Dvorak vs. Colemak

[jwaz]

That's a nice layout SMK, but why no arrows Fn + UNEI?

[samwisekoi]

That's a nice layout SWK, but why no arrows Fn + UNEI?

Why not indeed.  Updated.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[dorkvader]

Carry ur Colemak keyboard around with you so you never hafta switch back to Qwerty.

When it comes out, I'll probably use it.

Until then, I finally made a split hardware dvorak keyboard out of my two access-IS 12*6's. I will take it to work where I'm not allowed to change the keyboard layout, but I (Finally) got permission to bring in and use a keyboard.

[davkol]

Or you could use Arduino/Teensy-based converter.

[Tony]

Dvorak and Colemak are excellent alternatives of Qwerty.

Colemak moves only half (17) of the keys from Qwerty instead of 30 of Dvorak so the time you need to switch is also halved compared to Dvorak.

And zxcv remains the same make you happy to do the Copy Paste thing.

[TotalChaos]

Is z used for anything special?

I only use xcv for cut copy paste(insert)

[rknize]

Ctrl+Z is suspend in Unix.

I have been avoiding the whole layout idea for a long time because I know I have difficulty even switching between my PCs and the Macbook.  However I may give Colemak a serious try at some point...maybe when the new WASD comes out.  My technique is awful anyway, so being forced into a new layout may go well with trying to improve my typing technique since I won't be able to cheat as easily with old muscle memories.

[samwisekoi]

Ctrl+Z is suspend in Unix.

But only in a terminal session, correct?  In X11 Ctrl-Z is just the normal Undo.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[TotalChaos]

How universal is z for Undo?

How about u?

I programmed some software before that used U for undo. (I must be cRaZy

[samwisekoi]

How universal is z for Undo?

How about u?

I programmed some software before that used U for undo. (I must be cRaZy

It goes back to (at least) the Apple Human Interface Guidelines, 1987 Addison-Wesley.  See page 81, Figure 3-36.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[rknize]

If you have to undo, you're doing it wrong. 

[crthell]

You can run colemak on school computers/work computers without installing any software using autohotkey or portable keyboard layout. I put these programs on my USB drive and just run the exe files when I'm using Colemak. I actually have Dvorak too on the same portable keyboard program so that it cycles when I do ctrl+alt hotkey.

http://colemak.com/wiki/index.php?title=Windows
There's links to the portable layout and autohotkey downloads on the colemak website.

I don't actually use Dvorak anymore, however, since I found while I was trying to learn it that I prefer Colemak more, which I am in the process of learning now. I started about a month ago and I'm at around 50 wpm, while on Qwerty my average is around 95. My Qwerty speed drops noticeably if I try to switch immediately back and forth, but after some warmup, there's small speed change.

http://www.ryanheise.com/colemak/
For those of you worried about losing Qwerty speed, there's a graph of Ryan Heise's changes.

Cool!

[Eleassus]

Colemak is an easier change from QWERTY since only some of the keys places are changed, also I heard it's better than Dvorak, but I guess that's a personal opinion.

[davkol]

Colemak is an easier change from QWERTY since only some of the keys places are changed, also I heard it's better than Dvorak, but I guess that's a personal opinion.

For common English texts (layout efficiency depends on corpus, of course), Colemak is slightly better in terms of finger travel. The thing is, Dvorak and Shai went different ways to achieve comfort/efficiency: hand alternation on Dvorak, versus finger rolls on Colemak. That's matter of personal preference. For me, hand alternation is something impossible to achieve without making typos all the time.

[phetto]

qwerty

[dorkvader]

I'd like to elaborate (by request) a little on the main reason I didn't choose colemak when I switched from QWERTY.

First, let's get some things clear:
1. I don't think colemak is inferior
2. I will even agree that colemak is likely better than Dvorak. There is lots of evidence in favor of this.
3. I recommend other people to switch from QWERTY to colemak, not Dvorak.

The reason I didn't choose colemak is because it's based on QWERTY. Colemak was designed to have many letters in the same place, or on the same finger as QWERTY, which makes it easy to learn (I would imagine: I've never tried, so "ease of learning" is all second- or third-hand). This is the reason I didn't learn it. When I decided to switch, I decided that QWERTY was awful, and had a lot of issues. At the same time, I started building my philosophy/personality (That's a whole 'nother story).

I wanted to make sure everything I did was solidly grounded. Once I had a good foundation to build on, I could continue until done. I am also a non-consequentialist.

So it didn't matter to me what colemak changed from QWERTY, or how many differences there are. It didn't matter the benefits compared to Dvorak, or the other conveniences. Since it uses QWERTY as a starting point, I didn't want it. Even if all the letters were moved, it would be no good. The consequences of colemak do not justify their rotten foundation.

Now, I realize that most people are a little less inflexible in their philosophy, and, in the interest of helping them, I recommend colemak. most people don't care where a solution comes from, as long as it works. Most people are at least a little consequentialist.

[TheQsanity]

I have tried AZERTY on my phone and I can see the potential.

It feels easy and natural to find the keys.

[hoggy]

I switched to dvorak when I was in pain and my productivity was pretty much rock bottom.   I figured halving my output when it was already low made it the best time to do it.

I went for dvorak rather than Colemak for convenience as the kinesis had it built in.  I do wish I went with Colemak, as I had a terrible time with muscle memory when using shortcuts.

I think getting away from qwerty is more important than the layout you move to.

Also, learning a new layout really helped me with sorting out my hand position when typing, I spent about twenty years typing with hands resting on the desk in front of the keyboard.  Changing layouts made me think about my typing all the time.

If you are thinking of changing layouts, then I'd advise you to sort out a good selection of macros, snippets/templates - anything to get your efficiency up so you aren't quite so reliant on typing to get things done.  Then switch.

[Burz]

I'm sensing that DV makes his argument more from the position of purity and aesthetics. I do think Dvorak is a bit better to look at than Colemak, as there is no echo of Qwerty and the whole layout has this intentional look to it. But most of us who switch to alternatives end up looking at Qwerty printed on the keys anyway.

Colemak's pedigree doesn't concern me as long as it terminates with a robust analytical approach that results in efficiency and comfort. Maybe that makes me a ruthless consequentialist, but I'm getting tired of living in a culture that seeks to escape from measured reality with perplexingly more gusto as each year passes.

[Tony]

Conclusion:
- If you're typing in Qwerty, go straight to Colemak, since Colemak has more common keys with Qwerty.
- If you has switched to Dvorak, you stay put.

[RyanM]

No one uses Norman? http://normanlayout.info

[grave00]

Might want to read up.

http://reason.com/archives/1996/06/01/typing-errors/1

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/221/was-the-qwerty-keyboard-purposely-designed-to-slow-typists

I'm not sure what all the arguments are, but since fast typists type 120 and the fastest type over 200 on qwerty, I'm thinking speed isn't the best argument.  The difference would be negligible either way.

[xtn5021]

Might want to read up.

http://reason.com/archives/1996/06/01/typing-errors/1

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/221/was-the-qwerty-keyboard-purposely-designed-to-slow-typists

I'm not sure what all the arguments are, but since fast typists type 120 and the fastest type over 200 on qwerty, I'm thinking speed isn't the best argument.  The difference would be negligible either way.

I didn't switch to dvorak hoping to type faster. I originally switched because I read that it's much more efficient than QWERTY was and much more comfortable to type on. And I must tell you, that I do not regret switching to the dvorak layout. It definitely feels much more comfortable to type on than QWERTY, and that's really the only thing that matters. Oh and by the way, I believe the world's fastest typist ever was Barbara Blackburn who happened to type on the DVORAK layout as well.

[meiosis]

Does switching from Qwerty really show improvement in the long run? Or is it just a hobby? I can't imagine productive would go up much from just changing layout. How else will I type sex with one hand D:

[davkol]

Does switching from Qwerty really show improvement in the long run? Or is it just a hobby? I can't imagine productive would go up much from just changing layout.

I guess it's kinda subjective. One of the reasons why I switched was the lack of any standards for typographic and such symbols on QWERTY (and especially on Czech QWERTZ).

It took me years to get past 50 wpm on national QWERTY, I could maintain 55 wpm for a while, but it was exhausting, and I didn't progress any further. On Colemak? 55 wpm in 6 months, up to 75 wpm in two years. I can type at 55 wpm without any fatigue nowadays.

How else will I type sex with one hand D:

Mirrored layout.

[Tony]

For most practical purposes, 50 wpm is more than enough. Most of the time we just stare at the screen anyway.

By moving all the most frequent keys to the homerow, Colemak/Dvorak makes the hands move less, they bring much comfort and less tiredness while typing.

[dorkvader]

Might want to read up.

http://reason.com/archives/1996/06/01/typing-errors/1

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/221/was-the-qwerty-keyboard-purposely-designed-to-slow-typists

I'm not sure what all the arguments are, but since fast typists type 120 and the fastest type over 200 on qwerty, I'm thinking speed isn't the best argument.  The difference would be negligible either way.

I read a little bit of those articles, Very interesting! I had no idea the navy study was so... interestingly done.

Nevertheless, I have to suspect any study that rates QWERTY above dvorak because: "at least one study indicates that placing commonly used keys far apart, as with the QWERTY, actually speeds typing, since you frequently alternate hands".

Hand alternation is certainly more prevalent in Dvorak than QWERTY with almost any sample text.

Secondly, to address, the reason.com article, even if the navy study was flawed, it doesn't mean Dvorak is worse. What it does mean is that there is less reason to believe the study's claims, or more specifically that no information is gained, and one cannot base one's opinion of either layout on those results. There are some objective benefits to using dvorak, especially if one looks at hand travel, etc. How relevant those are to a person is likely a more subjective claim.

It's true, I strongly base my opinion on Dvorak on aestheic claims, as it is a more "pure layout". Since there is some evidence that it won't make me type faster, at least I can feel better about it when I am typing.

[Ellimist]

I'm a recent convert to Dvorak (~2.5 months). Previously, I could hunt-and-peck at 40-45 WPM on QWERTY, and I can now touch-type using Dvorak at the same speed. Now, all this talk about sexy hand-rolls and Dvorak being more applicable to typewriters than computer keyboards is enticing me to try Colemak out. Typing digraphs like 'th', 'ch' feels incredibly comfortable to me, so I think my brain is primed to like rolls more than hand alternations.

I really wish I had started with Colemak. If I had found this thread on GH earlier, I would have definitely gone with Colemak. Then again, I had found GH while researching Dvorak, so my reasoning might be circular.

[Tony]

@Elimist: Since you are already converted to Dvorak, there is not necessary to convert again since Colemak is only 1%-2% better than Dvorak overall. Some Dvorak users have converted to Colemak to get the benefit of the hotkeys but they are only minority.

[fohat.digs]

I keep reading threads like this, and wanting to try Colemak in particular, or even build an Ergodox, but I have a laptop and occasionally maintain computers for several other people, so the disorientation of jumping back and forth worries me. I am not young any more.

How hard is it to sit down at someone else's ANSI layout keyboard and not feel disoriented?

[dorkvader]

I keep reading threads like this, and wanting to try Colemak in particular, or even build an Ergodox, but I have a laptop and occasionally maintain computers for several other people, so the disorientation of jumping back and forth worries me. I am not young any more.

How hard is it to sit down at someone else's ANSI layout keyboard and not feel disoriented?

I dont have too much trouble, other than my usual bad accuracy. Some Gh'ers use dvorak on their ergonomic keyboards (like a kinesis) and QWERTY on their flat keyboards, which helps reinforce the difference for them. I see this as a good way of doing things. Another option is to do Dvorak standing and QWERTY sitting.

[CommunistWitchDr]

Conclusion:
- If you're typing in Qwerty, go straight to Colemak, since Colemak has more common keys with Qwerty.
- If you has switched to Dvorak, you stay put.

This doesn't cover people who currently can't touch type at all. I was like that and learned colemak. Though I'm sort of tempted to switch to QGMLWY before colemak is too ingrained. Wonder if theres a Q*MLW* layout special made for matrix boards anywhere.

[jspark]

I have switched QWERTY to Colemak via Dvorak about two years ago. I prefer Colemak more than Dvorak even though Colemak requires additional installation. The reason why I prefer Colemak more is that you can have less stress when you type on other's computer. When I work, sometimes I have to type on QWERTY for some reasons such as presentation or something. And people are not tolerant on switching key layout especially in the middle of conference. 

But why do you want to change layout? Even though I type on Colemak, it does not improve any of your performance. Rather, it actually causes inconveniences as QWERTY is dominant.

[dorkvader]

Conclusion:
- If you're typing in Qwerty, go straight to Colemak, since Colemak has more common keys with Qwerty.
- If you has switched to Dvorak, you stay put.

This doesn't cover people who currently can't touch type at all. I was like that and learned colemak. Though I'm sort of tempted to switch to QGMLWY before colemak is too ingrained. Wonder if theres a Q*MLW* layout special made for matrix boards anywhere.

If so I'd be all about that, I have several matrix keyboards. I'm considering making one that is based on good punctuation position, which is a possible issue with the q*mlw* layouts.

I guess the best bet is to make your own keyboard (Programmable) and then do your own layout based on character usage frequencies.

[Tony]

I guess the best bet is to make your own keyboard (Programmable) and then do your own layout based on character usage frequencies.

Ideally everyone will have his/her own layout which caters to his or her own finger statistics such as finger lengths and muscle strengths.

Until then, there will be endless debates to decide which is the best layout. It is funny to watch those debates since there is no best layout for everyone.

Even Colemak is only 98.034% optimized, for English language only.

[jspark]

Right. So, if possible, a programmable keyboard and customized layout is the best bet, but it costs time. You have to examine your own hands in brute force way.
I recommend modifying colemak layout for your taste, heh.

[Grim Fandango]

I would like to learn Colemak, but for the work I do, it is just inconvenient so often. I am forced to use qwerty for a large part of the day anyway.

[Tony]

I would like to learn Colemak, but for the work I do, it is just inconvenient so often. I am forced to use qwerty for a large part of the day anyway.

Being a Colemak user, I put this file in my USB to type Colemak in another Qwerty computer easily
http://www.ryanheise.com/colemak.exe

You just have to run it, after that you can type Colemak to your heart's content. You just have to remove that program when you've done.

For Dvorak, DVassist will help with the same way: run it, type in Dvorak, remove it when you have finished typing.

[jspark]

I would like to learn Colemak, but for the work I do, it is just inconvenient so often. I am forced to use qwerty for a large part of the day anyway.

Being a Colemak user, I put this file in my USB to type Colemak in another Qwerty computer easily
http://www.ryanheise.com/colemak.exe

You just have to run it, after that you can type Colemak to your heart's content. You just have to remove that program when you've done.

For Dvorak, DVassist will help with the same way: run it, type in Dvorak, remove it when you have finished typing.

Thanks Tony.
What I did so far was to download the setup file from Colemak site, install it, and change language when I was not with my custom keyboard.

[Tony]

Thanks Tony.
What I did so far was to download the setup file from Colemak site, install it, and change language when I was not with my custom keyboard.

You're welcome. At work most of our company's computers are not allowed to install anything, so the .EXE is my only solution.

[dorkvader]

Thanks Tony.
What I did so far was to download the setup file from Colemak site, install it, and change language when I was not with my custom keyboard.

You're welcome. At work most of our company's computers are not allowed to install anything, so the .EXE is my only solution.

At my work, programs and .EXE's are not allowed at all. The only option is a programmable keyboard or hardware layout converter like the (overpriced) QIDO.

[CommunistWitchDr]

A teensy layout converter exists somewhere.

My edox is my main board so I haven't looked into it.

[dorkvader]

A teensy layout converter exists somewhere.

My edox is my main board so I haven't looked into it.

Where? I'm not aware of any Teensy projects that will accept USB input. I know I can use a soarer converter to remap whatever PS2 keyboard to any layout I want, but I didn't know there was anything Teensy based for USB

[CommunistWitchDr]

A teensy layout converter exists somewhere.

My edox is my main board so I haven't looked into it.

Where? I'm not aware of any Teensy projects that will accept USB input. I know I can use a soarer converter to remap whatever PS2 keyboard to any layout I want, but I didn't know there was anything Teensy based for USB

It was either on the colemak or deskthority forum. It was a teensy and a teensy shield working together, not just the teensy.
I'll look for it when I'm at home.

[davkol]

Arduino

[knightjp]

For common English texts (layout efficiency depends on corpus, of course), Colemak is slightly better in terms of finger travel. The thing is, Dvorak and Shai went different ways to achieve comfort/efficiency: hand alternation on Dvorak, versus finger rolls on Colemak. That's matter of personal preference. For me, hand alternation is something impossible to achieve without making typos all the time.

I disagree... with Dvorak, in terms of accuracy, I was able to make better progress in a month than what I have with 6 months on colemak.
I guess for me, I never touch-typed before learning Dvorak. Personally, I found that the rolls make take a lot more getting used to in terms of accuracy.

[davkol]

For common English texts (layout efficiency depends on corpus, of course), Colemak is slightly better in terms of finger travel. The thing is, Dvorak and Shai went different ways to achieve comfort/efficiency: hand alternation on Dvorak, versus finger rolls on Colemak. That's matter of personal preference. For me, hand alternation is something impossible to achieve without making typos all the time.

I disagree... with Dvorak, in terms of accuracy, I was able to make better progress in a month than what I have with 6 months on colemak.
I guess for me, I never touch-typed before learning Dvorak. Personally, I found that the rolls make take a lot more getting used to in terms of accuracy.

What do you disagree with? The first part of my comment was based on information from the Colemak website, the second part was my personal experience.