Author Topic: Emacs and other layouts  (Read 2511 times)

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Offline karljs

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Emacs and other layouts
« on: Fri, 31 August 2012, 23:58:48 »
For the past few years I've considered learning the Colemak or Dvorak layout, but the biggest hurdle is my muscle memory for Emacs. I'm sure the same can be said for any (heathen) Vim users, too.

It seems kind of dumb to rebind the keys so that the positions of commands don't move on a new layout, especially since many have mnemonic meanings. Does anybody have experience, good or bad, making that switch?

Offline Kerosene

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Re: Emacs and other layouts
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 01 September 2012, 02:30:51 »
Heathen Vim user here. I'm sure the transition is harder for us than it is for Emacs users. When I jumped on Colemak I initially thought I would have to remap lots of stuff in Vim to survive. I ended up remapping nothing. Just got used to the new places of the few things which moved. It's really nice I don't have to mentally remap things when I'm reading Vim documentation; if documentation says "y", I press "y" on my KB layout.

Offline isp

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Re: Emacs and other layouts
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 01 September 2012, 15:30:29 »
Good luck with switching if that's what you choose to do.  I gave it some thought a while back, but I already type 120wpm and just don't feel the benefits would be worth it (to me anyway) to justify torturing myself with trying to supress 15 years of muscle memory.  Kids today should not be learning qwerty, but I think my generation is hopelessly stuck with it. 
hhkb

Offline karljs

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Re: Emacs and other layouts
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 02 September 2012, 02:32:33 »
Thanks for responses. I also type ~110wpm on qwerty, but am considering switching for ergonomics as opposed to speed. I have on-and-off wrist pain which seems to correlate to number of hours spent typing, even with a proper setup.

I'm leaning more towards colemak than dvorak purely because the zxc keys stay in the same place, which are all crucial in Emacs. I think that would probably minimize the difficult of switching.

I suppose I need to just pick a few weeks without urgent deadlines and give it a shot.

Offline TacticalCoder

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Re: Emacs and other layouts
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 06 September 2012, 12:24:02 »
but the biggest hurdle is my muscle memory for Emacs

I've got quite a particular Emacs setup because I find the default Emacs keybindings to be the madest shortcuts ever invented ; )

Two examples: the "C-x ..." and "M-x ..." (on a QWERTY keyboard) are just plain ridiculous and C-n C-f C-b C-p to "move the cursor" are totally crazy too.

And the entire Emacs keybindings are crazy like that.  I mean... Quite some people are considering Emacs to be responsible for some forms of RSI like the dreaded Emacs pinky syndrome. That is terrible in my book.

But then Emacs is entirely configurable: so I did remap basically everything.

For example I did remap ctl-x-map to "CTRL + one key that is easy to reach with the right hand".  I'm hitting CTRL where it should be (CAPS LOCK on some keyboard, that I remapped to CTRL), using the left pinky and then I do "C-x" using, say, "C-," on a QWERTY keyboard.

If I were to switch layout, I'd still use the same fingers: I only care about the physical position of the key.

Same for "moving the cursor": I use an "inverted T arrow" located on my right hand's home row.  On my QWERTY keyboard that could be: "alt+{i,j,k,l}.  I'm using ALT instead of CTRL because I'm hitting alt with my left thumb.  So, say, ctrl+p (two pinkies, ouch Emacs pinky) becomes alt+i (less fingers movement, stronger fingers and... zero pinkies involved).

Should I switch layout, I'd remap my Emacs and still use the same fingers / physical key position.

I'm not saying that you should replace all your shortcuts with shortcuts easier to touch-type or less pinky-problems/wrist-problems inducing: a lot of the mnemonics are actually quite useful, especially for the ones you don't perform all the time.  But honestly to move the cursor around I'm not thinking in terms of: "'f' means forward, let's hit 'ctrl+f' and that shall move the cursor to the right".

I'm also totally convinced that spending the five minutes it takes to install and learn ace-jump-mode saves a lot of keystrokes (using the last version of ace-jump-mode you can "jump" besides any buffer / window).


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Offline karljs

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Re: Emacs and other layouts
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 07 September 2012, 19:05:06 »
Thanks for the information. I tend to agree that the Emacs shortcuts don't always make a lot of sense, but it's going to be hard for me to shake. I, too, rebind caps-lock as ctrl on every board in every operating system, even if I'm not installing Emacs. That's helped quite a bit.

Additionally, I don't type "correctly". I type sort of dynamically, for lack of a better term, in that I use what feels most comfortable to me rather than hammering all those keys on the right with my pinky. This results in me hitting 'p' with my ring finger when using it for navigation commands.

That said, I like your {i,j,k,l} idea, and using different letters depending on the layout shouldn't make much of a difference. Maybe I'll give that a shot before I commit to learning a layout and see if I can adjust.

I also just watched a demo for ace-jump-mode and I'll definitely be giving it a shot. Thanks for that!