Author Topic: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making  (Read 233064 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 513
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« on: Fri, 22 June 2012, 13:13:24 »
We are releasing new keyboards soon (both PC and Mac) with 2 new mechanical switches that we've spent the last 2 years developing.  They are based on the Simplified ALPS switch design, with significant improvements...
   
The White switch is similar to the White Fukka ALPS switches which Fuhua stopped making early this year.  Our switch has a slightly lower actuation force (60±5 gf) and a more precise operating range than the old Fukka switch (70±25 gf), but is still tactile and clicky.  It is made from better quality materials than the old switch, and has a longer operating life -- 25 million actuations tested so far.  We've also eliminated the annoying "chorus of springs" sound that Fukka boards made, caused by the springs in all 100+ switches on the keyboard vibrating for a while after you press a key.

   
The Orange switch design is based on the switches used in the Apple Extended Keyboard II (AEKII).  It is tactile but very quiet, with internal sound dampeners.  Actuation force is also (60±5 gf).


Much ground has already been covered in another thread, which is worth reading as background for the discussion here...

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?32409-Another-quiet-mechanical-keyboard-thread

In addition to the new keyboards, we will be selling these switches to any manufacturer or user who wants to purchase them.  Price will be $100 for a box of 800 switches (12.5¢ per switch.)
« Last Edit: Fri, 22 June 2012, 13:26:51 by Matias »

Offline TexasFlood

  • Posts: 1084
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 22 June 2012, 13:16:49 »
This innovation has been welcome news.
I have at least one board I've love to upgrade with these switches, anxiously awaiting.

Thanks

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 513
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 22 June 2012, 13:29:13 »
Quote from: TexasFlood;619617
This innovation has been welcome news.
I have at least one board I've love to upgrade with these switches, anxiously awaiting.

Thanks

Thanks.  We're pretty excited to have them finally done.  It's been a long road.

Offline alaricljs

  • I be WOT'ing all day...
  • ** Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 3715
  • Location: NE US
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 22 June 2012, 13:38:53 »
Any possibility for a sample?  A few of each switch for a reasonable fee plus shipping would be nice.  Also do you have PCB layout diagrams (or similar) available?
Filco w/ Imsto thick PBT
Ducky 1087XM PCB+Plate, w/ Matias "Quiet Click" spring-swapped w/ XM Greens

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 513
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 22 June 2012, 13:46:43 »
Yes, we'll be offering a sample pack with a few of each switch and some keycaps, but we're still figuring out how to package it so that shipping costs are as low as possible.

As for PCB layouts or keycaps or anything else, feel free to post requests.  If we can do it, we will.
« Last Edit: Fri, 22 June 2012, 13:48:55 by Matias »

Offline mkawa

  •  No Marketplace Access
  • Posts: 6562
  • (ツ)@@@. crankypants
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 22 June 2012, 16:07:22 »
i'm definitely in for a sample pack. i grew up with all the different AEK variants, and i have a lot of friends who are looking for quiet keyboards that i'm trying to sell on mechanicals.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline alaricljs

  • I be WOT'ing all day...
  • ** Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 3715
  • Location: NE US
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 22 June 2012, 16:08:58 »
Packaging/shipping:  ziplock bag, bubble wrap, Small flat rate priority USPS box.
$6.50 for shipping should cover the above 3 nicely.

As for PCB layout, go to the Cherry Data Sheet and search for Circuit Board Layouts or scroll till you see the 'graph paper', that's what I'm looking for :)
Filco w/ Imsto thick PBT
Ducky 1087XM PCB+Plate, w/ Matias "Quiet Click" spring-swapped w/ XM Greens

Offline Djuzuh

  • Posts: 1127
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 22 June 2012, 16:35:51 »
I'm really excited about those new switchs.

I will surely get the sample pack, and will probably buy one of your keyboards later.

Will you also make a keyboard using the white switchs?

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 513
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 22 June 2012, 16:49:05 »
Quote from: alaricljs;619777
As for PCB layout, go to the Cherry Data Sheet and search for Circuit Board Layouts or scroll till you see the 'graph paper', that's what I'm looking for :)

Okay, now I understand.  Yes, that info will absolutely be in the spec sheet.

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 513
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 22 June 2012, 16:56:15 »
Quote from: Djuzuh;619815
I'm really excited about those new switchs.

I will surely get the sample pack, and will probably buy one of your keyboards later.

Will you also make a keyboard using the white switchs?

The Tactile Pro 4 for Mac will use the new white switches.

No plans for a PC version of the whites yet, but we'll see.  I think most of the demand on the PC side will be for the quiet orange switch keyboard.

Offline TexasFlood

  • Posts: 1084
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 22 June 2012, 17:00:54 »
Quote from: Matias;619838
I think most of the demand on the PC side will be for the quiet orange switch keyboard.
That's what I demand! Well, request, :wink:

Offline variant

  • Posts: 41
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 22 June 2012, 19:41:26 »
The actuation force is 60±5, what is the force to bottom out the key or do ALPS activate when they bottom out?
« Last Edit: Fri, 22 June 2012, 19:45:08 by variant »

Offline didjamatic

  • Posts: 1332
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 22 June 2012, 20:34:40 »
I'm ready.

IBM F :: IBM M :: Northgate :: Cherry G80 :: Realforce :: DAS 4

Online Findecanor

  • Posts: 4306
  • Location: Stockholm, Sweden
  • Dans öl tarvö... "Pöngö"
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 22 June 2012, 20:35:59 »
I think it is great that new switches are being made. However, I would have been more interested in something different instead of just clones of old switches. The old Alps switches have their shortcomings and because the old designs are being copied, I can only assume that the old shortcomings are being preserved.

Offline didjamatic

  • Posts: 1332
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 22 June 2012, 20:47:50 »
These aren't clones, they're revisions that will be backwards compatible with old keyboards, caps and existing tooling from some manufacturers which is a good thing.
Obviously they haven't been released yet so no one can comment on their performance but I'm hopeful they will be good and applaud the effort.
« Last Edit: Fri, 22 June 2012, 20:49:52 by didjamatic »
IBM F :: IBM M :: Northgate :: Cherry G80 :: Realforce :: DAS 4

Offline variant

  • Posts: 41
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 23 June 2012, 02:29:17 »
I am also curious how loud the ping is. When it was discussed in the other thread he seemed to take the ping concept as something different when he said it was gone.

Offline mkawa

  •  No Marketplace Access
  • Posts: 6562
  • (ツ)@@@. crankypants
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 23 June 2012, 05:33:11 »
he refers to ping in this thread as the spring actuation in one switch causing the springs in all the other switches to ring. the ping that people most often refer to is resonance in a switch mounting plate or ringing in a single switch mechanism

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline kalrykh

  • Posts: 39
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 23 June 2012, 08:44:34 »
Didja, you should shoot for a free review board :p I'm excited about this.  Ive got some blue montereys on the way and I loved the feel of the geekhack space saver, aside from the grittiness of off center presses.  Avoided a matias until now due to the flashiness and style of the chassis, so I look forward to this.

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 513
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 23 June 2012, 11:46:29 »
Quote from: Raging Salmon;619943
Matias - side question...

Have you thought about doing a Linear switch variant?  I don't know the specifics but this usually involves removing a portion of the Alps switch to make it happen.

If you created a quiet 50g Linear version of this it would definitely take a bite out of Cherry MX Red sales.


We'll see.

I think it's only gamers that like linear switches, and they've standardized on Cherry.

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 513
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 23 June 2012, 11:53:41 »
Quote from: variant;619938
The actuation force is 60±5, what is the force to bottom out the key or do ALPS activate when they bottom out?


Bottoming out force is around 35 gf.

Actuation happens when you feel the tactile bump.

Offline TexasFlood

  • Posts: 1084
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 23 June 2012, 14:24:06 »
GIMME! GIMME! GIMME! NOWWWWW!!! {Regaining composure}

Ahem, sounds good, patiently waiting... :wink:

Offline Djuzuh

  • Posts: 1127
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 23 June 2012, 16:46:52 »
Will you also sell keycaps fitting your switchs? :D

Offline variant

  • Posts: 41
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #22 on: Sat, 23 June 2012, 17:51:58 »
Quote from: Matias;620292
Bottoming out force is around 35 gf.

Actuation happens when you feel the tactile bump.


I assume that's from the point of actuation? What's the peak force? What is the peak force or the force going from non-actuated to bottomed out? I am not familiar at all with any Alps switches so I am trying to get a comparison to MX switches.

Offline MMB

  • I no longer use this account. Please email me.
  • Posts: 1162
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #23 on: Sat, 23 June 2012, 17:55:54 »
Did I hear mention of PCB's? Not sure where I saw that, but would be interested in custom layouts. Specifically cherry-aligned capslock and winkey-less.

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 513
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #24 on: Sat, 23 June 2012, 18:25:33 »
Quote from: variant;620439
I assume that's from the point of actuation? What's the peak force? What is the peak force or the force going from non-actuated to bottomed out? I am not familiar at all with any Alps switches so I am trying to get a comparison to MX switches.

The peak force is 60±5 gf.  It's a tactile switch, so once you break past the peak force it drops dramatically to around 35 gf.

Offline hazeluff

  • * Vendor
  • Posts: 2384
  • Location: Vancouver, BC
  • DEMILK!
    • Originative
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #25 on: Sat, 23 June 2012, 19:00:54 »
Shut up and take my money!

Offline Elrick

  • Hype Master
  • Posts: 4895
  • Location: CrapTown, Convict Settlement
  • Keyboard Orgasmist
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #26 on: Sat, 23 June 2012, 19:24:21 »
Quote from: hazeluff;620491
Shut up and take my money!

I'm with him.......100%!

Offline variant

  • Posts: 41
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 23 June 2012, 19:56:33 »
Quote from: Matias;620458
The peak force is 60±5 gf.  It's a tactile switch, so once you break past the peak force it drops dramatically to around 35 gf.


Ah, I see. So any information on the ping? Will the switches be PCB mounted or if they are plate mounted any hope there could be dampening on the plate? Will the dampeners on the orange switch dampen the ping?

Offline didjamatic

  • Posts: 1332
New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 23 June 2012, 21:57:19 »
Quote from: kalrykh;620222
Didja, you should shoot for a free review board :p I'm excited about this.

Haha, I'm happy to be a buyer if it's decent and coming from Matias I'm sure it will be.  These are the kind of ventures I like supporting.
IBM F :: IBM M :: Northgate :: Cherry G80 :: Realforce :: DAS 4

Offline absyrd

  • CPT HYPE PADAWAN
  • Posts: 3070
  • Location: Philly Burbs
  • HHKB4LYFE
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 19 July 2012, 09:05:52 »
I can't wait to try these.

My favorite board is still my complicated white alps ergo, but after trying all these compact layouts and some quieter switches I'm ready for a smaller ALPs board that doesn't sound like a tuning fork.
My wife I a also push her button . But now she have her button push by a different men. So I buy a keyboard a mechanicale, she a reliable like a Fiat.

Offline Rafen

  • Posts: 458
  • Location: Ohio
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #30 on: Sat, 21 July 2012, 17:11:23 »
I'm so ready for this!

Offline targaryen

  • Posts: 9
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #31 on: Sun, 22 July 2012, 11:59:30 »
+1 any word on this?

Offline Icarium

  • Posts: 251
  • I AM A MONKEY!
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #32 on: Sun, 22 July 2012, 16:11:49 »
I can't wait to try these.

My favorite board is still my complicated white alps ergo, but after trying all these compact layouts and some quieter switches I'm ready for a smaller ALPs board that doesn't sound like a tuning fork.

I don't think I know this board. How about a little introduction? :)
I had a sig once but it's gone. It used to display an icon of a Kinesis. Just imagine that.

Offline Shirohane

  • Posts: 6
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 23 July 2012, 12:35:21 »
Looking forward to this.

Offline absyrd

  • CPT HYPE PADAWAN
  • Posts: 3070
  • Location: Philly Burbs
  • HHKB4LYFE
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 25 July 2012, 16:05:22 »
I can't wait to try these.

My favorite board is still my complicated white alps ergo, but after trying all these compact layouts and some quieter switches I'm ready for a smaller ALPs board that doesn't sound like a tuning fork.

I don't think I know this board. How about a little introduction? :)

I don't want to threadjack, but you can just google Chicony kb7000 and see some.

So to get back on track... when do you think we'll be seeing these switches and boards, Matias? What kind of layouts are you planning on?
My wife I a also push her button . But now she have her button push by a different men. So I buy a keyboard a mechanicale, she a reliable like a Fiat.

Offline aggiejy

  • ** Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 1125
  • Location: ~Austin, Texas
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 25 July 2012, 22:17:53 »
Looking forward to trying this board.  Orange switches specifically. :)

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 513
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 29 July 2012, 07:39:43 »
Hello everyone,

Nice to see GH back up.  Sorry for the delay replying.  My notification settings were set incorrectly...

The new keyboards are still on track for a late-August / early-Sept release -- about a month from now.

Also, we changed the stem colour back to white.  We found that the orange colouring changed the friction of the slider, which changed the force curve of the switch, so they're back to white.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

Offline mkawa

  •  No Marketplace Access
  • Posts: 6562
  • (ツ)@@@. crankypants
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #37 on: Sun, 29 July 2012, 10:02:27 »
welcome back matias!

any idea when we might be able to get our hands on datasheets/samples of the new switches? :D

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 513
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #38 on: Sun, 29 July 2012, 17:17:26 »
welcome back matias!

any idea when we might be able to get our hands on datasheets/samples of the new switches? :D

Thanks...  Datasheets and samples will be released around the same time as the keyboards -- in about a month.

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

  • Posts: 1874
  • Location: Hertfordshire, England
  • RIP
    • Boring twaddle
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #39 on: Mon, 30 July 2012, 04:50:37 »
So, wait ... you mean that the clicky and tactile switches are both white slider? Oh boy ...

How much of a difference did the colouring really make? I don't suppose it's likely to account for the difference in feel of existing switches, such as why Dell AT10* black ALPS keyboards feel so rough? Or do you mean that the sliders were still smooth, but just out of spec? I presume that the switches are smoother than black ALPS ;-)
Bore Awards
Most Boring Person on the Planet – 2011 Winner

Offline Matias

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 513
  • Location: Toronto
    • http://matias.ca
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #40 on: Mon, 30 July 2012, 08:00:13 »
So, wait ... you mean that the clicky and tactile switches are both white slider? Oh boy ...

Yes, they both have a white slider.  Don't worry, you'll still be able to tell them apart.

Quote
How much of a difference did the colouring really make? I don't suppose it's likely to account for the difference in feel of existing switches, such as why Dell AT10* black ALPS keyboards feel so rough? Or do you mean that the sliders were still smooth, but just out of spec? I presume that the switches are smoother than black ALPS ;-)

It made enough of a difference that it didn't feel as good.  That was reason enough to change it back.

Besides, nobody can see the slider when the keyboard is assembled.  The user just cares how it feels.  That's more important than the colour of a slider they can't see.

Offline damorgue

  • Posts: 1176
  • Location: Sweden
    • Personal portfolio
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #41 on: Mon, 30 July 2012, 09:25:52 »
So, wait ... you mean that the clicky and tactile switches are both white slider? Oh boy ...

Yes, they both have a white slider.  Don't worry, you'll still be able to tell them apart.

Quote
How much of a difference did the colouring really make? I don't suppose it's likely to account for the difference in feel of existing switches, such as why Dell AT10* black ALPS keyboards feel so rough? Or do you mean that the sliders were still smooth, but just out of spec? I presume that the switches are smoother than black ALPS ;-)

It made enough of a difference that it didn't feel as good.  That was reason enough to change it back.

Besides, nobody can see the slider when the keyboard is assembled.  The user just cares how it feels.  That's more important than the colour of a slider they can't see.
Some way to differ between them would be nice so that one could tell from a photo in an ad for instance.


How about the samples. That would boost its popularity a bit and get it rolling much faster and create the demand. People don't know about it and the demand won't create itself from nothing.

Hint hint, nudge nudge... samples?

Offline Djuzuh

  • Posts: 1127
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 30 July 2012, 16:09:40 »
He already said he'll sell samples.

Offline funkymeeba

  • CRUMPULAR
  • Posts: 406
  • Location: Colorado
  • WEST SHINJUKU PLANTING TUNE
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 30 July 2012, 16:20:08 »
These sound like they may be well worth trying. I think I might put some money aside for one of these keyboards. Hell, if I don't like it, I'm positive I can find at least one person. :D
Quote
17:15 < vun> these are the healthiest crisps I've ever come across
17:16 < vun> mostly because I can't get the bag open

meebcats - my bad music

Offline hashbaz

  • Grand Ancient One
  • * Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 5055
  • Location: SF Bae Area
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #44 on: Mon, 30 July 2012, 16:22:40 »
Excited to try these out as well!  My wallet awaits your command.

Offline braaaiiins

  • Posts: 138
  • Location: Texas
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 08 August 2012, 22:38:33 »
About time somebody else started making switches =) Can't wait to try

Offline damorgue

  • Posts: 1176
  • Location: Sweden
    • Personal portfolio
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #46 on: Sun, 12 August 2012, 14:46:47 »
You mean you haven't started ddos-ing yet? :P

Offline polpo

  • Posts: 61
  • Location: Cupertino, CA, US
    • http://polpo.org/
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #47 on: Wed, 15 August 2012, 19:57:56 »
*fingers crossed* Please make a tenkeyless board... Please make a tenkeyless board...
Matias Mini Quiet Pro / DSI SMK-88 (Cherry Black) / IBM Model M (10 Jul 86) / ThinkPad Travel Keyboard with Ultranav

Offline mkawa

  •  No Marketplace Access
  • Posts: 6562
  • (ツ)@@@. crankypants
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #48 on: Thu, 16 August 2012, 01:47:11 »
if matias can get us switches in quantity, we can make a tenkeyless board together :D

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline therecorder

  • Posts: 442
Re: New switches from Matias -- 2 years in the making
« Reply #49 on: Fri, 17 August 2012, 01:35:19 »
As usual, I'm a little confused.  I want to preorder the new version on http://matias.ca/order/, but I thought there was going to be a MAC version and a PC version.  How do you preorder the PC version?