[IC] GMK sets interest check and planning

[bueller]

BTW Ivan - can we get F1-F4 & F9-F12 in alpha colors as well?

[IvanIvanovich]

No, I am putting an end to that wrongness. Function keys are not alphas, so they aren't going to be alpha colors unless the entire keyset is one base color.

Thanks for taking the photos flynn.

[LechnerDE]

BTW Ivan - can we get F1-F4 & F9-F12 in alpha colors as well?

I would prefer that too and I don't see any "wrongness", 'cause that's the way Cherry did it as well.

But that's your decision of course

[whiskytango]

I agree with Ivan. Never liked the function row to be two different colors. Good man, righting the wrongs.

[JonasDK]

Anyone know when this GB will launch?

[LechnerDE]

Anyone know when this GB will launch?

Yeah, Ivan does

[IvanIvanovich]

I do? ) I'm still waiting for the final everything is good to go from GMK. As soon as I have it I will get it rolling. I imagine it should start within this month at least...

[aj-kun]

I do? ) I'm still waiting for the final everything is good to go from GMK. As soon as I have it I will get it rolling. I imagine it should start within this month at least...

!!!

[inlikeflynn]

No, I am putting an end to that wrongness. Function keys are not alphas, so they aren't going to be alpha colors unless the entire keyset is one base color.

Thanks for taking the photos flynn.

do you want me to take a new picture with all white-on-black Function keys then to better match what you are going to offer?

[LechnerDE]

I can't speak for Ivan, but I think this would be very helpful 

[Latin00032]

I can't speak for Ivan, but I think this would be very helpful 

ditto.

[biochem]

No, I am putting an end to that wrongness. Function keys are not alphas, so they aren't going to be alpha colors unless the entire keyset is one base color.

Totally agree!  For me this is the main appeal of the original WYSE keycaps.

[inlikeflynn]

ok another picture with all of the function keys as white-on-black like Ivan is doing and in a white wNv case this time as that looks better

[bueller]

Noooo. Looked better before!

[Elrick]

I imagine it should start within this month at least...

Brilliant, looking forward to finally seeing the complete set and extras being offered by you (on behalf of GMK).

Please make sure they are happy in being able to make all the keys that will be specified, otherwise it'll get awkward  .

[Acanthophis]

Well, no harm in having the F1-F4 and F9-F12 in the lighter grey for those who want it this way? 8 additional keycaps, no biggie, right? RIGHT?!

[bueller]

Well, no harm in having the F1-F4 and F9-F12 in the lighter grey for those who want it this way? 8 additional keycaps, no biggie, right? RIGHT?!

That's what I think. We're including a shed-load of keycaps for other languages but not covering the original color layout done by Cherry? Seems kinda backwards to me.

[Halvar]

Additionally: say I have an existing two-tone set (e.g. from Cherry, Dolch, SP, Imsto or whatever), and I'd like to combine its second-color keys with the alpha set from this GB. Then I can't do that because the F-Keys are missing?

Even though the idea to "right a wrong" is basically well-grounded IMO, I think with modular GBs it still makes sense to support the standard, too.

[LechnerDE]

Additionally: say I have an existing two-tone set (e.g. from Cherry, Dolch, SP, Imsto or whatever), and I'd like to combine its second-color keys with the alpha set from this GB. Then I can't do that because the F-Keys are missing?

That's a very good point! I also think there is no harm in offering both

[SeriouSSpotS]

I also think there is no harm in offering both

+1

[Jmneuv]

Love the packs setup! ..although i better don't want to know the price;
I would have much preferred the whole affair in mono-tone though.. i might just match a base set with beige mods

[Halvar]

i might just match a base set with beige mods

See -- you can't, because currently it seems that you won't get function keys F1-F4 and F-F12 with the base set, and you also won't have those in your beige modifiers.

There's a kind of vendor lock-in kicking in here (unintentionally I assume): you cannot combine Ivan's alpha set with sets from other sources unless their function key row has only one key color. 

[gojira54]

I think the grey alphas will look amazing with the previous purple mods.
Too bad there won't be a purple nav pack - loving the stuff from the previous GB

[tonyl0822]

in

[IvanIvanovich]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the argument in this case. I don't imagine many people pairing these up with other than white/black, Dolch or SkiData. There really is not much else that is common enough that it will be a major consideration to match up with right now. Later when we do black on color or color on white keys I may reconsider the Fkeys as that will be more of a consideration on matching with the most common black on white/beige sets.

[bueller]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the argument in this case. I don't imagine many people pairing these up with other than white/black, Dolch or SkiData. There really is not much else that is common enough that it will be a major consideration to match up with right now. Later when we do black on color or color on white keys I may reconsider the Fkeys as that will be more of a consideration on matching with the most common black on white/beige sets.

It's just you  )

I'm in either way though, have just always preferred a two tone function row.

[Halvar]

To summarize the argument:

You can't combine the planned alpha set with the rest of

1) Cherry black on beige, which is highly abundant in Europe and does fit white-on-grey,
2) Dolch, creating a full set of white on dark gray isn't possible
3) maybe future GMK sets

And there seem to be people who just like the mixed-colored function row better. No idea how many.

[LechnerDE]

And there seem to be people whole just like the mixed-colored function row better. No idea how many.

I am one of them. I wouldn't mind paying a little extra to get both options

[Moosecraft]

And there seem to be people whole just like the mixed-colored function row better. No idea how many.

I am one of them. I wouldn't mind paying a little extra to get both options

So am I.

[korrelate]

Me too. I don't mind admitting that I am decidedly not a touch typist. Nor do I have any intention of pursuing the skill at that level. The contrast provided by by the differing colors helps me find stuff faster.

And I just happen to like the look better. I'm not faulting people who like single color layouts, that's your taste. My taste favors two-tone layouts.

[Dubsgalore]

Will there be no ISO for this?

[LechnerDE]

Will there be no ISO for this?

All ISO keys are included in the Mod Pack - look again

[rindorbrot]

More options = more better! My vote is also for including dual tone function row

[Dubsgalore]

Will there be no ISO for this?

All ISO keys are included in the Mod Pack - look again

oh oh
didn't see it thanks

[IvanIvanovich]

How about a compromise then, with 8 more blank E row keys in the ALPHA set since that could be a lot more versatile? You could make color alternating F row, or other things that way.

No ISO? Wouldn't that be funny, with all those European languages. Perhaps another thing I can resolve, the destruction of ISO 

[Elrick]

Me too. I don't mind admitting that I am decidedly not a touch typist. Nor do I have any intention of pursuing the skill at that level. The contrast provided by by the differing colors helps me find stuff faster.

And I just happen to like the look better. I'm not faulting people who like single color layouts, that's your taste. My taste favors two-tone layouts.

Same here.  Have no need to type fast just need to be able to find certain keys late at night or early monring.

[bueller]

I'd prefer legends as I think it would look weird having only F5-F8 with them.

[korrelate]

How about a compromise then, with 8 more blank E row keys in the ALPHA set since that could be a lot more versatile? You could make color alternating F row, or other things that way.

No ISO? Wouldn't that be funny, with all those European languages. Perhaps another thing I can resolve, the destruction of ISO 

I am totally too stupid to use blank keys as proxies for F keys. Totally. I mean silly stupid. I'm silly, I tell ya, silly stupid.

[Elrick]

I am totally too stupid to use blank keys as proxies for F keys. Totally. I mean silly stupid. I'm silly, I tell ya, silly stupid.

I don't think you would be alone there.  We should open a new City called "Stupidville", because it would be full of us who have never mastered (or bothered) to use blank keys.

[korrelate]

Sounds like a Zen paradise, Elrick: a Zen paradise.

[LechnerDE]

I'd prefer legends as I think it would look weird having only F5-F8 with them.

Yeah, I totally agree. It just destroys the symmetry of the set. The human eye immediately spots those minor differences in patterns and it would drive me crazy 

I mean I don't look at my keyboard while typing anyway, but I know it would annoy me everytime I glance at the blank F-Keys. Remember when the Shift-Key legends on the first GMK Modifier GB were slightly misplaced? It was a very minor thing, but you corrected it because it would look odd.

I think it's the same with the F-Keys: Either do proper legends or don't offer additional keys at all. The only reason I buy keycap sets is to have a nice color compostion on my desk. It's like a little piece of art to me and I think it would be wrong to save a couple of bucks by skipping legends.

@ Ivan

I hope you get this as constructive criticism. I know how much effort you put into all your GBs and still people like me are nitpicking about your decisions. I really appreciate all you hard work!

Having said that: I will buy a complete set no matter what you decide to offer

[Broadmonkey]

... and I think it would be wrong to save a couple of bucks by skipping legends.

The problem with that argument is that we're already at 235 keys just to outfit a keyboard with eg. a german layout. 181 if you only want support for 60%. I am very curious as to what the price for all this will be... and If I can afford 2 sets

[LechnerDE]

... and I think it would be wrong to save a couple of bucks by skipping legends.

The problem with that argument is that we're already at 235 keys just to outfit a keyboard with eg. a german layout. 181 if you only want support for 60%. I am very curious as to what the price for all this will be... and If I can afford 2 sets

I am curious about the price as well. But if you pay a lot of money you want to have exactly what you want, otherwise people might not invest at all.

I just realized there are no "insert", "home", etc. keys but only symbols in the Nav Pack. I have to say I don't like that too much and have never seen a Cherry Board with those legends. Can anybody post a real life picture of a board with those symbols please?

[Halvar]

I just realized there are no "insert", "home", etc. keys but only symbols in the Nav Pack. I have to say I don't like that too much and have never seen a Cherry Board with those legends. Can anybody post a real life picture of a board with those symbols please?

Thanks, I hadn't seen that either. Home/End and PgUp/PgDn legends look very nice to me, here's a vintage board with these symbols:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/G80-2100

However, Insert and Delete look wrong to me, could GMK not find the real ones?

The symbol on the Delete key is a backspace symbol ( http://www.decodeunicode.org/u+232B ). The Delete symbol would be pointing right: http://www.decodeunicode.org/en/u+2326 or a special symbol showing a struckout 'a'.

The current symbol on the Insert key actually means something like "go to the end". The "insert" symbol would be this: http://www.decodeunicode.org/de/u+2380

Here's an old Cherry keyboard with proper Insert and Delete symbols:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/G80-2510

IBM  keyboards with Insert and Delete symbols:
http://www.9999hp.net/keyboard/temp/

7bit's Round 4 noir set:
http://deskthority.net/w/images/7/73/NOIR_TKLSYM.png

[korrelate]

LechnerDE has a great point. I've totally forgotten to mention how much I appreciate all the work that goes into something like this. I know my feedback must sound like a lot of whining, but please understand that I provide it, not to carp, but to participate: because this is a place where I "can" have an opinion about something most people "can't" be bothered with. And I hope, as it's been my intent, that the opinions I've expressed sound as fun and sportsmanlike as I've intended them(even though this opinion is biased by my tastes).

I think it's amazing that you've traveled down so many paths to try and satisfy the greatest number of people that you can. The packs you've composed are all have very sound boundaries, and I'm sure I wouldn't have been able to do nearly as good a job as you have done.

Thanks LechnerDE for reminding me "notice the good stuff that's happeningm"

And Thanks, Ivan, for the time and energy put into this.

[agor]

Monday afternoon here in good ol' germany. I hope GMK answered all remaining questions

[bueller]

I actually don't mind the symbols in the del/ins section as standard ones are easy as hell to come by in black so it's nice to have a change.

Totally agree with what everyone else has said, hopefully my suggestions don't come across as nitpicky because I appreciate the hell out of all your efforts!

[mauri]

I guess I'll just have to sell my other kidney to scrape up the money for this one

[IvanIvanovich]

The symbols only NAV were chosen to be international neutral, and also match more with the MODS style.
Interesting, I wonder if those legends on the 2**0 are pad printed. I am sure GMK will want to kill me, I have little doubt we are one of most demanding customers. I will ask about those and look into making some of these revisions you are asking for.
While I haven't gotten final pricing yet, an older estimate I think these will be around $45-$55 each for BASE, MOD and NAV $40-55 for one of language pack.

[Halvar]

Ivan, I love you (not only) for your patience with us! 

Maybe we should wait for at least one second voice on the Insert/Delete legends? If I'm the only one who is put off by these you should probably not bother. I would buy anyway and I would probably just use Ins and Del from another b-o-w set, following bueller's advice.

So, fellow prospective buyers, what do you think?