And the price is totally reasonable.  But I have never craved, desired or wanted my keys in a keywell.  I also absolutely do not want my wrist resting on that high point of the Kinesis Advantage keyboard.  I would have certainly already bought a Kinesis Advantage if it was available in a flat version.

Does ergodox have footpedal support?

When I designed my ultimate dream keyboard in 2003 I put the shift keys down in the thumb area of Ergodox.  And I left them in the original positions too.  This greatly eases the transition of learning to use thumbs to shift.  The trouble is that if I do that I lose 2 other extremely valuable keys.

In my design there were at least 12 keys in the middle of keyboard which could be assigned as whatever instead of the 6 of ergodox.   For example Enter and Backspace could go into the middle area, leaving 2 keys available in thumb area for 2 shift keys.  Just an example.  I am not saying that ergodox positioning of enter or backspace are bad at all.  I am just saying that an Ergonomic keyboard needs some flexibility to it so that ppl like me who crave thumb-shifting can be 100% satisfied.

For ppl who develop hand pain it is a common complaint that the pinky fingers get overused.   Having to shift with my pinky fingers all the time hurts me.  That is why I want to have the option of shifting with my thumbs.

Sadly there are no "spare" keys on the keyboard to allow easy ergonomical reassignment of keys.  Even though there is a lot of room for extra keys in the middle.

Is there some simple solution I have overlooked that would allow me to have 4 shift keys?  The original 2 + 2 for the thumbs?  Without destroying the layout in some other way?

Keeping in mind that shifting and spacebar must be dead ez to actuate in all circumstances.
Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1107 on: Fri, 11 January 2013, 20:59:05 »

Do u have any proof that these "real PS/2 adaptors" actually exist and where could I buy one?


How about the famous blue cube adaptor? Works great with both my Model M and Kinesis Classic.

Show Image


You are saying exactly what I have been saying over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again for 10 years.

You can easily connect a PS/2 keyboard to ANY computer using a simple cheap adapter.

But you cannot connect a USB-only keyboard like Ergodox to a PS/2 computer.

So if you are only going to support one standard in your keyboard controller it only makes sense to support PS/2.  Because as you showed, your blue cube adapter will allow it to connect to a computer that has its PS/2 ports amputated.

Of course, supporting both adds zero to the manufacturing costs so there is no reason not to support both.  You downloaded your free opensource USB controller software and you can download some free opensource PS/2 controller software too.

Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline sordna

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1108 on: Fri, 11 January 2013, 21:39:21 »
We need the option to have an FN key be momentary (as opposed to toggle), or have 2 FN keys, one momentary, the other act like a toggle.

Regarding extra shift keys, I'm in the same boat. I have 4 shift keys in my Kinesis Advantage. I plan to get the ErgoDox with the full hand case, so I can install a pair of palm keys for shift. I think it has some extra positions in the matrix, if not, I will just piggyback wires off the existing shift keys, I've done it before.

Note the arcade buttons in the palm area of my keyboard acting as shifts... I've added 8 keys total, but the palm keys get the most use:



I plan to add the same kind of arcade buttons (Seimitsu PS-15) on this type of case:

« Last Edit: Fri, 11 January 2013, 21:44:32 by sordna »
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline ic07

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1109 on: Fri, 11 January 2013, 22:07:39 »
@TC:

There are both layer shift and layer lock keys on the default QWERTY layout.  And if you don't like where something is, you can always reassign it anywhere you like.  Please read the documentation, it took a long time to write.

As far as footpedals go, they're entirely possible - but they'd be DIY.

As for PS/2 support:  The USB portion of the code is from PJRC.  I haven't had time to rewrite it myself (though, I think the original author did a pretty good job).  I know of one or two other libraries I could have used, but they looked harder to work with, and none of them supported PS/2.  The rest of the code I wrote myself, in my free time, for free (and fun :) ).  Please don't ever tell a developer that (to paraphrase) they downloaded their free open source code, and they really should go downloaded a different one.  It's quite a bit insulting.

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1110 on: Fri, 11 January 2013, 22:48:22 »
@TC:

There are both layer shift and layer lock keys on the default QWERTY layout.
Ok good to know :)


Quote
As for PS/2 support:  The USB portion of the code is from PJRC.  I haven't had time to rewrite it myself (though, I think the original author did a pretty good job).  I know of one or two other libraries I could have used, but they looked harder to work with, and none of them supported PS/2.  The rest of the code I wrote myself, in my free time, for free (and fun :) ).  Please don't ever tell a developer that (to paraphrase) they downloaded their free open source code, and they really should go downloaded a different one.  It's quite a bit insulting.
I apologize if I did not word things well.  I'm dying.  I'm on hardcore drugz. I am wiped out tired.  My POS Rosewill keyboard keeps flashing lights at me and doing freaky things (like eating my keys or making the alt key get stuck even though I never pressed the Alt key in the first place, etc.)  Its hard for me to concentrate tbh.  I am really sorry.  I didn't mean to be insulting.  :-[

I didn't mean u should replace the code you have.  Your code obviously works so no need to change it AFAICT.  I just meant that there surely must be free PS/2 controller code floating around somewhere that could be added in, in addition to the USB code, given that PS/2 has been around for 30 years (or however long, I think PS/2 is actually just a shrunken DIN5 which has been around way longer than 30 years).

I have a vague memory that I saw a PS/2 controller somewhere... it was probably on opencores.org

I will offer you a $200.00 bribe  :)  but u can call it a bounty :) to add PS/2 support to the controller.   I am sorry that I cannot offer more but I don't have an ergodox, and there is no guarantee that I will ever get one, or that   it will really and truly allow me to begin coding again.  Also if I get an Ergodox it might cost a really HUGE amount of money to pay someone to put it together for me.  Nobody has actually offered to put it together for me at any price.  I absolutely cannot ever build one myself.  I can barely sit in a chair and shove the mouse around.  No way I can do anything more complicated than that.  But I can send $$$ with AmazonPay.
Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline rknize

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1111 on: Fri, 11 January 2013, 23:55:57 »
Browns are not on offer due to availability, no more than that.

ah ok

If you are looking for a source for PCB-mount MX Browns, The_Ed is selling switches that were harvested from brand-new Cherry boards:

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-ds-capslock-bottom-rows-switches-relegendables-t3093.html

Also, 7bit has a date of 01/2013 for the same:

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html
Russ

Offline wasabah

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1112 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 00:06:27 »
Also, 7bit has a date of 01/2013 for the same:

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html
If I would want to order these for the Ergodox (complementing the Massdrop group buy), which would I need?
PCB mount I guess? How many? 84?
ErgoDox Classic | Logitech G400 | Logitech Marble | Logitech M570 | Logitech M235 | Logitech M305

Offline rknize

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1113 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 00:19:31 »
Yes you want to order:

MXBROWN/NW 84

Maybe a couple of extras.  He recently switched his pricing to EUR instead of USD, so keep that in mind.  The_Ed is selling his for 50 cents each plus shipping and Paypal fees.  I've bought a bunch from him already for DIY pokers and the like.  They do appear to be new, save for being desoldered.
Russ

Offline sordna

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1114 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 00:24:46 »
Either PCB mount or plate mount would work, the ergodox PCB can accommodate both kinds (which is awesome). PCB mount might be better IMO, since they have a pair of strong plastic pins which go into additional holes of the PCB, making the construction sturdier.
However PCB-mount switches usually cost a bit more.
I think the keyboard has 76 keys, so 80 should be enough to cover any accidents, although I notice the massdrop assembly instructions mention they provide 88.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline wasabah

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1115 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 01:53:41 »
Thanks for the fast answer guys! :)
I think then I will order soon and order one more keyboard without switches. Cool! :)
ErgoDox Classic | Logitech G400 | Logitech Marble | Logitech M570 | Logitech M235 | Logitech M305

Offline seferphier

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1116 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 02:27:32 »
can't we just buy a few extra pcbs and construct another Ergo Dox ourselves?

Offline ic07

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1117 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 03:04:31 »
I apologize if I did not word things well.  I'm dying.  I'm on hardcore drugz. I am wiped out tired.  My POS Rosewill keyboard keeps flashing lights at me and doing freaky things (like eating my keys or making the alt key get stuck even though I never pressed the Alt key in the first place, etc.)  Its hard for me to concentrate tbh.  I am really sorry.  I didn't mean to be insulting.  :-[

Thanks...  I'm sorry too.  I guess I'm a bit touchy at the moment, probably because of some of the more heated discussions that happened over on DT a little bit ago.  I should have been more patient :/

Quote
I didn't mean u should replace the code you have.  Your code obviously works so no need to change it AFAICT.  I just meant that there surely must be free PS/2 controller code floating around somewhere that could be added in, in addition to the USB code, given that PS/2 has been around for 30 years (or however long, I think PS/2 is actually just a shrunken DIN5 which has been around way longer than 30 years).

I have a vague memory that I saw a PS/2 controller somewhere... it was probably on opencores.org

I will offer you a $200.00 bribe  :)  but u can call it a bounty :) to add PS/2 support to the controller.   I am sorry that I cannot offer more but I don't have an ergodox, and there is no guarantee that I will ever get one, or that   it will really and truly allow me to begin coding again.  Also if I get an Ergodox it might cost a really HUGE amount of money to pay someone to put it together for me.  Nobody has actually offered to put it together for me at any price.  I absolutely cannot ever build one myself.  I can barely sit in a chair and shove the mouse around.  No way I can do anything more complicated than that.  But I can send $$$ with AmazonPay.

Your bribe (*cough* bounty, lol) is very generous :) .  And if it really means that much to you, I'd be very tempted to do it for free, if I could.  Unfortunately, my main problem is that I don't have *time* :/ or enough domain knowledge to do it quickly.  This weekend I have work, the next two weeks I'm visiting my grandparents (who I can't very well neglect, lol), and for most of the next few months after that I'll be back in school...  And as I've never dealt with PS/2 before (or USB, for that matter, which is why I'm still using a library), or many of the Teensy functions a PS/2 library would be using (interrupts and timers come to mind), I don't think my chances of success in any reasonable amount of time would be good.  In fact, I had an experience not that long ago trying to integrate code I didn't have time to understand when I tried to get mousekeys into the firmware.  There's a nice library for making the Teensy emulate a mouse, and lots of other people have done it - but I couldn't figure it out at the time, and I still haven't had time to go back and make it work.  So, I'm sorry... but I'm sure you can understand.

That being said, if anyone else wants to try, my code is up on github (though the unstable branch is in the middle of somewhat of a rewrite), and I'll do my best to help you out where I can.  I also found this project, which might be worth checking out.  More searching might turn up something better.

In the meantime, I was able to find an active USB -> PS/2 converter :) .  It's crazy expensive, and it only has one (very bad...) review... but lol, at least it's proof they exist :) .

As for people willing to do assembly, here's a portion of Dorkvader's mass PM, which was sent out just recently:

Quote
For those interested in a fully assembled product, below are a list of people on GH willing to help. PM and coordinate with them for a quote.

TheProfosist (USA)
DorkVader (USA)
Geekabit (EU)
Dirge (UK)
localredhead (?)

Hope that helps!

Offline TotalChaos

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1118 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 03:50:07 »
I apologize if I did not word things well.  I'm dying.  I'm on hardcore drugz. I am wiped out tired.  My POS Rosewill keyboard keeps flashing lights at me and doing freaky things (like eating my keys or making the alt key get stuck even though I never pressed the Alt key in the first place, etc.)  Its hard for me to concentrate tbh.  I am really sorry.  I didn't mean to be insulting.  :-[

Thanks...  I'm sorry too.  I guess I'm a bit touchy at the moment, probably because of some of the more heated discussions that happened over on DT a little bit ago.  I should have been more patient :/

Quote
I didn't mean u should replace the code you have.  Your code obviously works so no need to change it AFAICT.  I just meant that there surely must be free PS/2 controller code floating around somewhere that could be added in, in addition to the USB code, given that PS/2 has been around for 30 years (or however long, I think PS/2 is actually just a shrunken DIN5 which has been around way longer than 30 years).

I have a vague memory that I saw a PS/2 controller somewhere... it was probably on opencores.org

I will offer you a $200.00 bribe  :)  but u can call it a bounty :) to add PS/2 support to the controller.   I am sorry that I cannot offer more but I don't have an ergodox, and there is no guarantee that I will ever get one, or that   it will really and truly allow me to begin coding again.  Also if I get an Ergodox it might cost a really HUGE amount of money to pay someone to put it together for me.  Nobody has actually offered to put it together for me at any price.  I absolutely cannot ever build one myself.  I can barely sit in a chair and shove the mouse around.  No way I can do anything more complicated than that.  But I can send $$$ with AmazonPay.

Your bribe (*cough* bounty, lol) is very generous :) .  And if it really means that much to you, I'd be very tempted to do it for free, if I could.
It does mean a lot to me and it means a lot to various other ppl out there who are reading this msg but are like I was, they are in READONLY mode and are unable to type due to their hands being trashed. 

The bountybribe offer is good for 1 year.  After that we'll see.  You can ask.  If I can finish my current keyboard building project and my drugz keep working and my doctor doesn't quit and I don't die or have yet another pain attack then I might disappear into my codercave and never be seen on geekhack again.

Quote
Unfortunately, my main problem is that I don't have *time* :/ or enough domain knowledge to do it quickly.  This weekend I have work, the next two weeks I'm visiting my grandparents (who I can't very well neglect, lol), and for most of the next few months after that I'll be back in school...  And as I've never dealt with PS/2 before (or USB, for that matter, which is why I'm still using a library), or many of the Teensy functions a PS/2 library would be using (interrupts and timers come to mind), I don't think my chances of success in any reasonable amount of time would be good.
I was not expecting any progress for at least 3 months.  Long after the group buy is over.  That is why I was saying it may never benefit me in any way.


Quote
  In fact, I had an experience not that long ago trying to integrate code I didn't have time to understand when I tried to get mousekeys into the firmware.  There's a nice library for making the Teensy emulate a mouse, and lots of other people have done it - but I couldn't figure it out at the time, and I still haven't had time to go back and make it work.  So, I'm sorry... but I'm sure you can understand.
Coding alien systems is a batch.  And I don't mean it like a file of script commands  :))

Anywayz no pressure.  If u feel like tackling it u will and if not then I just saved myself $200.00 which is enough for me to get that new Front-printed Filco I have been eyeing :)

Quote
In the meantime, I was able to find an active USB -> PS/2 converter :) .  It's crazy expensive, and it only has one (very bad...) review... but lol, at least it's proof they exist :) .
If it doesn't even work then it doesn't exist. :)

I like how it says my brand new Intel core i5 is a legacy system  :))

I don't really know how the USB protocol messages work but reading some msgs from guys who do know, they said it would be really complicated to make a working active adapter like that.  It is really just better to buy a keyboard that is compatible with USB and PS/2, like Filco, WASD, CoolerMaster, Rosewill, etc.


Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline sordna

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1119 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 10:47:08 »
@TC If you have an i5 I bet the computer has USB ports. Why don't you simply use a USB port to connect the ErgoDox?
Why is PS/2 sooooo important that you won't even use a great ergonomic keyboard to help your health issues if it doesn't support it?  Please educate us here.
« Last Edit: Sat, 12 January 2013, 10:57:07 by sordna »
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline jabar

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1120 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 12:11:15 »
a great ergonomic keyboard to help your health issues
this remains to be seen
Leopold FC660C - Max Keyboard Nighthawk X8 - Ducky DK9008 Shine II 78 Edition - Noppoo Choc Mini - Cherry G80-2100HDD - Cherry G80-8113HDPUS - Plu-M87 - Leopold FC700R Ergo Clears - Deck Legend Frost 105 - IBM F PC Keyboard - IBM M 122 (Lexmark) - Apple Extended Keyboard II

Phantom 7bit

Offline rknize

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1121 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 12:45:44 »
Either PCB mount or plate mount would work, the ergodox PCB can accommodate both kinds (which is awesome). PCB mount might be better IMO, since they have a pair of strong plastic pins which go into additional holes of the PCB, making the construction sturdier.
However PCB-mount switches usually cost a bit more.
I think the keyboard has 76 keys, so 80 should be enough to cover any accidents, although I notice the massdrop assembly instructions mention they provide 88.

More than anything else, the pins give the switch the proper orientation.  One thing I noticed with the Phantom plate was that the switches could rotate slightly, especially the keys that had multiple positions (mods, space, etc).  This is a problem for stabilized keys, especially space, which can't afford any rotation at all.
Russ

Offline oneproduct

  • Posts: 858
  • Location: Montreal, Canada
  • @Ubisoft
Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1122 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 13:26:08 »
Anybody else having problems with paypal checkout on massdrop? I get a few different errors, but the main one seems to be "total not set" and it prints the array that's passed by the order page on screen and you can in fact see that the total is 0.
Layout: Colemak
Fastest typing speed: 131 WPM on typeracer, 136 WPM on 10fastfingers.
Daily driver: Filco Tenkeyless MX Brown with ergonomically weighted, lubed springs.
Ergo keyboards: Truly Ergonomic, Kinesis Advantage, Ergodox

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2247
Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1123 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 13:43:30 »
What other payment methods do they have available?
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline oneproduct

  • Posts: 858
  • Location: Montreal, Canada
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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1124 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 15:08:40 »
They have credit card as well. At the moment I've got money in my paypal though so was hoping to be able to use that.
Layout: Colemak
Fastest typing speed: 131 WPM on typeracer, 136 WPM on 10fastfingers.
Daily driver: Filco Tenkeyless MX Brown with ergonomically weighted, lubed springs.
Ergo keyboards: Truly Ergonomic, Kinesis Advantage, Ergodox

Offline haskellelephant

  • Posts: 35
  • Location: Norway
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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1125 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 15:40:16 »
There, my order is in. It seems that you have to choose "N/A" on the extra pcb option since two pcb boards are already included in the price.

Offline Glod

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1126 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 16:22:53 »
Man, 34 orders plus 12 committed to 199 aint bad for having more than 15 days left, I'm getting it no matter what so i'm pulling out the popcorn and watching this progress until the group buy date closes :)

i had no problems with paypal btw.. they just send a notice that the processing is pending with massdrop and wont be billed until that is over.

Offline esoomenona

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1127 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 16:28:03 »
If it gets down to $199 and I can spare the money, I will go in. I'm monitoring it until then.


Offline ironman31

  • Posts: 834
Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1128 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 16:30:34 »
You can always commit to buying it only if it goes down to 199
Keyboards:
IBM Model M Space Saving Keyboard (Used), HHKB Pro 2 (White, Lettered), Realforce 87U all-45g in White, Filco Majestouch 2 TKL with Cherry MX Browns, Model F PC/ATNoppoo Choc Mini (MX Browns), Model F XT, IBM Model M 1397735 (bought NIB), (2) Siig Minitouch (GHSS) one with XM, one with complicated ALPs (modded),2 Dell AT101W, Cherry G80-11900HRMUS (modded with MX browns)



Pointing Devices:
Logitech G500, Evoluent VerticalMouse 3, Logitech G5, CST 2545W, Microsoft IntelliMouse Trackball, Logitech M570, Logitech MX revolution


Offline oneproduct

  • Posts: 858
  • Location: Montreal, Canada
  • @Ubisoft
Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1129 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 16:48:32 »
This is what I keep getting :(

https://www.massdrop.com/php/APIError.php

PayPal API Error

The PayPal API has returned an error!
TIMESTAMP:   2013-01-12T22:47:45Z
ACK:   Failure
VERSION:   65.1
BUILD:   4181146
L_ERRORCODE0:   10400
L_SHORTMESSAGE0:   Transaction refused because of an invalid argument. See additional error messages for details.
L_LONGMESSAGE0:   Order total is missing.
L_SEVERITYCODE0:   Error
Layout: Colemak
Fastest typing speed: 131 WPM on typeracer, 136 WPM on 10fastfingers.
Daily driver: Filco Tenkeyless MX Brown with ergonomically weighted, lubed springs.
Ergo keyboards: Truly Ergonomic, Kinesis Advantage, Ergodox

Offline Halverson

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1130 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 16:55:56 »
^ Have you tried both buy and commit to buy?

Offline oneproduct

  • Posts: 858
  • Location: Montreal, Canada
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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1131 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 16:58:03 »
Yup, I get the same either way.
Layout: Colemak
Fastest typing speed: 131 WPM on typeracer, 136 WPM on 10fastfingers.
Daily driver: Filco Tenkeyless MX Brown with ergonomically weighted, lubed springs.
Ergo keyboards: Truly Ergonomic, Kinesis Advantage, Ergodox

Offline Halverson

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1132 on: Sat, 12 January 2013, 17:00:33 »
Yup, I get the same either way.

So strange, very strange. Maybe try changing your order, which you can always change back after? Order a full set, then remove switches after. Or something of that sort with different options.

Offline SubGothius

  • Posts: 79
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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1133 on: Sun, 13 January 2013, 02:44:21 »
More than anything else, the pins give the switch the proper orientation.  One thing I noticed with the Phantom plate was that the switches could rotate slightly, especially the keys that had multiple positions (mods, space, etc).  This is a problem for stabilized keys, especially space, which can't afford any rotation at all.

ErgoDox doesn't use any stabliizers, and the assembly instructions have you mount the keyswitches in the plate before soldering them in place, so they should be locked into proper position when soldered. That said, if you still prefer PCB-pegged keyswitches, you can join the GB sans switches and source your own switches in some other GB or elsewhere.
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut

Offline SubGothius

  • Posts: 79
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    • HTDoctor.com
Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1134 on: Sun, 13 January 2013, 02:49:44 »
This is what I keep getting :(

https://www.massdrop.com/php/APIError.php

PayPal API Error

The PayPal API has returned an error!
TIMESTAMP:   2013-01-12T22:47:45Z
ACK:   Failure
VERSION:   65.1
BUILD:   4181146
L_ERRORCODE0:   10400
L_SHORTMESSAGE0:   Transaction refused because of an invalid argument. See additional error messages for details.
L_LONGMESSAGE0:   Order total is missing.
L_SEVERITYCODE0:   Error

Try clearing your cookies, or at least delete cookies for massdrop.com and paypal.com. Also make sure your browser settings aren't blocking third-party cookies; not sure if that's even relevant, but it's something to try.
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is." -Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut

Offline asura

  • Posts: 262
  • Location: Scotland
  • not a duck
Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1135 on: Sun, 13 January 2013, 04:08:21 »
Want the PCB only?

"The best way to do this is to have you check out normally and notify one of our live chat reps so they can put a note on the transaction saying to only collect payment for the PCB ($44 shipped to your door).

Let me know what works best for you,

- Will"

They really are bending over backwards.  I'm sure everyone probably checking both posts, but just in case I'll pop it up in the other one too.

Offline oneproduct

  • Posts: 858
  • Location: Montreal, Canada
  • @Ubisoft
Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1136 on: Sun, 13 January 2013, 10:02:12 »
Okay, I think I managed to get in the group buy. I got the paypal confirmation email in any case. Is it suppose to show up in my purchase history, or is that only once the group buy actually completes?

Just curious about whether it should be listed there as people mentioned being able to change your order (i.e. switch type or such) up until the group buy completes, but not sure where that would be done without something in my purchase history to be able to fiddle with.
Layout: Colemak
Fastest typing speed: 131 WPM on typeracer, 136 WPM on 10fastfingers.
Daily driver: Filco Tenkeyless MX Brown with ergonomically weighted, lubed springs.
Ergo keyboards: Truly Ergonomic, Kinesis Advantage, Ergodox

Offline hoggy

  • * Ergonomics Moderator
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  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1137 on: Sun, 13 January 2013, 10:04:10 »
a great ergonomic keyboard to help your health issues
this remains to be seen
True, but I find it hard to believe that it won't help.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline haskellelephant

  • Posts: 35
  • Location: Norway
  • haskell is everywhere! What are we going to do?
Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1138 on: Sun, 13 January 2013, 11:47:22 »
Now that the keyboard is soon in hand, it's time to start looking for a wrist rest for split keyboard. I was think about getting
some soft wrist rest for it. I am kinda hoping it would be possible to get something that would put the weight on the palms
rather than the wrists like with the truly ergonomic keyboard and the kinesis advantage. Maybe two mouse wrist rests will do
the trick? Ideas anyone?

Offline sordna

  • Posts: 2247
Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1139 on: Sun, 13 January 2013, 11:49:44 »
Folks, the debate here is about PS/2. Even if PS/2 is better in some technical aspects, the reality is that it makes no real difference to the user (unless you have 10+ year old computer). So if one has to choose between 2 similar keyboards, one with PS/2 capability is preferable, but with unique keyboards like the ErgoDox it's really not worth to worry about it.
I was hoping TC would explain why lack of PS/2 is a total deal breaker for him.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline litster

  • Posts: 2883
  • rare caps?! THAT'S A SMILIN
Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1140 on: Sun, 13 January 2013, 12:05:22 »
Now that the keyboard is soon in hand, it's time to start looking for a wrist rest for split keyboard. I was think about getting
some soft wrist rest for it. I am kinda hoping it would be possible to get something that would put the weight on the palms
rather than the wrists like with the truly ergonomic keyboard and the kinesis advantage. Maybe two mouse wrist rests will do
the trick? Ideas anyone?

Is my wrist rest case design not available from massdrop?

Offline BugBuster

  • Posts: 18
  • Location: Estonia
    • LinkedIn Profile
Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1141 on: Sun, 13 January 2013, 12:12:04 »
Now that the keyboard is soon in hand, it's time to start looking for a wrist rest for split keyboard. I was think about getting
some soft wrist rest for it. I am kinda hoping it would be possible to get something that would put the weight on the palms
rather than the wrists like with the truly ergonomic keyboard and the kinesis advantage. Maybe two mouse wrist rests will do
the trick? Ideas anyone?

I'm thinking about a pair of http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3M-Gel-Mouse-Trackball-Wrist-Rest-Black-Leatherette-/370723084235?pt=US_Mouse_Pads_Wrist_Rests&hash=item5650d157cb

Or one big http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3M-WR314LE-KEYBOARD-WRIST-REST-ERGO-SPLIT-GEL-BLACK-LEATHERETTE-THIN-/300595068203?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fcdcbd2b
« Last Edit: Sun, 13 January 2013, 12:14:21 by BugBuster »

Offline regack

  • Posts: 660
  • Location: Thessia
Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1142 on: Sun, 13 January 2013, 12:14:26 »
Now that the keyboard is soon in hand, it's time to start looking for a wrist rest for split keyboard. I was think about getting
some soft wrist rest for it. I am kinda hoping it would be possible to get something that would put the weight on the palms
rather than the wrists like with the truly ergonomic keyboard and the kinesis advantage. Maybe two mouse wrist rests will do
the trick? Ideas anyone?

Is my wrist rest case design not available from massdrop?

As far as I know it is.  This is your design, yes?:

Offline haskellelephant

  • Posts: 35
  • Location: Norway
  • haskell is everywhere! What are we going to do?
Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1143 on: Sun, 13 January 2013, 12:27:50 »
Now that the keyboard is soon in hand, it's time to start looking for a wrist rest for split keyboard. I was think about getting
some soft wrist rest for it. I am kinda hoping it would be possible to get something that would put the weight on the palms
rather than the wrists like with the truly ergonomic keyboard and the kinesis advantage. Maybe two mouse wrist rests will do
the trick? Ideas anyone?

Is my wrist rest case design not available from massdrop?

It is available, but I wanted something soft. I guess I could just add one of these: http://www.amazon.com/GRIFITI-Notebook-Silicone-Reposition-Travelling/dp/B00897D3OQ/ref=pd_sbs_pc_1
to it, but I think that a separate palm rest would be better for me.

Offline litster

  • Posts: 2883
  • rare caps?! THAT'S A SMILIN
Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1144 on: Sun, 13 January 2013, 13:07:56 »

As far as I know it is.  This is your design, yes?:
Show Image


Yes.


Offline bisl

  • Posts: 212
Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1145 on: Sun, 13 January 2013, 13:08:48 »
It is available, but I wanted something soft. I guess I could just add one of these: http://www.amazon.com/GRIFITI-Notebook-Silicone-Reposition-Travelling/dp/B00897D3OQ/ref=pd_sbs_pc_1
to it, but I think that a separate palm rest would be better for me.

You know, I was originally against the wrist rest case design for exactly this reason--the balls of my wrists ("pisiform," I believe) get really sore when typing on a hard surface. So when seeing litster's wrist rest case design, I thought "Not for me! I need a soft rest."

However!

The more I think about it, the more I love that design because you can put a soft rest ON it, which does two things:
1) It provides extra height, which begins to approximate the Kinesis Advantage's keywell design.
2) Since the soft rest will sit on the case itself, this will help keep them positioned at a uniform distance from one another, in comparison to my current filco/kensington setup, which I constantly fiddle with.

That said, I'm getting both designs, so we'll see how it turns out :D

Offline TotalChaos

  • Posts: 733
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Indy Game Coder
Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1146 on: Sun, 13 January 2013, 13:25:29 »
a great ergonomic keyboard to help your health issues
this remains to be seen
True, but I find it hard to believe that it won't help.
The Ergodox is not my idea of my dream keyboard.  It simply appears to be less crazy than a Kinesis Advantage and it seems like it is made by ppl who are actually trying to solve a problem.  Since they seem like they are trying I am willing to go ahead and spend the bucks to buy it and pay someone to put it together for me if someone will fix the USB/PS/2 issue.

Just because I am willing to take a risk on something does not mean it is perfect for me.  It just means I am open minded and willing to give it a try and willing to help the project out.

> How could it possibly not help you?

1. The thumb buttons are built into the hand buttons.  I never asked for that and don't exactly want it due to this makes the keyboard as a whole take up a huge amount of deskspace.  This means the keyboard either: A) Won't work for me.  B) Will work for me but it will always be hanging off the edge of my lapmat or the edge of my rollerdesk and eventually will fall off and break.

> Why can't you just be like me and keep your keyboard on a normal GDMF Desk?!

Because I don't live a life of luxury and decadent pleasure like you.  I am dying of pain.  I can't use a keyboard PERIOD unless a huge number of strict rules are followed.  Rule #13 The keyboard shall not be any higher than neccessary or extreme arm pain shall cause paralysis or death.

Maybe there is some luxurious larger desk than this little thing I am using, that would have infinitely adjustable height like this... but I don't have it and I don't know how much such a thing costs or where to get it.  I just recently gained the ability to do online shopping so there are probably an infinite number of little thingamajigs that u know about that I don't.

Ok so even if I had the most perfect desk in the universe it still doesn't mean an ergodox will work for me because it just looks like the Ergodox intrudes greatly into my mouse space.

> Oh dear God, he's going to quote another rule...

Yes I am :)

Under: Attempting to use a computer
Rule #1. Don't
Rule #2. If you break Rule#1 then you MUST keep the mouse right in front of you.  None of this nonsense keeping the mouse way up on a tall desk out beyond your numeric keypad. 

I have to be hyper ergonomic at all times to even use my computer a little bit.  If I had not come up with all these strict rules of Ergomania then I would not be here on GeekHack.   I wouldn't be alive or I would still be in READONLY mode like I was for years just watching the world go by like a Dolphin, unable to use my hands.

So yes, Ergodox allegedly lets me shift with my thumbs.  That is kewl.  And it is flat unlike Kinesis Advantage.  That is great.  But it consumes large amounts of deskspace.  It uses a grid layout.  I never asked for that and never thought I would like it.  Normal layout is ok for me.

Ergodox also uses a split layout with a really huge split.  The only split keyboard I ever used before hurt me a lot but that is because it was some crappy fake "ergo" rubberdome keyboard with typical way overstiff rubberdomes that required a wildly painful impact in order to register a keypress.  I am just hoping that my pain will be ok with the split and the grid of the ergodox.

I know I can handle a small split.  But the Ergodox split is hugely gigantamongous.  For me, its a risk.

If I stick with the Cherry Red keyboards I have now then I get real Function keys.  I have coding stuff set up on my function keys so I can press a single button to trigger some text.  On Ergodox I hafta press 2 keys. (2x the keys = 2x the pain)  I only get to press a certain number of keys per day before the pain gets to high.  I don't even know how SHIFT+F1 would work... I think to use the temp Layer key would require too much finger gymnastics which would hurt my hand immediately so that leaves using the Layer Switch key (whatever its called) but then I have to 1. Switch layer  2. Press SHIFT+1   3. Switch back to original layer.  So that is 4 keypresses instead of 2.   Some of the macros would no longer really be worth it.

What if shifting with my thumbs doesn't work out for me?  I would like to be able to shift with my fingers in the middle of keyboard.  I need extra keys in the center of the board that are freely definable.  In my dream keyboard there are at least 4 columns of keys in the center of the board.  I have been wanting that since 2003.  But Ergodox has only 2 columns and some of the keys are critically important layer keys and cannot be done away with.

> Dude, you can like totally redefine the layer keys to be shift keys.

How do you know it actually works?  Have u tried it?  What if there is a bug in the controller software so that you can redefine any key you want except the layer keys?  That is exactly the kind of bug/limitation I would expect.

If I could redefine the layer keys to be elsewhere, which other keys would I destroy?  This is why a keyboard needs a few extra keys on it so you don't get jammed up just because you want some extra shift keys.

You see, switching to Ergodox is a risk.

Now you can see why there is only a 50% chance of Ergodox actually helping me.

If I stick to my brand new (complete garbage currently being held together with scotch tape) Rosewill then I at least get my cherry red switches with a beautiful spring under every key that works on PS/2 and I get 12 function keys and a whole entire numeric keypad filled with keys that I can redefine to do special things.  In fact, writing this msg has given me a great idea how to make an ergo keyboard out of a normal keyboard without having to pay someone thousands of $$$ to build my dream keyboard!  Wow!  Thank u Sordna for harassing me into writing this!  ;D  My new idea does not replace my dream keyboard but it might possibly maybe be "barely good enough" for me to squeak by with.
Rosewill RK-9000RE #1 (Broke on day 26, fixed with Scotch Tape on day 42, barely holding together)
Rosewill RK-9000RE #2 (Lubed, still in the box.  I am afraid to use it because it will break like the first one)

Offline AloisiusFauxly

  • Posts: 32
Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1147 on: Sun, 13 January 2013, 15:34:22 »
if someone will fix the USB/PS/2 issue.

Why is it an issue for you that it needs to be PS2? Need more than 6KRO? Legacy pass-through devices, or using it on an old system?

Offline SmallFry

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Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1148 on: Sun, 13 January 2013, 15:35:43 »
Don't ask man... Don't ask.

Offline Glod

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    • YouTube Channel
Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #1149 on: Sun, 13 January 2013, 15:51:40 »
TC, i think you should have brought that and other posts into a separate thread. This thread is here for the interest, development, testing, and construction of the ErgoDox. Over the last year, feedback and interest was fielded by talented individuals that collectively made the final product. I have nothing but respect for the people involved in the Phantom, GH60, and ErgoDox projects.

This project's development is open source; you have had the honor of been given resources directly from the team and if you acquire a ErgoDox you are free to do and share whatever you want to do with it.

If you want to be critical of the ErgoDox and split keyboard designs, i wouldn't suggest doing that here, i would create a new thread doing so.

If you want to be critical of keyboards that do not support PS/2 such as Topre and others then also create a thread doing so instead of doing that in a unrelated thread. Creating a new thread is easy and there are multiple forums with different categories to create threads in. You are likely to get more accomplished in a new thread about your concerns than in posts you drop in on.

The MassDrop GB seems to be a success, and people who are new to geekhack who were brought here by interest in the ErgoDox are going to see your posts in here and feel less inclined to participate altogether. This is exactly what happened lately in the Deskthority.net thread; things were very constructive in the thread and then it went to hell and actually caused people to loose interest in the ErgoDox the way i see it; thankfully DorkVader came to action.

I am not trying to "troll" you and get you worked up but you have insulted me, you have insulted ic07, and i am 100% sure you have insulted other members of geekhack and the ergodox project with your last few posts in this thread.

Please keep this thread about the interest, construction, and testing of the ErgoDox. It is located in the "making stuff together!" area for a reason. Do not post threads that will discourage new/existing geekhack members of participating in these discussions. Please create new threads related to your arguments and field interest from others that share your views.