a modern Model F

[sherlock22]

hi. i have recently got interested in keyboards. i have done some searchs online. it seems many people love Model M and consider it the best keyboard ever manufactured. but from my searches i understand that Model F is much better(of course i am talking about the switches). I see Realforce and HHKB are really expensive(i see some HHKB's are around 500$), and yet they don't seem to be a match for Model F(considering the force diagrams, and they say their switches lifetime is 50million, half of a Model F switch lifetime). so why doesn't any manufacturer produce a keyboad with modern layout using the Model F switches? i don't think it would be more expensive than Realforce and HHKB keyboards, and as a result there should be more customers for it, than there is for those.

I think many people think the way i do. So i was wondering if there is a way to show our interest in such a product and make a company like Unicomp make such keyboards?

[fossala]

The expense of making the equipment. A model M was made as a cheaper Model F and new model M's are around $90 and the company that makes them doesn't like to do anything that doesn't use pre-existing equipment.

[sherlock22]

well, 90$ is nothing compared to a 500$ HHKB, so yes it can be very expensive changing the equipment. but can't they just sell it say 400$ to be able to earn profit in long term?

[wcass]

actually, i have been planning on making a modern model F - using the keys, barrels, springs, and hammers of an original model F, but with a flexible PCB instead of the curved rigid PCB of the original. front and back plates will be steal or aluminum plate that has been curved. the controller will be made from scratch using a teensy or Atmel and be programmable. the first layout i will go for will be a tenkeyless and a drop-in replacement to a SSK shell.

i'm looking for volunteers who would like to help develop this.

[fossala]

The HHKB is a stupid price for what it is and that is why even with keyboard enthusiasts no one buys it.

[sherlock22]

well maybe you are right fossala,

wcass: that sounds great. i wish i could join. but i live in asia. are you going to make both PCB's from scratch? is that possible?

[seferphier]

The HHKB is a stupid price for what it is and that is why even with keyboard enthusiasts no one buys it.

hahaha and your profile pic features a HHKB... ironically.

[fossala]

hahaha and your profile pic features a HHKB... ironically.

I never said I was sensible.

[wcass]

wcass: that sounds great. i wish i could join. but i live in asia. are you going to make both PCB's from scratch? is that possible?

i will design the flexible capacitive switch array and have it made in Asia - probably from one of these vendors:
http://www.alibaba.com/FPC_pid40050402

i will need help designing and programming the controller. DFJ has done much of the work ( http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:21459 ) but expect that it will need tweaking. for one thing, the flex pcb is mutch thinner than the IBM rigid pcb, so expect the capacitive signal to be much greater - not sure if that will be good or bad. also the number of signal/sence lines will be different. the controller will probably be made here:
http://dorkbotpdx.org/wiki/pcb_order

[sherlock22]

how much do you think it will cost?

isn't there a way to make this keyboard without having a model f already? for examle using a unicomp?

[wcass]

how much do you think it will cost?

isn't there a way to make this keyboard without having a model f already? for example using a unicomp?

you could use parts from a unicomp, but the difference in the feel of the F and the M comes from the different hammers. to get the same feel you need the same hammers. to use the hammers, you need the barrels.

just 10 minutes ago picked up a model F XT donor board off eBay for $34 delivered. the metal plates will run under $20. the controller will be about $30. a wild guess for the flexible PCB is about $50. the big expenditure will be time.

[REVENGE]

actually, i have been planning on making a modern model F - using the keys, barrels, springs, and hammers of an original model F, but with a flexible PCB instead of the curved rigid PCB of the original. front and back plates will be steal or aluminum plate that has been curved. the controller will be made from scratch using a teensy or Atmel and be programmable. the first layout i will go for will be a tenkeyless and a drop-in replacement to a SSK shell.

i'm looking for volunteers who would like to help develop this.

Holy ****, I am totally in if you're up for this. Only concern is that if you use the original model F concept, you'll need a lot of metal for shielding.

[wcass]

i picked up a cheap model F XT the other day and have it disassembled for testing. just thought i'ld share a couple interesting discoveries.

model M hammers work with model F barrels. by "work" i mean that they buckle properly and strike with enough force. i did not test if they create the capacitive effect, however i did line up a model M membrane under an assembled F barrel, M hammer, and key and it did register properly through a standard M controller.

also, F hammers work with M barrel plates. again by "work" i mean that they buckle properly. they do not strike with enough force to register on the membrane matrix, but if that membrane and controller were substituted with a flex capacitive matrix and controller then it should work. the M barrel plate does not have any shield value, but i'm not sure how much that matters. the HHKB has no metal plate at all (source), and that operates on the same principal.

[wcass]

yes, i found the same with a kindle fire.

in theory one could take any model M and replace just the hammers, membrane, and controller. the key feel should be the same as a model F. Rip, would you be interested in helping test this out? i have decent drafting skills, but i don't have a mini. i need a membrane to copy the outline and holes.