Happy Hacking Keyboard thoughts

[bloodygood]

I will start by saying I truly do love my Happy Hacking Keyboard Lite II in white. The layout is perfect for my everyday typing at school (taking programming classes) and I take it with my every day to classes. And although I do think the HHKB Pro 2 is nice, the Topre switches just are not my thing, and I miss having the Fn key on the left side, along with the arrow cluster. Due to that I have not done more than a few short typing sessions on the HHKB Pro 2 (I do not currently own one since I didn't want to purchase something I didn't love). I believe though that if they released a version with cherry mx switches and added the Fn and Arrow keys back in I would definitely purchase it and not use any other keyboard. But I wanted to know how others feel about that idea, or perhaps what are your ideas about improving or changing the HHKB line to more fit what you prefer. Please note I am not saying I think the HHKB Pro 2 is a bad keyboard, I just said that as is that it is not the keyboard for me.

[HWI]

An HHKB with Cherry MX switches and an arrow cluster is essentially what the Noppoo Choc Mini is. You can even swap control and caps lock to have the same key configuration.

[RColinTaylor]

KBC Poker or Noppoo Choc Mini.

[bloodygood]

I suppose I should have clarified, I am not looking for a similar layout. I know there are other similar and essentially the same designs, but that is just what they are "similar" not exactly the same. That is what I love about my HHKB Lite II, it is the exact layout I love by HHBK.

[itlnstln]

An HHKB with Cherry MX switches and an arrow cluster is essentially what the Noppoo Choc Mini is. You can even swap control and caps lock to have the same key configuration.

Not even close.  The Poker is a bit closer, but nothing matches the HHKB.

[HWI]

Not even close.  The Poker is a bit closer, but nothing matches the HHKB.

I'd agree with you if we were talking about the HHKB Pro 2, but he was talking about one with dedicated arrow keys. In that case I think the Choc Mini is a better fit, having dedicated arrow keys and swappable Ctrl and Caps Lock. Though, the Choc Mini is bigger since it also adds the F key row unlike the HHKB and Poker.

[Wallach]

An HHKB with Cherry MX switches and an arrow cluster is essentially what the Noppoo Choc Mini is. You can even swap control and caps lock to have the same key configuration.

You can do this on the Choc Mini? Does the Caps LED not turn on?

Edit - Wow, I've never taken a serious look at this keyboard. I need to get one of these, pretty much everything I want at the moment.

[TheProfosist]

looking for a Mini keyboard that fits you? Check this out Dox KB

[bloodygood]

looking for a Mini keyboard that fits you? Check this out Dox KB

Actually I was just looking at that yesterday. I believe that will be my project in the future once I have a more stable income, since the project can cost upward of 200+ dollars. And I believe that I might actually add in the arrow keys also. So when I do that I will probably make a wiki or a sub-mod to show what I did different, but I will be trying to replicate the HHKB Lite II in cherry mx form. Also of course I will try to fit the arrow keys in comfortably since in the original they were made half-height keys. For example they put delete in the very bottom right, and that is probably where I would put the left arrow key to keep it very compact and expand right by 2 key lengths for down/up and then right arrow. But thank you for linking to that, I like how they make it a sort of step-by-step build your very own unique keyboard, and more people should see it.

[Impure]

I'd agree with you if we were talking about the HHKB Pro 2, but he was talking about one with dedicated arrow keys. In that case I think the Choc Mini is a better fit, having dedicated arrow keys and swappable Ctrl and Caps Lock. Though, the Choc Mini is bigger since it also adds the F key row unlike the HHKB and Poker.

You wont regret it~ Typing on the HHKB Pro 2 is great~
The Layout is a bit weird for me at start, since I am used to the normal key layouts
But as I have more experience with it, I love it more than any other keyboards I have
Also it is a great travel companion

[TheProfosist]

Actually I was just looking at that yesterday. I believe that will be my project in the future once I have a more stable income, since the project can cost upward of 200+ dollars. And I believe that I might actually add in the arrow keys also. So when I do that I will probably make a wiki or a sub-mod to show what I did different, but I will be trying to replicate the HHKB Lite II in cherry mx form. Also of course I will try to fit the arrow keys in comfortably since in the original they were made half-height keys. For example they put delete in the very bottom right, and that is probably where I would put the left arrow key to keep it very compact and expand right by 2 key lengths for down/up and then right arrow. But thank you for linking to that, I like how they make it a sort of step-by-step build your very own unique keyboard, and more people should see it.

right now a few of us are working on putting together pcbs and cases i plan to go with the layout below



additionaly things added that are not on there: Z: mouse 2 (right click), X: mouse 3 (middle click), C: mouse 1 (left click), V: mouse 4 (back), and F: mouse 5 (forward).

[pyro]

You should add doubleclick.

[bloodygood]

right now a few of us are working on putting together pcbs and cases i plan to go with the layout below
*snip*
additionaly things added that are not on there: Z: mouse 2 (right click), X: mouse 3 (middle click), C: mouse 1 (left click), V: mouse 4 (back), and F: mouse 5 (forward).

Is there a equivalent of a group buy going on? If so I would probably jump on that band wagon as that would reduce the price enough that I might do it. Although I would make mapping tweaks I could live with that layout of keys as it is very nice. I would assume since it is a teensy controller we could still map the layout our own way. Although it is nice that you could use a 87 key set to get all but 1 of those keys, using the Up arrow key for the Fn key, it would just need a special one for the Shift key which could be hard to make.

Edit: checked the size of the shift. Basically if we had a capslock size key sculpted to the second row it would be a perfect replacement with a normal letter or up arrow size key for Fn

[7bit]

An HHKB with Cherry MX switches and an arrow cluster is essentially what the Noppoo Choc Mini is. You can even swap control and caps lock to have the same key configuration.

Except for the Backspace key.
Except for the Function row.
Except for the 16th column.

[bloodygood]

I just paused to think about this, when was the last time you (referring to anyone here, not a specific person) pressed any of the right modifier keys? I don't think I have used the right side Alt Win Menu or Ctrl keys.. ever. I looked at an old keyboard of mine and those four keys have absolutely no wear and tear. I can't think of any reason to have them other than making it even on both sides of the spacebar. In which case, the Up arrow could be used as a Fn key next to shift and the other 3 arrow keys could the be modifiers on the left side of the spacebar, less space used. That might just be my preference for the smaller keys from using the HHBK Lite.

[7bit]

Show Image

What about this:


And a PCB to have both, a normal space bar and a mini-space bar plus a lot of modifier keys:

Or even more radical, getting rid of the asymmetric stagering, which went obsolete with electric typewriter in the 1970s:

[tsangan]

right now a few of us are working on putting together pcbs and cases i plan to go with the layout below

Show Image

additionaly things added that are not on there: Z: mouse 2 (right click), X: mouse 3 (middle click), C: mouse 1 (left click), V: mouse 4 (back), and F: mouse 5 (forward).

esc over ~ please!!!!

[hcry4]

I just paused to think about this, when was the last time you (referring to anyone here, not a specific person) pressed any of the right modifier keys? I don't think I have used the right side Alt Win Menu or Ctrl keys.. ever. I looked at an old keyboard of mine and those four keys have absolutely no wear and tear. I can't think of any reason to have them other than making it even on both sides of the spacebar. In which case, the Up arrow could be used as a Fn key next to shift and the other 3 arrow keys could the be modifiers on the left side of the spacebar, less space used. That might just be my preference for the smaller keys from using the HHBK Lite.

Alt+Enter for fullscreen, right side windows key for shortcuts, and right control is good for dvorak shortcuts.

[bloodygood]

I was actually thinking something along the lines of this. Since I really do not use any of the modifiers on the right side.

For those out there who love their media keys and such, here is standard sized keys on the right side instead of 4 mid sized.

I guess I will also add this template incase anyone is interested

Business on the left, Party on the right

[7bit]

If you employ 1 unit keys on the right, you can get one step further and integrate a cursor block a la HHKB Japanese version.

I'm waiting for the day when somone comes with an improved HHKB layout which is not just the 5x15 field of a 104 key standard keyboard.

[bloodygood]

I have been working on an idea, throwing it around with moving keys and such. As soon as I finish the set up I will post a picture of it and ask for advice on updating and tweaking to perfect it.

Edit: one thing I had thought about which may seem silly to some was just use the default HHKB Lite layout, and then make a USB arrow cluster. Since the hhkb has 2 USBs on the back anyway, why not use them? Create a arrow cluster for one, and a media (Play,Stop,etc..) control for the other. Very compact and could possibly be used as accessories for laptops, desktops, maybe even tablets.

[TheProfosist]

esc over ~ please!!!!

that was already in the plan i just didnt modify the picture to look that way because when I did it initially I was in a hurry

[bloodygood]

Still working on the HHKB redesign, but this is something I started on the side for curiosity sake. If it would be possible as I mentioned to create a 6 button usb addon. Would this be an good/useful design that would interest anyone.
default in black.
shift modifier in green.
Fn modifier in red.

[7bit]

...

Show Image

Not so much. The cursor block should be either integrated or just be missing.

[TheProfosist]

Not so much. The cursor block should be either integrated or just be missing.

agreed. also why does one need dedicated cursor keys? Even the current ones on the HHKB are really nice once you get use to them. I find my self trying to use them on a regular keyboard all the time.

[duncan]

agreed. also why does one need dedicated cursor keys? Even the current ones on the HHKB are really nice once you get use to them. I find my self trying to use them on a regular keyboard all the time.

+1

My opinion (feel free to disagree):
If you want the 'extras' (like cursor clusters) get a 86/87/88 key board and live with the extra size (not that much of an issue - especially if you start cluttering the desk with extra USB mini pads).
If you want the portability then get a true mini board and learn to use it as designed.
Trying for the middle ground seems likely to disappoint at multiple levels.

BTW I have only ever tried one HHKB Lite 2 and perhaps it was worn out or something but it was one of the worst feeling boards I have ever encountered. I would never abuse my fingers with such a nasty board as that example. It seems from your reports that the average Lite must not be as nasty as that example but that experience has put me off Lites for life (unless I experience one that is at least as good as an average RD).

OP
In your original post you said 'Topre are not my thing'. What does that mean? You really prefer a RD to a Topre? That seems almost impossible to me unless you are factoring in cost.

[hemflit]

Maybe I'm not in your target audience, but this is interesting to look at, and since you asked...

I just paused to think about this, when was the last time you (referring to anyone here, not a specific person) pressed any of the right modifier keys? I don't think I have used the right side Alt Win Menu or Ctrl keys.. ever.

Right Alt often for extra characters. All modifiers with arrow keys when selecting text. Right Control when I'm doing non-typing things with the mouse in my right hand (like changing font size in a browser).

Right Win/GUI probably never though. I've also stopped using the Application key for some reason.

Still working on the HHKB redesign, but this is something I started on the side for curiosity sake. If it would be possible as I mentioned to create a 6 button usb addon. Would this be an good/useful design that would interest anyone.
default in black.
shift modifier in green.
Fn modifier in red.

Show Image

Then you can't press Shift+Home or Shift+End?

If you're already putting something on the side of the keyboard, why not have the whole thing with separate arrow keys, Home, End, PgUp, PgDn, Ins, Del?

[bloodygood]

Part of my reasoning for this is that a good percentage of keyboards do not have dedicated media keys. Also some people just cannot get used to the arrow cluster on the HHKB. The target audience would not be a huge percentage, but there are those people out there who might really love the idea, I cannot personally find a reason why this would not work as an addon for any computer/laptop not just HHKB users.

Then you can't press Shift+Home or Shift+End?

What exactly do you mean by you can't Shift+Home or Shift+End? Personally I do not use "hold shift, press home, select whole line" I just use it for jumping to front and end of lines when I am coding, so shift+selecting a line of text, would not do me much good. Instead when coding I tend to do as by that point I also have to reduce the length of the code by 1 line to remove empty space.

If you want the 'extras' (like cursor clusters) get a 86/87/88 key board and live with the extra size (not that much of an issue - especially if you start cluttering the desk with extra USB mini pads).

As far as what I was thinking, the size would end up being similar to the ins,del,pgup,pgdn,del,end 6 block, with just a close border similar to filco's extremely close borders.

In your original post you said 'Topre are not my thing'. What does that mean? You really prefer a RD to a Topre? That seems almost impossible to me unless you are factoring in cost.

Here I am only saying that I do not prefer the feeling of Topre over Cherry MX. And ONLY in the case of the HHKB Lite do I prefer using it as a membrane until there is a alternative with the same/better layout with MX switches.

[hemflit]

What exactly do you mean by you can't Shift+Home or Shift+End? Personally I do not use "hold shift, press home, select whole line" I just use it for jumping to front and end of lines when I am coding, so shift+selecting a line of text, would not do me much good. Instead when coding I tend to do as by that point I also have to reduce the length of the code by 1 line to remove empty space.

I dunno, I think I use Shift+Home and Shift+End. It doesn't have to be for the whole line (can be just the beginning or end) and it doesn't have to be for deleting (can be for copying). But no biggie, really, I think your mini keypad is a cool idea but I'm not in the target audience, so no skin off my nose.

[bloodygood]

I dunno, I think I use Shift+Home and Shift+End. It doesn't have to be for the whole line (can be just the beginning or end) and it doesn't have to be for deleting (can be for copying). But no biggie, really, I think your mini keypad is a cool idea but I'm not in the target audience, so no skin off my nose.

One thing is, perhaps it could be left un-programmed at first, or be "programmed to your order" that way anyone could have the 6 keys be anything they want.

[bloodygood]

I'd ditch the DIP switches myself.

Too retro hipster.

What DIP switches are you referring to, I was talking about pre-loading onto the teensy or similar that is inside of the device.

[hemflit]

You know what I'd be up for? A replacement PCB. You break open the HHKB, strip out its PCB, stick in the replacement one, leave all the springs and cups in place, close it up, and you find yourself with a programmable HHKB. How hard could that be?

[Dox]

You know what I'd be up for? A replacement PCB. You break open the HHKB, strip out its PCB, stick in the replacement one, leave all the springs and cups in place, close it up, and you find yourself with a programmable HHKB. How hard could that be?

You don't need a hole new PCB, you can just replace the controller with a teensy like hasu did.

[hemflit]

Thanks, I sort of know about that, but I keep trying to repress the memory.

It's a hugely attractive project to attempt, but also intimidating. I might just end up going for it one day, but...

[bloodygood]

I have been thinking about the design of the HHKB a lot in this past week and I have to say that I really can't improve upon in. The design really is well thought out but I have been giving it a lot of effort.

[bloodygood]

Results of todays efforts after finishing up some Java programming. WIP design for custom keyboard layout. Feedback appreciated.

And the Fn layer. (Num Lock layer is a over-ride one that will be finished later, similar to the one used in laptops)

[TheProfosist]

Looks very similar to my layout:

[bloodygood]

Looks very similar to my layout:

*snip to reduce length of post*

I did place each piece myself off of the top of my head, your layout is similar and it is in some ways similar to the HHKB layout, that is going to happen regardless because there are only so many comfortable key positions on a keyboard, but do you actually like it? I think you have a very good layout going but I imagine it will be tough finding that smaller shift key unfortunately. The media keys and mouse keys could be interesting, I am curious if you plan to use your keyboard instead of a mouse in certain situations or something?

[TheProfosist]

I did place each piece myself off of the top of my head, your layout is similar and it is in some ways similar to the HHKB layout, that is going to happen regardless because there are only so many comfortable key positions on a keyboard, but do you actually like it? I think you have a very good layout going but I imagine it will be tough finding that smaller shift key unfortunately. The media keys and mouse keys could be interesting, I am curious if you plan to use your keyboard instead of a mouse in certain situations or something?

I wasnt saying that you copied me at all just noticed that it was similar. I dont actually have that layout yet but I made it for the DOX keyboard and will use a similar function layer for the Phantom. About the mouse buttons I made a ['url=http://tinyurl.com/bv9ml9p]external switch set for my trackball[/url] and ended up using those when I needed to be very precise because you dont have to worry about holding down the switch on the trackball after a bit of use I noticed I sometimes used it with my mouse.

[hemflit]

Having a 2×1 key (a la backspace) in the top right corner would broaden the selection of keycap sets you can draw from. OTOH, if you're planning to only make one keyboard for yourself, this isn't a big deal.

Why do both of you put your fn-layer arrow keys on OKL; ? Wouldn't IJKL make it more accessible?

(To be honest, I've considered for a while just training myself to type from a position where the index fingers lie on FK, not FJ, and then an OKL; arrow cluster would be perfect. I don't suppose you've had the same thing in mind?)

[bloodygood]

Having a 2×1 key (a la backspace) in the top right corner would broaden the selection of keycap sets you can draw from. OTOH, if you're planning to only make one keyboard for yourself, this isn't a big deal.

Why do both of you put your fn-layer arrow keys on OKL; ? Wouldn't IJKL make it more accessible?

(To be honest, I've considered for a while just training myself to type from a position where the index fingers lie on FK, not FJ, and then an OKL; arrow cluster would be perfect. I don't suppose you've had the same thing in mind?)

Actually having the two keys in place of the backspace doesn't require any special keycaps at all. You could easily just take any of the Esc, F1-F12, Ps/SR, ScLk, Pa/Br, Ins, Home, Pg Up. All of those keys would fit where the backspace was. (They are sculpted keys, the top 2 rows use the same profile, and the bottom two rows use the same profile. Thus why the arrow keys are all shaped the same. In my case I could purchase a 87 key set and have all the necessary keycaps to create my keyboard. Although TheProfosist would still need a custom size shift key on the right, but other than that they could do the same buying a 87 key set.

The reason for placing the arrow keys all the way to the right is because if you place your hand on your keyboard with your pinky on the menu key and then place your other fingers on P L ; ' you will notice that your pinky doesn't have any strain. If you count the keys you will notice neither of us used "O K L ;" and  "I J K L" is too far to the left for your pinky to be comfortable. If you need to use your second hand for hitting the arrow keys then that is why I put a second set of arrow keys where "W A S D" is.

On a side note I do not type with index fingers on f and j, I used to be heavy into gaming and so I trained myself to basically type 70% with my left hand so my right hand would be free to use the mouse for faster controls. I also type 90 wpm still even with a strange hand position like that. I hit Y with my left hand, and I hit B with my left hand. I hit H with either my left hand or right hand. I wouldn't recommend learning to do this unless you plan on being a gamer in a future life, I just learned it young and couldn't correct it, sounds like I adapted well though right? lol

[hemflit]

Oh right, got it, I miscounted the keys, PL;' it is.
Yup, makes sense if you're moving your hand so the menu key is nicely hit by the pinkie. Thanks for explaining.