Author Topic: Black alps vs dampened white/creams  (Read 4830 times)

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Offline AKIMbO

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Black alps vs dampened white/creams
« on: Fri, 12 October 2012, 19:39:25 »
Does anyone have any experience with both switches? May I get your impressions?  I'm thinking about picking up a BNIB Dell AT101 or AT101W and I love dampened creams/whites. 
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Offline AKIMbO

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Re: Black alps vs dampened white/creams
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 12 October 2012, 19:46:33 »
Yeah...I've heard they age like a smokey donkey's arse.  Hence my going for BNIB over a used board (which is probably 1/3rd the cost of a BNIB board). 
Mkawa Beta SSK | IBM SSK | IBM Model AT F | IBM F 122 | IBM Unsaver | LZ-GH (62g ergo clears) | HHKB Pro2 Type-S | HHKB Pro2 | Realforce 87U-Silent (55g uniform) | Leopold FC660C | Omnikey 101 (blue alps) | Kingsaver (blue alps) | Zenith ZKB2 (green alps)
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Offline furosuto81

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Re: Black alps vs dampened white/creams
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 12 October 2012, 23:34:58 »
WHY do they age so poorly? Just a bad design, or poor materials?
Keyboards: Matias Quiet Pro Matias Quiet Click  |  Apple Extended Keyboard II Dampened White ALPS  |  KBParadise V80 Olivette Matias Quiet Click  |  CMStorm QuickFire TK B&W Special Edition White LED Cherry MX Red  |  Ducky DK9087S Shine 2 TKL White LED Cherry MX Red

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Black alps vs dampened white/creams
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 08:23:04 »
My experience is different.

I like the AT101 and don't understand why it gets so little respect here.

My first one came new with a Dell system in the 1990s and I used it happily for several years. Then I gave it to a colleague who put it in a closet for a couple of years, and later got it back from him and used it some more. It is well worn now, and keys are getting shiny, but it still works well and is pleasant to feel and hear.

I have bought half a dozen more, over the years, at yard sales and thrift stores, and discovered a huge spectrum of difference. Some looked great and felt terrible, and vice versa. I don't know how to predict until I use it.

My workspaces have always been clean, and I never eat over my keyboard. When I get a used keyboard, I give it a thorough cleaning.

The only theory that makes sense to me is that these black switches are particularly sensitive to dust and can develop a gritty or rough feel in the wrong environment. Most airborne dust settles straight down and can be cleaned up, but I wonder if some particulates are so fine that they can find their way under and around the keycaps.

At any rate, I suspect that a lot of the people here who dis the AT101 do it because they got hold of a bad one or two, and assumed that they were all like that. A good one can be really nice. And I would not trust all NIBs to be good, frankly.

PS - To answer the OP, I like the AEK2 less and less. Still a nice board, but that is not the kind of "dampening" that I want. I love dental floss in buckling springs, and O-rings on Cherries, but I think Apple dampened the wrong part of the action.
“This isn’t the same Trump that got elected in 2016, he’s worse.”
“Something snapped in this guy — for real — when he lost in 2020,” Biden said, suggesting the former president was “unhinged” and was the driving force behind a mob of his supporters overrunning the US Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021."
“He can’t accept the fact that he lost, it’s literally driving him crazy,” Biden said.
He added that the former president “wants to terminate the Constitution” and “says if he loses there will be a bloodbath in America.”
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Offline Grimey

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Re: Black alps vs dampened white/creams
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 10:19:51 »
I have a bit of experience with both.  I have tried ~4 different age of AT101Ws from NIB to grossely abused.  Black ALPS are okay, they are certainly more enjoyable than a rubber dome.  Black ALPS tend to be a bit on the heavy side for me and the tactile point is too muted.

I have only used dampened creams from one AEIIK, and I enjoy these switches more than the Black ALPS.  When I started my last job I was worried about keyboard noise, so a dampened set of switches sounded good, thus I transferred a set of dampened creams into a AT101W.  While noise was not an issue at my current job I still use the AT101W with dampened creams because I enjoy it that much.  The tactile point is more solid and the softened landing is easy on the fingers.  The only negative I have with the creams is the weight is still a bit higher than I would prefer (wimpy fingers), but they are certainly a prime typing experience.
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Offline Burz

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Re: Black alps vs dampened white/creams
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 17:42:08 »
I can compare my AT101W to the monterreys you sent me...

The blacks are somewhat lighter and have less friction and less tactility... the actuation point is 'rounder' and is just enough to make it feel non-linear. Break-in makes quite a difference and is the reason my Q and Z keys, for instance, feel a bit heavier than my home row keys. If I really relax while typing, I tend to bottom out much less and it is at those times when I can tell that most of the key noise comes from both the bottom and the return: it is a clacky keyboard but is about half as loud without bottoming out.

BTW I read somewhere the older AT101's have different switches (salmon not black).

Also, do you have more MiniTouches for sale?
Matias Mini QuietPro  \\ Dell AT101W - Black ALPS  \\ SIIG MiniTouch x2 White XM - Monterey  \\ Colemak layout.

Offline AKIMbO

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Re: Black alps vs dampened white/creams
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 18:13:23 »
I can compare my AT101W to the monterreys you sent me...

The blacks are somewhat lighter and have less friction and less tactility... the actuation point is 'rounder' and is just enough to make it feel non-linear. Break-in makes quite a difference and is the reason my Q and Z keys, for instance, feel a bit heavier than my home row keys. If I really relax while typing, I tend to bottom out much less and it is at those times when I can tell that most of the key noise comes from both the bottom and the return: it is a clacky keyboard but is about half as loud without bottoming out.

BTW I read somewhere the older AT101's have different switches (salmon not black).

Also, do you have more MiniTouches for sale?

No...I sold the other minitouch on ebay, but I will be selling a beige SGI keyboard soon (dampened cream alps).  It seemed like almost no one on Geekhack is interested in vintage kbs anymore besides SSKs.

I'm eyeing an old Dell on ebay right now that has salmon alps.  It's listed at $95 though which is a little too steep for me. 
« Last Edit: Sat, 13 October 2012, 18:21:41 by AKIMbO »
Mkawa Beta SSK | IBM SSK | IBM Model AT F | IBM F 122 | IBM Unsaver | LZ-GH (62g ergo clears) | HHKB Pro2 Type-S | HHKB Pro2 | Realforce 87U-Silent (55g uniform) | Leopold FC660C | Omnikey 101 (blue alps) | Kingsaver (blue alps) | Zenith ZKB2 (green alps)
| KBD75 (box reds)

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Black alps vs dampened white/creams
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 19:43:26 »
I think that the AT101 with salmon Alps for $100 is probably a good price.

I have seen them go much higher. I really like the salmon Alps but cannot seem to find a nice AEK at a reasonable price, and that is where the switches are usually found. (PS - I have 2 AEKs for sale, cheap, as a lot, but each has a couple of dead keys.)

The "old label" Dells (that is probably what it is, right?) are very desirable in Korea, or were last year.
“This isn’t the same Trump that got elected in 2016, he’s worse.”
“Something snapped in this guy — for real — when he lost in 2020,” Biden said, suggesting the former president was “unhinged” and was the driving force behind a mob of his supporters overrunning the US Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021."
“He can’t accept the fact that he lost, it’s literally driving him crazy,” Biden said.
He added that the former president “wants to terminate the Constitution” and “says if he loses there will be a bloodbath in America.”
“What kind of man is this?”  Biden asked. — June 3, 2024

Offline AKIMbO

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Re: Black alps vs dampened white/creams
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 19:46:43 »
I think that the AT101 with salmon Alps for $100 is probably a good price.

I have seen them go much higher. I really like the salmon Alps but cannot seem to find a nice AEK at a reasonable price, and that is where the switches are usually found. (PS - I have 2 AEKs for sale, cheap, as a lot, but each has a couple of dead keys.)

The "old label" Dells (that is probably what it is, right?) are very desirable in Korea, or were last year.

Oh no joke?  I can't find anything on salmon/pink alps when I google except for one DT thread saying orange>salmon and salmon is essentially analogous to black alps.  Do you concur with those comparisons?
Mkawa Beta SSK | IBM SSK | IBM Model AT F | IBM F 122 | IBM Unsaver | LZ-GH (62g ergo clears) | HHKB Pro2 Type-S | HHKB Pro2 | Realforce 87U-Silent (55g uniform) | Leopold FC660C | Omnikey 101 (blue alps) | Kingsaver (blue alps) | Zenith ZKB2 (green alps)
| KBD75 (box reds)

Offline BucklingSpring

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Re: Black alps vs dampened white/creams
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 20:11:20 »
WHY do they age so poorly? Just a bad design, or poor materials?

I suspect poor material.
Matias has revived the ALPS technology and selected polycarbonate for the switch casing. According to their early tests, they will be good for over 4M cycles.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Black alps vs dampened white/creams
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 13 October 2012, 22:12:42 »
My experience is that the AEK with pink Alps is a little firmer and a bit more tactile than the black Alps.

But, while I have used several AT101s extensively, I have never had a good AEK that I was able to use regularly.

Maybe I should start looking for something else, like the SGI, although I still respect the AEK because the build quality is very high.

However, they almost all seem to yellow badly (I do have a nice fresh-looking one that I would happily use for the keys and the case) and you have to mess with that stupid ADB, so a PS2 alternative would be nice!
“This isn’t the same Trump that got elected in 2016, he’s worse.”
“Something snapped in this guy — for real — when he lost in 2020,” Biden said, suggesting the former president was “unhinged” and was the driving force behind a mob of his supporters overrunning the US Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021."
“He can’t accept the fact that he lost, it’s literally driving him crazy,” Biden said.
He added that the former president “wants to terminate the Constitution” and “says if he loses there will be a bloodbath in America.”
“What kind of man is this?”  Biden asked. — June 3, 2024

Offline AKIMbO

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Re: Black alps vs dampened white/creams
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 16 October 2012, 22:39:36 »
I ended up getting the Dell AT101 with pink alps.  I'll update the thread with impressions once I receive it.
Mkawa Beta SSK | IBM SSK | IBM Model AT F | IBM F 122 | IBM Unsaver | LZ-GH (62g ergo clears) | HHKB Pro2 Type-S | HHKB Pro2 | Realforce 87U-Silent (55g uniform) | Leopold FC660C | Omnikey 101 (blue alps) | Kingsaver (blue alps) | Zenith ZKB2 (green alps)
| KBD75 (box reds)