Any stores in Leeds (or West Yorkshire), UK, to try mech KBs out?

[derek trousers]

Afternoon all - I am in the UK. Does anyone know of a store in Leeds (or West Yorkshire) that has mechanical keyboards to try out? I have read on these forums for a while about Cherry Browns but would like to try before I buy. While I think I own a (salvaged) ALPS-based keyboard (separate post to follow) I am in the market for a UK-layout mechanical keyboard with MX blues or browns. I want to be able to get a feel for them.

If there are any Yorkshire folk who are aware of somewhere I can try one, I'd appreciate a shout out.

Many thanks.

--DT--

[leapius]

Hi yes you're in (partial) luck actually. I live in Bradford and wanted the same thing as you.   The only place I've found mechanical keyboards locally to try out is CCL (http://www.cclonline.com).   They have MX blue Blackwidows and an MX red Corsair in the showroom free to try out.

You probably already know where it is but it's really pretty close to the Birstall Ikea area (just go down the A650 towards Bradford and take a first left off the last roundabout by the Shell garage). Hope that helps. If you ever find a place to try an MX Brown out I'd like to know too! (I have an MX Blue, (old) MX Black, and old Alps(?) Viglen keyboard in my arsenal atm).

[derek trousers]

Great thanks leapius. I did wonder about CCL. Being in Bradford, are you aware of any independent PC shops that stock keyboards or is all this too niche a requirement?

[leapius]

I think it's a little too nich for the average Yorkshireman.    I guess there could be an independant buried somewhere but in all likelyhood the only mechanicals you'll see on display are the more mainstream gaming-type keyboards and at the moment I don't think there actually is an MX brown uk gaming keyboard out there (Blackwidow Stealth is US only at the moment).   If you find one let me know.

[stingrae]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mechanical-Keyboard-Mx-Brown-Keycaps-International/dp/B007OK938Y/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1335259421&sr=8-2

Just thought i'd see...kinda about what you pay buying from qtan but perhaps better to get what you want from pchome.

Not a bad board but I'd say get a Filco and be happy, if you have the cash and want to make the switch. Honestly the switch to ANSI is smooth the layout makes a lot more sense  ' + " on same key. I only really miss \ being next to z but not by much I don't think I could go back to that. As for pounds alt+shift+4...

[leapius]

I actually have an ANSI - I just couldn't give up a 'proper' enter key in the end

[derek trousers]

It almost seems there is, in the UK at least, Filco for pure typists and everything else is aimed at the gamers' market. (Cherry's G80 looks a little too, well, big, for me).

That's all fine, and the inner child in me is attracted to the backlighting of the QPAD MK80 Pro, but I am still wondering what blues (QPad) feel like over browns (Filco Majestouch 2). And here's the weird thing - I OWN a mechanical keyboard but, being a noob, I am not sure what the hell it is. I will ask about it more fully as a "hello, new here" post on this 'ere board.

--DT--

[vrapan]

I think it's a little too nich for the average Yorkshireman.    I guess there could be an independant buried somewhere but in all likelyhood the only mechanicals you'll see on display are the more mainstream gaming-type keyboards and at the moment I don't think there actually is an MX brown uk gaming keyboard out there (Blackwidow Stealth is US only at the moment).   If you find one let me know.

I wouldn't buy that but if you do want it you can get one from the Razers european e-store.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

… I am still wondering what blues (QPad) feel like over browns (Filco Majestouch 2).

Primarily, the tactile point is more concentrated – if you press a brown slowly, the tactile point is elongated and rough, while the tactile point on blues is very short and sharp. If you type fast on browns, the tactile point is barely noticeable, but it is definitely there; with blues it's just that little bit more noticeable. Blues are still a very light switch though, which suit proficient typists (not me ;-) What's more noticeable with blues is the weird way of achieving the click sound, but there's not a lot of choice – it's basically MX blue or buckling spring now. I'd prefer a keyboard of MX greens myself, or a variable weight with centre greens and outer blues, just to put a bit of meat into the switches.

What annoys me more about Cherry isn't the G80 series (which aren't exactly appealing), but rather the G84-series ML switch keyboards can't get ISO layouts right. Just needs to be a bit wider, such that \ can go where it's supposed to go; it's sad that even Cherry can't grasp the idea that people can press keys without looking for them, and therefore that they need to be placed into the expected position. I don't get it – laptops mostly manage sane layouts now, so why can't Cherry do the same with a mini trackball keyboard?

[Squelos]

Blues click with a really high pitched sound. You also feel a very distinctive snaping when the actuation point is hit. Right before the actuation point, that is where the most force is required.
Browns seem a bit lighter than blues, and you can barely feel the tactile bump when typing. It feels a bit gritty during the tactile bump. But when typing really fast, you cant really feel it.

[hamza_tm]

I've only tried blues and blacks, can say that blues just felt weird, I type better on blacks without worrying about applying the exact pressure to bump over the tactile point on every keypress

Maybe because I don't touch-type properly yet... learning though!

[derek trousers]

Thanks for this Daniel. Why do the G80s not appeal?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

They're a little ... oversized, dated. Still, I'm considering ordering one in order to try out clears.

[derek trousers]

Thanks Squelos - I have heard this "gritty" word used to describe Browns before. If I am going to feel anything (and I would like to feel something) I would prefer more of a snap than a bit of grit! Blues might be the way to go.

[derek trousers]

G80s are clears? I assumed they would be blues as Amazon lists it as click action. I assumed clears were too hard to find now!

[leapius]

Derek, go try a Blackwidow - chances are one or two of the MX blue keys will be slightly 'malfunctioning' and not click as crisp or loudly (or at all).   I think this will most closely represent an MX brown.

[derek trousers]

Doesn't bode too well for the BW!

[leapius]

I think that non-clicking MX blues are an issue with the switch in general that affects many boards out there.   The BW is not an amazingly well built thing really but it's not as bad as some people like to make out either.   I've seen reports of the Filco being a little bit crap in build quality too on this very forum as well. I think the best thing you can do is go and see for yourself and make your own judgements - these forums have the tendancy to be a little bit biased at times.

[derek trousers]

Interesting. From what I have read (admittedly not much - I'm quite new here) I would imagine Filco would come out unscathed after a juggernaut rolled over one.

[leapius]

lol I think that fact proves my point somewhat!

[Daniel Beardsmore]

G80s are clears?

Amazon are using icecat's garbage description, wherein all G80-3000 models are described as being linear, and having "membrane contact switches with rubber-mat technology". In this cut-throat age, few resellers have any remote interest in accurate specifications of any products, and most get their information from deeply unreliable sources. Manufacturers often aren't a lot better either.

Here is Cherry's official list of G80-3000 models, although Cherry refuse to use the switch colours, so the page is really unhelpful.

P models use Cherry MX black switches.
S models use Cherry MX blue switches.
Q models, falsely claimed to be "soft pressure point", are instead the hard tactile MX clear switches. Cherry won't ship the G80-3000 with browns, nor any tactile switch keyboards for the UK. There are more linear models than anything else – how many people around the world are being subjected to typing on linear keyboards in the workplace?

There is no UK model with clears. There is a US model with reds, but that's confusingly numbered G80-3494LYCUS-2 instead of G80-3000LYCUS-2. Maybe that's because it's NKRO instead of 2KRO?

[derek trousers]

Thanks for this Daniel. And gosh. Cherry sound almost elitist.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Misguided maybe … I have the dome equivalent to the G30-8000 and it's absolutely awful. They seem to want a finger in every pie, except selling MX brown keyboards – and that would be advantageous as G80-3000 keyboards are comparitively cheap!

That said, I want to try clears as I do think blues and browns are too light. It's a very hard balance – BS is great for rapid typing but single keystrokes require excessive force. Fukka switches get the force just right, but the force curve is too sharp and jarring ... I could get used to either though.

I guess some of us are just impossible to please (Topre variable weight is actually spot on in terms of force, but it doesn't click or clack! On the other hand, my FILCO with browns pings like crazy and it's a bit annoying after a few months using Topre.)

[derek trousers]

I know I am new here, but Fukka switches? Surely you jest.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It's Forward Electronics, correctly "Fuhua", but in time-honoured tradition got mistransliterated as Fukka, and that's how we all know them. AKA Simplified ALPS Type I.

[derek trousers]

Well I headed down to a recommended PC store and finally got to try a Cherry Blue. Glad I did. It felt a lot different from my Acer 6312-T keyboard. I loved the feel of it but good god was it loud - louder than my Acer I think (hard to judge in a store). And that spacebar was like a small drum bring struck! Surprisingly loud in fact. Too loud in fact. I trust the only sound from the Browns are from bottoming out? Wonder, therefore, if the sound would be similar due to the force with which I type. Perhaps a "lighter" switch such as a Cherry Red would "encourage" lighter typing. But having tried the Blue, I don't think it is for me, unfortunately. I love clicky, but don't love loud.

I am therefore still hunting. I have asked separately here on Geekhack if Blacks (which I think might be more suitable for my typing "style") might be better, but as ever, it's a real pain not being able to try these variations out!

[vrapan]

The noppoo choc mini with browns is quite ok actually. Not much worse than my HP with domes since I had to bottom that out anyway. I am slowly learning to recognise the little bump on the browns so some of the keys I type a lot lighter than I used to which makes it even quieter really.

At work nobody seemed to notice much, my boss that seats next to me actually said she founded quite nice and rhythmic! So maybe a brown?

[derek trousers]

Maybe a brown indeed. The one colour I cannot find anywhere to try. It's a shame The Keyboard Company are 200 miles away. Could happily spend an hour or two trying them all out!

[leapius]

Did you try out the Corsair MX Red whilst you were there?   It's nice but I hate non-tactile and the springs are just too light for me.   I was initially with you about the sound of the Blues but I have to say after a few days the sound seems quieter. I know it's not but really you don't notice it as much and I really like the positive confirmation that I've pressed the key when you're typing at speed.   The browns are still pretty loud when you bottom out (which let's face it most people do!) and by all accounts the tactile response is minimal when typing and not deliberately noticing it.

[derek trousers]

No I didn't. I intend to head back when they have them in stock to try one out. I know what you mean about the blues. If there is to be a bump, or confirmation, I want a significant one, not a scratchy, gritty one. I want to know how many people successfully train their fingers to not bottom out. I can imagine it's bloody tough (even with the most "bottom-resistant" switch type) and, as I full expect to bottom out on whatever I type, am therefore wondering about linear after all.

[leapius]

For me personally trying not to bottom out causes hand strain.   They had a Corsair on the right hand corner by the knock down stuff if you look there but I don't think it'll be what you're after tbh.   If you look in the wiki here there's a mod to glue the plastic slider (which creates the plasticy 'lego' click) to the top on a blue switch to turn it into a 'ghetto brown' but maybe that is to much hassle.   I almost did it with mine but concluded that I like the sounds afterall.   I recommend going through every key on that display board (there's two of them) - you might well find a switch which doesn't seem to click as loud or at all, which I think will be a fairly good approximation of a brown.   I think you'll be surprised how loud brown are when bottoming out.

[derek trousers]

For me personally trying not to bottom out causes hand strain.

Forgive my ignorance, then, but what is the point of a tactile switch?

If you look in the wiki here there's a mod to glue the plastic slider (which creates the plasticy 'lego' click) to the top on a blue switch to turn it into a 'ghetto brown' but maybe that is to much hassle.  

It is - I am not that adventurous! I just need to try them all out but that is frustratingly impossible in the UK. From what I read, the US folks seem to have more places to try these boards out (or am I wrong?).

I think you'll be surprised how loud brown are when bottoming out.

And this is what concerns me. I have the wife-tolerance-factor.

I shall call over to CCL later when I have more time. Thanks for the tip leapius.

[leapius]

Well yes, you're right of course - that is the point of mechanical switches in the first place and tactility plays a part in giving you a cue as to when you've actuated the switch. It's just that in reality not bottoming out is very hard to achieve and causes me to have to feather touch the keys and hovering my fingers above the keys rather than resting them on them whilst idling. I think this has to do with the springs being softer on more modern MX switches. I have an old MX black keyboard, which has stronger springs on it than the modern MX blacks do.   I think that extra resistance helps you regulate your finger power and stops you bottoming out as easily.   Getting hold of tougher springs however will be pretty difficult!

[derek trousers]

Reds still appeal though. Unless I am mistaken there is only 1 UK layout with reds that is actually available, and that's the Corsair K60, which will be useful to try but I would never buy (because they are not completely mechanical). And keyboard co doesn't sell cherry reds. Becoming a bit of a glum thread now, isn't it?

[leapius]

lol well there are other switch types out there but for us brits it's basically a lost cause.   Don't forget MX reds are the lightest spring in the range if I'm not mistaken so it just wouldn't work for me (to soft and no tactility). Everyone is different and really the only way you'll know is by trying one out for at least a few days before you know if you can live with it. A difficult thing to achieve!   You could always buy on Amazon and send it back within 7 days (and use some rubber gloves with it so you don't smudge it)   It's what I ended up doing to convince my girlfriend that the MX blue wouldn't drive her mad (and it doesn't!).

[Daniel Beardsmore]

You found MX blues louder than an Acer? Interesting. I've got an Acer 6312-TW and that's pretty loud.

MX blue is also extremely light in comparison to Acer.

Switches available in UK layout keyboards: ML (almost); MX black, blue, brown (various), red (Qpad); Fukka white (Tactile Pro 3, for Macs); BS (Unicomp); Topre
Switches available in ISO but not UK: MX clear (G80-3000LQCDE)

Not available in ISO: XM of any colour, Fukka black

Just plain not available: MX variable weight (grey/brown, green/blue), MX greens

[derek trousers]

You found MX blues louder than an Acer? Interesting. I've got an Acer 6312-TW and that's pretty loud.

MX blue is also extremely light in comparison to Acer.

Switches available in UK layout keyboards: ML (almost); MX black, blue, brown (various), red (Qpad); Fukka white (Tactile Pro 3, for Macs); BS (Unicomp); Topre
Switches available in ISO but not UK: MX clear (G80-3000LQCDE)

Not available in ISO: XM of any colour, Fukka black

Just plain not available: MX variable weight (grey/brown, green/blue), MX greens

It might have been the way I was typing it to be able to hear it!
Where are the Topre switches Daniel? And when you say you can get a red Qpad, I take it you mean importing from Sweden?
Finally, MX Black - the steelseries 7g?

[derek trousers]

lol well there are other switch types out there but for us brits it's basically a lost cause.   Don't forget MX reds are the lightest spring in the range if I'm not mistaken so it just wouldn't work for me (to soft and no tactility). Everyone is different and really the only way you'll know is by trying one out for at least a few days before you know if you can live with it. A difficult thing to achieve!   You could always buy on Amazon and send it back within 7 days (and use some rubber gloves with it so you don't smudge it)   It's what I ended up doing to convince my girlfriend that the MX blue wouldn't drive her mad (and it doesn't!).

Lost cause? Is there just not much demand in the UK? Too niche?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

The Keyboard Company sell Topre Realforce keyboards, and Cherry and FILCO keyboards with MX black (as well as Unicomp buckling spring and Fukka white Tactile Pro 3s). Not sure whether you'd be able to try anything out if you visit them in Gloucester though; I've simply bitten the bullet and ordered things in the hope that I'll like them; the only keyboard I've sold on is the FILCO Zero as it was truly awful – the buyer is going to convert it to complicated blue ALPS.

Yes, you'd have to import reds from Sweden and clears from Germany. I'm considering the latter.

[derek trousers]

Blimey -how many bullets have you bitten?

[derek trousers]

Oh - remembered why I discounted the Topre. £198! Gulp

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Not that many – FILCO Majestouch blue and brown together (for home and work respectively); Unicomp Spacesaver (ordered direct from the Unicomp in the US); FILCO Zero US TKL; Matias Tactile Pro 3; Topre Realforce 105UB. All from keyboardco except the Zero. I've been insane long before I got interested in keyboards.

I haven't ordered keyboards all the way from China like many here do (although those are all US layout anyway).

I was going to get a KBC Poker with MX reds via the Deskthority group buy, until it transpired that KBC didn't have ISO layout ready yet.

However, I'm not likely to buy anything else unless it's really worth it, and as most keyboards are light Cherry based, I don't have many options for slightly stiffer switches.

[derek trousers]

So a little under £800 in total? I can see why people say it can become an expensive hobby. I have neither the cash nor space, but your collection sounds wonderful! Was not aware of the deskauthority group buy. Interesting idea. Do those take place often?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

There always seem to be group buys on the go for something, typically keycaps, but also keyboards and, now, replacement aluminium keyboard cases that alone cost more than the cheaper mechanical keyboards.

The problem with the keycap ones is that a full set of keycaps (US base kit + ISO extension kit) can run to £100, and that would buy me FOUR SETS of printed FILCO keycaps from keyboardco; I'm considering asking about Signature Plastics keycap wear, as their doubleshots are still ABS, and still soft plastic. I'm almost getting dazzled at work now from the shine from worn FILCO keycaps in a two-year-old keyboard, while I have a BBC Micro from a school that still has all the original texture on the doubleshot keycaps as though it were new.

I actually bought two FILCO MX brown keyboards and gave one away, but yes, ~£800 in new keyboards (I got the Zero cheap at "only" £50), plus a few non-mechanicals and second-hand keyboards including the Acer.

The secret in my case I guess is being single and completely unsociable, so no money on women, drink, or anything else for that matter, and my PC is pushing eight years old. I don't have much else that I'm considering buying new, except possibly an MX with clears, as I could get the clack along with the resistance, that Topre doesn't deliver, although Topre is a fantastic switch.

I really need to get myself a certification of insanity … I'm just way too anal about the need to select the correct disorders. I need to find a simpler one

[smknjoe]

It's not very easy to test ALL of them out in the US either. Maybe this will go on world tour if enough Europeans are interested. http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23914-Cherry-Switch-Tester-Holiday-Tour-2011!&highlight=tester I've already ordered a couple more boards with Blues and white ALPS. The clears sound interesting, but haven't found where to get any yet.

I've only tried the browns so far and they are pretty light and the bump isn't noticeable when typing at speed. As someone else said, it's very easy to accidentally hit a key when resting on the home keys.

[derek trousers]

Nice link! I really need a keyboard museum now. (If there's a pencil museum why shouldn't there be a keyboard museum?)  Your jargon is wearing this noob out...

[derek trousers]

What a lovely idea. Thanks for the link smknjoe. It's easy to miss older posts in this massive forum (by the way - can Android users post to this forum using Tapatalk? Looks an interesting app. Thought I'd ask.) Anyway, I'll add my interest to the thread. Thanks again.

[smknjoe]

No problem. After reading that thread again it seems that they may already have someone managing a European tour. Good luck! You sound like you have similar typing requirements as mine, and I'm very interested in the Cherry Clears.

Don't know about Taptalk.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Yes people use Tapatalk here, much to Ripster's annoyance.

— This post sent from my Desktop Computer® using a keyboard.

[derek trousers]

I assume if I do some digging I will understand Ripster's annoyance. Me - I'm typing this in a browser window on my Android phone, and it ain't easy.