Author Topic: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion  (Read 5671 times)

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Offline DanGWanG

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Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« on: Thu, 19 July 2012, 22:14:18 »
With the recent influx of CC sales going way overboard, I had a question for the Geekhack community and it's moderators. In addition, I wanted to offer some criticism/suggestions on how we can improve some of the community transactions.

Is GH planning to moderate or at least post rules about hidden bidding / secret auctions?

i've always been a supporter of free market, and continue to believe so.  However, this forum isn't simply a market for people to make profit on.  Like many of the other keyboard forums, members who attempt to profit are severely looked down upon.  And while that same criticism is applied here, it appears to be more acceptable and somewhat harbored/protected.  Unfortunately, this was a by product of trying to moderate via protecting sellers from being threadcrapped on.  (i.e. if you complain about a price in the thread, you are going to be given a warning for threadcrapping...essentially giving the seller opportunity to profit greatly off uneducated buyers)

What I'd like to suggest is that, if a user decides to run an auction, they should be subject to some rules.  The primary rule I'd like to suggest is that no hidden bidding or sales are allowed.  I like knowing the current market value of 2nd hand or 2nd market items because it helps to understand how much items are either depreciating or increasing in value.  The only way to measure that is to know how much an item was sold for.  Without that information in addition to hidden bidding/sales, it leaves the buyer(s) in the dark many times and the seller is presented with an opportunity to profit greater.  Not saying all sellers are evil, just saying they are presented with an opportunity and sometimes greed gets the better of us all.

By implementing a rule to eliminate hidden sales/bids/offers, it still allows the seller to openly auction an item.  Threadcrapping can still be moderated to protect the seller.  What I'm asking for is simply protection for the buyer.  Especially for buyers who are unaware of what something is actually worth.

---

I'd like to keep this thread with as much constructive criticism as I can.  As this is only my opinion, I know other people feel the same so I'm hoping members can dedicate their time and voice their opinions.

Thank you =)

Offline MMB

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 19 July 2012, 22:22:26 »
If people don't want their happy thread crapped, simply make the post and lock the thread and only deal through PM's.

But I think GH should implement an ebay-style auction system and charge a fee for doing so. This way, the seller doesn't have to deal with constant PM barrages, and everything is out in the open.

I am pretty sure there are some open source solutions for such an idea.

http://www.ajsquare.com/products/auction/index.php for one idea

Also http://www.auctioncode.com/viewforum.php?f=17
« Last Edit: Thu, 19 July 2012, 22:31:21 by MagicMeatball »

Offline The_Beast

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 19 July 2012, 22:28:30 »
The more transparency the better.


Would we see usernames on this auction plugin or just the big prices/bids?
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Offline AKIMbO

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Re: Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 19 July 2012, 22:48:09 »
The more transparency the better.


Would we see usernames on this auction plugin or just the big prices/bids?
I don't think the auction software is a perfect solution since it is easy to shill bid automated auctions.  Though, now that i think about it...the same is true for non-automated auctions.

Either way, I'm 100%against an auction that I
is not conducted within the full view of the public.
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Offline MMB

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 20 July 2012, 00:13:41 »

Either way, I'm 100%against an auction that I
is not conducted within the full view of the public.


But it would be in full public view. Just as you would create a poll thread, you would create an auction thread, essentially keeping track of the current top bid and number of bidders, etc.

Offline Lanx

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 20 July 2012, 05:59:47 »
just make it so that new threads in classifieds need to be approved by mods, and the way they get approved is through a 5$ posting fee. This way even if these no good dirty sellers (no my words) are only interested in selling, they are then contributing to GH in a monetary fashion and in a way gain respect as now their efforts are viewed as a positive.

Offline AKIMbO

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 20 July 2012, 06:50:11 »

Either way, I'm 100%against an auction that I
is not conducted within the full view of the public.


But it would be in full public view. Just as you would create a poll thread, you would create an auction thread, essentially keeping track of the current top bid and number of bidders, etc.

Yup...I was agreeing with Dan and everyone else in this thread.  It's too easy to rip the community off with an auction conducted via PM only. 
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Offline DanGWanG

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 20 July 2012, 10:33:34 »
All other keyboard sites have similar mentality.  Public auctions would also alleviate a lot if the concerns/threadcrapping people have.  If you look at the last few big flame topics in classifieds (DT and GH), it's always related to  reselling CCs and  hidden auctions.  Protect the buyers and stop harboring shady sellers :/

Offline elton5354

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Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 20 July 2012, 11:19:04 »
I too do not condone hidden bids that is why I changed it to open. I first tried/mentioned hidden bid was because I never actually done it before.

Offline alaricljs

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 20 July 2012, 11:24:41 »
We are not harboring shady sellers.  If you don't want to participate in their sale/auction/GB/whatever then you don't have to.  We don't condone anything except using good keyboards.

I'm not saying policy will not change after discussion with the team, but our focus right now is getting GH as a whole usable/stable/fast. 
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Offline DanGWanG

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 22 July 2012, 00:01:37 »
We are not harboring shady sellers.  If you don't want to participate in their sale/auction/GB/whatever then you don't have to.

I understand the fact that we have the choice to not participate, but that's not what I'm actually advocating.  I'm asking to help buyers who don't know the pricing of certain items to stray away from highly overpriced goods.  Isn't that what part of being a community is all about?  Helping eachother out, versus trying to drastically profit off eachother?

For example, see my quote below of a "shady" seller:
I'm not denying people are pissed about me selling my CC's for profit. I understand that and I don't care. I was just making a sarcastic statement to DangWang that is all.

How can you (not you specifically alaricljs) continue to let this member, who now has admitted to purchasing items from EK/CC at retail price ONLY to resell it back to the community members at the highest profit he can receive?

Offline dirge

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 22 July 2012, 02:50:42 »
I don't see why people giving feedback in their thread is seen as thread crapping.  It totally puzzles me.  I think giving people a warning for it is insulting.   I mean, if I say eltons prices are too high, it's not like I've called him a cock smoking wanker is it?

Everyone should be accountable to the community.  Hiding behind broken rules is cowardice.
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Offline Djuzuh

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 22 July 2012, 03:46:48 »
I don't see why people giving feedback in their thread is seen as thread crapping.  It totally puzzles me.  I think giving people a warning for it is insulting.   I mean, if I say eltons prices are too high, it's not like I've called him a cock smoking wanker is it?

Everyone should be accountable to the community.  Hiding behind broken rules is cowardice.

Agreed, as long as it isn't FUD or namecalling, I don't think it's threadcrapping.

I see GH as a community and not a selling plateform, but even Ebay has the option to give out negative rating and leave comments.

The main problem is preventing it to become a witchhunt.

Offline metafour

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 22 July 2012, 09:47:21 »
We are not harboring shady sellers.  If you don't want to participate in their sale/auction/GB/whatever then you don't have to.

I understand the fact that we have the choice to not participate, but that's not what I'm actually advocating.  I'm asking to help buyers who don't know the pricing of certain items to stray away from highly overpriced goods.  Isn't that what part of being a community is all about?  Helping eachother out, versus trying to drastically profit off eachother?

For example, see my quote below of a "shady" seller:
I'm not denying people are pissed about me selling my CC's for profit. I understand that and I don't care. I was just making a sarcastic statement to DangWang that is all.

How can you (not you specifically alaricljs) continue to let this member, who now has admitted to purchasing items from EK/CC at retail price ONLY to resell it back to the community members at the highest profit he can receive?

Let this member what?

Offline touchtype

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 22 July 2012, 23:49:55 »
Resell at a profit.

Offline limmy

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 28 July 2012, 02:16:58 »
I too feel GH's market is way too good of a platform for informed sellers to make huge profit, which leaves uninformed buyers(generally new members) at huge disadvantage.
1. Sellers can edit out prices for the things they sold (This leaves buyers at dark, whether it is the intention of the sellers or not. What is the reason for deleting the prices anyways? What would be the intention of hiding the information?)
2. There is freedom to set prices for sellers, but there isn't freedom to comment on the set price for potential buyers. Buyers have freedom to walk away? Don't you think there is some kind of imbalance here? If there is freedom to ask whatever prices publicly, there should be a freedom to bid for prices publicly (which may be seen as equivalent to commenting on prices).
3. Auctions are allowed. (Auction is selling platform where seller is 100% advantageous. I am not saying auctions should be banned, but I am saying this market is advantageous for sellers by allowing such platform.)

It seems to me that rules for classified is made having sellers in mind. Most of the rules(at least one seems to be enforced often) are protecting sellers, but not buyers. Even no bumping rule is focused on protecting other sellers.(Just take a look at the wordings of the rules on no bumping.)

Community where new comers(generally buyers) are ripped off will not survive in the long run. And I think some of the rules should be revised.

Offline Djuzuh

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 28 July 2012, 02:33:55 »
I think the biggest issue is the no threadcrapping at all rule.

it has gone way over its head, and is now solely protecting forprofit sellers. IMO it should only be here to ban FUD and to ban witchhunting.

It makes me think of 'murica where the quest for free speach has been driven so far out that they can't show a boobie or a tit on the TV.
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 July 2012, 02:35:34 by Djuzuh »

Offline IvanIvanovich

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 28 July 2012, 10:44:18 »
My feeling is just ban auctions on the forum. If they want to auction they can use ebay, and just make a comment that they have an auction up there. I also don't see why making a comment in someone thread like, hey you know the average sell price for that item is X, or hey, your price is more than the new that I can get at... is threadcrapping. It's being helpful in my opinion. It helps buyers be informed, and may also help the seller even though they may not get as much as they wished they can adjust the price instead of wondering why everyone is ignoring their sale.

Offline Wildcard

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 28 July 2012, 23:13:39 »
How about we just state that auction formats can be done off of GH but can be linked to a classified thread. There's nothing we can do about people trying to profit off of others. However, if the listing is in poor taste, the mods watching the classified section could make and update some type of informal block list. This list could then be used by people running GBs or selling in the classified section to "optionally" block those users.

That would serve as an incentive for people to cut the crap out.

Just a thought.
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 July 2012, 23:16:40 by RiffRaff »

Offline leeshjnn

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 02 November 2012, 18:55:06 »
I think it's inevitable that price of CCs will eventually rise. More people are using mech keyboards while the number of CCs is limited. When supply can't meet demand, the price will rise.

But, in order to be an efficient market, it will need to be open/ public. We all know how information from insider can help people manipulate the price of stock, the same with CC's. Auction will need to be open as much as possible, so people can do cross-check and avoid insane price. It's just a shame that a forum can't be much efficient in this matter due to the lack of capability.

I think the easiest way to create a feedback sub-forum. Upon receiving the item, the buyer will have to leave feedback for the seller. So if another guy pm the seller and offer a higher price, it's not legitimate because he does not post on the auction and the rightful buyer will not get the item -> negative feedback.

Just my 2 cents. Thank you for reading my craps :D.

Offline SmallFry

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 02 November 2012, 19:50:51 »
Off of the CC sale idea and onto a better format for auctions, but I just found some open source bidding stuff. I can host it for one or two auctions to try it out, if we'd like. I will not accept CC's to auction, just forewarning.
It's called WeBid.
« Last Edit: Fri, 02 November 2012, 19:52:32 by SmallFry »

Offline lazerpointer

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 22 January 2013, 13:07:32 »
Should give the OP the option to delete comments. Goodbye "thread crapping"

If there really is something bad about the sale and you think people should be warned, save it for the other trolls - pics are worth a thousand words. And posting comments about the price are just naggy and kind of makes you look like a spoiled brat. If I think a cap is worth $300, I post a classified for it and it turns out nobody buys it, it's not cause somebody posted "wahh wahh price too high" --- it's because people can think for them SELVES and decide it's not worth it.

Hidden bidding is morally wrong but you can't arbitrarily stop favoritism... It's human nature.
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Offline DanGWanG

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 22 January 2013, 13:55:12 »
Yes, and that's how GH functions basically today.  The 'Report to moderator' button is intended for use only by the OP (in Classifieds specifically) for post deletion of negative threadcrapping.  Positive threadcrapping, ok no problem even though it's against the rules.

I'm saying, if you're going to have a set of rules, enforce them.  And all I'm merely doing is suggesting adding a few things to the existing ones.  Add a ban list, and enforce rules more appropriately.

Offline jdcarpe

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Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 22 January 2013, 14:05:12 »
And move auctions to eBay. They are setup to handle them. GH isn't.
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Offline lazerpointer

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 22 January 2013, 14:17:29 »
Agreed 100% auctions need a Professional staff to moderate it - someone who is actually payed to make sure everything goes down fairly. A place like GH (at least for the time being) is more suited for personal sales.

Maybe DangWang should be a moderator. Seems good-intentioned....
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Offline DanGWanG

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Re: Classifieds - Hidden Bidding Rule Suggestion
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 22 January 2013, 14:37:23 »
Maybe DangWang should be a moderator. Seems good-intentioned....

Completely agreed =)

My understanding is, the Moderation Team is currently filled to maximum capacity and has no room.  There's quite a long queue and my application is somewhere in there.  But they perceive my passion for GH as a negative and have likely marked me off the list =/