[RIP] No More Elvish (Sindarin) Keycap Set

[samwisekoi]

samwisekoi has awakened.

I am on my tablet, so I'll be brief here and post more later.

I worked out the full cost of the SP sets made, shipped to me, checked and packed, and then shipped back out with the CHEAPEST boxed and tracked shipping available. Final cost tracked to Europe or Asia? $175 USD.

Imsto 'white' thick PBT shipped express? $85 USD.

Oh, and that gives us 104 thick PBT keycaps, including a PBT spacebar.

 I'm going to see if we can get the same pricing for white sets OR grey sets.  That would open up more mixing possibilities --- but NOT mixed sets directly.  But two Imsto sets would cost the same as one from SP!

So I'll get more info from Imsto.  I can also find out the cost of a set of green mods from SP.

Time for coffee now.  I am interested in feedback on all of the above.

 - Ron I samwisekoi

[esoomenona]

The colors have been a big draw to me about this set. It just fits with the legends. Moving to imsto's caps won't do it for me...

[Matt3o]

to me, the fact that imsto has pbt spacebars is enough to discard SP. Remember that you can't never 100% color match abs with pbt

[WhiteFireDragon]

Hmm this is a bit of a huge change, and last minute too. Same color caps across all keys are too common for PBT sets. The green mods is much unique and aesthetically pleasing to me.

If we were to go with imsto, is it possible for him to start off with green-dyed mods, then dyesube the black characters on there? This was possible with one of his blue/grey two-tone set. So instead of blue/grey, ask him for green/white.

[Jocelyn]

Well I'm certainly going to be interested in this if it's through Imsto. I like the idea of green mods, but I thought the MOQ for a new color was pretty high.

[samwisekoi]

Hmm this is a bit of a huge change, and last minute too. Same color caps across all keys are too common for PBT sets. The green mods is much unique and aesthetically pleasing to me.

If we were to go with imsto, is it possible for him to start off with green-dyed mods, then dyesube the black characters on there? This was possible with one of his blue/grey two-tone set. So instead of blue/grey, ask him for green/white.

So we haven't MADE the change, but the economics appeal. Matt3o and I worked really hard on the cream and green design, so thanks for your kind words there.

We discussed dyed mods with Imsto from the very start, and he can't promise good quality. And looking at the keycap dyeing threads it is easy to see why. And I for one am not going to do anything to damage Imsto's reputation for quality.

We want to see this set made, and wonder if we will actually get 25 people to put $140-175 on the table to make it happen.  If not, then all of this is just words.  I would like green and cream, but I would like green on white that actually got made more than imaginary green and cream.  I have to think we'd get more $85 payments than $175 payments.

So the 33 people who posted an order?  How many of YOU will pay an invoice for $140-175?  Let's see a show of hands, and if we can get over 25 payments, we can go with green and cream.

Fair?

Reply with 'I will pay $140-175.' and we'll see what happens!

 - Ron I samwisekoi

[WhiteFireDragon]

Dam $140 - $175 is a lot to stomach for a set. But that means it's already decided to go with full set instead of TKL set originally planned for? What was the base price increase going from TKL to full set with numpad?

When I said green dye for the modifiers, I meant adding the dye to one of the processes during manufacturing, not dye them after the caps have already finished. Imsto is absolutely right on quality of dying them after they've already been made. I've actually tried this with many types of dyes, and it's hard to get a good color saturation, and there will always be stress marks. Any coloring needs to happen at the time the caps are made.

[samwisekoi]

Dam $140 - $175 is a lot to stomach for a set. But that means it's already decided to go with full set instead of TKL set originally planned for? What was the base price increase going from TKL to full set with numpad?

When I said green dye for the modifiers, I meant adding the dye to one of the processes during manufacturing, not dye them after the caps have already finished. Imsto is absolutely right on quality of dying them after they've already been made. I've actually tried this with many types of dyes, and it's hard to get a good color saturation, and there will always be stress marks. Any coloring needs to happen at the time the caps are made.

The basis for the price was a TKL set of 88 dye-sub PBT caps plus 1 'matching' ABS spacebar from SP as shown in the OP.

Plus -
Shipping to me.
Packing for secure transit.
One spare set to cover missing or damaged keycaps.
CA sales tax if required.
Tracked postage (because there won't be any chance of replacement sets.)
PayPal fees on all of the above.

It came out cheapest for non-California CONUS and most expensive for Asia/Europe.

No margin, no fluff, no extras. Just enough to ensure that these irreplaceable sets would make it safely.

(Dropping intl tracking only saves $16 USD.)

So those are the numbers for a set this custom at these volumes.

Oh, and I think the MOQ for custom plastic colors from Imsto's supplier was ten thousand.  Something unattainable, anyhow.

I have no magic beans.  There is a reason that every piece of plastic in your kitchen says 'Made in China'.  Cost.

However, this is an artisan keycap set.  Are there actually 25 people who will pay the price to get them made from our choice of plastic?

Commitments to pay would be more helpful than double-checking my math.  I suppose I could just send out invoices and see where we end up, but that might just be a pointless exercise.

Who will buy?

 - Ron I samwisekoi

[Kempher]

I will pay $140-175

To clarify was this moving up to the 104 key? Or still the TKL price? I would prefer the 104 as this will be a one time GB unlike many others where they get done many times over the years.

[samwisekoi]

I will pay $140-175

To clarify was this moving up to the 104 key? Or still the TKL price? I would prefer the 104 as this will be a one time GB unlike many others where they get done many times over the years.

TKL.

[merijn]

How long will the orders be open? What will the ESC key say?

[samwisekoi]

How long will the orders be open? What will the ESC key say?

SP? We'll close orders now.  Imsto? Two weeks from firm pricing.

The escape key will say 'Escape' translated into Sindarin.

 - Ron I samwisekoi

[Halverson]

I'll stick with it at $140-$170....if shipping to Canada is a lot, I'll just send them to a US proxy till a later date.

If we go imsto, I'm out. I'm not in this set for only unique legends, it's as equally about the colour.

[eRadicatedZomBiE]

I'm out if its 140-170 (if that is going to be the final amount) to high for me. 

[esoomenona]

I will pay the $140-175. I would be willing to pay that much for an imsto set, but only if it aesthetically pleasing as it is now. If its just plain white, I will have to drop out and not pay anything... sorry.

[Halverson]

Can we get a poll going maybe? Messages about prices to people signed up, and see who would stay for the price, who would leave for imsto/stay for imsto. And see how much more interest imsto would gather? I guess it is kind of late to be doing this...but if enough drop out because of price...we'll have to go this route it seems.

[WhiteFireDragon]

I will be willing to pay $150 and not care if it's made by imsto or SP, as long as it's the two tone white/green like how it is now. If it's from imsto and all white, I'm out too. But I imagine some international guys will drop out if it's from SP, because it's a 60% price increase for them compared to what was listed in the OP. $175 is A LOT for them.

[samwisekoi]

I will be willing to pay $150 and not care if it's made by imsto or SP, as long as it's the two tone white/green like how it is now. If it's from imsto and all white, I'm out too. But I imagine some international guys will drop out if it's from SP, because it's a 60% price increase for them compared to what was listed in the OP. $175 is A LOT for them.

Yes, this didn't make me very happy when I ran the numbers.  As of now, anything thicker than .75" (19mm) has to be shipped as a package.

If there is a way to ship them in bulk to a proxy in a European county with better postage prices, I am all for that!  Then I can air-freight a big box via UPS for more like $5 per set.  (That is a guess.)

Anyone up for being the Euro-elven-proxy?

Also, anyone in Singapore?

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[WhiteFireDragon]

And just a suggestion to cut a good amount off total cost: SP and you are in California, almost certain they will charge tax unless you have a reseller permit. It's not really fair for everyone to pay the California tax when only the organizer is receiving in CA. So maybe you can have it shipped to someone on GH from another state, and have it reshipped back to you right away to avoid the tax. CA tax is about 9%, so you saved over $300 just by doing that.

Amazon payment is another option to avoid 3-4% paypal fees. Works exactly the same as paypal, but there are zero fees. So if all the savings were split up by 32 sets ordered, you slash off about $15 from every set without compromise to shipping/tracking or dropping that extra spare set. I'm just hoping no more than 7 people will drop out from the high prices, because then we can't have the GB at all.

[merijn]

The costs of importing should also be calculated in, individual orders might slip through customs without paying anything extra but once there is a bulk shipment expect it to need to be paid. (which is 15-21% off the top of my head, Luxembourg being the "cheapest")

[jdcarpe]

I'm still in at $140.

[asura]

And I'd be out.  But in for imsto's.

[Tarzan]

I'm out. 

I'd be in at the $150-$175 price point for a 104-key set, but that price for 87 keys?  No.

I'm not interested in Imsto's all-white PBT set at all.  No pearl/green?  No green modifiers?  Then it's just another Russian/Hangul/Raindrop/etc. set.   

[Matt3o]

I'm not sure an EU proxy would make the price lower. there are import taxes + shipping to each doorsteps.

[weasle425]

i'm in at $140, the green on cream is the appeal for me so if we go all whites i'm out

[stoic-lemon]

Lord help me ...

I'm in for.... I can't even bring myself to type it.....

$175 delivered to Japan.

[samwisekoi]

Men and Elves:

Thank you all for your input.  It is clear we don't have a consensus, or at least one that Matt3o and I can implement to everybody's satisfaction.

We really want to get these keycaps made "properly" and shipped globally for a "reasonable" cost.  How and what that means exactly is something we need to go ponder.

I am officially announcing a pause in this GB so we can find a way to solve the above quandary.    We are happy to listen to concrete suggestions, and will be back to you all.

The order form will stay up, and if you are interested in a set, please order one.

Man will prevail in the end, even after the Elves leave for the West.  And so will this keycap set.

 - samwisekoi & Matt3o

[esoomenona]

So I've changed mind. I would buy the set if you made it through imsto, but only for a couple reasons, and only on one condition.

Reasoning: I love Cherry profile PBT caps and I want to help you make this set a reality, which leads me to my condition.

Condition: I want to know whether you two feel that it is a well enough compromise to make to see this set made and in peoples hands, even if the quality (IMO, which was based in the nice color scheme, making it a unique set) has lessened. If so, then count me in.

[WhiteFireDragon]

I am officially announcing a pause in this GB so we can find a way to solve the above quandary.    We are happy to listen to concrete suggestions, and will be back to you all.

NOOOooo.....

Main deciding factor is price. So now I'm curious about the markup from the base price. Other GB are also from SP but final out the door price is not a $30-$65 increase. Can you post the breakdown and how you calculated it to be $140 cheapest and max $175. Here's what I came up with and it's overestimating:

Base TKL $110
shipping from SP to friend- $2 (~$60 split into 32 sets)
shipping from friend to you - $1 (~$30 split into 32 sets)
shipping from you to us - $6 USPS priority, $16 - $24 international

total: $119 CONUS, $129 - $137 international.

What accounts for the rest, especially international? If you decide to charge paypal fees, that's only 3% higher, but it could be avoided with my previous suggestion on using amazon payment. If there are any damaged or missing keys when SP ships, that's on them, not us. And when shipping from you to us, I think you should people the option which method of shipping and put a disclaimer that you're not responsible for damages once it leaves your hands. It'll be up to us to pay for insurance or not. I think this will cut costs down to a reasonable level instead of forcing everyone to chip in for that extra set and pay for insurance.

[megnin]

I'm still in at $140.00-$175.00 but only if:

Mods are green
There's an extra white/pearl/cream `~ and \| key
The set looks amazing

[samwisekoi]

OK, I really wanted to move past this, but since you asked so nicely...

#1  Fees for Checkout by Amazon and Amazon Simple Pay
Transactions greater than or equal to $10.00    2.9% + $0.30 per transaction (volume discounts available)
Transactions less than or equal to $9.99    5.0% + $0.05 per transaction
International Credit Card    3.9% of transaction value + $0.30 (exactly equal to PayPal)
Source: https://payments.amazon.com/sdui/sdui/helpTab/Checkout-by-Amazon/Creating-Managing-Your-Account/Amazon-Payments-Fees?ld=PPCUSCBASSRAPS2

Not saving much there.

#2 Costing Breakdown
First, let me note that I have not, repeat not, posted actual costs for shipped keysets.  I posted a range of costs as soon as I had them because I did not want to generate fear, uncertainly or doubt.  I guess that was a fail, but nevertheless good feedback was generated.

Also, FYI, we had always wanted to do thick PBT, but couldn't find a way to do that and get the green/cream we wanted.

But for 25 sets of 89 keycaps, here are the numbers I used:

109.15   Raw Plastic
4.37   1/25th of a single extra set for replacement keycaps, since there is no way SP is going to re-run this order.
2.00   Estimated pro-rated shipping to me based on $50 for freight.  Retro DSA was $310.00 actual cost for SP to ship to me.
2.00   Estimated cost of packing material sufficient to ensure this one-of-a-kind set arrives safely.
4.88   PayPal
----------------------------------------
122.40   Packed for shipment in Mt. View, CA, USA.

(Plus sales tax if you live in California.  Sorry, but that is another $11.45 if you live in the Golden State.)

So anyone who wants to pick up a set at my office can do so.  As on Retro DSA, my offer to anyone who wants to come help sort and pack is that they are welcome to do so and skip the cost of shipping.

#3 Shipping Costs
Because these keycaps are quite special, and probably not replaceable, I wanted to be able to track shipments from my door to yours.  Also, my experience shipping to Europe via USPS First Class was that packages can take 3-6 weeks to arrive.  So I didn't include non-priority or non-tracked choices, but they do exist.  Below are the lowest cost tracked shipping options I could find.  Note:  USPS Priority Mail only provides tracking within the US.  It is a $23 add-on for tracking anywhere else.

US: $5.80 (Priority Mail)
Canada: $32.59 (Priority Mail plus tracking)
International: $48.00 (Priority Mail plus tracking)
Prices above are shown without the 3.9% PayPal fee.


#4 Actual Totals
So when I do the actual math, I come up with the following:

US (non-California)   128.43
California   139.41
Canada (priority untracked)   143.13
Canada (tracked)   156.26
Intl (priority untracked)   147.28
Intl (tracked)   172.27


Oh and...

I'm still in at $140.00-$175.00 but only if:

Mods are green
There's an extra white/pearl/cream `~ and \| key
The set looks amazing

All of this is true in the above scenario.

Does that answer all of the questions about math?

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[Matt3o]

I still don't believe you! Show me more math!  )

[jdcarpe]

Maths are fun

[cytoSiN]

Sorry I've missed all the traffic here in the last couple of days (had a busy weekend).

I'd pay "US (non-California)   128.43" for the set as originally (or at least most currently) planned from SP.  I'd also volunteer to receive the initial shipment from SP to save you the tax, and ship it back to you, but I'm in NY so that may not be the most efficient.  If we lose the green mods I *may* be out, but I still love the idea so I'd have to consider it.

[jdcarpe]

I don't think there is any issue with paying sales tax to SP, as they are in WA and Ron is in CA. The only place where tax plays a factor is when the end purchaser is also in CA, then Ron would have to collect sales tax from those buyers when he sells them a set.

[esoomenona]

Also, as long as the spacebars are in ABS, can we get additional spacebars to order?

[cytoSiN]

I don't think there is any issue with paying sales tax to SP, as they are in WA and Ron is in CA. The only place where tax plays a factor is when the end purchaser is also in CA, then Ron would have to collect sales tax from those buyers when he sells them a set.

Ah, gotcha.  Thought I saw someone post above that both are in CA.

[dorkvader]

I'd be completely happy with imsto PBT, which I very much enjoy. If we can get green modifiers from him, so much the better. If not, maybe I'll try dying them myself.

[blueasjim]

Any definite costs yet? I am interested but depends on cost.
Thanks

[Mad_Doktor]

Hello everyone!

Is this group buy still going? The first post was last updated on March 23, 2013 but the Google form supposedly closed in January... It looks like this Group Buy is still going but paused to solve some cost related and key cap customization issues? Either way, I'm all in!

I'm also a bit of a n00b as far as GeekHack group buys and keyboard modding is concerned so if I screwed up, I apologize in advance.

Otherwise, I am super excited for this group buy!

MD

[dorkvader]

Hello everyone!

Is this group buy still going? The first post was last updated on March 23, 2013 but the Google form supposedly closed in January... It looks like this Group Buy is still going but paused to solve some cost related and key cap customization issues? Either way, I'm all in!

I'm also a bit of a n00b as far as GeekHack group buys and keyboard modding is concerned so if I screwed up, I apologize in advance.

Otherwise, I am super excited for this group buy!

MD

Welcome to Geekhack! This is going to be an excellent group buy once everything's sorted out.

[findingthelimit]

Hello everyone!

Is this group buy still going? The first post was last updated on March 23, 2013 but the Google form supposedly closed in January... It looks like this Group Buy is still going but paused to solve some cost related and key cap customization issues? Either way, I'm all in!

I'm also a bit of a n00b as far as GeekHack group buys and keyboard modding is concerned so if I screwed up, I apologize in advance.

Otherwise, I am super excited for this group buy!

MD

Welcome to Geekhack! This is going to be an excellent group buy once everything's sorted out.

I'm new to group buys as well, and i'm also wondering...
when this is sorted out and we pay the fees, how much longer would it take for us to actually receive the keycaps? it seems like after we pay the money, we then have to wait for them to manufacture, ship, check, and re-ship... how long is this process?

[cobraj]

Hello everyone!

Is this group buy still going? The first post was last updated on March 23, 2013 but the Google form supposedly closed in January... It looks like this Group Buy is still going but paused to solve some cost related and key cap customization issues? Either way, I'm all in!

I'm also a bit of a n00b as far as GeekHack group buys and keyboard modding is concerned so if I screwed up, I apologize in advance.

Otherwise, I am super excited for this group buy!

MD

Welcome to Geekhack! This is going to be an excellent group buy once everything's sorted out.

I'm new to group buys as well, and i'm also wondering...
when this is sorted out and we pay the fees, how much longer would it take for us to actually receive the keycaps? it seems like after we pay the money, we then have to wait for them to manufacture, ship, check, and re-ship... how long is this process?

few months or so?

[Mad_Doktor]

Hello everyone!

Is this group buy still going? The first post was last updated on March 23, 2013 but the Google form supposedly closed in January... It looks like this Group Buy is still going but paused to solve some cost related and key cap customization issues? Either way, I'm all in!

I'm also a bit of a n00b as far as GeekHack group buys and keyboard modding is concerned so if I screwed up, I apologize in advance.

Otherwise, I am super excited for this group buy!

MD

Welcome to Geekhack! This is going to be an excellent group buy once everything's sorted out.

I'm new to group buys as well, and i'm also wondering...
when this is sorted out and we pay the fees, how much longer would it take for us to actually receive the keycaps? it seems like after we pay the money, we then have to wait for them to manufacture, ship, check, and re-ship... how long is this process?

According to some "Welcome to the forum" threads, group buys take a few months and browsing through a few closed group buys, there are some that are shorter in length but it seems that # of users. interest level, and finalized designs play a big role in determining the time.

That being said, a lot of these group buys seem to be organized by regular folks with huge interest and not too much experience or contacts so there's a bit of a learning curve? Mad props since I would never think to this myself

MD

[Magnusian]

I'm okay with the shipping to Canada, though I do kinda wish more people would hop on this buy.

[esoomenona]

I just hoped we could get it up to 50 orders. A good $14 drop.

[findingthelimit]

i'm not too annoyed by the price... but the fact that it takes so much hassle and time for these caps to ship is discouraging

[cobraj]

i'm not too annoyed by the price... but the fact that it takes so much hassle and time for these caps to ship is discouraging

Welcome to Group Buys haha

[Matt3o]

i'm not too annoyed by the price... but the fact that it takes so much hassle and time for these caps to ship is discouraging

you make it sound like we are making a profit out of it.

[findingthelimit]

i'm not too annoyed by the price... but the fact that it takes so much hassle and time for these caps to ship is discouraging

you make it sound like we are making a profit out of it.

then you read/interpreted it wrong, because i didn't.